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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
237 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Jun 2021 : 22:27:39
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Irennan you don't happen to be that Tommaso guy who questioned RAS on Twitter? I find it amazing how dismissive RAS is of the gods of FR in general. The gods of Forgotten Realms are the major reason why I adore the setting. I am an agnostic myself but if I was in Faerun I would happily worship the amazing gods of the Realms. Also it doesn't seem like RAS understands how polytheism works. Only particularly zealous people and priests worship (almost) exclusively a particular deity. Virtually everyone worships and venerates a multitude of deities, though most people have one god they gravitate towards more than others; with that being their particular patron. The only faiths that I can think of that come close to monotheism is the faith of Bane, but then it is more the supremacy of Bane as a lord above the other gods, rather than Bane being the sole god of the world.
It doesn't sound like RAS has spoken to Ed Greenwood about how religion works in FR. He seems to think that by virtue of alone of e.g. Drizzt worshipping Mielikki (as he used to do), that means Mielikki will always be around to save him whenever he's in a bad spot. That's not how it works. The gods in FR are mysterious and elusive, and their messages are always cryptic, meaning that followers themselves must interpret their god's will and must find the answers of life's trial within themselves. The gods will not save anyone from their doom (save for a miracle; meaning pretty much never as far as most people are concerned). The only thing they will do is grant a place in their domain to those that merit it. |
Edited by - deserk on 02 Jun 2021 22:36:02 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2021 : 22:31:19
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Yeah, I'm that guy. Now that I realize it, it's even in my Candlekeep profile info.
Also, yes, RAS likely knows little to nothing of how the FR work and is just projecting his bias while using the work of others.
In fact, I find it amazing how dismissive RAS is towards not only of the FR gods, but of the work of the people who contributed to FR as well. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 02 Jun 2021 22:34:49 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2021 : 22:41:29
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That said, some gods are known to help people in certain situations. That doesn't mean that they'll always be there and can be used as a deus ex machina.
However, it seems to me that RAS' problem isn't with that. In fact, he even has problems with the gods offering an afterlife (and whenever the question arises, he says something like "gods are no more than supernatural entities with brochures on the afterlife"). To me, he seems to think that faith automatically diminishes a character, which stinks of personal bias (and is also the opposite of what a writer should do. A writer should be able to let go of their bias and filter everything from the character's viewpoint--perceive things like the character would. Only then you can claim to do immersive writing). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 03 Jun 2021 00:30:08 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2021 : 00:06:04
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
This place really enjoys its outrage!
I’m happy to keep romping around in my 4e Realms, and the greybeards can enjoy their Old Grey Box, and literally none of us need to care about new material that we won’t ever use. Most of this forum doesn’t even play 5e!
You mean the 5E timeline for the Realms. Game rules and campaign settings are mutually exclusive.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2021 : 00:30:55
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quote:
Originally posted by deserk
Irennan you don't happen to be that Tommaso guy who questioned RAS on Twitter? I find it amazing how dismissive RAS is of the gods of FR in general. The gods of Forgotten Realms are the major reason why I adore the setting. I am an agnostic myself but if I was in Faerun I would happily worship the amazing gods of the Realms. Also it doesn't seem like RAS understands how polytheism works. Only particularly zealous people and priests worship (almost) exclusively a particular deity. Virtually everyone worships and venerates a multitude of deities, though most people have one god they gravitate towards more than others; with that being their particular patron. The only faiths that I can think of that come close to monotheism is the faith of Bane, but then it is more the supremacy of Bane as a lord above the other gods, rather than Bane being the sole god of the world.
Couldn't find RAS' comments other than his reply to BJ, but I completely agree, which is why I have said RAS is projecting his ex-Catholic bitterness onto a fictional setting. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2021 : 00:34:41
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Couldn't find RAS' comments other than his reply to BJ, but I completely agree, which is why I have said RAS is projecting his ex-Catholic bitterness onto a fictional setting.
It was in a different thread. He replied to a comment of mine about how Eilistraee isn't likely to be involved because of his involvment. I addressed some of the points that I had heard him make in the interview that you linked here.
https://twitter.com/r_a_salvatore/status/1399039639546179584 |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 03 Jun 2021 00:37:52 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2021 : 00:56:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Couldn't find RAS' comments other than his reply to BJ, but I completely agree, which is why I have said RAS is projecting his ex-Catholic bitterness onto a fictional setting.
