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HighOne
Learned Scribe
214 Posts |
 Posted - 31 May 2021 : 21:03:04
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| It occurred to me today that these changes aren't really any more heavy-handed than the return of Netheril in 3E. Wizards had to create an almost entirely new plane of existence to explain that one. (Before the Shadowfell, there was just the Demiplane of Shadow.) I can just imagine the snorts of disgust at the time. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2021 : 21:26:02
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| I wasn't there at the time either, but for me, the problem isn't that they're summoning up these new cities from nowehere (yes, it's lazy and uninspired as f*ck, but at least they aren't destroying anything) but that they're persevering in their doggedness against Eilistraee and Vhaeraun--to the point of not having even a mention to spare, in a rework that focuses on one of their biggest goals (especially for Eilistraee). Also, the massive and totally unnecessary axing of elf&drow history (even though some people keep insisting that words don't mean what they mean, because you can do some mental gymnastic and come up with some oblique interpretation that isn't what the article meant). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 31 May 2021 21:31:06 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2021 : 21:28:28
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quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
It occurred to me today that these changes aren't really any more heavy-handed than the return of Netheril in 3E. Wizards had to create an almost entirely new plane of existence to explain that one. (Before the Shadowfell, there was just the Demiplane of Shadow.) I can just imagine the snorts of disgust at the time.
-The Plane of Shadow existed long before the Return of the Archwizards trilogy. Lots of 2e sourcebooks, mention it. "Plane", "Demiplane", I guess if you want to get technical you can make a point there since in different editions I believe it went from one to the other, but realistically, planes, demiplanes, same thing, close enough, and really, kind of irrelevant in the context of the Netherese returning since it's not like any of the novels or sourcebooks really went into much detail about what the City of Shade was like on the other plane, to the point that a differentiation between "plane" and "demiplane" would be relevant. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
237 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2021 : 21:43:42
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Personally I liked the return of the Shadovar in 3E, though I preferred them being a shadowy power in the background of the setting rather than making open wars of conquest against everything in sight like in 4e. I would imagine the heirs of mighty Netheril (and followers of Shar at that) turning up in the Anauroch would want to keep a relatively low profile when they have come to a world they are relatively unfamiliar with, rather than encouraging fear, hostility and potential coalitions in the neighbouring lands.
And I could potentially even like this new lore if it is woven in respectfully. If RAS isn't the mastermind behind these drow community concepts (and I kinda hope he isn't due to his apparent dislike of the Dark Seldarine), I hope at least those particular developers pay homage to the other Dark Seldarine deities even if RAS won't. Though I don't like the sound of the worship of Lolth being referred to as a "cult". It's fine showcasing other non-evil drow communities, but Lolth should be one of the most prominent gods of the drow, followed by Ghaunadaur, Vhaeraun, Eilistraee and Kiaransalee. |
Edited by - deserk on 31 May 2021 21:48:39 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2021 : 21:53:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
It occurred to me today that these changes aren't really any more heavy-handed than the return of Netheril in 3E. Wizards had to create an almost entirely new plane of existence to explain that one. (Before the Shadowfell, there was just the Demiplane of Shadow.) I can just imagine the snorts of disgust at the time.
-The Plane of Shadow existed long before the Return of the Archwizards trilogy. Lots of 2e sourcebooks, mention it. "Plane", "Demiplane", I guess if you want to get technical you can make a point there since in different editions I believe it went from one to the other, but realistically, planes, demiplanes, same thing, close enough, and really, kind of irrelevant in the context of the Netherese returning since it's not like any of the novels or sourcebooks really went into much detail about what the City of Shade was like on the other plane, to the point that a differentiation between "plane" and "demiplane" would be relevant.
Indeed. The plane of Shadow, and Shade's disappearance, were covered in 2E.
My issue with their return is similar to deserk's -- not that they returned, but they returned and immediately started kicking the crap out of everyone (up to and including the absolutely pointless and nonsensical destruction of the Lost Vale) and lurking under every rock. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2021 : 22:18:26
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quote:
Originally posted by deserk
It's fine showcasing other non-evil drow communities, but Lolth should be one of the most prominent gods of the drow, followed by Ghaunadaur, Vhaeraun, Eilistraee and Kiaransalee.
Ed said Ghaunadaur is rather niche, IIRC. Vhaeraun and Eilistraee come after Lolth.
