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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Aug 2004 : 15:34:57
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Think about it. One feat and one extra skill point per level. That feat is matched by some things that are free in other races -- for instance, the elf's weapon proficiencies, automatic searches, etc. In most cases, there is actually the equivalent of more than one feat. As for skills, most races have racial bonuses on at least one, which stack with any others.
I'm very interested to know what other scribes here have to say on this subject. I don't think it takes too much to bring the humans back into balance, but I'd like to hear what some of you think before I go into that.
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Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Wood Elf Ranger
Senior Scribe
USA
627 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2004 : 15:51:32
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Don't forget 4 extra skill points at first level  Though that doesn't really help either.
Perhaps humans should get more extra feats maybe one more every 5 levels or so?
I think your right but its hard to gauge the overall use of certain abilities that are given to different races. I know thats why they started adding on ECL's for more powerful races which seems to work out pretty well. Though I'm sure there will always be some debate as to whethere any certain race should have a higher or lower ECL.
An interesting subject though  Did you have any ideas of your own about humans? |
~Lee N.
"Breaktime yes?!.. Yes?.. Maybe?.. Noo, baaack to work.." -Grovel the Goblin from NWN: HotU |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2004 : 16:54:51
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| I'm surprised this topic hasn't come up before. When I first saw that 3E did away with racial level restrictions and racial class restrictions, I immediately wondered how they were going to balance that out. After all, those restrictions and limits were originally there to balance out the races... |
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zolansilverspear
Acolyte
Turkey
11 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2004 : 18:24:43
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And those restrictions in 2nd edition was sth I never used. In my opinion both class restriction and level restriction was just there for "balance" not for fun or reality.
That said I don't think Humans are weak. Actually the feat and skill is something quite powerfull.
If you are Dming a party that will start from L1-L3 than 1 feat can create quite a big difference if not miracels. Maybe that looses its alure for a higher level character but so does a +2 bonus for a certain skill and infravision.
And also humans breed like rats(considering the other races). If you give them more advantages you should think the bigger picture...
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Zolan "BeaR" Silverspear |
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The Blue Sorceress
Learned Scribe
107 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2004 : 19:28:01
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Never underestimate the power of a feat and extra skill points.
I'm currently playing a half-elf ranger/cleric and there are times I wished I'd gone all human because of the feats I need. I didn't get Precise Shot until 9th level and my ability to help in combat was severly hampered becasuse of it.
That said, here's how I see it working. The human extra feat works incredibly well in conjunction with certain classes. A human fighter of first level has three feats where most other classes only get one and a dwarven fighter only gets two. Said human fighter could have Power Attack, Cleave and Weapon Focus. Extra skill points are also really useful in classes that give only 2+int skill points, like Cleric, Fighter, Paladin. If you want to have those extra ranks in whatever, or get some cross-class skills, it can be very useful. Also, the special abilities of most demi-human races are of only limited use. What good is low-light vision when an elf is trying to negotiate a peace treaty? What point does a dwarf's weapon familiarity with the dwarven waraxe have when said dwarf doesn't ever use a dwarven waraxe?
-Blue |
Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely.
I see your walrus and raise you a carpenter |
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Wood Elf Ranger
Senior Scribe
USA
627 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2004 : 20:14:16
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| Half-elves are probably the most underpowered race They should get +1 Dex (or another stat depending on elf subrace) and 2 extra skill points at first level plus 1 more every other level. |
~Lee N.
"Breaktime yes?!.. Yes?.. Maybe?.. Noo, baaack to work.." -Grovel the Goblin from NWN: HotU |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2004 : 22:45:06
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Blue Sorceress is correct: I've played in the RPGA for four years now, a group where people are reknowned for their min/maxing obcession, and the majority of gamers there play with human characters.
An extra feat at 1st level means that you can qualify for a PrC three levels sooner (for those PrCs with several prerequisite feats). The extra skill points are insanely useful for rangers, rogues and bards (skills classes) and a big help for the classes with no skill points, as mentioned by Blue Sorceress.
