| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| redsaber |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 19:45:36
Hi everyone,
I don't post quite often here (even though I read it much), but I still appreciate a lot all the knowledge and lore you guys have acquired and I must say that I use it very often.
I've been playing in the realms for more then a decade now and I have to admit that I'm completely and utterly disgusted by the new version of it by Hasbro.
So my question goes like this... Would it be possible to have a new version of the realms (still 100 years later) but remade by Candlekeep's scribes?
I'm sure that retarded "returned abeir" and all that crap would be left out, so that hardcore fans like me would finally enjoy playing in that "new 4th ed. realms".
What do you guys think?
PS: I know some of you will tell me "Well you can still play in 3.5 FR", but that's not the point of my question. ;) |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Feb 2009 : 15:47:34
quote:
Originally posted by StarBog
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think it's about ego or confidence -- no matter how much fan-made stuff is out there, it's only the original author(s) that gets paid and considered official. I know that that one fact right there would lead me to ignore most fan-made stuff, if I was a writer. Hell, I'm not a paid writer, and I still don't pay much attention to fan-made stuff.
It probably comes from the Marion Zimmer Bradley incident:
http://www.fanhistory.com/wiki/Marion_Zimmer_Bradley
For years I was on the Raymond E Feist mailing list and Feist himself was quite clear, he could not permit any fanfiction, nor could he actually read any ideas, because of the same reasons as Zimmer Bradley.
You know, despite Laura talking pretty much constantly about the Fan History site in her blog, that's the first time I've looked at it!
I can understand a particular author not wanting to look at someone else's ideas... I think disallowing all fanfiction is going overboard, though.
It wasn't Feist or MZB I was thinking of, though.  |
| Portella |
Posted - 16 Feb 2009 : 13:25:48
any how, back to the topic, I would wait until the fan policy is released. however ... we are all scribes, we talk about the realms, we about what has happen and what could happen. talking about what would have happen if cyric and shar had failed their attempt to murder mystra or some other what if scenarios is perfectly alright. nothing stops you from posting your campaign journal, with the accounts of your adventure on your world where thing may or may not have happen. |
| Portella |
Posted - 16 Feb 2009 : 13:08:13
quote:
Originally posted by StarBog
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think it's about ego or confidence -- no matter how much fan-made stuff is out there, it's only the original author(s) that gets paid and considered official. I know that that one fact right there would lead me to ignore most fan-made stuff, if I was a writer. Hell, I'm not a paid writer, and I still don't pay much attention to fan-made stuff.
It probably comes from the Marion Zimmer Bradley incident:
http://www.fanhistory.com/wiki/Marion_Zimmer_Bradley
For years I was on the Raymond E Feist mailing list and Feist himself was quite clear, he could not permit any fanfiction, nor could he actually read any ideas, because of the same reasons as Zimmer Bradley.
it is because if they read or what ever and then publish a book or anything that seems that it came from the fan site or fan email etc they could be liable to a law suit.
All novel writers are told by their publishers not to accept or read any stories or fan made stuff. |
| StarBog |
Posted - 16 Feb 2009 : 12:01:42
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think it's about ego or confidence -- no matter how much fan-made stuff is out there, it's only the original author(s) that gets paid and considered official. I know that that one fact right there would lead me to ignore most fan-made stuff, if I was a writer. Hell, I'm not a paid writer, and I still don't pay much attention to fan-made stuff.
It probably comes from the Marion Zimmer Bradley incident:
http://www.fanhistory.com/wiki/Marion_Zimmer_Bradley
For years I was on the Raymond E Feist mailing list and Feist himself was quite clear, he could not permit any fanfiction, nor could he actually read any ideas, because of the same reasons as Zimmer Bradley.
|
| Nerfed2Hell |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 21:45:46
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The very last thing any 'creative' person wants is for others to come along and say "they should of done this" or it would have been better if an outcome was "done differntly"...
And then have lots and lots of people on the web agreee that the 'amateur' version is 'pretty cool'.
Any author/designer who is not filled with 'self-doubt' - like Ed for instance, or Elaine - could care less, because they know that THEIR MATERIAL is great, and no 'fan-material' is EVER going to one-up them.
While a VERY clever fan may come out with something just as good, they will never be 'trumped' - its not a matter of 'ego', but rather self-confidence.