I mean, Ghaunadaur kinda sabotaged himself in a very stupid way in his story, so it makes sense. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2021 : 00:36:47
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| -Ghaunadaur is one of my favorite deities. I feel that it's limited depictions in novels and even sourcebooks could've been done much better. It's basically an "alien" slime that is so incomprehensible to the humans (or whatever other sentient D&D race) mind that people who are f'ed up in the head worship it, that people who feel so hopeless and despondent and completely ostracized from society worship it. It should be a lot more nuanced and, really, much more scary than "giant ooze god". |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2021 : 00:50:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
[...]that people who feel so hopeless and despondent and completely ostracized from society worship it. It should be a lot more nuanced
That's how I played him when I ran FR. I liked it for its own value, and also because it added another layer the conflict between him and Eilistraee beyond the pit of Ghaunadaur incident (since both Eilistraee and Ghaunadaur reach to outcasts, but while the former offers hope and healing, the latter basically puts a dark twist on that). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
237 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2021 : 00:51:10
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The city of Llurth Dreier happens to be one of the most populous drow cities in Faerun (with a population of 400,000 according to Demihuman Deities 2E) and is also a centre of faith for Ghaundaur and is ruled by his clerics. In addition to cults of the Elder Eye (which seem to persist in virtually every drow city that is noted to have heretical groups), I would say that would make Ghaundaur one of the most prominent Dark Seldarine faiths. Also, he isn't just worshipped by the drow, but by aboleths, ropers and other intelligent aberrations.
Eilistraeeans don't have a single settlement to their own apart from the Promenade (which numbers around a couple of hundred) and a few sanctuaries scattered throughout Faerun. Vhaeraunites have it slightly better with a few settlements in the Forest of Mir, as well as in Ultoksamrin, Chaulssin and Minauthkeep in Cormanthor.
Races of Faerun (3E) turns out to specifically say that Vhaeraun is the second largest Dark Seldarine faith. Though if Ed specifically said that Ghaunadaur is less prominent than Eilistraee, then of course that must be true. But then there must be Eilistraeean settlements we don't know about to counter what lore we do know. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2021 : 01:06:52
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To be fair to Ghaunadaur, Ed was likely talking about his own Realms. He put Eilistraee at 22% or so of all drow, Vhaeraun a bit more than her, but comparable. Since drow are unique in the Realms in that worshipping a member of the Dark Seldarine almost always means that you don't worship any other of them (with the exception of Lolth and Selvetarm), this would leave Lolth+Selvetarm, Ghaunadaur, Kiaransalee combined at more or less 50%. Since Ed also said that Lolth has many more worshippers than others, she would be left having what? 40+% of the drow, leaving Ghaunadaur and Kiaransalee in niche positions.
Of course, in WotC's Realms Eilistraee is likely of very little relevance in the grand scheme of things, and likely is behind Ghaunadaur in terms of drow followers. 2e (TDotU, IIRC) placed the non-evil drow at 15% of total, and said that most of them follow Eilistraee, so I guess Vhaeraun and Ghaunadaur would be quite above that. So, if we say Eilistraee has like 10% of the drow following her, and make a wild assumption that Ghaunadaur has 15, Vhaeraun 20, Kiaransalee 5 (random numbers, I know, but it's to get a rough understanding of the distribution), that would leave Lolth+Selvetarm at 50%. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 01 Jun 2021 01:08:20 |
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Kvn.Luck
Acolyte
Australia
1 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2021 : 01:08:13
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| The general consensus on this thread seems to be that it’s great that the Drow are getting more nuance, but they are ignoring all the Drow lore that already exists that provides the nuance WotC wants. Is this correct? |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2021 : 01:17:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Kvn.Luck
The general consensus on this thread seems to be that it’s great that the Drow are getting more nuance, but they are ignoring all the Drow lore that already exists that provides the nuance WotC wants. Is this correct?
That's my stance, and--as far as I've read--that of many other posters here.
I think that the new cities and the already existing non-evil (or at least non-Lolth) drow should both get some spotlight, and that there's room for all. It's wrong that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun get sidelined, in a rework that focuses on their sphere of activity at that. It's wrong that the work that people like Ed Greenwood and Elaine Cunningham did to give nuance to the drow gets dismissed and downplayed into irrelevance. It's wrong that WotC pretends that people like Ed and Elaine didn't try to make the drow better, and that they weren't the ones to doggedly trash such efforts in first place.