I play demihumans for flavor, but I have yet to come upon one that matches humans in sheer power in 3E (the only exception being the Strongheart Halfling, who also gets an extra feat at 1st level -- however I would only use halflings if I'd decide to play a rogue or wizard, as the small weapons are not too useful if you are a fighter/paladin, etc.) |
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hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe
USA
758 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2004 : 00:06:47
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| The whole idea of balance comes into play at low levels. After levels 5-7 most characters balance out with other abilities, magic items, etc. From what I've experienced humans are as balanced as you can make them without making them overpowered. |
"Hurling himself upon his enemies, he terrified them with slaughter!"
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
Candlekeep proverb: If a thing is said often enough, fools aplenty will believe it to be true. |
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Karesch
Learned Scribe
Canada
199 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2004 : 02:20:50
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I would have to tend to agree that humans are fairly well balanced. As has been mentioned already, the extra skill points balances against other classes extra abilities, as those extra abilities only really come into play at the lower levels. (the +2 skill pts to certain things, etc). Lowlight vision is nice, or even darkvision, and will tend to come more into play at higher levels when one is delving into truely dangerous dungeons, which a human lacks, but I would say that extra feat compensates for that loss. A humans ability to take ANY class as a favored class is a big bonus, unlike most other races, which have a race specific favored class. Take my character for example, he's a Halruaan, which in 3E (perhaps others?) has given him wizard as a favored class, above and beyond the typically allowed favored class, thus, my character has taken fighter, and wizard as favored classes, and taken two PrC's as non-favored classes and kept them in balance with eachother. Thats a pretty big advantage I think, over most races, as it's eliminated much of the halved XP I would take otherwise. Anyhow, that's my two cents...
K |
Knowledge is power... power corrupts... knowledge corrupts? hmm...
Death is only frightening to those who haven't died yet... |
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The Blue Sorceress
Learned Scribe
107 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2004 : 03:53:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wood Elf Ranger
Half-elves are probably the most underpowered race They should get +1 Dex (or another stat depending on elf subrace) and 2 extra skill points at first level plus 1 more every other level.
I think they tried to rectify this whole thing by giving half-elves bonuses to gather information and diplomacy. They also get partial bonuses on search, spot and listen, which is nice. I've found that they make good bards and rogues, but they are underpowered I'd say. I like the skilled half-elves option from Unearthed Arcana, where it essentially gives you the human-style skill bonuses (though not a bonus feat.)
-Blue |
Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely.
I see your walrus and raise you a carpenter |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2004 : 07:28:10
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I believe that the power of humans lies in versatility.
As bookwyrm pointed out, the other other races get bonuses that might outweigh the human bonus, but the uman one can be whatever I want it to be. Elves get nifty weapon proficiency, so can I. Or get something better, like usign a weapo nbetter that I already know HOW to use. Or any of a myriad other things.
But the races that really get the shaft in my book are the half orcs and half elves. The half elves get nifty bonuses now, but at first did not. The halforc is still a sad race, as it has not even the perfunctory atttempt at flavor bonuses that the tohers have.
In my game I gave orcs and halforcs a racial weapon(Orcish Cleaver Two Handed Exotic Slashing Axe, 1d12 x4 crit) which all orcs and most halforcs are oproficient in it's use as a martial weapon.
I am also generally open to trading out racial abilities for ones thatbetter fit the character's concept. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2004 : 08:16:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Karesch
A humans ability to take ANY class as a favored class is a big bonus, unlike most other races, which have a race specific favored class. Take my character for example, he's a Halruaan, which in 3E (perhaps others?) has given him wizard as a favored class, above and beyond the typically allowed favored class, thus, my character has taken fighter, and wizard as favored classes, and taken two PrC's as non-favored classes and kept them in balance with eachother.