While I can't and certainly wouldn't speak for the man himself, I've never gotten the impression from Ed Greenwood's interviews (and general behavior with fans at cons, answering questions here at Candlekeep, and such) that he has that air of confidence that he knows his material is great that he isn't concerned that fan-material would one-up him.
The take I get is that he loves the Realms he's created and shares as much of it as he can with everyone out of that love. And when someone adds their own lore to the Realms, if it makes the Realms a better place, then it would only make him happier about what he put out there that inspired someone to come up with something as good. No ego, as you say, just love for the characters and places he's created. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 21:44:31
I don't think it's about ego or confidence -- no matter how much fan-made stuff is out there, it's only the original author(s) that gets paid and considered official. I know that that one fact right there would lead me to ignore most fan-made stuff, if I was a writer. Hell, I'm not a paid writer, and I still don't pay much attention to fan-made stuff. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 19:14:48
The very last thing any 'creative' person wants is for others to come along and say "they should of done this" or it would have been better if an outcome was "done differntly"...
And then have lots and lots of people on the web agreee that the 'amateur' version is 'pretty cool'.
Any author/designer who is not filled with 'self-doubt' - like Ed for instance, or Elaine - could care less, because they know that THEIR MATERIAL is great, and no 'fan-material' is EVER going to one-up them.
While a VERY clever fan may come out with something just as good, they will never be 'trumped' - its not a matter of 'ego', but rather self-confidence.
The only time an author would stoop to attacking fan-sites is if they considered them a REAL threat... and in that case, we have to ask ourselves why are those sites 'a threat'.
Since its very doubtful it's because of an amazing amount of quality on the fansite (in which case the person writing said material should be a professional and "doing their own thing"), we have to assume that the author feels his own material is sub-par (weather that is true or not is another story).
This doesn't really apply as much to game-setting based fansites, because they help generate interest in the IP, and in WotC's case, they've even taken some of the more talented fans under their wing (like Brian).
On the other hand, if I was J.K. Rowling, I would go after all of those sites that allow more 'questionable' fan-fic (like those atrocious stories about Snape and Hermione <barf>). Sometimes its not a matter of being 'one-upped' by fans, but rather just a matter of good-taste. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 14:47:03
quote:
Originally posted by Azkyroth
Apologies if I'm late replying, but...
I confess I'm entirely unable to comprehend the mindset of someone who would regard the publication of non-commercial fan-created alternatives to their subsequent modifications of a setting - let alone any fan sites at all - as any kind of a threat. Am I to understand that such people really exist?
Indeed. I don't know that WotC has any people like that, but I do know of other authors who are like that. There are a couple of notable non-shared world authors that I've heard won't allow any fansites, regardless of the content. |
| Azkyroth |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 07:04:30
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by RodOdom
"Relationship as in, we are a fan site and thus operate at the sufferance of WotC. They don't have to allow us to operate so freely. I think they could shut us down if they wanted, and I'm certain that they could at the least impose severe limitations on us."
If WotC bullies their customers around like employees, it's definitely time for companies like Paizo to take over.
As much as I don't like 4th Edition, nor the changes they did to the Realms, this is NOT about being a bully!
This is a company that has a copyright and has to make sure that copyright is protected and not abused by others.
Indeed. WotC doesn't have to share. There are others out there -- one notable fantasy author comes to mind -- who come down hard on any fan sites related to their material. Good or bad, they close them down. WotC could be this way, if they chose to be.
We're actually kind of lucky that WotC is as lenient as it is.
Apologies if I'm late replying, but...
I confess I'm entirely unable to comprehend the mindset of someone who would regard the publication of non-commercial fan-created alternatives to their subsequent modifications of a setting - let alone any fan sites at all - as any kind of a threat. Am I to understand that such people really exist? |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 12 Sep 2008 : 13:30:55
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
I also find it amusing that Halaster snuffed it without Waterdeep apparently even noticing, given all the chaos that happened when he was abducted by the Twisted Rune in late 2E (see "Undermountain: Stardock"). had a look at the new edition before buying the core books.
Actually, Halaster 'snuffed it' in the Expedition to Undermountain book that they put out. And when he died, he sent a mental 'shout out' to every adventurer and magic-user that was connected in the remotest way to the Undermountain.
Edit: Oh, and the earthquake centered on Waterdeep too... |
| Jakk |
Posted - 12 Sep 2008 : 06:21:16
I'm with Arioch on this... if my group changes the game system to anything from 3.5, it will be Pathfinder, using FR material from 3.5 and earlier as campaign resources.
