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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 17:40:39
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That's how it is mostly in the original FR and Planescape, if you didn't venerate a deity.
And I'm so not going to get involved with the discussion about the Wall, I've said my thoughts about it many times over the years. :)
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Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Which is why my own Homebrew cosmology sends souls to the plane they are closest to their temperament (alignment), and is not based upon who or what you worshiped.
Only the truly worthy (servants and heroes of the god) get to join the deity in their realm, and this is VERY rare.
I like that idea...and think I'm going to save the wall for hypocrites who SAY that they worship a god...but only do so for show.
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 18:00:13
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Well, here's the thing: The Realms isn't Earth. The same mores don't apply, pretty much across the board. (I wrote a long bit here, but it incorporated FAR to much RL religion, and I don't want to go down that path, so I'm going to leave that alone for now.)
Having said that, YES, the Wall is Evil. And? Kelemvor is NEUTRAL; not 'non-interventionist' neutral, not 'philosophically inclined toward maintaining the Balance' neutral, but 'equal parts good and evil' neutral. He sponsors paladins and clerics who destroy evil undead wherever they find them, which is Good. He actively works to dispel the fear of death and the afterlife, which is Good. He works with other neutral and good gods of the dead to spread that lack of existential terror across the various races, which is Good. He does all this good, and yet he's neutrally aligned; how is that? The answer is that at the same time that he's doing all of this wide-ranging Good, and encouraging his followers to do the same, he's perpetuating a heinous Evil in the form of the Wall. Which is one of the reasons that I like Kelemvor; he's true to his (LN) nature. There are rules, and you WILL follow them, and that is all.
The Realms comic did a good job of showing that a 'good' Power is only really Good in comparison to Evil Powers. These are creatures that basically thrive on a system of spiritual slavery; the deal has always been 'Serve me, or else' and the Powers are really the only game in town. They unhesitatingly send their followers to their deaths to further their own aims, take cosmic risks that doom entire civilizations (Lathander, anyone?) and generally don't act in a fashion that you or I would consider 'good'; and yet they are the 'good guys' because on Toril, the 'bad guys' are SO much worse. Again, Toril is not Earth, and the rules are simply different. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Arzakon
Seeker
Spain
58 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 19:00:32
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| If the gods don't fit with the "good" description as provided in the books, they're not good, at least not for me. I know that FR is not Earth, and all this discussion won't lead anywhere, because as a fantastic setting, anyone can do what he thinks it's best, but I'm just trying to point out that, following their own dogmas, and applying the rules of alignments as they are, good gods behaving that way doesn't make sense to me. Even if evil gods are truly evil, and good gods have done things like Lathander (Dawn of Cataclysm), I don't think it's reasonable to let the Good alignment become the "not-so-evil" one. After all, even Ao himself told the gods to stay true to their portfolios and acknowledge their worshippers. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 19:46:17
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(Arik to Erik — I've studied the Problem of Evil as well.)
These arguments being made against the enslaving gods of Faerûn could apply equally well to gods of any other setting or mythology, even on our own world. In D&D the gods are decidedly unambiguous about being able to enforce worship, and reward it, or punish it (as the Wall will attest).
There's no reason to accept the Wall in your Realms if it's too disturbing, perhaps it could remain but be reserved only for the foulest among the False, who (rightfully) deserve punishment for their lies and betrayals. The Faithless could go wherever their alignments take them, as Markus and others (and old D&D lore) have suggested.
A question is what to do with True Neutrals who claim no god. Do they go to the Outlands?
Do the worthy dead get to choose reincarnation? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Feb 2011 19:47:40 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 20:08:27
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How would a baby or small child, wandering on the fugue plane, act as a petitioner? Are we supposed to believe that each deity keeps a list of children of parents who worship them, just in case the child might die and need some cosmic servant to seek out that one soul? Just to save it from a life of drudgery under Kelemvor? I know some people want to follow every little tidbit that Ed has talked about, but let's be honest: most people who play in the Realms will not know about or seek out every tiny answer provided by Ed or THO here on this forum. They'll rely on the published Realms, because that IS the Realms. Answers from Ed are just what he tends to do in his own Realms, which we all know are pretty divergent at this point.
Frankly, I think it was better before we started getting this silly "petitioner" and "patron deity required" junk that was introduced. And the way they portrayed the fugue plane... it sets things in stone too much, and often in silly or trite ways that make it hard for DMs to have rules for their own campaigns. "But Ed said...!" from a player makes me want to cringe, because a) it's not actually published, and b) can seriously detract from a game if the player insists that it's TRUE. But again, what Ed says is only true for his own Realms. You can adopt it, but it's not THE truth for all Realms everywhere.
