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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 21:51:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
or does this go too far in terms of OGL?
http://www.rpgobjects.com/index.php?page=ww2
I know this has nothing to do with core products or anything, but I think this is too twisted to be dismissed. Why the blazing hell would anyone want to produce such BS? let alone play in that era?
Actually I can remember seeing a WW2 campaign published in Dragon/Dungeon magazine ahile ago basicly it was an alternate history thing where Americans, Britsh, Japanese and Germans start breeding "Super Soldiers" to fight the war |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 22:25:27
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| There are Second World War films and prose fiction, why not roleplaying games? It doesn't look a particularly tasteless treatment. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 22:31:33
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| I just wait until someone comes up with d20 Vietnam or something. Recon back in the day was wrong enough. There are just some things that shouldn't be touched in a RPG, at least that's my opinion |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 22:34:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
I just wait until someone comes up with d20 Vietnam or something. Recon back in the day was wrong enough. There are just some things that shouldn't be touched in a RPG, at least that's my opinion
Theres already D20 Afganistan
http://www.rpgshop.com/product_info.php?products_id=31073& |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 22:36:59
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| Mace, do you feel the same way about other media, or is it something in particular about RPGs? |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 22:46:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
I just wait until someone comes up with d20 Vietnam or something. Recon back in the day was wrong enough. There are just some things that shouldn't be touched in a RPG, at least that's my opinion
I'm with Mace on this one.
For me RPG is Fantasy based not Real Life.
Plus I don't think people will take to it so it's a doomed bad idea.
Delz
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 22:57:08
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| A lot of gamers have a particular fascination with real-world warfare. It's not my scene, but I don't see a big deal about wanting to RP in WWII -- though certain aspects of it would certainly have to be handled with care, so as not to offend particular groups. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 23:48:02
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Delzounblood -- so you think there's a necessary link between the medium of roleplaying games and the genre of heroic fantasy? I don't think the link is more than a historical accident.
As it happens, I think militarists are the last people who should be roleplaying (or simming, or whatever) historical wars. But I can't see any objection in principle. |
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Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 00:43:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
I just wait until someone comes up with d20 Vietnam or something. Recon back in the day was wrong enough. There are just some things that shouldn't be touched in a RPG, at least that's my opinion
Sorry to say Mace, but Vietnam was already done as an RPG. Back in the early 1980's, there was a small-press role-playing game Recon had rules for both Vietnam and modern era play. Palladium games later came out with a 2nd edition of the game.
Recon included modules called The Haiphong H.A.L.O. and Hearts and Minds that were both set in 'Nam. Each covered various opperational regions of Vietnam and were based on the actual orders of battle for those areas.
Likewise, WWII as an RPG has been done several times before as well. Probably the best game was Behind Enemy Lines, which was produced by FASA. One of the interesting things I remember about this game was that the rulebooks were made to look like army field manuals.
Personally, I've got no problem with RPG's that explore real life eras and events, but I can see where no everyone is going to have the same outlook. While it's certainly not everyone's cup of tea, I hardly think it's "too twisted to be dismissed." But, you're welcome to your opinion. |
"Over the Mountains
Of the Moon
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride,"
The shade replied,
"If you seek for Eldorado!"
Edgar Allen Poe - 1849 |
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Dreamstalker
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 00:52:32
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I agree with Halidan on this one. Roleplaying games got their start out of miniatures games which in turn originated in simulations of real life wars. Quite a few people in the military are actually ardent Roleplayers. My friend in the navy says when they go out to sea the first week him and the other nerdier people are made fun of for their hobby. As the months go on the game spreads like wild fire when people get a little tired of the Halo fests. A number of the people I know in the 30s discovered DnD in the military due to similar situations.
Certainly such games are not for people who may be suffering PTSD or similar conditions, however I do not see the overall harm nor disrespect in general. Such wars are fully covered in Video Games. Why not RPGs?
Regardless, to each his own:)
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 01:22:27
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I prefer fantasy games, so historical war games really aren't my cup of tea. However, like some others I really can't argue against the morality of a WWII game, or an Afganistan game, or a Somalia game, even though I probably wouldn't be entirely comfortable playing a game in such settings.