It was in a different thread. He replied to a comment of mine about how Eilistraee isn't likely to be involved because of his involvment. I addressed some of the points that I had heard him make in the interview that you linked here.
https://twitter.com/r_a_salvatore/status/1399039639546179584
Cool, thanks. "Drizzt made it pretty clear in the beginning how I feel about them." Yup, suspicions confirmed. Drizzt is "right" because he ditches the gods, and those of faith can be dismissed. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2021 : 01:04:26
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| Well, I've mentioned multiple times that Drizzt stopped being a character a long time ago. He has no fatal flaw, his stories have no thematic viewpoint, he barely has stakes (technically he has them, but you 100% know he's going to be successful in whatever he attempts, so he only "technically" has stakes). Drizzt is a bunch of ideas that RAS consideres "the truth" or "moral virtues" on a stick. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 03 Jun 2021 01:08:13 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2021 : 01:13:26
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The interesting things about that exchange are his concession that Eilistraee can still play a role in the new drow model (although I suspect that he's just saying that and doesn't actually know whether the new lore retrofits properly to allow that) and his comments about not using "the gods". What's Lolth? Very odd. The irony is that if he actually embraced drow lore in the Realms he would have fantastic touchstones upon which to build his fiction and avoid some of the head-scratching moments when he fails to do so. I'm sure he thinks the lore is restrictive in that regard, but I think he's mistaken - does he think he wrote good novels in the Star Wars universe? That lore didn't appear to restrict him. There's a difference between weaving a tapestry of many strands and a tablecloth.
-- George Krashos
EDIT: Oh and one more thing: if Mielikki is good enough to use as the deus ex machina he seems to deplore so he can carry his characters into the 5E Realms and keep the novels coming (i.e. Iruladoon), you would think she's good enough to worship ... |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 03 Jun 2021 01:18:15 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2021 : 01:23:14
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He probably said that about Eilistraee to make me stfu.
As for the lore, I agree with what you said, but that's beyond the point. He's using stuff he didn't create, respecting it is bare minimum decency for a creative.
As for Mielikki as deus ex machina, yeah... I was tempted to call him out on his hypocrisy, but I preferred to focus on proving his statement wrong. Especially on an impairing medium like Twitter (I hate it). Calling him out on Mielikki could have reinforced his point that the gods are but dei ex machina in the waiting for a writer, and could have served him an easy rebuttal. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 03 Jun 2021 01:42:08 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2021 : 01:28:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Couldn't find RAS' comments other than his reply to BJ, but I completely agree, which is why I have said RAS is projecting his ex-Catholic bitterness onto a fictional setting.
It was in a different thread. He replied to a comment of mine about how Eilistraee isn't likely to be involved because of his involvment. I addressed some of the points that I had heard him make in the interview that you linked here.
https://twitter.com/r_a_salvatore/status/1399039639546179584
lol, if I didn't knew that person is RAS, I would have believed it was Mehen the one answering that tweet 
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2021 : 02:55:12
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The interesting things about that exchange are his concession that Eilistraee can still play a role in the new drow model (although I suspect that he's just saying that and doesn't actually know whether the new lore retrofits properly to allow that)
Oh, forgot one more thing about this point. The new drow model would actually help Eilistraee a lot. I've discussed this elsewhere, so I'll just paste here.
quote:
I don't think Eilistraee is diminished by this. I do think that WotC is trying to sideline her, though.
The most obvious reason is that there are still plenty of udadrow who need her, and she will still reach to them, and will still be a beacon for oppressed people. If anything, these new drow settelements could give her a boost, in that she'd be more capable of offering a safe haven to udadrow.
The most important reason is this:
"Redemption" isn't even her focus, even for what are now called udadrow. That's because most drow have nothing to redeem for and are just miserable and trying to survive. As a fun fact, in her early writeups the world redemption doesn't even appear. Her focus is healing, and most Lolthites are plain victims of abuse. Eilistraee's message to the drow is one of healing and hope, not "repent". Once they heal, they can thrive and live in harmony with the rest of the world. Eilistraee is also known to not only reach to drow, but to marginalized people/outcasts in general. The thing is, there will always be people who need healing, and Eilistraee will still reach to all people who are marginalized, who are outcasts, who need to see the beauty in the world. And these people can be found even in the best societies out there.