First, unless you take a d20 feat (you can find a bunch of them here and there online), you can't have a second favored class. Shadowfoot (from the WotC forums) apparently does something like that (or allows players to select one from a racial list; I'm not sure which), but the core rule is one per character. I'm not sure how you thought that being from a particular region gave you a bonus favored class, as I can't find anything that wouldn't take a munchkin to push through, so I have to assume that's a house rule. I suppose if it's open to all races and characters, it's probably okay, though I'd have to think about it.
Second, PrCs don't count against XP penalties in the official rules. I think that's actually a bit off, myself; there was a rule someone suggested to adjust PrCs into an XP deduction system like base classes, which prevents the front-loading that made them change the first-level ability of the Duelist in 3.5e. Still, the rules say any mix of PrCs go, so I assume this is another house rule.
Finally, I deliberately didn't list the "Favored Class: Any" in the abilities humans have, because it's not unique. Half-elves get it, after all. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2004 : 08:25:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Capn Charlie
The halforc is still a sad race, as it has not even the perfunctory atttempt at flavor bonuses that the tohers have.
The half-orc is something I found singularly unatractive when I first saw it. Of course, I didn't like the Intelligence penalty; even so, when I started looking at things from a balance point of view, things started seeming off. The biggest thing I found odd about it was the Charisma penalty. Are half-orcs less self-confident than other races? Are they weaker in spirit? Hardly.
Dwarves get the same penalty, but I find it to be stranger with the half-orc. I've some ideas on alternate racial stats for both, which I should write down and post.
Getting back on topic (yeah, yeah, the Bookwyrm on topic -- mark your calenders), I never said that humans were grossly out of balance. In fact, I said it wouldn't take much. I have a suggestion that I showed to the Sage, who thought it interesting. I'll put it up soon. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Wood Elf Ranger
Senior Scribe
USA
627 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2004 : 15:50:22
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I'm not sure about the dwarves, but the half-orc charisma penalty is due to their appearance and thats it.  |
~Lee N.
"Breaktime yes?!.. Yes?.. Maybe?.. Noo, baaack to work.." -Grovel the Goblin from NWN: HotU |
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Lysander
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2004 : 16:04:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Finally, I deliberately didn't list the "Favored Class: Any" in the abilities humans have, because it's not unique. Half-elves get it, after all.
quote:
Originally posted by Capn Charlie
But the races that really get the shaft in my book are the half orcs and half elves. The half elves get nifty bonuses now, but at first did not. The halforc is still a sad race, as it has not even the perfunctory atttempt at flavor bonuses that the tohers have.
I'm not sure of the 3.5E rules, but 3.0E half-elves certainly got the shaft. From memory, they have any class as favorite, they have the elvish resistance to charm, sleep, and so forth, darkvision/infrasion/whatever name it goes by now , +1 to listen/spot/search, +2 to Fort save, and.... hmm, +1(?) to Gather Information and Diplomacy under 3.5? No ability adjustments, there doesn't seem to be much to the half-elf, when the other races are compared. Even humans get more feats and skill points in the beginning  |
Lysander
Defender of the Second Edition
Moderator, Project Gemengan, Worlds of D&D |
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Sanavin
Acolyte
Finland
26 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2004 : 17:08:40
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| +2 to Diplomacy and Gather Information. And no bonus to Fort saves. So, it is like having one of those +2 to two skills feats. And bonus +3 skill points, to get those bonuses to Listen/Search/Spot. Less than humans, yes. But humans don't have low-light vision, or resistances to sleep/enchantments. |
"Never test the depth of the water with both feet." |
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zolansilverspear
Acolyte
Turkey
11 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2004 : 18:47:50
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Dwarfs are endurant and they don't care about manners and outlooks,
Half-orcs are half breeds of an evil race, they carry the streangth of their orkish ancestors but they also carry their resemblance, not only being ugly but also somewhat gruff and fearsome.