Getting back to the morality of the Wall, it's always been described as a punishment. It sort of made sense with Myrkul. But the fact that Kelemvor keeps it around makes him a hypocrite AND evil in my book. He's lawful neutral and yet he keeps this massively unfair "judgment" around. It serves one purpose only: to make people fear death without having a patron deity; it says "serve one of the gods, or be punished by having your soul destroyed." But at the end of the day, it utterly fails in that regard, because it's never been stated that all Realmsians learn about this rule. In fact, we've been told quite frequently that most Realmsians are polytheists (which usually means NOT having a single patron deity). And isn't Kelemvor the god who was supposed to take Myrkul's fear of death away?
If the Wall is supposedly something that exists regardless of the wishes of the God of the Dead, whoever that might be, then it reflects badly on all the gods. It means that the gods are all part of Ao's great lie: that any god's real interest in souls is solely for their "battery" power and all this stuff about good and evil is just a false dichotomy to keep people from finding out the truth.
@Knight of the Gate: being "neutral" doesn't mean you do a good act and then an evil act, such that the net sum equals zero. It means you walk a middle path, avoiding excesses of either good or evil. However, I will agree that the way the "good" gods have been portrayed in recent years is pretty awful and not actually representative of goodness.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 08 Feb 2011 20:41:16 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 20:22:57
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Desperate times lead desperate men to do desperate things ... questionable things ... so, too, with the gods, except their actions multiply across vastly larger scales. It's a little hard to be pure and wholesome when Shar uses it to assault you because good is dumb good is dumb.
A question: if the Berlin Wall of the Faithless gets abolished, what will replace it? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Feb 2011 20:51:52 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 20:33:32
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BTW, linking to TV tropes is akin to Rickrolling. Some people think it's equivalent to support for an argument, but it's a lot like getting into a religion discussion and someone points at the Bible or the Qur'an and says "see!!"
No offense... I just think it's really annoying.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 08 Feb 2011 20:34:26 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 20:39:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
How would a baby or small child, wandering on the fugue plane, act as a petitioner? Are we supposed to believe that each deity keeps a list of children of parents who worship them, just in case the child might die and need some cosmic servant to seek out that one soul? Just to save it from a life of drudgery under Kelemvor? I know some people want to follow every little tidbit that Ed has talked about, but let's be honest: most people who play in the Realms will not know about or seek out every tiny answer provided by Ed or THO here on this forum. They'll rely on the published Realms, because that IS the Realms. Answers from Ed are just what he tends to do in his own Realms, which we all know are pretty divergent at this point.
Frankly, I think it was better before we started getting this silly "petitioner" and "patron deity required" junk that was introduced. And the way they portrayed the fugue plane... it sets things in stone too much, and often in silly or trite ways that make it hard for DMs to have rules for their own campaigns. "But Ed said...!" from a player makes me want to cringe, because a) it's not actually published, and b) can seriously detract from a game if the player insists that it's TRUE. But again, what Ed says is only true for his own Realms. You can adopt it, but it's not THE truth for all Realms everywhere.
Getting back to the morality of the Wall, it's always been described as a punishment. It sort of made sense with Myrkul. But the fact that Kelemvor keeps it around makes him a hypocrite AND evil in my book. He's lawful neutral and yet he keeps this massively unfair "judgment" around. It serves one purpose only: to make people fear death without having a patron deity; but it utterly fails in that regard, because it's never been stated that all Realmsians learn about this rule. In fact, we've been told quite frequently that most Realmsians are polytheists (which usually means NOT having a single patron deity). And isn't Kelemvor the god who was supposed to take Myrkul's fear of death away?
If the Wall is supposedly something that exists regardless of the wishes of the God of the Dead, whoever that might be, then it reflects badly on all the gods. It means that the gods are all part of Ao's great lie: that any god's real interest in souls is solely for their "battery" power and all this stuff about good and evil is just a false dichotomy to keep people from finding out the truth.
@Knight of the Gate: being "neutral" doesn't mean you do a good act and then an evil act, such that the net sum equals zero. It means you walk a middle path, avoiding excesses of either good or evil. However, I will agree that the way the "good" gods have been portrayed in recent years is pretty awful and not actually representative of goodness.
First of all, what Ed says is canon unless later contradicted by WotC. That's a rule that predates WotC and this site -- it was part of the original agreement, when he sold the setting to TSR.
Second, if you accept that most people in the Realms worship multiple deities, than why not accept that every person is going to worship one particular deity more than the rest? Even if it's only a little bit, that's enough to count for them having a patron deity.
We don't know that the Wall only serves one purpose. All we know for certain is that it's there to punish people who go out of their way to ignore everything around them that indicates the existence of a deity.
