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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Feb 2011 : 21:50:14
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| I don't see the gods in general as coercing worship or belief from mortals (except for the evil gods, who don't want their followers praying to anyone else)- in fact, just the opposite. I see them as ENCOURAGING belief, so that the souls of mortals DON'T end up in the wall. (And perhaps in doing so increase the size of the Fugue Plane so much that it begins to infringe on other planes!) Of course they want to increase their own domains by adding followers, but they also would not want any other plane becoming too large, and other gods gaining too much power. I think that the Wall and the belief in the gods works to balance the cosmic status-quo, and gods seeking worshipers is a way of preserving the balance by giving mortals a choice both in life AND death. SO although the gods may actively seek new followers, they are not necessarily coercing them into it, but encouraging them to choose a fate that does NOT lead to the wall! (And which hopefully increases their own godly power in the bargain, of course!) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2011 : 22:50:38
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I hear that the Mafia engages in protection, rather than extortion. They're not forcing you to pay money or suffer the consequences, not at all! Rather, the Mafia encourages your participation in a "community protection" program, with a "small" entry fee and modest recurring fees. And they might ask you to do a little favor for them now and then. Threats, pssh! Who said anything about threats, hey?
**adjusts tie, brushes sleeve of hand-tailored Caraceni suit**
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 09 Feb 2011 22:51:19 |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2011 : 23:16:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I hear that the Mafia engages in protection, rather than extortion. They're not forcing you to pay money or suffer the consequences, not at all! Rather, the Mafia encourages your participation in a "community protection" program, with a "small" entry fee and modest recurring fees. And they might ask you to do a little favor for them now and then. Threats, pssh! Who said anything about threats, hey?
**adjusts tie, brushes sleeve of hand-tailored Caraceni suit**
It's a good analogy, but not a perfect one. See, the mafia 'protects' you from themselves, whereas the Powers protect you from other Powers. So it's more like paying your local mafia (which is fond of merely executing people) to protect you from the syndicate across town that's more into the kneecappings, THEN the executions. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2011 : 23:20:36
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| Your description of mafia sounds a lot like my government. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2011 : 23:29:15
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I disagree, particularly the ''wall of the stupid''. The intelligence of the faithless souls is higher than average, a lot of them have an Imaskari or Netherese origin. What gives the right to gods to manipulate souls that don't want anything to to with them. Like on any other worlds these souls could go straight to the astral conduits, avoiding the Fugue. The existence of gods in FR is not evident, only the existence of supernatural beings who claim to be gods. If the gods are an expression of collective mortal beliefs they would accept only the ones who live according to their portfolios, not every peasant who gives lip service out of custom. Faith does not work that way. This proves that the gods are parasites of souls and are no better than the tanar'ri or baatezu.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
So in the end, the only "evil" is perpetrated by the souls who are so obstinate or foolish that they won't even take a deal with fiends over the eventual oblivion of the Wall.
Lol, picking oblivion over thousands of years of torture and then oblivion is foolish?
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
And perhaps in doing so increase the size of the Fugue Plane so much that it begins to infringe on other planes!
The Fugue is already infinite, as are the other planes. Only mortal belief shapes the outer planes not the belief of petitioners. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2011 : 23:38:14
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quote:
Quale [and Arik]
The existence of gods in FR is not evident, only the [divine] existence of [divinely] supernatural [godlike] beings [of godlike power] who claim [and prove] to be gods.
Which is to say that the existence of gods in FR would seem to be inarguably evident.
Other than this sentence I happen to agree with you 100%, Q. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2011 : 23:42:26
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I'm surprised no one mentionned that the whole Wall of the Faythless issue is at the core of the Mask of the Betrayer expansion for NWN2. It is a perfect example of gray morality, with angels figthing angels, some even siding with demons, liches and other evil beings, to bring down the wall.
In the end, I think the wall is very like Kelemvor, lawful neutral: Follow this one rule, or you'll pay dearly, no matter who you are. On the other hand, following this one rule will be greatly rewarded. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2011 : 00:29:30
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@ Quale: You seem to equate the idea of "faith" in a god as being coerced or forced in some way. No one is forcing the souls to follow any one particular path. They still have free will, to decide what their own eventual fate will be by their actions both in life and death. Most folk in the Realms would probably say that they follow the gods of their homeland out of tradition or convenience- but at least they HAVE one. I'm not so sure whether most gods in the Realms particularly care about WHY their common followers choose to believe in them, so long as they are at least faithful to the basic tenets of their chosen deity. For those who don't have a particular patron, but are still reverent to the gods in general (which is really all that is necessary to avoid the Wall) then there is no reason NOT to be! They already know from the sermons of various priests what waits for those who are truly faithless to ANY god, so why would they choose oblivion over all the other options? I'm sorry, but even a devil or demon offering the chance to eventually become one of them in exchange for servitude (which is basically what they are offering) is better than knowing FOR A FACT that one's soul (and what else do they really have after they are dead?) is going to be destroyed!