Furthermore Eilistraee comes with two underlying different themes connected to each other. That is, overcoming your wounds and finding happiness amidst suffering, by taking all your pain, all your sadness, and using it to create beauty. Turning it into art, into empathy for others, into making the world a better place for all. This you can see from how all her teachings and a lot of her efforts revolve around spreading joy and hope--even in dark places like the Underdark--and finding happiness in small things, depsite what she goes through.
The other one is the strength in compassion, aka searching for and healing the good in the broken. Reaching to the outcasts, the miserable, seeing the potential in them, and empowering them to fulfill themselves. This is fairly obvious, but yeah...
Given all of this, she would have a place even if all drow turned out to be good, because her main message is about embracing life and nurturing beauty, both for oneself and for others.
Another reason is that there's more to Eilistraee than healing. Eilistraee's a deity of beauty/arts, freedom, and acts as a motherly figure who helps the drow thrive and fulfill themselves. Eilistraee empowers the drow to find their own path in the world, even if that path ends up not being with her specifically (see Liriel). She could still find a role as a patroness in Loren and Aeven culture. As a trivial example, she can easily be the patroness of artists.
So, essentially, Eilistraee would retain her role towards the udadrow, but the other drow cultures would offer even more prompts to explore her other facets as a deity (that go nearly always ignored for whatever reason)
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 03 Jun 2021 03:17:12 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2021 : 01:20:14
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quote:
Originally posted by deserk
Irennan you don't happen to be that Tommaso guy who questioned RAS on Twitter? I find it amazing how dismissive RAS is of the gods of FR in general. The gods of Forgotten Realms are the major reason why I adore the setting. I am an agnostic myself but if I was in Faerun I would happily worship the amazing gods of the Realms. Also it doesn't seem like RAS understands how polytheism works. Only particularly zealous people and priests worship (almost) exclusively a particular deity. Virtually everyone worships and venerates a multitude of deities, though most people have one god they gravitate towards more than others; with that being their particular patron. The only faiths that I can think of that come close to monotheism is the faith of Bane, but then it is more the supremacy of Bane as a lord above the other gods, rather than Bane being the sole god of the world.
It doesn't sound like RAS has spoken to Ed Greenwood about how religion works in FR. He seems to think that by virtue of alone of e.g. Drizzt worshipping Mielikki (as he used to do), that means Mielikki will always be around to save him whenever he's in a bad spot. That's not how it works. The gods in FR are mysterious and elusive, and their messages are always cryptic, meaning that followers themselves must interpret their god's will and must find the answers of life's trial within themselves. The gods will not save anyone from their doom (save for a miracle; meaning pretty much never as far as most people are concerned). The only thing they will do is grant a place in their domain to those that merit it.
Cyric seems closer to Monothiesm then Bane, although it's mentioned that Calimshan used to be Monotheistic, but what that faith was or how it fell was never mentioned.
There their is the faith of the Adama in Durpur which believes the Gods are all facets of a single God is borderline soft Monotheistic, depending on how you see it. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2021 : 01:42:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The interesting things about that exchange are his concession that Eilistraee can still play a role in the new drow model (although I suspect that he's just saying that and doesn't actually know whether the new lore retrofits properly to allow that)
Oh, forgot one more thing about this point. The new drow model would actually help Eilistraee a lot. I've discussed this elsewhere, so I'll just paste here.
quote:
I don't think Eilistraee is diminished by this. I do think that WotC is trying to sideline her, though.
The most obvious reason is that there are still plenty of udadrow who need her, and she will still reach to them, and will still be a beacon for oppressed people. If anything, these new drow settelements could give her a boost, in that she'd be more capable of offering a safe haven to udadrow.
The most important reason is this:
"Redemption" isn't even her focus, even for what are now called udadrow. That's because most drow have nothing to redeem for and are just miserable and trying to survive. As a fun fact, in her early writeups the world redemption doesn't even appear. Her focus is healing, and most Lolthites are plain victims of abuse. Eilistraee's message to the drow is one of healing and hope, not "repent". Once they heal, they can thrive and live in harmony with the rest of the world. Eilistraee is also known to not only reach to drow, but to marginalized people/outcasts in general. The thing is, there will always be people who need healing, and Eilistraee will still reach to all people who are marginalized, who are outcasts, who need to see the beauty in the world. And these people can be found even in the best societies out there.
