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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 17:03:43
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I believe I've mentioned here that I'm a regular contributor over on TV Tropes. As such I've done a fair amount of editing on their page regarding the Forgotten Realms.
One of the tropes they have over there is "God is Evil", which is exactly what it sounds like, and they apply this to the realms because even the good gods force the Wall to be maintained, and the contributors over there see the wall as a horrible, evil thing.
Personally I dispute this because as it stands, at worst this is a case of the Gods having a self preservation instinct. But I was curious as to what others more versed in realmslore thought of the situation.
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"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 20:06:59
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What else are you going to do with these souls? They'll be around for a chunk of eternity. They're basically the Realms equivalent of spiritual indigent/homeless cases or nuclear waste. They haven't qualified for anything else. They can't be rewarded with a happy afterlife. They've rejected all the gods and even rejected last-chance baatezu bargains. They can't be given to the other fiends without tipping the cosmic balance. Nobody wants them around or wants to sustain them forever. It's probably impractical to exile them to the Far Realms, justify the cost of proper disposal, or have them recycled.
So they get bulldozed into a useful landfill architectural feature and serve as a dire warning. They had the chance, while alive, of not being lazy if they had truly wanted eternal oblivion they would have made the effort. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 07 Feb 2011 20:12:09 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 20:09:15
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I think of it as the "Wall of the Stupid".
Think about it: You live on a planet that not only has CONSTANT proof of god's existence (priestly magics), but the gods themselves have walked the world! Knowing this, and therefor having proof of an afterlife, only an utter idiot wouldn't be faithful to something.
There is nothing evil about the wall - it is a punishment for not bothering to choose a god and stick with it. Unfaithful go to Kelemvor (which makes me wonder why anyone bothers to worship a god who's Realm is basically the 'hell' for all other gods). The faithful, on the other hand, go to their god's realm. Ergo, there has to be a place for those who do not bother to plan for their afterlife (which is just plain STUPID, as I have pointed out above).
I suppose some neutral 'limbo' might serve the setting better, or being stuck on the Fugue Plane, or even being reincarnated (although some folks may want that). From the novel Prince of Lies, there is some indication that the folks on the bottom of the wall eventually get crushed into nothingness, so perhaps The wall serves as FR's 'purgatory'.
A LOT about FR's afterlife bugs me, which is why I use my own HB version of things. It makes no sense to me that more souls do not just jump into the river, or feed themselves to Dender... why suffer FOREVER? If I were to redesign anything about the original (pre-4e) published Realms, it would be the way the deities, religions, and afterlife work. We never really got to see how Myrkul ran things, but Cyric was a poor choice for 'god of the dead' - too Judaeo-Christian for me (the whole "if you are not in heaven then you are in hell" thing). As boring as I find Kelemvor, I think he's a better choice, in that he is neutral, which a lord of the dead should be (more like Hades, which isn't always about punishment - that arrangement works better for a pantheonic setting, IMHO). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Feb 2011 20:11:52 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 20:12:02
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| I like Kelemvor better simply because he isn't one of the "Oooooh, death is scary!" types of death deities. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 20:12:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
which makes me wonder why anyone bothers to worship a god who's Realm is basically the 'hell' for all other gods
"Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven." |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 20:16:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I like Kelemvor better simply because he isn't one of the "Oooooh, death is scary!" types of death deities.
I like Kelemvor and Pharasma from Golarion, for the same reason.
Pharasma |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 20:30:26
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While I don't particularly care for Kelemvor specifically, I do prefer the concept of a neutral god of death to an evil one, both from a story-telling perspective and in relation to my personal belief on the subject.
Regarding the decision to be faithless, the comparision I use is the Ori from Stargate; they demonstrate real, measurable power and knowledge on a massive scale along with direct influence. But they are rejected as gods and instead labled as "powerful alien beings". Which, granted, they are, but still. It's not unreasonable for someone to say "Yes the gods are real and powerful. But that's no reason to worship them."