This debate is actually kind of funny -- many of us follow a religion that speaks of eternal suffering as punishment for disbelief, and yet I don't see anyone saying that the afterlife of any particular real world religion is so unfair or unbelievable or proof that a deity is evil. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 08 Feb 2011 20:41:10 |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 20:41:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
(BIG SNIP)
Getting back to the morality of the Wall, it's always been described as a punishment. It sort of made sense with Myrkul. But the fact that Kelemvor keeps it around makes him a hypocrite AND evil in my book. He's lawful neutral and yet he keeps this massively unfair "judgment" around. It serves one purpose only: to make people fear death without having a patron deity; but it utterly fails in that regard, because it's never been stated that all Realmsians learn about this rule. In fact, we've been told quite frequently that most Realmsians are polytheists (which usually means NOT having a single patron deity). And isn't Kelemvor the god who was supposed to take Myrkul's fear of death away?
If the Wall is supposedly something that exists regardless of the wishes of the God of the Dead, whoever that might be, then it reflects badly on all the gods. It means that the gods are all part of Ao's great lie: that any god's real interest in souls is solely for their "battery" power and all this stuff about good and evil is just a false dichotomy to keep people from finding out the truth.
@Knight of the Gate: being "neutral" doesn't mean you do a good act and then an evil act, such that the net sum equals zero. It means you walk a middle path, avoiding excesses of either good or evil. However, I will agree that the way the "good" gods have been portrayed in recent years is pretty awful and not actually representative of goodness.
Well, here's the thing Therise: Not only is the Realms not Earth, but the Powers aren't human, and don't have human concerns. Are all humans evil because some people cage, fatten, and slaughter members of 'lesser' species for sustenance? Some might think so, and others might think that only those who do the caging, slaughtering, and consuming are evil, but I can tell you this; none of the people making those value judgements are starving, because starving people don't *care* where the food comes from, so long as it turns up.
If we carry the above analogy out a step, then the Powers are taking the resource they need most (faith/adulation/etc) from the only available source- mortals. Some have turned it into a sort of 'factory farm' (major churches) while others are more 'local farmer's market' types (small local cults). But they ALL benefit from mortals knowing that offering prayers to NO Power is going to end badly for them; it's sort of a metaphysical electric fence.
As to 'are the good powers really very good?' debate, I've *never* seen them as 'good' as we in 21st century Western Earth would define the term. And you can say 'Well then they aren't good!', which is fine, but think of this: If you could ask a poor resident of Westgate if Kelemvor is good or evil, what do you think he would say? Probably something along the lines of 'You mean the guy who replaced the roving bands of nocturnal corpse-stealing marauders with undead-slaying paladins? Yeah, I don't really like that guy. Mr. Kelemvor, bring down that Wall!'? No, I think he'd probably have a strongly positive impression of Kelemvor, and it's HIS opinion that matters, not ours.
As for Kel and the wall, Therise: So, because Kel punishes those who violate his rules, he's evil? You *do* know that 'punishing those who violate the rules' is basically the description of 'Lawful Neutral', right? And as for your definition of Neutrality: So all beings are purposefully good, neutral, or evil in your games? There aren't those that just do the thing that they need to do to get through the day? Because, to me, that actually describes about 98% of all the people that I've ever met or can even imagine; and if there ARE people who just do what is necessary, without thought for good or evil, then what would those people be, if not Neutral? As I see it, Kel is doing the job in the way that he believes it is best to do it; some of his actions in doing so are good, some evil, some neither- hence his neutrality. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 20:49:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
First of all, what Ed says is canon unless later contradicted by WotC. That's a rule that predates WotC and this site -- it was part of the original agreement, when he sold the setting to TSR.
Second, if you accept that most people in the Realms worship multiple deities, than why not accept that every person is going to worship one particular deity more than the rest? Even if it's only a little bit, that's enough to count for them having a patron deity.
We don't know that the Wall only serves one purpose. All we know for certain is that it's there to punish people who go out of their way to ignore everything around them that indicates the existence of a deity.
This debate is actually kind of funny -- many of us follow a religion that speaks of eternal suffering as punishment for disbelief, and yet I don't see anyone saying that the afterlife of any particular real world religion is so unfair or unbelievable or proof that a deity is evil.
Your last point is the one that I edited out of my earlier post on RL religion: I didn't wanna open that particular can of worms, but since you did it for me....
So the Flying Spaghetti Monster says that if you reach out and grasp his noodly appendage, he will take you to a land of beer volcanoes and good music all the time. He's a GOOD god! But wait, if you reject his gluteny self, he consigns you to suffer for all eternity in the lake of boiling marinara! That guy is EVIL!