Furthermore Eilistraee comes with two underlying different themes connected to each other. That is, overcoming your wounds and finding happiness amidst suffering, by taking all your pain, all your sadness, and using it to create beauty. Turning it into art, into empathy for others, into making the world a better place for all. This you can see from how all her teachings and a lot of her efforts revolve around spreading joy and hope--even in dark places like the Underdark--and finding happiness in small things, depsite what she goes through.
The other one is the strength in compassion, aka searching for and healing the good in the broken. Reaching to the outcasts, the miserable, seeing the potential in them, and empowering them to fulfill themselves. This is fairly obvious, but yeah...
Given all of this, she would have a place even if all drow turned out to be good, because her main message is about embracing life and nurturing beauty, both for oneself and for others.
Another reason is that there's more to Eilistraee than healing. Eilistraee's a deity of beauty/arts, freedom, and acts as a motherly figure who helps the drow thrive and fulfill themselves. Eilistraee empowers the drow to find their own path in the world, even if that path ends up not being with her specifically (see Liriel). She could still find a role as a patroness in Loren and Aeven culture. As a trivial example, she can easily be the patroness of artists.
So, essentially, Eilistraee would retain her role towards the udadrow, but the other drow cultures would offer even more prompts to explore her other facets as a deity (that go nearly always ignored for whatever reason)
I think she's side lined for RAS trilogy, along with other Drow cities as he chooses to ignore those elements, but that doesn't mean WotC plans on ignoring her in the RPG products or in the AFR set. I suspect issues like religion and other details of the cities will be covered in a future product like a Faerun Campaign Book. WotC plans on massively shaking up the Realms, especially the idea of "evil" humanoid races. It's not just the Drow, it's Kobolds, Gobliniods, Dragonborn (okay Dragonborn aren't an "evil" race, but they are massively changing the race from the PHB version, for the better as the UA Dragonborn are way better mechanically, although it will take a lore adjustment to explain how one race turned into 3 or more races). There are also cultural depictions of humans they wish to polish up. And the massive cash they have spent on AFR's art (we are taking probably roughly 600 expensive pieces of art or more). And the fact that we know they are working on 2 classic settings.
I am expecting a Drizzt's Guide to Faerun to be one of the Setting Books this year to fit in with the Summer of Legend aka The Summer of Drizzt. |
Edited by - Gyor on 05 Jun 2021 01:45:01 |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
214 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2021 : 16:58:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
I am expecting a Drizzt's Guide to Faerun to be one of the Setting Books this year to fit in with the Summer of Legend aka The Summer of Drizzt.
Two of the books were just leaked: a Feywild adventure and another Magic: The Gathering setting. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2021 : 17:39:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
WotC plans on massively shaking up the Realms, especially the idea of "evil" humanoid races. It's not just the Drow, it's Kobolds, Gobliniods, Dragonborn (okay Dragonborn aren't an "evil" race, but they are massively changing the race from the PHB version, for the better as the UA Dragonborn are way better mechanically, although it will take a lore adjustment to explain how one race turned into 3 or more races). There are also cultural depictions of humans they wish to polish up. And the massive cash they have spent on AFR's art (we are taking probably roughly 600 expensive pieces of art or more).
Where is it even implied that WotC is doing anything with the Realms other than revisiting the drow cash cow for the 1,736th time?
Honestly, I get wanting WotC to do something other than give us another pre-packaged adventure, with some dribs of original lore and some existing lore mangled into a new shape to fit. We all want that. I just don't see anything to indicate that anyone at WotC is even contemplating such a thing. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 05 Jun 2021 18:02:51 |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2021 : 20:59:12
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quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
I am expecting a Drizzt's Guide to Faerun to be one of the Setting Books this year to fit in with the Summer of Legend aka The Summer of Drizzt.
Two of the books were just leaked: a Feywild adventure and another Magic: The Gathering setting.
Having just looked to see which setting they chose, I’ll admit I find it a perplexing one. Of all the options they had, MtG-Hogwarts was not the one that came to mind first. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2021 : 21:30:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
I am expecting a Drizzt's Guide to Faerun to be one of the Setting Books this year to fit in with the Summer of Legend aka The Summer of Drizzt.
Two of the books were just leaked: a Feywild adventure and another Magic: The Gathering setting.
Having just looked to see which setting they chose, I’ll admit I find it a perplexing one. Of all the options they had, MtG-Hogwarts was not the one that came to mind first.