I can't even pretend to know what Wizbro was thinking, but I know that nothing they did was necessary. I've heard people saying that "the Chosen [of Mystra] had to go" and all that, and my response is, fine, don't use them in your games. Just because these powerful NPCs are in the books doesn't mean your PCs have to trip over them all the time (or vice versa, more likely).
I also find it amusing that Halaster snuffed it without Waterdeep apparently even noticing, given all the chaos that happened when he was abducted by the Twisted Rune in late 2E (see "Undermountain: Stardock").
On another note, "Spellplague" is certainly a good term for it, since, judging from the new rules, 4E seems to see all wizards as a plague to be eradicated... or at least to discourage players from wanting to participate in.
I must thank Wizbro for giving me more disposable income, though, since I won't be buying any of their future gaming products. I just wish I'd waited and had a look at the new edition before buying the core books. |
| Arioch |
Posted - 10 Sep 2008 : 11:18:19
quote:
Originally posted by redsaber
Hi everyone,
I don't post quite often here (even though I read it much), but I still appreciate a lot all the knowledge and lore you guys have acquired and I must say that I use it very often.
I've been playing in the realms for more then a decade now and I have to admit that I'm completely and utterly disgusted by the new version of it by Hasbro.
So my question goes like this... Would it be possible to have a new version of the realms (still 100 years later) but remade by Candlekeep's scribes?
I'm sure that retarded "returned abeir" and all that crap would be left out, so that hardcore fans like me would finally enjoy playing in that "new 4th ed. realms".
What do you guys think?
PS: I know some of you will tell me "Well you can still play in 3.5 FR", but that's not the point of my question. ;)
Hi Redsaber,
I read this thread only now. I had an idea similar to yours before
(http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11368)
My opinion was then (and partly still is) that one of the main problem of the new FR is the core system, because of the way it influenced the lore.
So, I think I will play with 3.5 rules, maybe using something from the 4ed as house rules.
About the Lore, I agree with Markustay's second post on this thread.
But, if the new policy from WotC will permit it, I also agree on working a more "detailed" (and logical) explanation on some of the latest realms event with interested people.
(Because, as someone said, they changed too much too quickly... often without good "in-game" explanation)
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 05 Sep 2008 : 17:11:18
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not saying that they will or are even likely to. I just don't see that us having some dedicated posters makes us any kind of safe from whatever WotC or its corporate masters decide to do. We do enjoy a sort of special status with all the authors and designers who do come here, but we're still the little guy.
I think Markus might be suggesting that because of the presence of some of our more prominent scribes, that we should probably be seen in a little different "legal" light when compared to other FR fan sites.
In the end, it matters not. Whatever decisions WotC make with regard to their fansite policy... Candlekeep is just as applicable as any other FR site not affliated with WotC. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Sep 2008 : 16:43:05
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
When I re-read the Paizo thread concerning this, I do get the idea that it was only one ATM, and people were only talking about the other person in a 'what-if' kind of way - it was rather confusing.
Perhaps someone with a little 'leverage' (like, say, Brian James) could find out if we are stil do for a fansite GSL at this point?
Also, Wooly, I would hardly call the WotC site their 'Fan Club' - the nay-saying there makes this place look like a bunch of 'FR Fanboyz' (which we were, for the most part, up until a few months ago).
I see FAR MORE negativity aimed at them there then anywhere else on the web. 
Anyhow, you'd be surprised at how many people use CK as a resource - even if they never post. 
Yeah, they have more negativity there -- but that's partially because they have more posters. A lot more. And they also have a lot more fanboyz, too.
But that doesn't change the fact that if you're looking for a place to discuss the setting, the obvious place to look is on the website of that setting's publisher.
As long as they host their own FR forums, that's the official fan club. We are an unofficial fan club. We are far smaller and we are not affiliated with Wizards or its employees in an official capacity. And our status as a place for information doesn't really matter. Compared to their own forums, we are small fish. We're the mom and pop store down the road from Wal-Mart. They could shut us down in a heartbeat and not notice a thing.