You seem to be forgetting that souls bound for the Hells or Abyss usually become drethes or lemures, so "torture" is a relative term. In essence, the demons and devils are offering the souls on the Fugue Plane a chance to advance faster than they would otherwise. Seems like a better choice than simply being buried in a Wall for thousands of years ans slowly being crushed into nothing.
And by expanding the Fugue Plane, I'm talking about power, and expanding the "material essence" of the plane, not its actual "size". Although each plane is infinite in theory, they are not all equal in strength or material components. Limbo, for example, has much less physical material than, say, Arborea, and Mechanus is built of thousands of gears, while Pandemonium is filled with holes and channels, tunnels, and rifts. Where does the material to "build" these Planes come from? Souls! The planes are formed from soul-stuff, and it takes souls to maintain them. But the souls who become part of them are not destroyed utterly like those in the Wall seem to be. (The Wall is composed only of the most recent souls to be stuffed into it- the older ones are shredded and basically gone.) They become part of the plane iteslf, which means that one way or another, any soul that goes to a god's domain or plane of existence ends up becoming "one with its deity". The Faithless aren't so lucky- they don't get to be "one' with anything- just snuffed out. Permanently.
So- take an afterlife of simple service, or a second (and MUCH more permanent) "death"? I know which one I'D choose....
Edit: And I just had another very relevant thought- most mortals would actively (and quite rightly!) choose to go where most of their loved ones are. So the question is, knowing that your friends and family are probably all in the domain of some god, would YOU choose oblivion over the chance to be with them FOREVER?! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
Edited by - Alystra Illianniis on 10 Feb 2011 00:32:11 |
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Mystic Lemur
Seeker
58 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2011 : 02:54:08
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I'm not claiming that it is a wall of the stupid by any means. I'm sure some of the people who chose the wall had, what they thought were, very good reasons. Maybe even though the wall didn't exist. Maybe, in the case of some of the Netherese, thought they'd never die to see it.
The point being, they made a choice. The fair, just, lawful etc. thing to do is to let them spend eternity the way they chose. Fair isn't about being either merciful (good) or cruel (evil). It is about giving the soul exactly what eternity they chose in life. If anything, allowing the various fiends a chance to offer bargains is more than the faithless deserve. As a Lawful Neutral diety, Kel would probably assume he was duty bound to continue sending Faithless to the wall. I think he would be right to feel that way. |
"What mattered our lives now, when our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring." -A review of the FRCG ;) |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2011 : 18:25:07
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| I agree, ML. In fact, I'd also add that the Wall was there LOOONG before Kelemvor got the job, and possibly even before Jergal did, too. Who can say if any of them even knows HOW it could be brought down? It might be something they have not figured out how to change. gods are not all-knowing, outside their specific spheres. Another thing I'd like to mention is that I seriously doubt that Kel would use the souls of very young children as his servants. for one thing, those souls have not been around long enough to have made a choice, so they should either be sent back via reincarnation for another chance, or taken to the plane/domain of their family's god. If they died without a family, (ie, they were raised in a monestary or orphanage and the family is unknown, or they are the last member of a family that died long before, or their are no dead relatives or family friends to speak for them) they would likely be allowed to "grow up" on the planes in some sort of care before having to make a choice or be arbitrarily pushed into a particular afterlife. At least, that's my take on it. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2011 : 18:58:41
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| Well, Kelemvor did take it down at one point and all the other gods made him put it back up. I'm not aware of the specific details of the event, though. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2011 : 21:51:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
So- take an afterlife of simple service, or a second (and MUCH more permanent) "death"? I know which one I'D choose....
Some [like the Netherese and other powerful beings] intend to live forever [via lichdom, wish spells, etc.], and so they see servitude to a deity useless. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 00:23:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
@ Quale: You seem to equate the idea of "faith" in a god as being coerced or forced in some way. No one is forcing the souls to follow any one particular path. They still have free will ...