In the Realms, as in life, good and evil are largely a matter of perspective. Good is the thing that benefits you, evil is the thing that hurts you. I think that Torillians see Kelemvor as neutral for just those reasons: He will send paladins to kill the vampires infesting your town, but he will ALSO imprison you in a wall for all eternity if you refuse to believe at all. And I would think that most faerunians are A-OK with that being the case, b/c they have a very recent example of how much worse things could be. And you're right, Wooly; this debate is getting silly. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 20:53:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
BTW, linking to TV tropes is akin to Rickrolling ... <snip> ... it's really annoying.
Fixed that for ya. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 20:54:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
How would a baby or small child, wandering on the fugue plane, act as a petitioner? Are we supposed to believe that each deity keeps a list of children of parents who worship them, just in case the child might die and need some cosmic servant to seek out that one soul? Just to save it from a life of drudgery under Kelemvor? I know some people want to follow every little tidbit that Ed has talked about, but let's be honest: most people who play in the Realms will not know about or seek out every tiny answer provided by Ed or THO here on this forum. They'll rely on the published Realms, because that IS the Realms. Answers from Ed are just what he tends to do in his own Realms, which we all know are pretty divergent at this point.
Frankly, I think it was better before we started getting this silly "petitioner" and "patron deity required" junk that was introduced. And the way they portrayed the fugue plane... it sets things in stone too much, and often in silly or trite ways that make it hard for DMs to have rules for their own campaigns. "But Ed said...!" from a player makes me want to cringe, because a) it's not actually published, and b) can seriously detract from a game if the player insists that it's TRUE. But again, what Ed says is only true for his own Realms. You can adopt it, but it's not THE truth for all Realms everywhere.
Getting back to the morality of the Wall, it's always been described as a punishment. It sort of made sense with Myrkul. But the fact that Kelemvor keeps it around makes him a hypocrite AND evil in my book. He's lawful neutral and yet he keeps this massively unfair "judgment" around. It serves one purpose only: to make people fear death without having a patron deity; but it utterly fails in that regard, because it's never been stated that all Realmsians learn about this rule. In fact, we've been told quite frequently that most Realmsians are polytheists (which usually means NOT having a single patron deity). And isn't Kelemvor the god who was supposed to take Myrkul's fear of death away?
If the Wall is supposedly something that exists regardless of the wishes of the God of the Dead, whoever that might be, then it reflects badly on all the gods. It means that the gods are all part of Ao's great lie: that any god's real interest in souls is solely for their "battery" power and all this stuff about good and evil is just a false dichotomy to keep people from finding out the truth.
@Knight of the Gate: being "neutral" doesn't mean you do a good act and then an evil act, such that the net sum equals zero. It means you walk a middle path, avoiding excesses of either good or evil. However, I will agree that the way the "good" gods have been portrayed in recent years is pretty awful and not actually representative of goodness.
First of all, what Ed says is canon unless later contradicted by WotC. That's a rule that predates WotC and this site -- it was part of the original agreement, when he sold the setting to TSR.
So what? If most people don't know little tiny details that are basically buried on one website, it makes no functional difference whether it's canon or not.
quote:
Second, if you accept that most people in the Realms worship multiple deities, than why not accept that every person is going to worship one particular deity more than the rest? Even if it's only a little bit, that's enough to count for them having a patron deity.
Because "a little more than the others, on one particular day, which might change tomorrow" is absolutely NOT the definition of a patron deity, is it? "Patron deity" is well-defined in the rules, and in lore, and it's not this.
quote:
We don't know that the Wall only serves one purpose. All we know for certain is that it's there to punish people who go out of their way to ignore everything around them that indicates the existence of a deity.
The problem is that there's a mix up what happens to the Faithless and the False. The False, I agree they should be punished. But how does it make any sense to punish someone (with torture and then oblivion) for ignorance of the rules?
The False go into service of the God of the Dead, which is usually being a sort of civil servant of the fugue plane. If Kelemvor wishes, the assignment can be boring or interesting, or it can be a punishment. Not all that harsh, eh?
The Wall is for the Faithless, who might be ignorant of the cosmic rules. Yet they are punished severely, and worse, than the False. The False are those who betray their patron deity in some major way, either through significant blasphemy or false service (doing something seriously heretical, for instance). The Faithless? Maybe they're just ignorant, or too young, or they aren't sure which priest(s) to trust, if any. That's worth a harsher punishment and soul destruction?
No, sorry... I see it as evil.
quote:
This debate is actually kind of funny -- many of us follow a religion that speaks of eternal suffering as punishment for disbelief, and yet I don't see anyone saying that the afterlife of any particular real world religion is so unfair or unbelievable or proof that a deity is evil.
I'll go there. Any deity, real life or otherwise, who punishes someone eternally for disbelief or disagreement is evil.
Anyone powerful who forces "faith" from a weaker person, either by physical or mental coercion, is evil.
Not everyone will agree, but that's how I see it.