I'm not saying that they will or are even likely to. I just don't see that us having some dedicated posters makes us any kind of safe from whatever WotC or its corporate masters decide to do. We do enjoy a sort of special status with all the authors and designers who do come here, but we're still the little guy. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 05 Sep 2008 : 16:38:45
Yes, only Linae was let go. Scott Rouse is still there and he's said that he's working on it, least he did during the ENworld thread about Linae's dismissal.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
Didn't they only let got only one of the two in charge for the GSL? So one is still trying to modify the beast and to give us something usable.
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Sep 2008 : 16:02:22
When I re-read the Paizo thread concerning this, I do get the idea that it was only one ATM, and people were only talking about the other person in a 'what-if' kind of way - it was rather confusing.
Perhaps someone with a little 'leverage' (like, say, Brian James) could find out if we are stil do for a fansite GSL at this point?
Also, Wooly, I would hardly call the WotC site their 'Fan Club' - the nay-saying there makes this place look like a bunch of 'FR Fanboyz' (which we were, for the most part, up until a few months ago).
I see FAR MORE negativity aimed at them there then anywhere else on the web.
Anyhow, you'd be surprised at how many people use CK as a resource - even if they never post. |
| Ayunken-vanzan |
Posted - 05 Sep 2008 : 06:56:52
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The problem is they just let go of the people in charge of the GSL, and those were the same people that were suposed to give us a fansite version, so we may never see a fansite version at this point, since they don't seem interested in any further GSL development at all.
Didn't they only let got only one of the two in charge for the GSL? So one is still trying to modify the beast and to give us something usable. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Sep 2008 : 06:04:41
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
True enough.
The problem is they just let go of the people in charge of the GSL, and those were the same people that were suposed to give us a fansite version, so we may never see a fansite version at this point, since they don't seem interested in any further GSL development at all.
They took their 'ball' and went home, basically.
Anyhow, I would just like to add to this discussion that any attack on CK, after an entire year of PR idiocy, would probably only further alienate the fanbase and drive people away.
No matter what folks may think of them right now, the WotC people are still intelligent, and ordering CK to "cease and desist" would be the equivalent of a 'star' trying to shut down their own fanclub.
I'm not saying that its not possible, but it would be further proof that someone 'in charge' has it in for FR, because that would be akin to IP suicide.
I can't really agree. If they shut down their own WotC forums, then that would be shutting down their fan club. Our total number of posters is far less than theirs, and the number of active posters (even stretching the word active to mean one post a month) is even smaller than that. We're the unofficial fan club.
I agree that them shutting us down would further damage their reputation among many Realms fans, but there are a lot more that really wouldn't care. So I don't see this theoretical shutdown as being anything more than a minor thing for them. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 23:55:43
True enough.
The problem is they just let go of the people in charge of the GSL, and those were the same people that were suposed to give us a fansite version, so we may never see a fansite version at this point, since they don't seem interested in any further GSL development at all.
They took their 'ball' and went home, basically.
Anyhow, I would just like to add to this discussion that any attack on CK, after an entire year of PR idiocy, would probably only further alienate the fanbase and drive people away.
No matter what folks may think of them right now, the WotC people are still intelligent, and ordering CK to "cease and desist" would be the equivalent of a 'star' trying to shut down their own fanclub.
I'm not saying that its not possible, but it would be further proof that someone 'in charge' has it in for FR, because that would be akin to IP suicide. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 15:44:06
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Just as a point of clarification, as far as I know nobody has seen anything about the fansite policy, and as far as I know, there's no reason to believe that Candlekeep and its compendia are likely to be deemed out of bounds. That's right, isn't it?
Yes. But until we're sure exactly how the new fansite policy is worded, we've decided it's best to simply try the "wait and see" approach. |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 15:08:37
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Just as a point of clarification, as far as I know nobody has seen anything about the fansite policy, and as far as I know, there's no reason to believe that Candlekeep and its compendia are likely to be deemed out of bounds. That's right, isn't it?
I think that all we know is that there are most likely going to be changes to it, which is why we are waiting to publish the latest Candlekeep Compendium after we see just what has changed. |
| Christopher_Rowe |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 14:59:29
Just as a point of clarification, as far as I know nobody has seen anything about the fansite policy, and as far as I know, there's no reason to believe that Candlekeep and its compendia are likely to be deemed out of bounds. That's right, isn't it? |
| Varl |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 17:54:04
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As much as I hate to say it, the fracturing of the player base is not new.
I am inclined to say that the fracture is more dramatic and more widespread this time, but fracturing the fan base is not a new thing for the publishers of this setting (both TSR and WotC).
