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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Apr 2013 : 20:44:19
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According to the old rules, before 4e changed things, if you killed a god, you took the powers they had, this goes also for gods that killed gods.
If Corellon killed Gruumsh , how would he contend with the sudden domain of being over the Orcs, and how much would he be changed by such, in the same way elistree was changed from a killed vhaeraun?
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2013 : 20:53:44
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| That is not always how it worked. In the Avatar Crisis, AO decided who received which dead gods' portfolios/spheres. And I know that the rules definitely worked a little different in deity vs. deity death opposed to mortal vs. deity death. Overall, I think it is AO who chooses if an entity gets to keep a dead deity's portfolio. |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2013 : 22:03:34
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| I think also that the victorious god can decline the defeated gods portfolio. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2013 : 22:28:26
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| As I understood the situation with Eilistraee, she chose to absorb (at least part of) Vhaeraun's portfolio in order to 'save' more drow. I also recall reading in one FR novel that elevating a mortal to godhood required AO's approval...although I think he is rather flexible on that score. I highly doubt Corellon would absorb Gruumsh's power as this would require a drastic change to his fundamental nature. Perhaps he would 'give' that power to another deity in exchange for certain favors to be called on in the future (again with AO's approval). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2013 : 22:30:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
I think also that the victorious god can decline the defeated gods portfolio.
Or can put a different spin on it, the way Finder did when he offed Moander. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2013 : 22:59:20
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I think it also depends on if that god wants the portfolio of the god he killed. Cyric, for example, wanted to be the god of death (among other things), and as The Arcanamach said, Eilistraee absorbed at least part of Vhaeraun's power to "save" the drow. That case is actually kind of interesting though, and I think of it more of a merging than an actual death on Vhaeraun's part.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2013 : 06:35:18
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As Hawkins' said, Ao pretty much has free reign over the deities, and nothing really happens without his knowledge or consent. Over all, Ao seems to be pretty lenient and deferential to the deities, but we don't really know enough to really answer the question definitively.
It's conceivable that Ao could force a portfolio onto another deity for any reason. So, if Corellon killed Gruumsh and he attempted to refuse one or more of his portfolios, Ao could say, 'No, suck it up. You're God of the Orcs now.' ...and there may not be a lot Corellon could do about it.
It's unlikely Ao would do such a thing, but he could have higher unexplained reasons for doing it. We know that Ao has others that he answers too, and we have no idea what rules govern him.
There is also the possibility, as Wooly points out, of a deity taking an old portfolio and putting his own spin on it. However, we don't know if the 'new spin' requires Ao's consent or not.
So, in the end, there is only really one correct answer to your question. That answer is this: It works exactly the way you say it works in your version of the Realms.
That may not satisfy you if you're looking for a strictly canonical response, but the truth is... we just don't know, and it's better to keep it mysterious from a setting perspective. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2013 : 11:30:50
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| One fact that I want to bring is that the god(dess) can choose to absorb the portfolio and essence of the defeated deity, right, but can do it inadvertedly or not fully conscious of the consequences. An example is Selvetarm, who was neutral, almost good, and was deceived by Lolth into absorbing a demon spider godling to impress Eilistraee, and ended up becoming evil and insane from them on. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 18 Apr 2013 11:31:30 |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2013 : 14:31:50
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| I think that's the very reason that Tempus hasn't killed Garagos, because he doesn't want to absorb the darker facets of war which Garagos represents. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2013 : 14:50:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Venger
I think that's the very reason that Tempus hasn't killed Garagos, because he doesn't want to absorb the darker facets of war which Garagos represents.
Facets that Targus/Garagos himself probably absorbed from other deity or entity in the past, since his portfolio in the days of Netheril was more like Tempus' in the present(?) Realms. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2013 : 01:50:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
It's conceivable that Ao could force a portfolio onto another deity for any reason. So, if Corellon killed Gruumsh and he attempted to refuse one or more of his portfolios, Ao could say, 'No, suck it up. You're God of the Orcs now.' ...and there may not be a lot Corellon could do about it.
And all hell would break lose. Orcs and elves, hated enemies, are now following the same deity, who is both an orc and an elf |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2013 : 02:55:14
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quote:
It's conceivable that Ao could force a portfolio onto another deity for any reason. So, if Corellon killed Gruumsh and he attempted to refuse one or more of his portfolios, Ao could say, 'No, suck it up. You're God of the Orcs now.' ...and there may not be a lot Corellon could do about it.
From what little information we have on Ao I would find this highly doubtful. His primary concern seems to be ensuring the gods maintain the balance and adjudicating disputes between them. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2013 : 15:00:47
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I think to absorb a Gods power one has to be compatable with it, if its anthema to ones nature it will not normally happen except under special circumstances.
I'd add that when Zandilar was pregnant with her son she was absorbed into Sharess before he was born and that may have left him more suspetible to absording another being's divinity. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2013 : 16:06:23
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| Also the Goal for 5e is to bring Gods back not kill off more. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2013 : 22:12:56
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
It's conceivable that Ao could force a portfolio onto another deity for any reason. So, if Corellon killed Gruumsh and he attempted to refuse one or more of his portfolios, Ao could say, 'No, suck it up. You're God of the Orcs now.' ...and there may not be a lot Corellon could do about it.