Not paying any attention to MtG, I honestly didn't know they had multiple settings, until they did that Planeshift stuff. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
890 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2021 : 21:35:39
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Do you think Eilistraee will increase efforts through her worshippers to cleanse the High Moor and bring back more of Miyeritar? It was after all, once one of her main centers of power before the Crown Wars wrecked it.
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2021 : 21:42:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Do you think Eilistraee will increase efforts through her worshippers to cleanse the High Moor and bring back more of Miyeritar? It was after all, once one of her main centers of power before the Crown Wars wrecked it.
IMO, if WotC had bothered with it, Eilistraee would already be using Rhymanthiin as a shelter for her people, and working to cleanse more regions in the High Moor. Of course, given who's handling this, I'm not even sure the current team is aware that Rhymanthiin or Miyeritar are a thing. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 05 Jun 2021 21:42:53 |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
890 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2021 : 23:17:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
IMO, if WotC had bothered with it, Eilistraee would already be using Rhymanthiin as a shelter for her people, and working to cleanse more regions in the High Moor. Of course, given who's handling this, I'm not even sure the current team is aware that Rhymanthiin or Miyeritar are a thing.
I would not give a flying about what WoTC (or RAS) thinks. We moved past the Lady Penitent debacle. We can move ahead with Eilistraee and her goals. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2021 : 23:51:06
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Then yeah, I pretty much think that it's a very obvious move on her side. Her followers should be befriending the former Sharns in Rhymanthiin, and rebuilding the civilization of Miyeritar. They are, after all, the heirs of what once was one of the greatest hubs of art and magic in all of Faerun. This has some potential as plot hook for a campaign: a civilization being rebuilt in a hostile area in need of cleanup and with threats. Ancient knowledge/magic buried there. Secret history to uncover. Tons of stuff along those lines. Also, the whole political aspect of a new nation being formed (much like Myth Drannor)- It lends itself quite well as a starting point.
Rhymanthiin would also be especially good as a base for the Eilistraeans due to the fact that it supposedly can't be found by ill-intentioned people, so Lolthites wouldn't be able to find it easily. I also think that the followers of Eilistraee would want to work on their infrastructure. Namely, movement. So, creating and maintaining tunnel networks in the Underdark, and portals. That idea comes from the fact that they already control tunnel networks in certain regions of the Underdark, from what we learn in the 2e Raven's Bluff sourcebook, and are quite capable with portals and make wide use of those. Also, working to increase drow trade with other surface settlements (which they already do in the lore, but now can do even better). Opening the way to eventual alliances. Investing in this is a no brainer tbh. Rhymanthiin could take the place of the Promenade as the new hub, considering that--with Ghaunadaur gone from the pit--the Promenade doesn't need to be the *main* Eilistraean temple anymore. It still maintains its value, to interact with Waterdeep, free slaves in Skullport, etc... but Rhymanthiin is a safer place where to shelter converts and people in need of any kind.
Having access to the knowledge/resources stored in Rhymanthiin would also give the followers of Eilistraee more tools to provide the drow with all they need to follow the path they want to follow and fulfil themselves, which is a huge thing, and part of Eilistraee's goals as well.
Idk, this development is so natural that it should have been one of the first things to happen after the restoration of Rhymanthiin. Tbh, I would have also liked to see Eilistraeans involved in the ritual, but w/e. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 06 Jun 2021 01:16:56 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2021 : 02:50:14
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Rightly or wrongly, Rhymanthiin was created pursuant to the faiths of the "Pentad": Corellon Larethian, Sehanine Moonbow, Dumathoin, Mystra and Oghma. Eilistraee doesn't get a mention. The issue is simply this: Steven Schend wrote Blackstaff consistent with the lore he had created in Cormanthyr that all dark elves were turned into drow by the High Magic ritual. Rightly or wrongly, Eilistraee never featured prominently in his writings or thoughts on that score. He created Miyeritar to be a High Magic pinnacle (along with Uvaeren) and Eilistraee has never been a deity of "magic". In addition, Miyeritar was never fleshed out until the Lady Penitent series.