Look at this tweet by Brian R. James, designer for 4e "Menzoberranzan, City of Intrigue" (https://twitter.com/brianrjames/status/1398382595486863362)
quote:
I love this new drow lore. What I hate is that WotC ripped out all mention of good drow from my last project with them in 2011. Drow were evil, end of story they said. Despite all the existing lore to the contrary. I’ll be over here in a corner screaming into a pillow.
That sums up WotC's decades-long stance on the matter. Brian James and Eric Menge worked to reintroduce Eilistraee and Vhaeraun in the Realms as archfey with their own drow following. The WotC editors discarded their work and flied around statements like "Eilistraee is an internet meme".
Besides, the dynamics between the new cities and Vhaeraun&Eilistraee have the potential to make for some nice plot hooks and stories. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 01 Jun 2021 01:20:58 |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
214 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2021 : 01:36:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Kvn.Luck
The general consensus on this thread seems to be that it’s great that the Drow are getting more nuance, but they are ignoring all the Drow lore that already exists that provides the nuance WotC wants. Is this correct?
My stance is that drow are boring and overused, and giving them more attention at the expense of other races and regions is a bad move on Wizards's part.
I really hope the summer storyline isn't a drow-focused adventure, but this media blitz has me worried that it is. |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2021 : 01:39:06
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Isn’t the overwhelming opinion of this forum that canon can go to hell somewhere in the 3e-4e era? I don’t get being upset about changes made when you already haven’t accepted the last decade or two of them.
Whatever WotC does with the 5e Realms doesn’t do anything to the 4e-ish Realms that live on in my head and at my tables. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2021 : 02:05:50
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Isn’t the overwhelming opinion of this forum that canon can go to hell somewhere in the 3e-4e era? I don’t get being upset about changes made when you already haven’t accepted the last decade or two of them.
Whatever WotC does with the 5e Realms doesn’t do anything to the 4e-ish Realms that live on in my head and at my tables.
People can be invested in fiction, characters, etc... beyond eventual use in their TTRPG campaign. If everything we enjoyed about settings was in function of TTRPG campaigns, I would like nothing about FR or whatever other setting, because I've not been using published material for play in years. Likewise, people who don't play/DM also would like nothing.
You can have a reason to read/buy lore that isn't tied to your games, because this is fiction, and fiction exists/is enjoyed also unrelatedly to TTRPGs. Admittedly, I did lose quite a bit of interest, especially ever since FR became equal to RAS. The absence of substance in WotC's rhetoric about racism in fiction (since they're a reportedly racist company IRL) discourages me from supporting them as well. However, that doesn't mean that I want to stop caring/investing altogether, and that the constant sidelining of parts of the setting that are dear to me means nothing to me.
There's also the important matter of the work of a lot of people who have tried to build the Realms for decades getting discarded and downplayed into irrelevance. As well as RAS, who played a major role in this update, either appropriating their work, or denying its relevance with his statement of "I created the drow in FR", which he totally didn't. He didn't even create the greater part of them, or even key aspects like Lolth. This shouldn't go unobserved, because it's a dismissive and squalid behavior towards many creative artists. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 01 Jun 2021 02:14:42 |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
214 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2021 : 02:35:39
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
I don’t get being upset about changes made when you already haven’t accepted the last decade or two of them.
That's my feeling as well. Wizards and TSR have always run roughshod over the Forgotten Realms. There was the Time of Troubles, the Spellplague, the Second Sundering, etc. After so many major upheavals, I don't understand how anyone can be upset about anything as small as this. |
Edited by - HighOne on 01 Jun 2021 04:00:07 |
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2021 : 03:57:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Look at this tweet by Brian R. James, designer for 4e "Menzoberranzan, City of Intrigue" (https://twitter.com/brianrjames/status/1398382595486863362)
Oh my. Reading some of the names in the replies in that tweet and what they had to say is downright depressing. As much of a downer it must be to read of these changes as a Realms fan, I imagine it's much worse for many of the FR writers and designers that got blindsided by this. |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2021 : 06:35:39
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quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
I don’t get being upset about changes made when you already haven’t accepted the last decade or two of them.
That's my feeling as well. Wizards and TSR have always run roughshod over the Forgotten Realms. There was the Time of Troubles, the Spellplague, the Second Sundering, etc. After so many major upheavals, I don't understand how anyone can be upset about anything as small as this.