Helf-elfs are a cross breed of the two most dominant races of fearun, humans and elves. They carry the major adventages of both races but not all.
Humans are just plain flexible. Theyr nor over neither under powered, they are just where the fulcrum stands.
The elven race is born magicians all of them carry a part of the wave in them, dwarf are born fighters and craftsman because they are stone come to life. Orcs are born saveges because they live only for blood. Humans are born to thier own fates. They are not mages, nor fighters neither savages. They are each and everyone of them while still being none. Thus is the real strength of mankind.
(I was trying to say this when I first said "You have to look at the big picture. I hope I made my point this time) |
Zolan "BeaR" Silverspear |
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Karesch
Learned Scribe
Canada
199 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2004 : 01:28:40
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Arcane Schooling, Bookwyrm, it's a feat available to 1st level characters of Halruaa (as well as Chessenta, Lantan, Mulhorand, and Unther), it is a regional feat described in the FRCS on Page 33. It allows you to take any 1 arcane spellcasting class as a favored class in addition to any other favored class you select. So yes, it was available to my character as a result of a selected feat. Anyhow, incase you were wondering about how it resulted, there is how.
K |
Knowledge is power... power corrupts... knowledge corrupts? hmm...
Death is only frightening to those who haven't died yet... |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2004 : 02:46:41
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| Okay, thank you. I missed that last night. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Karesch
Learned Scribe
Canada
199 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2004 : 03:29:57
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not a problem friend. Glad to have cleared it up for you.
K |
Knowledge is power... power corrupts... knowledge corrupts? hmm...
Death is only frightening to those who haven't died yet... |
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Artalis
Senior Scribe
USA
444 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2004 : 04:42:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wood Elf Ranger
I'm not sure about the dwarves, but the half-orc charisma penalty is due to their appearance and thats it.
I disagree. Voice also plays a part as well as a natural tendancy towards agression. It's hard to be eloquent when talking thru fangs. I would think that they should also recieve a bonus to certain skill checks and a negative to others. Diplomacy and Intimidate respectively.
Though this might even be the case as I have to admit that it's been a long time since I've looked at the stats for half-orcs and orcs in third edition. |
Artalis
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2004 : 09:20:53
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I think you mean "Intimidate and Diplomacy, respectively."
According to the 3.5e SRD, orcs get no skill bonuses. This seems to remove their +2 Intimidate they had in 3e, which has to be a mistake.
Charisma is the vaguest abillity in the game. It stands at once for three things: appearance, force of personality, and spiritual connectiveness. The latter sounds a lot like wisdom, but it's the only way I'm coming up with to describe charisma-powered intuitive magic.
Half-orcs have automatic negatives on two of those three, so I suppose it is actually okay to have them get a penalty -- even though there's nothing against strong half-orc personalities.
Dwarves, on the other hand, seem to have no real reason for the Charisma penalty. They're not ugly, they don't have weak personalities, and they don't have a lack of spirit. The last one could be twisted back to a penalty, though, if you focus on their non-magical natures from 2e. A dwarven sorcerer is a strange thought, stranger than a dwarven wizard; a dwarven bard is almost a joke. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Lina
Senior Scribe
Australia
469 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2004 : 11:44:11
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| I don't think there's much disadvantages with being a human, apart from the fact that they have shorter natural lifespans than the other major races; orcs, elves, dwarves, etc. They're not class restricted, you start off without any negative stat adjustments (or positive stats either), no minus points for multi-classing either, you have more choices with choosing alignment, they get along with most other races, are more resourceful and level up faster. :) |
“Darkness beyond twilight, crimson beyond blood that flows! Buried in the flow of time. In thy great name. I pledge myself to darkness. All the fools who stand in our way shall be destroyed…by the power you and I possess! DRAGON SLAVE!!!”
"Thieves? Ah, such an ugly word... look upon them as the most honest sort of merchant."