When they leave you with two choices and one of them if punishment (you said it yourself, worse than hell) that is obviously manipulation. Such illusion of choice is worse than going to elections in our world.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
A FACT that one's soul (and what else do they really have after they are dead?) is going to be destroyed!
By merging with a god the faithful petitioner is going to vanish as well, lose his identity, no different than having his soul devoured by a fiend. Agreement here is that gods are eternal, and they die all the time, I bet the souls in the wall survived longer than the souls in Midnight.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
You seem to be forgetting that souls bound for the Hells or Abyss usually become drethes or lemures, so "torture" is a relative term.!
I don't think you realize what kind of torture do the souls in the lower planes go through. After thousands of years of being boiled in pits of flame and surviving as Blood War cannon fodder chances of promotion into a e.g. spinagon are astronomical. Then it starts all over again, torturous molding of the soul into a true slave of hell, its identity far from what the soul originally was. Yes the fiends lie in their contracts, but then the souls who refused this kind of fate don't seem that stupid? Another proof that the Fugue leans towards evil is that the baatezu are allowed take souls, where are the archons?
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Limbo, for example, has much less physical material than, say, Arborea, and Mechanus is built of thousands of gears, while Pandemonium is filled with holes and channels, tunnels, and rifts. Where does the material to "build" these Planes come from? Souls!The planes are formed from soul-stuff, and it takes souls to maintain them.
Why is then Pandemonium still there if Abyss has much more souls? I don't think the Faithless merge with the Fugue, that would mean the Fugue would become a place that rejects gods, the Wall is probably a conduit to the negative energy plane.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
So the question is, knowing that your friends and family are probably all in the domain of some god, would YOU choose oblivion over the chance to be with them FOREVER?!
Depends on where they go, would you be able to live with them for an eternity in Loviatar's realm.
Personally I can't be forced to believe into something for the wrong reasons.
Petitioners have no memories of their former lives, and they merge, so there's no eternity. At least in Planescape. Not that I agree with the lost memory part. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 00:29:30
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| Most souls bound for hell don't actually become devils. They become fuel. Raw materials. "Clay to be sculpted, even as it screams" as the Codex of Betrayal puts it. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 00:43:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
@ Quale: You seem to equate the idea of "faith" in a god as being coerced or forced in some way. No one is forcing the souls to follow any one particular path. They still have free will ...
When they leave you with two choices and one of them if punishment (you said it yourself, worse than hell) that is obviously manipulation. Such illusion of choice is worse than going to elections in our world.
Yeah, except for the fact that depending on your race and locale, you've got anywhere from a dozen to 50 choices, and all you have to do is pick the one whose personality/goals most closely match your own. And you only have to make the choice once, and it won't have very much impact on your day-to-day life. Other than that, it's identical.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 00:56:40
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| Excellent post and insights, Quale. You've really got an excellent perspective on the Wall and Fugue. It's clear you are thoroughly versed in Planescape and FR lore! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 00:58:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Most souls bound for hell don't actually become devils. They become fuel. Raw materials. "Clay to be sculpted, even as it screams" as the Codex of Betrayal puts it.
They're largely LE souls destined to become either lemures or nupperibo, depending on just how malign they were in life. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 02:51:55
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@ Quale: You think there are only two choices? I'll go with Wooly on that count. There are dozens of choices for any given soul, and as he said, you only have to choose once. Then again, there are mortals who change their minds and decide to switch deities in life, for many different reasons. No one forces them to stick with just one, although worshipers of evil gods or followers who turn to evil gods after "falling" from the path of a good one might face some serious repercussions in the afterlife. But it's THEIR choice.
Merging with a god is NOT the same as being utterly obliterated, either. In the first, they are seen to achieve "oneness" with their deity, or "being fully embraced" by the god in question. The ultimate union with the divine, as it were. What is so bad about that? The soul in this case becomes part of something far greater than itself, which is, of course, the true purpose of faith- to unite fully with the divine essence that resides inside one's own soul. This is certainly not a "bad" fate, and in any case, it occurs (usually) after millennia of devout and loyal service. It's a "reward" as you put it. Having one's soul completely wiped out as if it had never existed, on the other hand, is just that. There is no reward or higher purpose in it, no greater knowledge, understanding, or even union with a higher power. You're just GONE. Not even a shred of the soul's essence left, even as part of a deity.