However, I do agree that a WWII game (or a war-torn, terrorist-infested nation game) would come with a lot of cultural baggage attached, and I can see how people might be easily offended or at least feel sensitive when certain subjects are touched on. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 11 Jan 2007 01:23:34 |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 03:35:46
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Rinonalyrna hit the nail on the head there, it will come with a lot of baggage. I think there's nothing wrong with it, although I'd say they should be very careful how they word everything and at the moment it seems a bit too much like 'be the heroes and fight for victory against the evil nazis', which paints a rather simple Good vs Evil shade on the whole thing.
Also I have no idea what this means, but is it accusing Nazis of witchcraft??
quote:
Interlaced with these core products will be numerous other products, designed to tie the war into RPGObjects' existing d20 Modern lines: books on Nazi Mysticism to allow you to better use Blood and Relics with our WWII books;
There's been plenty of less than pleasent events in history, and I don't see how roleplaying in this certain era is any different. Sure we have our fantasy world here in the realms, where we can if we wish fully describe the brutality done by evil organisations, the book of vile darkness, raping and pillaging, and all the other nasty things going on in the realms. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 05:31:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
Also I have no idea what this means, but is it accusing Nazis of witchcraft??
quote:
Interlaced with these core products will be numerous other products, designed to tie the war into RPGObjects' existing d20 Modern lines: books on Nazi Mysticism to allow you to better use Blood and Relics with our WWII books;
I've personally not done any research on the matter, but the idea that the Germans were researching the supernatural during WWII is something I've seen before. While I've also seen references to both the US and Russia doing at times since then, there does seem to be a certain fascination with the idea of WWII Germany doing it. I'm not sure if this is because they did look in that direction, or if it was just rumored that they did, but I know I've seen references to this pop up in various fantasy and sci-fi novels. Heck, I've even incorporated the idea into the backstory of this urban fantasy mage organization I've been fiddling with.
Having said that... Let me put on my mod hat for a second. No one has really said anything worrisome yet, but I would like to remind people that this whole topic is obviously going to be a sensitive subject for some. So think about what you're saying before you say it.  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 07:21:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've personally not done any research on the matter, but the idea that the Germans were researching the supernatural during WWII is something I've seen before. While I've also seen references to both the US and Russia doing at times since then, there does seem to be a certain fascination with the idea of WWII Germany doing it. I'm not sure if this is because they did look in that direction, or if it was just rumored that they did, but I know I've seen references to this pop up in various fantasy and sci-fi novels. Heck, I've even incorporated the idea into the backstory of this urban fantasy mage organization I've been fiddling with.
Having said that... Let me put on my mod hat for a second. No one has really said anything worrisome yet, but I would like to remind people that this whole topic is obviously going to be a sensitive subject for some. So think about what you're saying before you say it.
Amazon has quiet a few books discussing Hilter and the occult, so there must be some records that he was interested in the occult. Course, reading over the entries, it looks like a lot of them are books to debunk that he was ever interested in the occult. So, who knows. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 11 Jan 2007 07:34:02 |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 10:38:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Delzounblood -- so you think there's a necessary link between the medium of roleplaying games and the genre of heroic fantasy? I don't think the link is more than a historical accident.
As it happens, I think militarists are the last people who should be roleplaying (or simming, or whatever) historical wars. But I can't see any objection in principle.
My post was, as it says My Own Opinion and I happen to agree with Mace again as I said.
For me RPG is fantasy based, yes there are historical references ie: Knights in shinning armour etc, but real events like WWII I think should not be touched, It still holds to much feeling in modern day society. going further back in history then if you want to recreate the Roman Empire and play Emperor go ahead and knock yourself out but don't mess with events that we still think about!
IMO
Delz
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 11:05:00
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First off: I know Recon, it was produced by Palladium books. I've played Recon as well...about 15 years ago.
The inherent danger I see in this kind of RPG is that it actually might speak to the REALLY wrong crowd. Would you like to hear players of that game talk about their soldier 5/SS-Officer 3 and how many jews he killed in that raid they did into the ghetto of Warsaw? I don't.
That is the inherent danger in that topic especially, but if you take the Vietnam example, I (with my twisted mind) can imagine a player of a Vietnam-based RPG saying how cool it was when the party hit that village with napalm and how many xp they got for that. Sure it sounds more like Knights of the Dinner Table-esque talk, but is that scenario so unlikely? I think not. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Weiser_Cain
Seeker
87 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 11:07:55
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| You can't control what people do with their free time. And I don't think you should try to. |
I'm always the Wizard! |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
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Weiser_Cain
Seeker
87 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 12:14:25
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Why is that the only other option? You can not support something without trying to destroy it. I’m offended by stuff in regular dnd (I change that stuff in my games).