This place really enjoys its outrage!
I’m happy to keep romping around in my 4e Realms, and the greybeards can enjoy their Old Grey Box, and literally none of us need to care about new material that we won’t ever use. Most of this forum doesn’t even play 5e! |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
237 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2021 : 10:01:20
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I think most FR fans even if they are from 2E and 3E want to see the Realms expanded, but preferably by the hands of Ed Greenwood and other classic FR designers. Though there's a tough chance for that happening. The only real chance is through them making books for DMs Guild.
Though I dislike 4E strongly (because it nuked half of Faerun and killed many gods), I did like some developments done to places like the Moonshae, Chessenta, Tethyr, Erlkazar, Damara and Vaasa, which I can eagerly incorporate to my own FR setting.
I like the concept of 5E since it's seemingly restored a lot of things 4E destroyed, but it's hard to have a real opinion of it, since we've only seen what the North and the Western Heartlands looks like in 5E, while the state of the rest of the Realms is a complete mystery. |
Edited by - deserk on 01 Jun 2021 12:24:04 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2021 : 14:53:36
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quote:
Originally posted by deserk
I think most FR fans even if they are from 2E and 3E want to see the Realms expanded, but preferably by the hands of Ed Greenwood and other classic FR designers. Though there's a tough chance for that happening. The only real chance is through them making books for DMs Guild.
Though I dislike 4E strongly (because it nuked half of Faerun and killed many gods), I did like some developments done to places like the Moonshae, Chessenta, Tethyr, Erlkazar, Damara and Vaasa, which I can eagerly incorporate to my own FR setting.
I like the concept of 5E since it's seemingly restored a lot of things 4E destroyed, but it's hard to have a real opinion of it, since we've only seen what the North and the Western Heartlands looks like in 5E, while the state of the rest of the Realms is a complete mystery.
We have some info on the rest of Faerun thanks to the SCAG and some 5e novels, but it's thin gruel indeed, and very little on details. We know Unther and Mulhorand are back and many if not most of their Gods too for example. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2021 : 14:55:55
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| I thought the Aevendrow were in the Cold Lands, but now that I know more they are either likely in Icewind Dale or the Great Glacier. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2021 : 15:27:47
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quote:
Originally posted by deserk
I think most FR fans even if they are from 2E and 3E want to see the Realms expanded, but preferably by the hands of Ed Greenwood and other classic FR designers.
Indeed. We want to see the Realms treated as more than a buffet for current "designers" to pick and choose what they like and throw away the rest. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2021 : 22:57:57
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
I don’t get being upset about changes made when you already haven’t accepted the last decade or two of them.
That's my feeling as well. Wizards and TSR have always run roughshod over the Forgotten Realms. There was the Time of Troubles, the Spellplague, the Second Sundering, etc. After so many major upheavals, I don't understand how anyone can be upset about anything as small as this.
This place really enjoys its outrage!
I’m happy to keep romping around in my 4e Realms, and the greybeards can enjoy their Old Grey Box, and literally none of us need to care about new material that we won’t ever use. Most of this forum doesn’t even play 5e!
Despite appearances, it's not as though the majority of us want to complain. And while some here are grognards, that isn't all of us. I myself am a millennial (was introduced to the Realms in 2005 when I was 15).
Yes, we can ignore/change what we don't like, and play the edition we want--that doesn't mean we aren't affected. This site in particular is as much about the world of the Realms as it is the TTRPG aspect of it--so when WotC suddenly flips things on its head, you're going to see reactions. As Irennan pointed out, yes, it's a game, but its also fiction, and many of us are invested in that fiction, even though we can ignore what we don't like. D&D may be the ultimate AO3, but that doesn't mean we can't care about what happens in the "official" material. If you've invested yourself (emotionally, monetarily, etc), you're going to care about what the "designers" do with it, especially with the slapdash way they're treating it now. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 01 Jun 2021 22:58:46 |
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2021 : 00:29:08
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| For what it's worth in that twitter thread posted earlier, Salvatore seems to have confirmed that Corellon's curse turning Drow skin color from brown to ebony is gone. Good riddance. Still upset at the seeming erasure of basically everything else though. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2021 : 10:12:30
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quote:
Originally posted by TKU
For what it's worth in that twitter thread posted earlier, Salvatore seems to have confirmed that Corellon's curse turning Drow skin color from brown to ebony is gone. Good riddance. Still upset at the seeming erasure of basically everything else though.