Part of my question is do we have any indication of what would happen if the wall was taken down, the gods lost their power and faded from existance? Would everything fall apart? Would devils and demons, finally unopposed by greater forces of good, consume everything? Would there be massive ghost break dancing parties? |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 20:59:24
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All the Faerūnian gods lost their power during ToT and, aside from some surface damage and crowding on the Fugue Plane, the Realms and the pantheon remained largely unaffected. Cyric allowed the wall to deteriorate under his administration and yet the cosmos didn't show signs of collapse. The Wall encircles the City of Judgement, it's obvious to everybody on the Fugue.
If the Wall, City, and Fugue fell to fiends I think there'd be a brief power struggle and a newly installed Faerūnian power of Death and Afterlife (probably a fiend). A bit of a darker twist on Faerūnian mythology, as the afterlife then becomes "you go to hell and you stay there forever unless rescued by your faith". |
[/Ayrik] |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 22:26:16
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Babies and tiny children can die in the Realms, and they wouldn't have known to choose a patron god or goddess. So I guess they become Kelemvor's civil servants in the afterlife. Horrible.
As for the Wall, I'm pretty much on the "side" that says it's an evil thing. It made some sense to have it as a punishment while Myrkul was in charge, but Kelemvor's pretty much a hypocrite for keeping it. |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 22:32:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Babies and tiny children can die in the Realms, and they wouldn't have known to choose a patron god or goddess. So I guess they become Kelemvor's civil servants in the afterlife. Horrible.
Actually, I believe Ed said that in such cases, they go to their parents' patron deity.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
As for the Wall, I'm pretty much on the "side" that says it's an evil thing. It made some sense to have it as a punishment while Myrkul was in charge, but Kelemvor's pretty much a hypocrite for keeping it.
Well, what else is he supposed to do with the souls of those who refuse to believe in deities? Going to your patron deity's realm is a reward for your faith -- so if you don't have that faith, or you betray it, then you don't get rewarded.
It may take a while, but those in the Wall eventually get destroyed. So it's not eternal damnation.
Besides, we don't know who created the Wall. That may be a decree from above -- as in, Ao -- that the deities of death have been compelled to follow. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 07 Feb 2011 22:33:18 |
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Tamsar
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
141 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 22:42:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Babies and tiny children can die in the Realms, and they wouldn't have known to choose a patron god or goddess. So I guess they become Kelemvor's civil servants in the afterlife. Horrible.
That's my biggest bone of contention with the realms afterlife. Just does not make sense. So all dead babies/children go to the wall. Utter bollocks. It's nonsensical to think that all races gods allow this to happen there should be some sort of divine provision to cater for this.
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Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 22:51:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Babies and tiny children can die in the Realms, and they wouldn't have known to choose a patron god or goddess. So I guess they become Kelemvor's civil servants in the afterlife. Horrible.
Actually, I believe Ed said that in such cases, they go to their parents' patron deity.
But what if the parents were faithless? 
I think that would make one HELL OF A STORY.
Think of it - a celestial conundrum of what to do with the little soul of a faithless baby. Innocent, with nowhere to go. that would be an epic tear-jerker, I'm thinking.
Hey! I think we just found the Realms version of Casper. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Feb 2011 22:55:10 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 23:04:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Babies and tiny children can die in the Realms, and they wouldn't have known to choose a patron god or goddess. So I guess they become Kelemvor's civil servants in the afterlife. Horrible.
Actually, I believe Ed said that in such cases, they go to their parents' patron deity.
But what if the parents were faithless?
I think that would make one HELL OF A STORY.
Think of it - a celestial conundrum of what to do with the little soul of a faithless baby. Innocent, with nowhere to go. that would be an epic tear-jerker, I'm thinking.
Hey! I think we just found the Realms version of Casper.
<cough> grandparents <cough>
Boy, that could go back a long way huh?
You just have to make people think eh? 
My thought is that this topic is dangerous...it is hard to determine when "adulthood" sets in; so it would be hard to determine when a person is responsible for their own faith. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 00:23:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I like Kelemvor better simply because he isn't one of the "Oooooh, death is scary!" types of death deities.
Kelemvor has never really done anything for me. And while I did prefer Myrkul [which is why he is still largely the God of the Dead in my Realms], I have been thinking of introducing a new level of operation/function for the dead of the Realms -- which may also require a new God of the Dead. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 00:25:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Regarding the decision to be faithless, the comparision I use is the Ori from Stargate; they demonstrate real, measurable power and knowledge on a massive scale along with direct influence. But they are rejected as gods and instead labled as "powerful alien beings". Which, granted, they are, but still. It's not unreasonable for someone to say "Yes the gods are real and powerful. But that's no reason to worship them."