The observant might want to look at my lore vignette in GHotR that dealt with the Descent of the Drow. Recognising the dissonance in the dark elves of Miyeritar being transformed along with the Ilythiiri, I tried to give a reason why that might be the case (in context, it was that the Aryvandaaran occupation had pushed them to be "less than principled" due to their anger and desperation). I've never had any feedback on that piece and what people thought of it - targeted, specific feedback is at a premium in the FR community generally if I draw on my DMs Guild releases experience - and in the whirl of writing GHotR it was an opportunity I didn't want to pass up (because you never knew if you'd get another opportunity; which was pretty much true after that). But on that, I always thought that "not all dark elves" were transformed. That's a personal view and over the millennia their bloodlines were unable to be kept "pure" as it were, such that there were no demonstrable dark elves by the 1350s DR.
That said, it was Lady Penitent that definitively stated that the dark elves of Miyeritar worshipped Eilistraee. So the "connection:" between Eilistraee and Rhymanthiin as an extension of that is not something that comes from Steven Schend. Similarly, during Blackstaff, the dark elves that had become sharn chose to remain in that form as to become dark elves again would see them become drow as per the High Magic ritual that was still operating in the background. Given that there were only 90 of them anyway, that's not necessarily going to renew the dark elven race. The Lady Penitent series potentially did that, with Q'arlynd's ritual allowing those sharn to finally make the choice to become dark elves again. But it appears from Ascendancy of the Last that they did not make that choice - but did reach out to Q'arlynd after his ritual (sharn are big at picking up on grand ritual magic being cast) and offered sanctuary in Rhymanthiin to him and his dark elf cohorts. I note that this mention of the "City of Hope" is the only time the city was referenced officially after Blackstaff.
It would appear therefore that some of those 90 dark elf/sharn were Eilistraee worshippers and reached out. So yes, I agree that Rhymanthiin has now become the place where all the dark elves tried to get to (and with sharn aid likely succeeded) but that doesn't in my view make Eilistraee a major presence in the city. Just my 2cp.
-- George Krashosi |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2021 : 03:19:58
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Lady Penitent didn't flesh out Miyeritar, though. Like, at all (I wouldn't equate having a random kiira that acts as a convenient deus ex machina to fleshing out. The series gave us no further info on how the life in Miyeritar was, or stuff like that--unless I'm just failing to recall it but, at the cost of sounding arrogant, in this case I doubt it). In any case, Demihuman Deities already firmly established Eilistraee as one of the main faiths in Miyeritar. Her whole faith was concentrated there, to the point that the Dark Disaster led to Eilistraee losing the vast majority of her followers and rendered her powerless. Which is why I always say that Eilistraee has a history as a patroness of a whole goodly dark elf culture.
Now, as for whether Eilistraee would have a presence in Rhymanthiin from the get go, that's debatable, yes. The no brainer part is that she and her poeople would try to get to Rhymanthiin, try to recreate the civilization of Miyeritar, and use that land to offer shelter to drow and other people in need that they are known to shelter (like slaves).
Note, this isn't to blame Steven or whatever. It might very well be that, despite Eilistraee's faith having a strong presence in Miyeritar, there were some cities where she had little to no followers. And Rhymanthiin might be one of those. The Sharn also include influence from non-elven cultures and races, so it's understandable really. In fact, I said that I would have liked to see Eilistraeans involved in the ritual, but I didn't say that not including them was a mistake. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 06 Jun 2021 03:31:53 |
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BrennonGoldeye
Learned Scribe
105 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2021 : 14:15:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Yeah, I'm that guy. Now that I realize it, it's even in my Candlekeep profile info.
Also, yes, RAS likely knows little to nothing of how the FR work and is just projecting his bias while using the work of others.
In fact, I find it amazing how dismissive RAS is towards not only of the FR gods, but of the work of the people who contributed to FR as well.
Oh my, what fresh Hades is this? Tom, you are going to totally lose your eyesight from all this typing. Tell me you have some word documents with the Lady Penitent stuff. BTW, would you be interested in helping me flesh out a couple of Old World Ilythiiri? I need a different set of eyes that loves them as much as I do.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2021 : 18:10:07
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It was mages who performed the ritual (though they were aided by the Seldarine), and it was meant to target only the corrupted dark elves, but the spell went awry, and it ended up affecting all the dark elves.
"In the face of this savage assault, the remaining elven kingdoms gathered in a great conclave and made a decision that would haunt elvenkind forever--the Ilythiiri, or "dhaerow", would be cast out of Corellon's favor and divorced for all time from their brethren. The most powerful high mages and clerics of the Seldarine joined together to perform a ritual that altered the Ilythiiri's bodies to match the corruption of their souls.