Devils lie, sure, and yes, I AM aware of exactly what kind of "torture" they go through. (Hey, I'm Wiccan, but I was raised to believe in God and Hell! And I've read the Bible enough to know what Hell is like. ) Having one's soul devoured is probably not much better, so, yes, most souls probably wouldn't choose that particular route. HOWEVER- you ask where the Archons are, and the simple answer to that is that THEY are the ones collecting the souls for their patron gods! Obviously, Helm himself is not going to come personally collect each individual soul. So who is he going to send? A Celestial, of course! Souls who were good, probably don't have much to fear from the demons and devils hoping to offer them a place in the Hells or Abyss, since they likely already have plenty of higher plane beings vying for their soul. Hmm, WHAT was the choice, again?
So the soul looses it's identity? I don't entirely believe that, as the Planescape set was literally FULL of petitioners and proxies from the Prime Material who still retained their identities and personalities while serving their deities, both on the upper and lower planes. Hallowed Ground alone had several listed, and so did some of the other books (Don't have them handy ATM, but I saw quite a few of them under the listing of the various godly domains.) This utterly contradicts the notion of forgetting one's former self.
Also, although gods die, they still have godly essence on the Astral, and can even be revived, so obviously that argument isn't really relevant. The souls that have become part of them (or their domains) are still there, at least to some degree. Which would indicate that yes there IS an eternity.
As for the negative energy plane, let's keep in mind that souls are formed of positive energy. This is why positive energy destroys undead- because they are the exact opposite of life energy, which is really what a soul is. For the same reason, negative energy DRAINS life and can destroy a mortal's soul (life-draining of some higher undead). So even if the Wall is a conduit to the Neg Energy plane, the soul is still obliterated.
My question to you is- why do you have the belief that they are being forced/manipulated/coerced? They had an entire LIFETIME to decide what they believed in. Then they get a SECOND CHANCE after they die!! What more do you NEED?! That's like saying they should just be allowed to continue to wander aimlessly for eternity, taking up space in the planes, not contributing to anything or serving any purpose whatsoever. Basically, they are the eqivalent of cosmic vagrants who hold out cups asking for planar aid, and then go squander what they're given. In this case, they're wasting it TWICE. Think of the Fugue Plane as like a last chance soup kitchen and shelter. Sure, they'll help you find a home- but you have to EARN it. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 02:58:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
My question to you is- why do you have the belief that they are being forced/manipulated/coerced?
I do nae with to speak for good Scribe Quale, but ye mightest review the following:
coerce:
*
Persuade (an unwilling person) to do something by using force or threats
o
they were coerced into silence
*
Obtain (something) by such means
o
their confessions were allegedly coerced by torture
*Taken from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Deities in Faerun coerce their followers to worship them or suffer nigh-eternally in a Wall made of souls. This is a consequence for failing to worship them. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 03:32:08
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If a mortal CHOOSES to join NO CHURCH, then that mortal is UNWILLING to venerate a deity.
This mortal will eventually find herself on the Fugue. This mortal will then be given a choice: Serve a deity, or be placed in the Wall.
(This is coercive.)
This mortal might then reply, "No, I do not wish to serve you eternally."
The deities will then say, "Then you are hereby placed in a Wall, where your essence will be ground into oblivion."
"Why am I to be placed in the Wall, deities?" This mortal might inquire.
"You are to suffer, and then be ground into oblivion, because you choose not to serve any of us."
"Why must you obliterate me?" This mortal might reply. "I have done nothing to you!"
"Well, we deities actually eat your faith; because you chose not to feed me your devotion, I must obliterate you."
"Oh," this mortal might reply. "In that case, I choose for you to be obliterated. I actually feed on the supplication of deities. Give me your supplication, or die forever."
"No, mortal, we am more powerful than you. You must obey."
"But a system of ethics which is not based on a categorical imperative cannot be a universal law...."
"Get in the Wall, fiend-food."
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Ah, but Erdrick the key word there is UNWILLING. As far as I know, MOST mortals are far from unwilling to accept divine patronage, and your definition only holds up if they are being TOLD to follow deity X. They are NOT. They can CHOOSE to enter and join ANY church they wish, and to leave it if they no longer agree with it! How is this coersion?
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 04:31:04
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Oversimplification, much? Seriously, they don't even have to actively WORSHIP any ONE god, so long as they ate least acknowledge and respect/believe in them in general. Ed has said countless times that most Realms folk worship or at least give some homage to several deities. In other words, they are free to worship any one or all of them. These folk are not being stuffed into the Wall willy-nilly. And the gods don't just arbitrarily say- "give me your tired, hungry, poor huddled masses" and kick the unfit ones to the curb. The folk of the Realms are not given an unreasonable demand, just expected to choose some sort of path in life that suits them, and respect the power that represents that path.