Kinda like the Athar of Planescape.
The Ori are an interesting point to consider though. Certainly, some of their servants considered them to be almost gods. Their individual level of reverence definitely made that apparent. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 00:31:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Babies and tiny children can die in the Realms, and they wouldn't have known to choose a patron god or goddess. So I guess they become Kelemvor's civil servants in the afterlife. Horrible.
Actually, I believe Ed said that in such cases, they go to their parents' patron deity.
Indeed. There's several points of discussion in Ed's 06 replies.
quote:
Besides, we don't know who created the Wall. That may be a decree from above -- as in, Ao -- that the deities of death have been compelled to follow.
I don't think it's just a matter of "who created the Wall." In fact, I've laid suggestions in my own campaigns that the Wall itself, has always been there, and was simply a foundation of the Fugue Plane. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Arzakon
Seeker
Spain
58 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 01:38:56
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But even if the Wall was always there, even if it's Ao's creation or not... well, there's still a big problem. Good gods should not only care about their worshippers, as their own alignment, as described in most D&D books, is that of sacrifice, altruism, an so on. If a paladin is supposed to behave honorably and respectful even when he's facing truly evil people, offering redemption, why not a god? What if a faithless is a good guy, performed good deeds like no other believer, even helped a lot some priests...? I think it's a bit hypocritical, because, after all, if they're good gods, they should really take care even of those who do not revere them but are, at least, good-hearted. I just cannot think of any of the Triad Gods telling a soul: yep, you were good, but you didn't pay homage to me, so off with you! Helm may fit with that behavior, but not Ilmater.
I think the only real solution, at least for my FR world, is that good gods are not able to change or destroy the Wall, maybe by Ao's decree (as a neutral god, he is not obliged to look after the faithless), maybe because the wall, as Sage said, is something like say... Dendar, something awful and mysterious even for the gods. Of course, this doesn't mean they're in good terms with all this scheme, and maybe they could even try to change it from within...
Anyway, I'm not that good for questions of Realms cosmology, but that's my humble opinion. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 02:33:07
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It's a simple rule: believe in the gods. It's not asking too much -- they're not saying everyone has to be trying to out-devout each other, just to believe and give them a little respect. You don't even have to actively worship, so long as you show some veneration.
Here's another thought... So the ultimate goal is to become one with your deity. And this strenghtens your deity. Maybe the Wall is used to maintain the Fugue Plane? Maybe the binding of souls to the Wall, and their eventual dissolution, is what keeps the Fugue there for all the other deities.
It would be a grim irony: those who don't acknowledge the gods wind up supporting those who do, until the latter can be claimed. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 08:48:34
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| To answer Arzakon: an atheist whose alignment and deeds, in life, served the portfolio of an established power (good or evil or whatever) might still be deemed "worthy" and approached by the power's servants with an offer of afterlife. Perhaps even approached by the servants of several powers. Then approached by baatezu and whatever bargain they offer. Only by refusing all of these would the atheist be deemed Faithless and stuffed into the Wall. So the Wall is a fate suffered by only the most unworthy or stubborn souls. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 13:33:18
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| The wall is a part of tyrannical gods-system imposed in Realmspace, its only worth is that it will be torn down one day. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 14:05:00
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I like the idea that souls in the Wall ultimately dissolve into the essence and substance of the Fugue Plane. Put all those unworthy and unwanted souls (spiritual garbage) into something useful. Faerūnian gods are notorious for being a bit narrow-minded in perspective and "blind" to anything that falls outside their divine interest (ergo the ToT Avatar Crisis) ... so they wouldn't be much aware or concerned with the ultimate fate of those who didn't/don't recognize their divine status.
I think the Wall was probably initially constructed by Jergal, though that's just my speculation.