Edited: had part of my argument written backwards, fixed now.  |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 08 Feb 2011 21:08:22 |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 21:12:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
[
So what? If most people don't know little tiny details that are basically buried on one website, it makes no functional difference whether it's canon or not.
Wait, you're going to come to the ONE place where you can get those bits of lore (which are, whether or not ANYONE has ever read them, still canon), enter into a discussion on the minutiae of that lore, then DISMISS the source of the subject of discussion? Do you go to tech support sites and ask for help, then when it's given tell the guy who gave you the answer 'What good is all this crap if it's buried in the owner's manual where no one ever reads it?'?  BTW, the vast majority of what's discussed here is 'tiny little details'; this thread would be an excellent example. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 21:25:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
"But Ed said...!" from a player makes me want to cringe, because a) it's not actually published, and b) can seriously detract from a game if the player insists that it's TRUE. But again, what Ed says is only true for his own Realms. You can adopt it, but it's not THE truth for all Realms everywhere.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
First of all, what Ed says is canon unless later contradicted by WotC. That's a rule that predates WotC and this site -- it was part of the original agreement, when he sold the setting to TSR.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
So what? If most people don't know little tiny details that are basically buried on one website, it makes no functional difference whether it's canon or not.
And let us thank the Watching Gods for Marvel Comics Group's foresight in not allowing Stan Lee the same... |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 21:28:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
Well, here's the thing Therise: Not only is the Realms not Earth, but the Powers aren't human, and don't have human concerns. Are all humans evil because some people cage, fatten, and slaughter members of 'lesser' species for sustenance? Some might think so, and others might think that only those who do the caging, slaughtering, and consuming are evil, but I can tell you this; none of the people making those value judgements are starving, because starving people don't *care* where the food comes from, so long as it turns up.
If we carry the above analogy out a step, then the Powers are taking the resource they need most (faith/adulation/etc) from the only available source- mortals. Some have turned it into a sort of 'factory farm' (major churches) while others are more 'local farmer's market' types (small local cults). But they ALL benefit from mortals knowing that offering prayers to NO Power is going to end badly for them; it's sort of a metaphysical electric fence.
As to 'are the good powers really very good?' debate, I've *never* seen them as 'good' as we in 21st century Western Earth would define the term. And you can say 'Well then they aren't good!', which is fine, but think of this: If you could ask a poor resident of Westgate if Kelemvor is good or evil, what do you think he would say? Probably something along the lines of 'You mean the guy who replaced the roving bands of nocturnal corpse-stealing marauders with undead-slaying paladins? Yeah, I don't really like that guy. Mr. Kelemvor, bring down that Wall!'? No, I think he'd probably have a strongly positive impression of Kelemvor, and it's HIS opinion that matters, not ours.
As for Kel and the wall, Therise: So, because Kel punishes those who violate his rules, he's evil? You *do* know that 'punishing those who violate the rules' is basically the description of 'Lawful Neutral', right? And as for your definition of Neutrality: So all beings are purposefully good, neutral, or evil in your games? There aren't those that just do the thing that they need to do to get through the day? Because, to me, that actually describes about 98% of all the people that I've ever met or can even imagine; and if there ARE people who just do what is necessary, without thought for good or evil, then what would those people be, if not Neutral? As I see it, Kel is doing the job in the way that he believes it is best to do it; some of his actions in doing so are good, some evil, some neither- hence his neutrality.
Thanks, I'm well aware that the Realms isn't Earth.
The Realms are meant for roleplaying heroes that fight against evil, against the corrupt, against monsters, and gain fantastic treasures and magic. The whole "points of light" in the darkness thing, that's what D&D is largely about.
That said, the Powers are anthropomorphic, as evidenced by their activities in various novels. Sometimes, even though you and I might want them to act like real, genuine higher beings, they're often shown to be fallible in very human ways.
When you play the game, and serve such a deity, you're essentially relying on tried-and-true tropes about heroic fiction: good is good, evil is evil. There is often a little or a lot of gray, but everything is simplified because this is a fantasy game world. Good is defined, as is Evil. They use classic definitions based on Western ideology because that's how the game was made.
The problem isn't that good and evil are defined. It's not even that the gods are often portrayed like loopy and blind simpletons (although technically that's another problem).
The problem is more that somewhere along the line, someone started creating things that were a) incompatible with heroic fiction, and b) started radically changing the motivations of the gods. Now, not only does "good" no longer have real meaning in the game, the gods are no longer honest champions of their causes. Instead, they're more like uncaring feeders, where good and evil are irrelevant in the big picture.