Although the conclave had intended to punish only the Ilythiiri, the ritual altered all the dark elves of Faerun except those who had already altered their own forms. The corrupted dark elves were then driven underground by the combined might of the united elven nations. This event, known as the Descent, mirrored the fall of Lolth and her offspring from the Seldarine and thus helped to seal the new elf subrace's loyalty to the Spider Queen. The word dhaerow--which once meant traitor--was likewise corrupted to "drow", which became the name of the corrupted dark elves.
Why all the dark elves, and not just the Ilythiiri, were transformed into drow remains one of the enduring mysteries of the Descent. Some of the more humble elven theologians believe it was an unintended consequence of the sort that always seems to occur when the Fair Folk overreach themselves in the application of high magic. In their eyes, the disastrous sundering of Evermeet, the Dark Disaster, and the destruction of Jhaamdath fall into that same category.".
Lost Empires of Faerun, pg 55-6.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 06 Jun 2021 18:22:42 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2021 : 19:10:12
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
It was mages who performed the ritual (though they were aided by the Seldarine), and it was meant to target only the corrupted dark elves, but the spell went awry, and it ended up affecting all the dark elves.
"In the face of this savage assault, the remaining elven kingdoms gathered in a great conclave and made a decision that would haunt elvenkind forever--the Ilythiiri, or "dhaerow", would be cast out of Corellon's favor and divorced for all time from their brethren. The most powerful high mages and clerics of the Seldarine joined together to perform a ritual that altered the Ilythiiri's bodies to match the corruption of their souls.
Although the conclave had intended to punish only the Ilythiiri, the ritual altered all the dark elves of Faerun except those who had already altered their own forms. The corrupted dark elves were then driven underground by the combined might of the united elven nations. This event, known as the Descent, mirrored the fall of Lolth and her offspring from the Seldarine and thus helped to seal the new elf subrace's loyalty to the Spider Queen. The word dhaerow--which once meant traitor--was likewise corrupted to "drow", which became the name of the corrupted dark elves.
Why all the dark elves, and not just the Ilythiiri, were transformed into drow remains one of the enduring mysteries of the Descent. Some of the more humble elven theologians believe it was an unintended consequence of the sort that always seems to occur when the Fair Folk overreach themselves in the application of high magic. In their eyes, the disastrous sundering of Evermeet, the Dark Disaster, and the destruction of Jhaamdath fall into that same category.".
Lost Empires of Faerun, pg 55-6.
So it's canon that it was an unintended mortal screwup. I'd forgotten that it was canon.
I have to wonder, though, if it was entirely unintentional... In the Death's Gate Cycle, when the Sartan sundered the world and imprisoned the Patryn in the Labyrinth, it was intended to be a place of rehabilitation. However, some of the Sartan who cast the spell hated and/or feared the Patryn -- and the spell picked up on that, and turned the Labyrinth into a hellish prison, so deadly that it took generations for the first Patryn to be able to escape.
I'm thinking the transformation to drow could have been like that.
It could have also been that one (or more) of the casters had for some reason turned to Lolth. She convinced this caster (or casters) that tweaking the spell just a hair would have some other effect, one that either seemed harmless or that felt appropriate to the caster(s), and it was that tweak that made the spell have the larger effect. Why would Lolth do this? Because it dramatically increases the potential number of worshipers for her, and gives them a stronger reason to turn against the elves and the Seldarine ("We did nothing, and we're still punished for it?!?"). |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2021 : 19:33:34
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quote:
Originally posted by BrennonGoldeye
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Yeah, I'm that guy. Now that I realize it, it's even in my Candlekeep profile info.
Also, yes, RAS likely knows little to nothing of how the FR work and is just projecting his bias while using the work of others.
In fact, I find it amazing how dismissive RAS is towards not only of the FR gods, but of the work of the people who contributed to FR as well.
Oh my, what fresh Hades is this? Tom, you are going to totally lose your eyesight from all this typing. Tell me you have some word documents with the Lady Penitent stuff. BTW, would you be interested in helping me flesh out a couple of Old World Ilythiiri? I need a different set of eyes that loves them as much as I do.
My eyesight got better thanks to the cures, luckily, so that shouldn't too much fo a problem. But yeah, I do have a document with all that stuff. I got tired of answering to it a long time ago, so when that comes up I mostly paste text.
As for the project, my creative energies are all taken by a large personal project, but feedback I can do, if you're willing. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Upcoming changes to drow
