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redsaber
Acolyte
Canada
5 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 19:45:36
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Hi everyone,
I don't post quite often here (even though I read it much), but I still appreciate a lot all the knowledge and lore you guys have acquired and I must say that I use it very often.
I've been playing in the realms for more then a decade now and I have to admit that I'm completely and utterly disgusted by the new version of it by Hasbro.
So my question goes like this... Would it be possible to have a new version of the realms (still 100 years later) but remade by Candlekeep's scribes?
I'm sure that retarded "returned abeir" and all that crap would be left out, so that hardcore fans like me would finally enjoy playing in that "new 4th ed. realms".
What do you guys think?
PS: I know some of you will tell me "Well you can still play in 3.5 FR", but that's not the point of my question. ;)
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Patrakis
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 19:49:57
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| I don't think that would be legal, depending if you want to keep it Fanon. Another complete version of the realms is far from a little project though. |
Dancing is like standing still, but faster.
My site: http://www.patoumonde.com |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 20:30:37
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| I don't think it would be a complete version of the realms. More of keeping the Realms as they are up to when the Spellplague hits, then moving forward from that with Shar and Cyric's deicide being a failure. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 21:08:00
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| I do not think that it would be a good thing for Candlekeep to do, since it could damage their relationship with WotC. However, if a group of us designed our own website where we crafted alternate lore for 1376+, then that would probably work. Also, as long as we did not try to sell or otherwise publish it, we could probably get away with it. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 21:18:24
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| redsaber wants a world that matches the 4E rules; Ashe would keep some of the events of 1385 DR. I've seen several other permutations of future Realms put forward. The first hurdle is to find a group that agrees to all these things; if you can do that and get the work done, I don't see why Candlekeep wouldn't host it. |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 21:39:10
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quote:
Originally posted by redsaber
I'm sure that retarded "returned abeir" and all that crap would be left out...
Stay classy, redsaber! |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 23:11:21
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True... "Ill-conceived" would have been the more 'PC' way of putting it. 
redsaber was really insulting the mentally challenged with that comparison. I'm fairly sure they could have come up with something MUCH better, if given the opportunity. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Amarel Derakanor
Seeker
97 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 23:27:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
True... "Ill-conceived" would have been the more 'PC' way of putting it.
redsaber was really insulting the mentally challenged with that comparison. I'm fairly sure they could have come up with something MUCH better, if given the opportunity.
I agree. They clearly show off their skill with the new Realms, as creating something so utterly "ill-concieved" requires great skill.
I mean, it is as if they have tried hard to come up with illogical and unwanted "lore".
I am actually serious, unfortunately. |
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redsaber
Acolyte
Canada
5 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 23:33:46
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I'm sorry... I didn't meant to insult anyone.
But as you guys might know already, this situation is very annoying for players, GMs and all the people that bought all of the previous stuff (settings, books, compendiums and etc.) that are now worth nothing really in some regions of FR.
The whole setting just took a whole new turn and it annoys me to see it gone insane because I've put a lot of time, effort AND money into it.
I didn't meant to insult anyone, just let people know of my situation and my support for what you guys here are saying ;)
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 01:10:20
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| Indeed. That's quite enough of that particular aspect of this discussion. Fellow scribes, please, recall what I've said several times before. Though you may have your problems with some of the decisions made by FR designers with respect to 4e FR, that doesn't mean you can insult their capability and efforts by making such comparisons. Positive constructive criticism is fine. But what I'm reading here is particularly harsh and uncivilised, and not at all what Candlekeep is about. Please refrain from making such comments in the future. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 01:12:53
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| Thanks, Sage. |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 01:48:25
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If you're talking about doing something constructive with the 4E Realms, count me in. I've been trying to figure out how to add back some of the "Realms magic" to the FRCG, but I'm at a loss as to where to begin.
The 100 years time advance, with the paucity of actual history of the events that took place during that time combined with the massive changes in geography and the even more massive loss of dieties has scrubbed the Realms of most of what I enjoyed about them. The combination has left the Realms missing most of it's flavor and I'd like to add it back in, so that new Realms fans can enjoy the world that I'v loved for 20+ years.
I'm open to suggestions on where to begin. Any thoughts?
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"Over the Mountains
Of the Moon
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride,"
The shade replied,
"If you seek for Eldorado!"
Edgar Allen Poe - 1849 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 03:57:26
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I've been tinkering with a couple of plot ideas... Both of them disregard the Sellplague, but one of them does follow one of the stated goals of that event: getting rid of the so-called good-aligned Mystra (though replacing her), and reducing the number of her Chosen (mainly to explore ways to effect the "necessary changes" without a controversial event). Another idea, recently spawned by a thread here, was that instead of having Thay pull back and the Red Wal-Marts become just loosely affiliated merchants, I'd have the Thayan civil war result in Red Wizards in exile (the Red Wal-Marts, now based out of Mulmaster) and the loyalist Red Wizards in Thay.