A rnager, for instance, is not required to follow any particular nature deity, they are just expected to respect the powers of nature and the gods who rule it. Same with a warrior who lives by the philosophy of glory and honor in battle. He doesn't have to actively worship Tempus, but he DOES have an "obligation" if you will, to recognize that Tempus is the god who represents those concepts. It seems like most of the arguments agianst the Wall are based on trying to separate the gods from the concepts they embody in the lives of mortals. You CAN'T.
If a mortal holds a certain concept as important, he is (or should be) venerating the deity who represents that concept, whether he acknowledges it or not. But if that mortal refuses to even acknowledge the existence of the deity who oversees what he supposedly believes in, then why should his soul be rewarded for that in the afterlife? He's faithless, because he is not even being true to HIMSELF. In the end, the Wall is there for those souls who can't even be true to their own ideals. They earn their fate because they HAVE no belief in ANYTHING! (Sort of like being a complete nihilist, which is sort of ridiculous in the Realms, with all the gods VISIBLY walking around...) These are souls who can't even be convinced of their own existence!!!  |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 05:11:23
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Too right. Subjecting the morals of the Powers to the categorical imperative is *totally* over-simplifying matters...
"Everyone in Faerun knows that those who die without a patron deity to send a servant to collect them from the Fugue Plane at their death spend eternity writhing in the Wall of the Faithless or disappear into the hells of the devils or the infernos of the demons."
-FRCS pg. 232
Please note that the FRCS, pg. 39, directly contradicts the position you have put forth heretofore.
"Having a patron deity implies some true personal connection to that deity."
italics added for emphasis
Not a concept. Not an alignment. To THAT DEITY.
What happens in the Afterlife? (This is canon, not speculation.)
"When mortals die, their souls are drawn to the Fugue Plane....From time to time (anywhere from once a day to over a tenday, depending on the deities involved), the powers send representatives-usually outsiders of the appropriate alignment- to the Fugue Plane to gather the souls of their own worshippers .
FRCS pg.258
Mielikki's agents are not gathering nature-lovers. She is gathering her worshipers. Tempus' agents are not gathering brave and bold warriors, they are gathering worshipers of Tempus.
"Because they lose strength if their worship dwindles away and is forgotten, deities task their clerics and others to whom they grant divine spells with spreading their praise and doctrine, recruiting new worshipers and keeping the faith alive."
-FRCS pg. 232
Now that we know that:
a. All Faerunians know the fate their gods have for them
b. that the powers require the prayers of men to sustain them
c. that men are punished for failing to feed the powers by obliteration via 'supernatural greenish mold' (FRCS pg 259)
one can certainly make their own assessments regarding the morality of the Powers.
I believe that the Powers are the worst of a lot, petty schemers and dilettantes; wicked and self serving. A 'Good' being would rescue another, regardless of whether they "deserved" rescuing, from such a fate.
Which is why i always keep a 'Thought Bottle' and 'Wish' spells handy...
Screw the gods.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Oversimplification, much? Seriously, they don't even have to actively WORSHIP any ONE god, so long as they ate least acknowledge and respect/believe in them in general. Ed has said countless times that most Realms folk worship or at least give some homage to several deities. In other words, they are free to worship any one or all of them. These folk are not being stuffed into the Wall willy-nilly. And the gods don't just arbitrarily say- "give me your tired, hungry, poor huddled masses" and kick the unfit ones to the curb. The folk of the Realms are not given an unreasonable demand, just expected to choose some sort of path in life that suits them, and respect the power that represents that path.
A rnager, for instance, is not required to follow any particular nature deity, they are just expected to respect the powers of nature and the gods who rule it. Same with a warrior who lives by the philosophy of glory and honor in battle. He doesn't have to actively worship Tempus, but he DOES have an "obligation" if you will, to recognize that Tempus is the god who represents those concepts. It seems like most of the arguments agianst the Wall are based on trying to separate the gods from the concepts they embody in the lives of mortals. You CAN'T.
If a mortal holds a certain concept as important, he is (or should be) venerating the deity who represents that concept, whether he acknowledges it or not. But if that mortal refuses to even acknowledge the existence of the deity who oversees what he supposedly believes in, then why should his soul be rewarded for that in the afterlife? He's faithless, because he is not even being true to HIMSELF. In the end, the Wall is there for those souls who can't even be true to their own ideals. They earn their fate because they HAVE no belief in ANYTHING! (Sort of like being a complete nihilist, which is sort of ridiculous in the Realms, with all the gods VISIBLY walking around...) These are souls who can't even be convinced of their own existence!!!