If you can avoid it game wise and it doesn’t affect your real life, let it go.
I just noticed you’re from germany but I can’t see this as any more twisted than a lot of the stuff that goes on in game if you step back and look at it. At the end of the day a rational person isn’t going to be any more likely to do the things they do in game in reality whether the bad guy is an Orc or a Nazi. I mean there are civil war RPG’s out there and the south still hasn’t risen.
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I'm always the Wizard! |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 12:29:53
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Playing in this kind of historical context has its dangers...would you not take offense if a German WWII PrC is the above mentioned SS-Officer, or the KZ-Guard. What if there were scenarios out there where you'd have to start out in a concentration camp, as a Nazi and your job was to propel the holocaust. I hope you agree that this would be too sick.
I dunno if you remember, but about a decade ago there was a game out there called Reich Star, or some such title... it dealt with a possible future in which the Third Reich had won the war and now the characters were resistance fighters trying to overthrow Nazi rule. It wasn't something I wanted to play, but at least the prospect was something different.
This RPG-add-on gives you the option to play the ones who caused the holocaust. I doubt that anyone who has ever been to see a concentration camp and visit the Holocaust Museum in DC, and really knows something about this era would support such a game.
And I am uncertain as to what this sentence "You can not support something without trying to destroy it" means... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Weiser_Cain
Seeker
87 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 12:54:48
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| It's a personal choice, whether or not I would dig it doesn't matter. |
I'm always the Wizard! |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 13:22:39
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Perhaps. Then again it's only because those matters are so close to home that they might seem so wrong. Part of a mature role playing experience is being able to seperate yourself and your character from whats going on.
Just one question for you Mace. How do you feel about playing evil campaigns/characters in D&D, involving slaughter, torture, etc etc? |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 13:30:43
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Yes, it is a personal choice, yes, I cannot do anything about it, and the gamer in me is undecided, the writer in me even more so, especially since I enjoy alternate history stories too much.
But, in all honesty, I don't wanna see a bunch of neo-Nazis in my FLGS...hell, would you still call it OK if they did a LARP with that, people with swaztikas and the woiks... the potential for people with a political agenda playing and publishing material for this, and making it available is a little too high, I think.
Hell, maybe they'll release d20 KKK next... I dunno, I think their are ethical boundaries that should be observed. If you can play Nazis in a game, not on the abstract tabletop/counters and maps level, but ROLE-play it, there are enough people out there who still believe whites are superior to others, and do you wanna pour gas on that flame? |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 13:38:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
Just one question for you Mace. How do you feel about playing evil campaigns/characters in D&D, involving slaughter, torture, etc etc?
Never played such a campaign...
Could I? I think so, but actually playing abominable evil is different from what most people play when they pretend they play evil. I write, so naturally my imagination is very vivid and twisted, it has to be. But would I wanna play a psychopath or a rapist in a game...No.
I want to enjoy my games, and just the thought of playing someone like that makes me ill... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 15:58:03
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I appreciate your reservations about the game Mace, but I think that any game - including fantasy, SF, historical, superhero and modern can (and will) be abused by a small fraction of the gaming public. Having run several FLGS and judged at genCon for more than 20 years, I can't begin to count the number of times I've heard gamers bragging about the attrocities they've performed on the innocents of some game setting.
To me, there is little difference between slaughtering unarmed Vargar civilians in Traveler with gauss rifles, killing fleeing French peasants in C&S, killing inocent goblin women 7 children in D&D and/or killing of civilians and prisioners in a WWII game. All these examples make me cringe and wonder about the morals of these supposed "gamers." Taking glee over the suffering of any innocents is wrong - regaurdless of setting or timeframe.
That being said, it's not the publishers who are responsible for how their games and setting are abused by a small minority of gamers. It's the small number of sick gamers and DM's who catter to their whims.
With only a couple of exceptions that I can think of (the High School RPG that Erol Otis illustrated in the early 1980's is one) most publishers expect their games to be used in a respectable and enjoyable manner. From what I can see from the product descriptions at the link, I'm sure that the d20 WWII game you've focused on is no exception.