-Oglar the Thieflord |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2004 : 20:13:00
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How do they level up faster? They don't get an XP bonus. And multiclassing penalties are still there, it's just that the human character's highest level class counts as favored.
Personally, I think that both the human and half-elf "Favored Class: Any" feature should be redone. Rather than the highest class, it should be that the player chooses one class to be the character's favored class. Not only does it make more sense when introducing it (you don't need a separate example like you find in the book) it also lends more to roleplaying. ("My character was the son of a powerful wizard's manservant; while growing up, he absorbed a lot of arcane knowledge. That's why Wizard is his favored class.") |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Karesch
Learned Scribe
Canada
199 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2004 : 22:53:18
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yeah, I have to agree with you bookwyrm on the human favored class thing. I tend to play it that you pick one when you start your character, whether it be the class your starting with or not, you pick what class is going to be the favored class for your character, and it remains that way throughout the game. Like with my character, Started as a wizard (he came from Halruaa, it was only natural) but I picked the human favored class, to be fighter, and when I built his background I mentioned that, although formally taught in a wizard school, he always had an interest in swordplay and military tactics, thus, he has a favored class of fighter). It was worked out more thoroughly than that in the characters history, but that's the gist of it. I always thought that's the way it should have been dealt with, that the player had to pick what their human character was going to have as a favored class, and stick to it.
K |
Knowledge is power... power corrupts... knowledge corrupts? hmm...
Death is only frightening to those who haven't died yet... |
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Lina
Senior Scribe
Australia
469 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2004 : 10:36:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
How do they level up faster? They don't get an XP bonus. And multiclassing penalties are still there, it's just that the human character's highest level class counts as favored.
Personally, I think that both the human and half-elf "Favored Class: Any" feature should be redone. Rather than the highest class, it should be that the player chooses one class to be the character's favored class. Not only does it make more sense when introducing it (you don't need a separate example like you find in the book) it also lends more to roleplaying. ("My character was the son of a powerful wizard's manservant; while growing up, he absorbed a lot of arcane knowledge. That's why Wizard is his favored class.")
Some of the RPG PC games that I've come across, whenever I played as human I always seem to level up faster and the multitasking penalties for humans are removed because humans are more adaptable so on and so forth. |
“Darkness beyond twilight, crimson beyond blood that flows! Buried in the flow of time. In thy great name. I pledge myself to darkness. All the fools who stand in our way shall be destroyed…by the power you and I possess! DRAGON SLAVE!!!”
"Thieves? Ah, such an ugly word... look upon them as the most honest sort of merchant."
-Oglar the Thieflord |
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Lashan
Learned Scribe
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2004 : 21:00:20
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I disagree with Bookwyrm. I believe that part of the strength of humanity is their versitality. Sometimes, you don't know until years later what you could accomplish. For example, the human who's father was a powerful merchant could start off as a mage, but end up being a powerful fighter. He never saw this coming, but if he was required to pick some class upon character creation, he would never become this fighter.
I say one of the great strengths of the humans (in game) is to not have a favored class. |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2004 : 02:55:17
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Half-orcs, and perhaps half-elves, are arguably the weakest builds, though I still think it is gnomes who get the least play time. They seem to lack the flavour that the half-orcs and half-elves give.
Humans, in my opinion, are fine and I agree with Lashan in saying that their versatility is one of their strengths.
The comment about levelling faster I think was meant in comparative terms, that humans have much shorter lifespans so try and get things done more quickly, whereas elves and dwarves are far more patient as they have longer to live. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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The Silhouette
Acolyte
25 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2004 : 15:33:35
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| I must say, that in my opinion, humans and half-elves are very weak indeed. Niether race recives racial bonuses(well half-elves get some) and niether gets extra points for dex and such... If they did get some extra stuff, I would be a lot happier in playing them...because I usually play with halflings and elves(which can be weak at times)...so overall all the races are a bit weak(with some strengths) and I really think they all get balanced out in the longrun... |
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Are Humans Underpowered?