As noted above, it's not unreasonable to ask (require) that you pick one of the gods when living proof of their existence can be seen every day, especially when the Wall itself serves as a clear message, described by doctrine and plainly visible to everyone who arrives on the Fugue. To refuse the gods entirely would indicate complete denial, disbelief, spiritual incapacity, or stupidity, in which case you obviously didn't believe in any afterlife anyhow so who cares about your fate. An anomaly would be worshippers of Shar ... wouldn't they prefer complete and utter oblivion (after aeons in the Wall) to an eternal afterlife in the darkness? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Feb 2011 14:08:17 |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 15:02:24
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| The Wall, and those who maintain it, are evil. It is not good to require a weaker being to serve you or face torment. It is not belief that gets you an afterlife, its service. And who could blame a guy for not wanting to serve the useless prats that are the Faerunian gods? |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 15:37:58
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lol, agreed, the Faerūnian pantheon are a bunch of useless prats and the Realms have suffered a lot of hardships because of them.
But they do guarantee (effectively) eternal afterlife. Doubters can even speak with dead or travel the planes to see for themselves. And these gods reward their faithful in life in some very tangible, definite ways; their followers even get a medical package. That's a lot more than the vague promises made by some other gods and pantheons (who, incidentally, usually also require you worship them or suffer eternal punishment).
As humans, we require plants and animals to sustain us, we feed upon them, we even cultivate and harvest them. There really isn't much alternative, since we have to eat if we want to survive (and not by eating other humans). We are sometimes concerned about how our living food is treated, generally preferring that needless cruelty and suffering are avoided. There are some among us who refuse to consume certain kinds of foods due to moral principles, these are viewed as perhaps enlightened or perhaps foolish, some dwindle into weakness when diets are chosen without great care.
The same applies to the gods. We are not exactly "cattle" to them, but we are part of an essential symbiosis which keeps them alive and which they have to cultivate. The fates of the comparatively few who are put to the Wall do not concern the gods overmuch, especially since these few are spiritually non nutritious, unpalatable, perhaps even poisonous.
Are the gods then crueler than humans? Is it evil for them to continue using humans to survive? The Wall is part of a package deal: you can take it (along with many other and much "happier" afterlives) or you can reject it, either gambling that some other mythology will offer something better or simply face an inescapable final oblivion. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Feb 2011 16:27:59 |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 16:23:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Arzakon
But even if the Wall was always there, even if it's Ao's creation or not... well, there's still a big problem. Good gods should not only care about their worshippers, as their own alignment, as described in most D&D books, is that of sacrifice, altruism, an so on. If a paladin is supposed to behave honorably and respectful even when he's facing truly evil people, offering redemption, why not a god?
Gods do this too.
In the Empyrean Odyssey Triologie a Deva captured Aliisza to give her unborn child the chance grow up in Tyrs court and choose his own life aside from the evil life of his parents.
So I would guess the would do the same with souls too. The common folk just doesn't know this. |
Edited by - _Jarlaxle_ on 08 Feb 2011 16:26:38 |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 16:25:28
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| But the question posed was not, "are men evil"... but are the gods. To torment a sentient being because it chose not to sustain you or your brethren with its supplication is evil. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 16:30:33
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| They are also, in many ways, created by (or at least shaped by) humans. Even the most altruistic humans are sometimes forced to deal with serious criminals and outcasts who defy the rules of enlightened society. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 16:52:50
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I like Kelemvor better simply because he isn't one of the "Oooooh, death is scary!" types of death deities.
Kelemvor has never really done anything for me. And while I did prefer Myrkul [which is why he is still largely the God of the Dead in my Realms], I have been thinking of introducing a new level of operation/function for the dead of the Realms -- which may also require a new God of the Dead.
I do not like Kelemvor. I didn't like him when he was mortal, simply because I found him boring. Unfortunately, 'boring' fits a truly neutral deity of the dead.
I do still prefer Myrkul, and will consider splitting the portfolio between 'death' and 'gaurdian of the Dead'. Death itself should be more of an enigma (like Jergal), IMHO.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Babies and tiny children can die in the Realms, and they wouldn't have known to choose a patron god or goddess. So I guess they become Kelemvor's civil servants in the afterlife. Horrible.
Actually, I believe Ed said that in such cases, they go to their parents' patron deity.
But what if the parents were faithless?
I think that would make one HELL OF A STORY.