The game doesn't seem to cater to Neo-Nazi's or folks who want to run concentration camps. In fact, given that all of the announced suppliments focus on the Allied powers of the war, I suspect that the games "bad guys" will be the Axis powers. Whether or not that turns out to be true will have to wait for the games publication. But for now, I'm willing to give them the benefit of doubt. |
"Over the Mountains
Of the Moon
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride,"
The shade replied,
"If you seek for Eldorado!"
Edgar Allen Poe - 1849 |
Edited by - Halidan on 11 Jan 2007 20:19:50 |
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Dreamstalker
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 17:26:48
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Every subject is going to be sensitive to somebody. The sheer idea of roleplaying magic offends some people, and they are still sizable number of people, including those who believe in some of the practices.
Protraying Nazis as main characters in roleplaying games is no worse than protraying them as main characters in movies and plays. Always there are going to be people who take it too far and say very horrible things in front of people who are going to be offended. This is inevitable regardless of what the source material is.
As for drawing Neo-Nazis into the gaming world this unfortunately is already far past done. Apparently the ideas of certain races being inherintly better than others, or inherintly evil and appropriate for the slaughter and so on attracted a few of these peoples.
Seriously though I am not worried about games focussed on horrific subjects tarnishing the image of our industry or drawing the wrong sorts of people into our FLGS. They are probably already there, just as in every aspect of life. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2007 : 04:20:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
This RPG-add-on gives you the option to play the ones who caused the holocaust. I doubt that anyone who has ever been to see a concentration camp and visit the Holocaust Museum in DC, and really knows something about this era would support such a game.
I've visited Auschwitz-Birkenau, I'm reasonably acquainted with the era, and no, I wouldn't want to roleplay a Nazi, and would be suspicious of any campaign in which people did.
But actors do play Nazis in theatre, television and film. To make this taboo in roleplaying would, first, contribute to the fetishization of Nazism, which I don't need to tell you is bad. It would also be a form of denial, and the last thing we want to do is aid the forgetting of the war's lessons. And it would unjustifiedly single out RPGs as a medium somehow less able to cope with sensitive subjects, which would be no good thing either.
(Then, what about The Price of Freedom? Right-libertarian propaganda in Commie-occupied America!)quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not sure if this is because they did look in that direction, or if it was just rumored that they did...
To quote John Michael Greer:quote:
While the more extreme claims about occult influence on Nazism (and vice versa) can be discarded, a certain core of hard fact remains. The following points have been solidly documented:
(a) The ideology of Nazi Germany was largely borrowed from German and Austrian secret societies involved in Ariosophy, a racist offshoot of Theosophy that emerged around the beginning of the twentieth century;
(b) The Nazi Party itself was originally a political arm of the Thule-Gesellschaft, a secret society closely connected to the most important German Ariosophical magical order;
(c) Important members of the Nazi Party, including Hitler himself, were directly and personally involved in occult studies of one sort or another.
Beyond that, there's a lot of uncertainty. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2007 : 08:26:41
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If the topic would be dealt with respectfully, and (in a way) educational, it might be a different matter. No, I wouldn't want this a taboo, but, to me, it still feels "wrong".
Maybe that's just me
Oh, and i I understood the ariosophy comments on wikipedia correctly, Hitler was one of those who didn't believe in the crap, at least according to his writings and statements. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2007 : 17:51:03
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| Again quoting Greer, "Hitler's writings and recorded comments show that he had nothing but contempt for the völkisch wing of Ariosophy, the branch that sought to revive ancient German paganism and folk tradition". That doesn't alter the fact that his interest in occultism, before and after he came to power, is well attested. The degree of his magical participation is a matter of scholarly controversy. |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2007 : 16:18:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
I just wait until someone comes up with d20 Vietnam or something. Recon back in the day was wrong enough. There are just some things that shouldn't be touched in a RPG, at least that's my opinion
I don't understand, do you mean that real-life war scenarios should not be roleplayed? Or do you think there's something specific about some wars that makes roleplaying problematic? (If its the latter, you should probably keep in mind that for most Americans, Vietnam is a painful failure, not a shameful atrocity that stains our national identity, so we might be talking past each other here). As far as the product in question is concerned, it dosn't look like its glorifying or sanitizing the Nazi regime,so I don't see a problem with it so far. |
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Is it just me...