It changes the focus so that what's important isn't the players and their noble goals. Instead, "reality" on a cosmic level is rendered into a meaningless feeding frenzy of the powerful over the weak. |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Arzakon
Seeker
Spain
58 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 21:28:32
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I was making a huge response, but I finally decided to be brief: let anyone choose their own realms, it's easy. Discussions about theology, teleology (which I think is totally broken for the realms) and cosmology lead nowhere; we cannot be sure in our very world, how can we be so sure in a fantasy world? Even if it may look rather complex, or paranoid, a dying guy, when confronted by the gods, may think about an afterlife even beyond the gods, denying all of them, even if he's good or evil. Think about a mage who has seen the planes, spoken to gods themselves... why would he be so confident about the afterlife, if there are actually even dying gods? What happen to them? What for Ao? And let's not speak about primordials...
So, to be brief, we cannot be sure about anything because the afterlife, even when we design it for our worlds, is something that our human minds cannot assume. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 21:35:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
So what? If most people don't know little tiny details that are basically buried on one website, it makes no functional difference whether it's canon or not.
Wait, you're going to come to the ONE place where you can get those bits of lore (which are, whether or not ANYONE has ever read them, still canon), enter into a discussion on the minutiae of that lore, then DISMISS the source of the subject of discussion? Do you go to tech support sites and ask for help, then when it's given tell the guy who gave you the answer 'What good is all this crap if it's buried in the owner's manual where no one ever reads it?'? BTW, the vast majority of what's discussed here is 'tiny little details'; this thread would be an excellent example.
Ed's answers are wonderful, and I'm glad he takes time to do what he does. That's not at issue.
What I'm saying is that functionally it doesn't matter if it's canon or not. Most people who play in the Realms really aren't going to come here like we do and sift through file after file.
Personally, I love getting little sneak peeks into Ed's Realms, but at the same time I can't pretend that it's the truth for everyone's version of the Realms.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 22:07:42
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Why does the Wall have to be “good” or “evil”?
Why can’t the Realms just be a place where souls are transitory? They occupy a mortal shell, then migrate towards whatever essence (personified in the form of a divine being) they most closely resemble?
The key here is that if you’re a tyrant, your soul does not automatically go to Bane when you die. Rather, reality (and not just the deities with Kelemvor as judge over souls) expects that you recognize what your essence is as you live.
If you’re a tyrant, but believe yourself benevolent and refuse to accept you most closely resemble the tenets of Bane’s faith, off to the Wall with you (or rather, your soul). The Gods aren’t “evil” for what happens to your soul; rather they’re just administrators for reality, where that reality encompasses souls, deities and everything in between.
So no, I don’t see the Wall of the Faithless as being evil or an evil construct at all. The issue is, in my not so humble opinion, how all we scribes have framed the existence of the Wall as a problem to begin with, by looking at the fate of faithless souls as bad without allowing for the possibility that a world (albeit imaginary) can exist where there simply is no other way.
@Therise: You rock, continually. This is true, even when I’ve absolutely hated your guts.
@Everyone else: There’s nothing wrong with a little reminder every now and then to use your own very big brains. |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 08 Feb 2011 22:37:38 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 22:39:40
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You know, part of the whole gig of selecting a patron deity isn't asking which deity it is you're going to serve -- it's asking which deity most closely fits your outlook and beliefs. And part of worshipping a deity is also that they return the favor -- you provide worship, they provide boons and favors pertaining to their portfolio.
Big difference between that and the "THOU SHALT BE MY SERVANT!" idea of a patron deity. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 22:52:00
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I'm a champion of the morally gray in my fiction, but let's keep in mind that as we talk about this, we're talking about FANTASY, which as a genre is all about moral clarity.
Generally speaking, fantasy was created as a genre in order to allow us to tell morally instructive/allegorical stories. In fantasy, the good is the good, the bad is the bad (and the ugly is the ugly). In fantasy, morality is NOT ultimately a matter of perspective. If it was, and morality varied in a fantasy novel from our inner sense of morality, then fantasy would have no meaning to the real world.
(This is not to say there aren't thousands of fantasy books out there that play with morality--I know, I've written a couple of them. But fantasy does have a moral center, and good and evil are real things that can be defined.)
Also, just because Ed says something or a sourcebook say something or the canon says something, that does NOT mean it applies to your game. If a player stands up at your table and says "But Ed says--", then it is your responsibility as a DM to ask that person to kindly stuff it and play the campaign YOU unfold, or step off. (Y'know. Politely. )
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
This debate is actually kind of funny -- many of us follow a religion that speaks of eternal suffering as punishment for disbelief, and yet I don't see anyone saying that the afterlife of any particular real world religion is so unfair or unbelievable or proof that a deity is evil.
Wooly, we were specifically trying not to talk about real world religion! (As a favor to you hard working mods!)
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I'll go there. Any deity, real life or otherwise, who punishes someone eternally for disbelief or disagreement is evil.