Oh, I know it's not an epiphany or anything, it's just sad. In a world where independent freelance developers of Realms/D&D material can coalesce at one website and create material for OOP editions of the game, it boggles my mind that WotC is unable to.
They give excuses like they'd be competing against themselves, there's not enough of a fanbase to warrant continuing support of old editions, or my favorite, there's not enough money in it to justify the positions required to create the material. Funny, I know of several websites whose fans create wonderful material for both the core game and the Realms, and they're not being paid a dime. Sure, it often takes them longer to create said material, but what's time vs. obsolescence?
All that said, what do I know? I've actually become quite satisfied at the everincreasing distance placed between me and the path WotC chooses to take, as well as very content with the sheer amount of lore we've been given over the past 25+ years. It's not like we need more....or do we?  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 16:55:13
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
WotC can't shut down anything while it's free, don't understand this, what you can't create your own campaign background an put it online, I think you can
Granted, they can't 'shut down the site', per se, but they can restrict us from using any of the names, details or anything else published by them in any of their material, which effectively will shut us down.
Indeed. They could even be annoying about the domain name. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 16:54:22
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by RodOdom
"Weird Al makes some great music, but he also makes sure to the get the permission of every artist he makes fun of before proceeding."
He charges money for his satire. So it wouldn't covered under fair use laws.
If the songwriter or recording company does not give his permission, they can force him to not make the music. He could fight it, of course, but that alone would cost money and time better suited to making music. He also does it because he's a hell of a guy and doesn't want to hurt anyone's feelings.
Do not think that you can publish or sell whatever you want and not worry about the original writers and publishers. That is their hard work, their time and effort and they will protect it.
Actually, he can make parodies freely under fair use laws. Anyone can. Weird Al simply chooses not to. |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 16:26:50
quote:
Originally posted by RodOdom
They could have gotten new fans and kept all the old fans, if they hadn't taken the "piss on it and make it mine" approach. Forget it. The Realms is dead.
I also think they could have kept them all while making smaller adjustments to draw new Players,
Personally I would have thought about plopping abeir down far enough awaty so as not to smash anything and use that as a starting point for new players, who as thry progress would then move to gaming if the richer intact Faerun....oh well. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 16:18:14
quote:
Originally posted by RodOdom
"Weird Al makes some great music, but he also makes sure to the get the permission of every artist he makes fun of before proceeding."
He charges money for his satire. So it wouldn't covered under fair use laws.
If the songwriter or recording company does not give his permission, they can force him to not make the music. He could fight it, of course, but that alone would cost money and time better suited to making music. He also does it because he's a hell of a guy and doesn't want to hurt anyone's feelings.
Do not think that you can publish or sell whatever you want and not worry about the original writers and publishers. That is their hard work, their time and effort and they will protect it. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 16:13:38
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
WotC can't shut down anything while it's free, don't understand this, what you can't create your own campaign background an put it online, I think you can
Granted, they can't 'shut down the site', per se, but they can restrict us from using any of the names, details or anything else published by them in any of their material, which effectively will shut us down. |
| RodOdom |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 15:50:28
They could have gotten new fans and kept all the old fans, if they hadn't taken the "piss on it and make it mine" approach. Forget it. The Realms is dead. |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 14:55:56
quote:
Originally posted by RodOdom
"But I see that every member has a different view how FR should be, making this impossible"
I agree with that. And I don't think a competing version of FR4E would go anywhere. But I don't understand the "oh no, let's no piss them off" concern. With 4E, they have made it quite clear they don't care what FR fans think.
I understand your feelings, bt that's not quite right. They care about FR fans, they care about the ones they think they can keep + ones they think they can attract. It's pretty simple math WOTC think that Number of current Customers < Number of customers in future.
Unfortunately some of us fall in to the group that they expected to fall of the wagon so to speak. Sucks for that group for sure!
As for not pissing them of , thats pretty simple as well. Alaundo's stated goal is to be a repository of all FR lore. Not all FR lore 3.5 and earlier. This site is in it for the long run no matter what, and will be a much better place for all with the full cooperation of Wotc.
While we can debate if they can/could shut this site down, one thing they can easily do is forbid their writers/designers from posting here. It's as simple as saying if you do, no more books for you. And as for me this would be a much different place without Ed, Steven, Brian....etc, etc. |
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