And all hell would break lose. Orcs and elves, hated enemies, are now following the same deity, who is both an orc and an elf
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
quote:
It's conceivable that Ao could force a portfolio onto another deity for any reason. So, if Corellon killed Gruumsh and he attempted to refuse one or more of his portfolios, Ao could say, 'No, suck it up. You're God of the Orcs now.' ...and there may not be a lot Corellon could do about it.
From what little information we have on Ao I would find this highly doubtful. His primary concern seems to be ensuring the gods maintain the balance and adjudicating disputes between them.
I never said it was likely. However, we have no reason to believe that Ao couldn't force whatever portfolio's he wanted onto another deity. We know that he's responsible for giving them out, and that he has the ability to take them away.
So, it ultimately comes down to a DM's decision, and they'd need to give Ao suitable motivation (even if it's never explained and doesn't seem to make sense).
I think if Corellon was given Gruumsh's portfolio's he'd become a highly altered deity... he'd change in some big and significant ways. The other Elven deities may even band together to cast him out of the Elven Pantheon.
How and why such a thing would happen... who can say? My vote would be a treacherous power play from Luthic, where she curses Corellon and betrays Gruumsh in an attempt to rule the Orcs through her (easily manipulated) son Bahgtru. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2013 : 22:36:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
I think to absorb a Gods power one has to be compatable with it, if its anthema to ones nature it will not normally happen except under special circumstances.
I'd add that when Zandilar was pregnant with her son she was absorbed into Sharess before he was born and that may have left him more suspetible to absording another being's divinity.
Just wondering, where'd this about Zandilar being pregnant come from? Who was the child? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2013 : 22:43:20
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
I think to absorb a Gods power one has to be compatable with it, if its anthema to ones nature it will not normally happen except under special circumstances.
I'd add that when Zandilar was pregnant with her son she was absorbed into Sharess before he was born and that may have left him more suspetible to absording another being's divinity.
Just wondering, where'd this about Zandilar being pregnant come from? Who was the child?
Nm, found it, didn't realize that's where Selvetarm came from. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 00:44:01
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This premise (a god kills another god and absorbs his/her portfolio, Highlander style) is an important component of the heresy of the Threefold God from my Shadowbane series.
Not to put in a shameless plug or anything. 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 01:23:22
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| When Gruumsh killed Re, Re transferred his powers to his son, Horus, and Horus-Re was born. In the laughably impossible scenario of Corellon killing Gruumsh, I'd imagine Gruumsh would transfer his power to Obould, rather than allow the horrible abomination that would be Corelluumsh to be born. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Edited by - Chosen of Asmodeus on 20 Apr 2013 01:24:45 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 04:34:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
This premise (a god kills another god and absorbs his/her portfolio, Highlander style) is an important component of the heresy of the Threefold God from my Shadowbane series.
Not to put in a shameless plug or anything.
Cheers
I'm happy to say I picked up Eye of Justice again. I'll admit I was hesitant to continue reading it, not because I didn't like it, but because of the choices WotC has made regarding authors, and how some are being pushed to the background, so we don't know when the next Shadowbane novel will come out, right? I know you're writing it, though.
@CoA: although we likely disagree why it would be the case, I can at least agree with you that Corelluumsh would be an abomination. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 06:53:37
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I'm happy to say I picked up Eye of Justice again. I'll admit I was hesitant to continue reading it, not because I didn't like it, but because of the choices WotC has made regarding authors, and how some are being pushed to the background, so we don't know when the next Shadowbane novel will come out, right? I know you're writing it, though.
It seems odd that you would protest WotC discontinuing support for one of its authors by ceasing to support that author?
Or was it concern about the continuance of the story? Because it *will* continue--it's just a matter of time.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 07:03:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
When Gruumsh killed Re, Re transferred his powers to his son, Horus, and Horus-Re was born. In the laughably impossible scenario of Corellon killing Gruumsh, I'd imagine Gruumsh would transfer his power to Obould, rather than allow the horrible abomination that would be Corelluumsh to be born.
I was actually going to make a silly joke about "Corelluumsh" so I went to Google to search for an image of a Half-Orc Half-Elf... and then I found something awesome. I found a link to this image. Which in turn led me to a homebrewed race called the Voldur.
Now, I kinda want this to happen. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 12:56:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
This premise (a god kills another god and absorbs his/her portfolio, Highlander style) is an important component of the heresy of the Threefold God from my Shadowbane series.
Not to put in a shameless plug or anything.
Cheers
Spoiler Alert - highlight below
What does this say about the heresy of the threefold god that somehow Assuran/Hoar has been tied into it? I believe he's not around in 4E (could be wrong, I quit reading most campaign material after the 4e FRCS) |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 13:43:47
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
I think to absorb a Gods power one has to be compatable with it, if its anthema to ones nature it will not normally happen except under special circumstances.