Anyone powerful who forces "faith" from a weaker person, either by physical or mental coercion, is evil.
Not everyone will agree, but that's how I see it.
^^^Sing it.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 22:53:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Big difference between that and the "THOU SHALT BE MY SERVANT!" idea of a patron deity.
Exactly.
This also fits with the canonical fact (yeah, I went there…can’t remember the source though) that mortals have free will, which the deities cannot directly usurp. That free will includes the ability to reject the deities.
I also think the question of what happens to children and the barely born is best answered in two ways:
1) If you’re a gamer wanting an in game answer, who the hell cares? Are you creating 9 year old Druids of Malar? Didn’t think so. The game rules for the Realms are meant for players running regular D&D characters. Now roll a Spot check to see if you notice the thief who just picked your pockets while your character was busy ruminating on the deeper metaphysical aspects of the Realms.
2) If you’re wondering about the deeper metaphysical aspects of the Realms outside of play, you have to be willing to look past the framework (yep, framework; not absolute supreme facts of everything) of the lore presented in the rulebooks.
This is where what Ed’s ruminations (or Erik Mona, Sean Reynolds or Eric Boyd or any other game designer who’s thought long and hard outside the box about the Realm’s cosmology in order to condense their ideas into a useable game format) are really helpful. Not everything they write (or think) sees print and as has been shown repeatedly in the past, what they have to say is useful in these types of deeper discussions: not to "say it is so", mind, but to add their own ideas to the mix.
From the PoV of answer #2, I think the mistake we’re making is seeing the fact that all mortals must choose a patron deity as a sort of Sword of Damocles or an “Haha! You thought your free will allowed you to reject the deities, but we gods will get you in the end!” situation. |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 08 Feb 2011 23:13:35 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 22:59:07
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Am I the only one here who read the Ralms of the Elves story that deals with this issue? (Sorry, forgot the title of it ATM) It involved a worshipper of Sheverath who went on a retaliatory raid of a drow outpost and ended up trying to save a drow child. His own had been killed by drow, and his own wife had chosen to poison hrself with the dead drow's blade becuase the child was too young to choose a patron for himself, and she did not wish him to go into the wall! Even after his companions threaten to kill the child- it was crying because they had just killed its parents, and they did not want to bring the entire outpost on them at once- he is unwilling to kill an obviously innocent child. So what do they do? They kill both the child AND him (as a traitor, obviously), and both end up on the Fugue Plane together.
Now, obviously, there is some merit to the question of whether a small child would end up in the wall. BUT!! I think many here are confusing WORSHIP with BELIEF. One does not have to worship ONE particular deity in life, so long as one at least ACCEPTS(believes) that they are real and respects their power and authority over their lives/afterlives. So once they get to the Fugue Plane, they are allowed to decide whom to go to if they did not do so when alive. If they refuse to at least BELIEVE or accept the deities, THEN they end up in the wall. For small children, as long as the parents have been faithful to or at least accknowledged some Power, whether they are alive or dead, I don't think the child is in any real danger of that, although they may need an advocate- which may be why the elf's wife chose to follow her child into the afterlife- to give him a voice.
So the question becomes what do you do with souls who simply will not make a choice? I think the point of the Wall is that those who cannot have any convictions are doomed to fade into nothingness through their own indecision. In otherwords, it's not evil, its their OWN punishment to themselves. At least everyone else had enough conviction of some belief in the gods to make a choice. Those who won't, end up deciding their OWN fate- and it has NOTHING to do with the gods themselves!! Perhaps this is why Kelemvor keeps it around; there has to be somewhere for those souls to go, even if they are damning themselves into oblivion. And perhaps he CAN'T tear it down. It may well be a part of the fabric of multiverse itself. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Arzakon
Seeker
Spain
58 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 23:42:05
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Uh... I didn't think about this "little" difference between worship and belief. Everything makes sense now that I've read your reply. Still... I have a question. So let's assume you acknowledge the existence of gods and their status, but you don't like any of them, even if you have one of the highest convictions and morals... what would happen then? They choose for you? You end up in the Wall? And what about people who willingly despise demons and prefer the Wall rather than serve an evil being?
Guess what... it's too late and I think none of my players would even cross a god to ask him for these questions, :P. |
Edited by - Arzakon on 08 Feb 2011 23:44:00 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 23:52:26
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| In that case, they would probably be taken by whichever deity they are most suited to, or might just go to whichever plane matches their alignment. Note that I said it was those WITHOUT any conviction of morals or beliefs that would go into the Wall. I'm pretty sure it's only intended for those who are so wishy-washy they can't even decide who to follow AFTER the fact of death. As MT said, you'd have to be pretty dumb or indecisive or outright hard-headed to actually take the Wall over any other choice presented. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2011 : 00:08:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
This debate is actually kind of funny -- many of us follow a religion that speaks of eternal suffering as punishment for disbelief, and yet I don't see anyone saying that the afterlife of any particular real world religion is so unfair or unbelievable or proof that a deity is evil.