Think of it - a celestial conundrum of what to do with the little soul of a faithless baby. Innocent, with nowhere to go. that would be an epic tear-jerker, I'm thinking.
Hey! I think we just found the Realms version of Casper.
<cough> grandparents <cough>
Not sure if that would work; the 'cosmic thread' has been broken once the parents lost their faith. I would think it would have to be a continuous chain of worship.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
My thought is that this topic is dangerous...it is hard to determine when "adulthood" sets in; so it would be hard to determine when a person is responsible for their own faith.
For all things cosmic (and most things civil), I accept 13 as the 'age of majority'. Just my personal feelings on the matter (probably due to being raised Christian, which is based in Judaism).
I would assume that on a world like Toril, where 'The Gods' are self-evident, parents would stress the importance of religion on their children, at least as much as religion was stressed in Medieval Europe. Most would probably try to get their kids to follow their own gods (naturally), but in more 'cosmopolitan' areas (like Waterdeep or Silverymoon) it may be more along the lines of "it's your choice who you worship, but you MUST be faithful to something".
Life is short (even to elves, relatively), but the afterlife is forever. NOT planing for it would be very stupid. Unlike our real world, people on D&D worlds have PROOF of their Hells, and any sane person would want to avoid them.
How does that quote go? Satan's Greatest Victory Has Been in Convincing People He Doesn't Exist." He hasn't managed to achieve this on D&D worlds. 
I just saw some of Ed's lore in the "Ask a Stupid Question" thread, and I find it interesting he used Lucifer. My own streamlined cosmology has three main 'Hells', ruled by Asmodeus, Lucifer (Hades), and Satan (left to right). The idea is there is one Outer Plane for each alignment, which simplifies things quite a bit. People go to the plane which matches their alignment at death (which leads to interesting things occasionally, when people have last-minute changes of heart, or are wearing a magical device that shifts their alignment).
I'll be home in a week, and I have some ideas about a complete overhaul of my cosmology, many ideas of which originated in the Fey thread. That cosmology there is about five years old now, and its time for an update. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Feb 2011 17:00:52 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 16:54:12
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Enter the philosophy degree: This thread is starting to sound like some of the philosophy discussions of the Problem of Evil. I won't post much about that, except to put in a link if anyone's curious.
And not to bring too much RL religion into it, but the "babies get condemned to the wall" thing has always reminded me of the Catholic "babies go to limbo" thing, which is unsettling and I'm not sure appropriate in our beloved Realms.
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
The Wall, and those who maintain it, are evil. It is not good to require a weaker being to serve you or face torment. It is not belief that gets you an afterlife, its service.
^^^ This.
I'm not one of those people who values independence/freedom over everything else, but I do recognize the value of that philosophy and how important it is to some. Sure, maybe the gods aren't asking that much of you, but what gives them the right to ask *anything*? They're powerful, but does might make right? How can any of them call themselves *good* if they carrot/stick mortals into bowing to their wishes?
The foundation of goodness is, IMO, respect, and I rather think any "good" deity that is worthy of worship (not just respect, but WORSHIP) would respect mortals enough to offer them this choice without threatening them with consequences if they don't choose the deity's way.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 08 Feb 2011 17:19:47 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 17:04:19
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Which is why my own Homebrew cosmology sends souls to the plane they are closest to their temperament (alignment), and is not based upon who or what you worshiped.
Only the truly worthy (servants and heroes of the god) get to join the deity in their realm, and this is VERY rare.
A lot of this is based upon my own RW feelings on the subject, since I have studied many religions and philosophies, I cannot say there is a 'right one', which fits in to what Erik is saying about gods forcing mortals to worship them.
My take is that religion is a sham, and in the end, you go where YOU think you should go (in other words, you judge yourself). At least, this is how I've worked things out in D&D. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Feb 2011 17:08:32 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 17:08:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Which is why my own Homebrew cosmology sends souls to the plane they are closest to their temperament (alignment), and is not based upon who or what you worshiped.
Only the truly worthy (servants and heroes of the god) get to join the deity in their realm, and this is VERY rare.
I like that idea...and think I'm going to save the wall for hypocrites who SAY that they worship a god...but only do so for show. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Morality of the Wall of the Faithless
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