I'd add that when Zandilar was pregnant with her son she was absorbed into Sharess before he was born and that may have left him more suspetible to absording another being's divinity.
Just wondering, where'd this about Zandilar being pregnant come from? Who was the child?
Nm, found it, didn't realize that's where Selvetarm came from.
Yeah sadly Sharess and Selvetarm mother son relationship did not turn out well in the end. Still better then Selvetarm's relationship with his father, at least Selvetarm didn't try and kill Sharess . Still doubt Sharess approved of Selvetarm hooking up with his own grandmother, especially as evil as she was. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 13:45:47
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| Hoar works for Bane in 4e and is now of evil alignment, not lawful nuetral in 4e. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 15:15:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
When Gruumsh killed Re, Re transferred his powers to his son, Horus, and Horus-Re was born. In the laughably impossible scenario of Corellon killing Gruumsh, I'd imagine Gruumsh would transfer his power to Obould, rather than allow the horrible abomination that would be Corelluumsh to be born.
I was actually going to make a silly joke about "Corelluumsh" so I went to Google to search for an image of a Half-Orc Half-Elf... and then I found something awesome. I found a link to this image. Which in turn led me to a homebrewed race called the Voldur.
Now, I kinda want this to happen.
There's a book by Rite Publishing called In the Company of Monsters. It presents several alternative playable racial classes: gargoyles, giants, ironborn, minotaurs, restless souls (people who died and were brought back, but aren't quite as they were before), and the wyrd. The latter race is a crossbred race that's bred true; they are descended from the forced union of elves and ogre magi. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 16:52:34
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
According to the old rules, before 4e changed things, if you killed a god, you took the powers they had, this goes also for gods that killed gods.
Actually that was only how it usually happened, but 2e Faith&Avatars already said that this was not the rule. So you could kill a deity and end up empty handed for all your efforts.
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 17:18:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Venger
I think that's the very reason that Tempus hasn't killed Garagos, because he doesn't want to absorb the darker facets of war which Garagos represents.
Basically killing Garoagos would lead to one of three results and neither are pleasant for Tempus:
a) The spoils go to Tempus. That would mean that Tempus would have to take on the darker aspects of war that he's currently glad about being handled by someone else and not him.
b) The spoils go to the next best suitable entity. That could be Gruumsh for example. Now instead of having a demigod of war that he can easily hold in check and is no threat to wrestle the total portfolio from him, Tempus suddenly has to face a fellow greater power that now has a stake in taking the complete portfolio from him.
c) as b) except that it goes to an entity about as powerful as Garagos was. Not such a threat as version b), but also just a return to the status quo and thus killing Garagos was all for nothing |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 23:57:34
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quote:
silverwolfer
According to the old rules, before 4e changed things, if you killed a god, you took the powers they had, this goes also for gods that killed gods.
Well, no. The 2E Realms installed the premise of Ao-whimsically-giveth-and-taketh-away. 3E Realms had several examples of powers using other powers as pawns in games where yet other powers swooped in to steal the prize. Come to think of it, even AD&D (1E) and some of D&D (Basic, Expert, etc) modules were based on godly power games where power was seized and stolen by other gods ... and let's not even mention rather detailed rules within the D&D Immortals material.
If a god is destroyed then most often that god's power is up for grabs, and most often the first person to grab at it is the godslayer. But sometimes the power is destroyed, or distributed, simply dissipates, or is assimilated within some other deity. Or can even spontaneously catalyze into a new god the way Mystra sometimes does.
Also remember that game rules and game settings and Forgotten Realms are distinct things, and though they overlap, there is no requirement for (indeed, no example of) a strict correlation between them, especially when dealing with details which the designers/authors have very deliberately left vague. |
[/Ayrik] |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2013 : 00:07:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I'm happy to say I picked up Eye of Justice again. I'll admit I was hesitant to continue reading it, not because I didn't like it, but because of the choices WotC has made regarding authors, and how some are being pushed to the background, so we don't know when the next Shadowbane novel will come out, right? I know you're writing it, though.
It seems odd that you would protest WotC discontinuing support for one of its authors by ceasing to support that author?
Or was it concern about the continuance of the story? Because it *will* continue--it's just a matter of time.
Cheers
Oh, I never meant to suggest that I wouldn't support the author! Of course I do, and I have the book, so it's not as though I didn't buy it. I was planning to continue reading it, because I greatly enjoy it. All that intrigue! I was just waiting, I guess you could say. I know you're working on the next one, but since Wizards is focusing on the Sundering, it just sounded like, to me at least, the other pending series wouldn't be getting published any time soon, and that's why I was waiting until the "time got closer". That was the impression I got. I never meant to give the impression that I don't support you or the other authors. There are series I would really like to see continue.
But I'm reading it, and am 82% through, based on my Kindle And this way I could post those reviews you encourage us to do  And I also realized it would likely be beneficial for me to finish it before the Sundering happened lol. My goal is to finish all pre-Sundering novels before the Companions. Not sure if I'll make it, but I'll try. At least I can get most of them. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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The nightmare no one has considered......