Wooly, we were specifically trying not to talk about real world religion! (As a favor to you hard working mods!)
Well, I wasn't being specific, but the parallel is there. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2011 : 04:12:32
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Do the gods ever raid the Fugue and try to steal souls from the Wall? Souls are valuable, right? It's been suggested that even the tanar'ri aren't interested in the Wall, and that says a lot. Maybe these spiritually autistic souls are just unfit to survive on any of the planes.
The victims almost surely knew about the Wall, and its purpose, while they lived. They could've cheated death by seeking longevity, or arranging resurrection (ironically granted by the uncaring gods), or even choosing undeath. They could've simply left the Realms, moved to Oerth or Krynn, assumed a risky spelljamming lifestyle, committed suicide somewhere on the planes, whatever.
The Wall is wrong, the gods are criminal (through their inaction about it, if nothing else). It's the Authority System, and you can't really expect to beat it unless you Ascend yourself or you somehow assassinate Ao or stage a coup on the entire pantheon. What's the point of fighting a lost battle? There's enough variety in the pantheon that anyone should be able to find at least one aspect of one god they which is compatible. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 09 Feb 2011 21:26:52 |
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Mystic Lemur
Seeker
58 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2011 : 07:07:02
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It seems to me that most people on Toril would pick a deity to follow regardless of the existence of the wall. The benefits so strongly outweigh the risks, that they would be foolish not to. Are there some who choose to devote themselves to an ideal instead of a diety? Maybe. If so, their soul probably gets claimed by the god whose portfolio best encompassed that ideal. Are there some who acknowledge the existence of the gods and actively deny them their worship? Maybe, but that seems awful thick headed, given that they could easily choose one that matched their temperament.
If they refuse on principle, they deserve the fate they have chosen for themselves. Where would you have them go instead? The best solution so far has been "the plane that best suited their alignment". I would argue that the Fugue Plane is the plane best suited to the Faithless. |
"What mattered our lives now, when our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring." -A review of the FRCG ;) |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2011 : 20:50:38
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Not only that, but we have no way of knowing who put it there, or why. Perhaps it has ALWAYS been there, since even before the gods themselves. I don't believe the Wall itself is "evil", since it is not a sentient thing, merely a terrain feature of the Fugue Plane which seems to have no will or morality of its own. It simply IS. I also don't believe the gods are evil or criminal for leaving it alone. Since they themselves obviously did not put it there (they either ignore it, or simply accept its presence as necessary) it may well be that they are afraid of possible consequences of trying to tear it down or to otherwise remove it. So in the end, the only "evil" is perpetrated by the souls who are so obstinate or foolish that they won't even take a deal with fiends over the eventual oblivion of the Wall.
Nowhere have I seen anything stating that the Wall is part of any individual god's system of authority, or even that of the pantheons as a collective. It exists apart from them outside of their influence, and seems to encompass other spheres in the planes as well. So how does this make its existence wrong? |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2011 : 21:02:36
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| Under that line of thinking it could be argued that the gods, even the evil ones, are in fact rescuing the souls of mortals from the wall by giving them an afterlife through worship, as opposed to using the wall to enslave them. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2011 : 21:38:39
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The Fugue might simply be a quirky component of the (Realms) universe, much like any other plane. If unclaimed/unworthy souls are stuck there indefinitely (until they dissolve into the essence of the Fugue itself) then it's not really evil to group them together to protect all the other souls. You can't have them wandering around causing problems, and they're probably disintegrating leper-like ghost things anyhow, the sort of faded vestige that would unsettle anyone else who arrived on the Fugue. They might even be active threats to other souls, as suggested by the fact that the Wall sometimes "attacks" those who wander too close, perhaps they seek to feed from the essence of intact souls, perhaps they've devolved into mindless or insane entities.
So somebody created the Wall from them. Maybe Jergal, who (in the beginning) had absolute authority over the Fugue and the dead, and so the Wall could not be challenged by any other god. Or maybe Ao, whose power and decree cannot be challenged by any among the pantheon in any circumstance. The Wall is a sort of construct, like the Weave, and bringing it down might have destructive implications across the Realms. If this is the case, then the gods aren't particularly evil for allowing the Wall to continue existing. (They are of course somewhat evil in the sense that they coerce belief from mortals, but that's a different argument.)
Would it be less evil to just throw all the False and Faithless into a mechanical grinder to pulverize them quickly? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 09 Feb 2011 21:46:38 |
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Morality of the Wall of the Faithless
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