I am quite opposed to doing any Candlekeep "official" version of the Realms. That's just asking for trouble from WotC. And even if it wasn't, there are two many differing opinions on what the Realms should be. Myself, I'm convinced we need to reset to right before 3E came out, and only include some of the 3E events -- certainly not all of them. Others have called for going back to the Old Grey Box, and still others have called for just ignoring the post-1375 bits from Brian's Grand History.
Individuals can certainly do what they wish, and post alternate versions of the Realms if they wish. But those alternate versions will be their own, and cannot receive official sanction from this site. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 02 Sep 2008 04:04:28 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 04:20:20
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I think you guys are wasting valuable energy. Just play in the pre-Spellplague Realms guys. Pure and simple. There's tons of 3.X FR sourcebooks to draw from and previous 2E stuff (I still use my Volo's Guide to XXX before every game!), and if you run out of published FR adventures, and do not feel like making your own stuff, buy Pathfinder and say it's on that unknown continent east of Kara-Tur.
I'm sorry, but I lost all illusions that a group/candlekeep project would achieve anything but wasting one's time, which could be used to actually GAME in the Realms!  |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 09:10:12
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quote:
Originally posted by redsaber
Would it be possible to have a new version of the realms (still 100 years later) but remade by Candlekeep's scribes?
so that hardcore fans like me would finally enjoy playing in that "new 4th ed. realms".
Several of us have suggested ways to take into account the latest version of the Forgotten Realms Setting. One suggestion is that the latest setting details Counter Toril, a world that resembles Toril in many aspects but has changed significantly.
Another suggestion is to not jump forward 100 years and see how the new rules fit in to the current setting.
I don't think Candlekeep should set up a version to rival WotC, after all that seems to be Paizo's job.  I see Candlekeep as being foremost a repository of Lore and that means all official material must be acquired, documented, discussed and placed on its appropriate shelf. After that, I think Candlekeep should be able to discuss variants and personal solutions/versions.
However, it may be very tricky getting us all to agree. Some of us are quite opinionated.
I like the idea of working on a new version of the Realms, after all DM's all over the world take the Realms and make them in their image. However, Candlekeep should remain neutral. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
Edited by - Kiaransalyn on 02 Sep 2008 09:10:59 |
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RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 13:23:16
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" I do not think that it would be a good thing for Candlekeep to do, since it could damage their relationship with WotC."
They have a relationship? As in, "we'll disregard everything your members warned in advance they'll have a problem with?" |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 13:31:16
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quote:
Originally posted by RodOdom
" I do not think that it would be a good thing for Candlekeep to do, since it could damage their relationship with WotC."
They have a relationship? As in, "we'll disregard everything your members warned in advance they'll have a problem with?"
Relationship as in, we are a fan site and thus operate at the sufferance of WotC. They don't have to allow us to operate so freely. I think they could shut us down if they wanted, and I'm certain that they could at the least impose severe limitations on us. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 14:24:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by RodOdom
" I do not think that it would be a good thing for Candlekeep to do, since it could damage their relationship with WotC."
They have a relationship? As in, "we'll disregard everything your members warned in advance they'll have a problem with?"
Relationship as in, we are a fan site and thus operate at the sufferance of WotC. They don't have to allow us to operate so freely. I think they could shut us down if they wanted, and I'm certain that they could at the least impose severe limitations on us.
It's also important to note that we still don't know how WotC's new fansite policy will work. So attempting something like this will likely be extremely difficult to qualify in terms of legality once the policy is established. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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StarBog
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 14:42:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
Another suggestion is to not jump forward 100 years and see how the new rules fit in to the current setting.
Otherwise known as the Eberron solution. That, I think, is probably the best way of approaching things. Its certainly the path of least resistance. |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 15:52:28
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One idea might be to collect all the official lore up to around 1374 DR, ending with the Last Mythal trilogy, and just ignoring anything afterwards, like the Lady Penitent stuff. Then we advance it a few years, to 1376, so the fall out from the big military campaigns can stop, the world can take a breather and things start slowing down again.
I've been thinking myself about doing something along those lines. Stopping the RSE's and giving people plenty of adventure hooks. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 16:02:55
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| I agree with Uzzy. As much as I like the Cormyr/Shadowdale/Anauroch adventure trilogy, each has the potential for an RSE. And, I got tired of RSE's after Death of a Dragon. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 16:52:44
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The way they are handling it over at the RealmsVault project is that everything in 3e is canon, INCLUDING Brian James' GHotR.
That means Mystra was murdered and the Spellplague began.
However, evrything after that tome came out isn't considered canon, and they are changing the effects of the Spellplague, and I believe weather Mystra was able to come back afterwards, as she has done before (I'm no longer involved over there, so I'm not sure what progress was made).
This allows players to play THROUGH the Spellplague years (assuming the first couple were the worst), and help mitigate the circumstances, and perhaps even help bring Mystra back.
Personally, I think thats the way WotC SHOULD have gone - that seems like one of the most interesting points in Toril's history, and the designers decided to skip right over it. The years from 1385-1390 DR just scream 'POL', and heroes have tons of opportunities to do things that REALLY matter, like help refugees make it to the safety of BG, or put down insane wizards, or even try to help victims of the Plaguescars.