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Edited by - Erdrick Stormedge on 11 Feb 2011 05:12:35 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 05:19:53
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I've noticed a few people asking "What right do the gods have to do this to mortals?"
...Uhm, divine right? If we accept that the gods exist and are true gods, which everything seems to imply is the case, then by definition they are above mortal creatures, above our judgement of what ever "rights" we think they should or should not have. I think the previous comparison to us humans slaughtering animals for food was a fairly apt one.
As for the good gods not rescuing people from the wall, consider that if they did that there would be nothing to stop the evil gods from actively stealing and capturing souls from the wall, and vice versa. The agreement, unspoken or otherwise, for neither side to interfere with it is likely a major factor in preventing an all out war between the gods. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 05:27:55
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What is your definition of a 'true god', Chosen of Asmodeus?
The gods of Faerun are not 'gods' as conceived in the real world. The are neither omniscient, omnipotent, nor omnipresent.
A universal moral standard cannot include a 'might makes right' a priori.
Interesting speculation regarding a 'war amongst the gods', but this is speculation. Regardless, a 'good' being cannot condemn another sentient being to torment and oblivion; this is not a 'good' act.
Should a paladin retain his paladin powers if he told a farmer to give him his crops, or die?
What then if the paladin slew this farmer, for failing to do as he said?
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I've noticed a few people asking "What right do the gods have to do this to mortals?"
...Uhm, divine right? If we accept that the gods exist and are true gods, which everything seems to imply is the case, then by definition they are above mortal creatures, above our judgement of what ever "rights" we think they should or should not have. I think the previous comparison to us humans slaughtering animals for food was a fairly apt one.
As for the good gods not rescuing people from the wall, consider that if they did that there would be nothing to stop the evil gods from actively stealing and capturing souls from the wall, and vice versa. The agreement, unspoken or otherwise, for neither side to interfere with it is likely a major factor in preventing an all out war between the gods.
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Edited by - Erdrick Stormedge on 11 Feb 2011 05:29:52 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 05:36:37
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Most gods throughout realworld mythology have been neither allpowerful or all knowing. Even within the abrahamic traditions that idea took a while to catch on(there's a story in the old testament where God loses a wrestling match to a regular guy).
Within the context of dungeons and dragons and by extension, the forgotten realms, there is a universal standard of what is good and what is evil. That doesn't have to match up with what we in the real world in the modern time consider to be good and evil. It could be that they are actually saying that actively rejecting the gods is, in fact, something that warrents oblivion. That it is a crime worthy of slowly melting into mortor and then being crushed into nothing as a reasonable punishment. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 05:47:17
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I would prefer not to get into real-world religion; but I must say that I am something of a scholar in the Abrahamic traditions, and am unfamiliar with this story from the Old Testament. Is this perhaps a non-canonical Book? Feel free to PM a source, if you have one.
The Torah is pretty clear on the all-powerfulness of the Creator God, however.
Regardless, what is a 'true god'?
And regarding fantasy morality, I believe Eric de Bie put it well when he stated that indeed, fantasy morality is predicated on the dichotomy represented in the real world. Noble knights and fair damsels, and all that...
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Most gods throughout realworld mythology have been neither allpowerful or all knowing. Even within the abrahamic traditions that idea took a while to catch on(there's a story in the old testament where God loses a wrestling match to a regular guy).
Within the context of dungeons and dragons and by extension, the forgotten realms, there is a universal standard of what is good and what is evil. That doesn't have to match up with what we in the real world in the modern time consider to be good and evil. It could be that they are actually saying that actively rejecting the gods is, in fact, something that warrents oblivion. That it is a crime worthy of slowly melting into mortor and then being crushed into nothing as a reasonable punishment.
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Edited by - Erdrick Stormedge on 11 Feb 2011 05:48:43 |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 05:51:12
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Oh, Chosen of Asmodeus, you are refering to Jacob, in Genesis.
He lost the match, btw... |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 05:52:45
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I don't have the text on me; I'm somewhat more versed in the new testament and the quran, but I'm by no means a scholar.
However, I was more thinking along the lines of the greek, norse, egyptian, mesoamerican, and various other ancient pantheons that did not cast their gods as all powerful beings in the same way the Abrahamic god is held to be. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Morality of the Wall of the Faithless
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