And NO Abeir silliness - it really is a completely unnecessary story-line. If you want Dragonborn or Genasi Kingdoms, I would suggest just using Returned Abeir as Anchorome, and get all you 'Abeirran Love' from there. With that in place, you can cherry-pick the 4e material and still keep Faerūn intact.
If I'm not mistaken, the are also choosing to ignore Lady Penitent, which everyone should do regardless. Maybe I should head over there and see how far they've gotten... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Sep 2008 03:21:46 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 17:55:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The way they are handling it over at the RealmsVault project is that everything in 3e is canon, INCLUDING Brian James' GHotR.
That means Mystra was murdered and the Spellplague began.
However, evrything after that tome came out isn't considered canon, and they are changing the effects of the Spellplague, and I believe weather Mystra was able to come back afterwards, as she has done before (I'm no longer involved over there, so I'm not sure what progress was made).
That will be my approach as well (though I still have to figure out how to make the Tyr/Tymora/Helm soap opera work in a viable way). |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 18:10:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
redsaber wants a world that matches the 4E rules; Ashe would keep some of the events of 1385 DR. I've seen several other permutations of future Realms put forward. The first hurdle is to find a group that agrees to all these things; if you can do that and get the work done, I don't see why Candlekeep wouldn't host it.
Very good point. I don't expect to ever find someone who would do such a project in exactly the way I would, for example. I disliked certain recent Realms events back before 4E was even announced!
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 18:12:20
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quote:
Originally posted by redsaber
But as you guys might know already, this situation is very annoying for players, GMs and all the people that bought all of the previous stuff (settings, books, compendiums and etc.) that are now worth nothing really in some regions of FR.
You can still use your old material. If you want a 4E game set in the "old" Realms, you could probably make such a game possible if you really wanted--you'd just have to do some tweaking (ie. Mystra changed the rules of magic for such-and-such reason). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 19:23:27
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I think Markus's post shows how hard it'd be to do something like this. See, I want the spellplague about as much as I'd want a kick in the teeth. The Grand History of the Realms is canon in my realms, until the last few pages. So no Spellplague/Mystra's death for me.
It'd be hard to find a canonical version we can all agree on, given that we fans all seem to freely change things in the Realms to fit our own group and needs. It'd be hard to find anyone with the respect and standing in the fan community to really be a lead for such a project too. |
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Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 21:16:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Individuals can certainly do what they wish, and post alternate versions of the Realms if they wish. But those alternate versions will be their own, and cannot receive official sanction from this site.
That officially-inflicted fracturing of the player base, more than any other reason, is my largest regret regarding what's been done to the Realms since its glory days. The lore is where it's at for me, or well, it used to be for me, but now even that one precious garment I've been dangling from is quickly losing thread count. I used to (naively) believe that no matter how radically they changed the core game, FR lore would always be there to use, enjoy, and insert into my Realms. It just goes to show that nothing is sacred in business.  |
I'm on a permanent vacation to the soul. -Tash Sultana |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 21:51:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Varl
I used to (naively) believe that no matter how radically they changed the core game, FR lore would always be there to use, enjoy, and insert into my Realms. It just goes to show that nothing is sacred in business.
I was sadly disabused of this notion as well in this past year.  |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 02:18:32
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"Relationship as in, we are a fan site and thus operate at the sufferance of WotC. They don't have to allow us to operate so freely. I think they could shut us down if they wanted, and I'm certain that they could at the least impose severe limitations on us."
If WotC bullies their customers around like employees, it's definitely time for companies like Paizo to take over. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 02:25:47
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quote:
Originally posted by RodOdom
"Relationship as in, we are a fan site and thus operate at the sufferance of WotC. They don't have to allow us to operate so freely. I think they could shut us down if they wanted, and I'm certain that they could at the least impose severe limitations on us."
If WotC bullies their customers around like employees, it's definitely time for companies like Paizo to take over.
As much as I don't like 4th Edition, nor the changes they did to the Realms, this is NOT about being a bully!
This is a company that has a copyright and has to make sure that copyright is protected and not abused by others.
Weird Al makes some great music, but he also makes sure to the get the permission of every artist he makes fun of before proceeding. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 03:43:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
I think Markus's post shows how hard it'd be to do something like this. See, I want the spellplague about as much as I'd want a kick in the teeth. The Grand History of the Realms is canon in my realms, until the last few pages. So no Spellplague/Mystra's death for me.
Not to disagree with your opinion (which would be silly), but Mystra's death is really nothing new, and the Spellplgaue is a neat way to tweak things in such a way to get a result we would want.
You probaby hate the Spellplague for all it caused, but taken in and of itself, it really is nothing more then a wave of blue energy that washed over the land, allowing designers to do whatever the hell they wanted.
If you look at the last few (annoying) entries in the GHotR, it IS possible to spin things back to something recognizable. Don't hate the Spellplague because of what THEY did with it - embrace it, and make FR your own.
Oh... and keep Abeir-Toril as just the full name for the planet, and ignore all the silliness WotC attached to it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Sep 2008 03:48:11 |
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A Candlekeep version of FR?