Not in my Realms. Salvatore needs to toe the line - he wants to get paid. I have no such motivations.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2021 : 15:20:00
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For me, this doesn't change the lore at all. I'm going on my own interpretation that
A) Lloth betrayed the Seldarine
B) The 4th Crown Wars occur, showing a significant amount of Ilythiir elves using dark magic.
C) Corellon curses them, in entirety without exception.
D) Lloth, seeing the treatment reveals to them that she is the source of their magic (right or wrong, we don't know?) leading them from the sunlit world to the Underdark, where they found Menzoberranzan.
E) Some 'cursed drow don't follow Lloth and instead head north / south to flee. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2021 : 15:44:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
For me, this doesn't change the lore at all. I'm going on my own interpretation that
A) Lloth betrayed the Seldarine
B) The 4th Crown Wars occur, showing a significant amount of Ilythiir elves using dark magic.
C) Corellon curses them, in entirety without exception.
D) Lloth, seeing the treatment reveals to them that she is the source of their magic (right or wrong, we don't know?) leading them from the sunlit world to the Underdark, where they found Menzoberranzan.
E) Some 'cursed drow don't follow Lloth and instead head north / south to flee.
That's already changing a lot of history.
The Ilythiiri, after being exiled, didn't immediately follow Lolth. We know that, starting since the Second Crown War, Lolth's cult was spreading among the Ilythiiri *rulers*, not even the people as a whole, and that they already knew it was Lolth who was giving them powers.
However, after the drow were chased underground by the combined might of the remaining elven armies (they didn't choose to go under), they didn't build civilizations for a long time. When they started pulling their sh*t together, Lolth was among the main deities worshipped, but Ghaunadaur rivaled her. It isn't like the drow "listened to Lolth" and went down. That's bullshit. Lolth became so prominent only after even a longer time. And she wasn't prominent before the Descent.
Also, Menzo was founded *millennia* after the Descent, while these articles imply that Lolth rebelled, some drow followed her willingly, they went in the Underdark and founded Menzo. Setting aside that this is nonsensical and sh*tty characterization even in the Mordenkainen assumption that they're using (why would Lolth want to go underground after rebelling, instead of claiming good land on Toril? She was kicked from Arvandor, not from the surface of Toril, and she wasn't that evil and cruel according to the Mordenkainen story. She just wanted the elves to develop their full potential), this is just false in FR history.
As for the cursed drow who didn't follow Lolth, that already was in the lore. They should have used those drow and tie the new enclaves to them. Moreover, going by logic, these cities should be tied to either Ilythiir or, most likely, survivors of Miyeritar. You would have a presence of Eilistraean or Vhaeraunites faith in those enclaves, since Eilistraee used to be the patroness of Miyeritar, and Vhaeraun had the strongest following in Ilythiiri. Now, I understand that it's too early to make assumptions about this particular point (ties with Miyeritar or Ilythiir), but yeah... We know RAS is involved, we know he's claiming that the FR drow are his creation (therefore discarding and refusing to acknowledge the vast majority of the drow lore out there and the work of the other artists that worked on FR) and that *his* vision is getting applied to FR drow. This alone is discouraging news for anyone who hoped to see ties with the history of FR drow and elves. In addition to that, the way they talk in the articles is disconnected from the FR history and instead uses the Mordenkainen retcon (Lolth rebelled against Corellon, some elves immediately followed her, they became drow. There wasn't any time in which Lolth was forgotten, any time in which Ilythiir and Miyeritar appeared, etc...)
One final note, they're saying that the drow who followed LOlth are a minority. While I don't mind this, because the natural evolution of events should totally lead to this, they're not doing it by developing the story and having Lolth lose ungodly numbers of followers because of how idiotic her whole premise is. They're saying that most drow didn't follow Lolth and remained on the surface, while only a spinter group went down. This has 2 major consequences, as well as internal inconsistencies:
1)Using the assumption that they're using, aka "the drow followed Lolth, they weren't chased underground",ì and "the curse didn't happen", why would this majority of drow who didn't follow her stay hidden? They're the majority, or at least they have big numbers. No need to hide. Even if some of them wanted to stay hidden, why there weren't splinter groups who didn't want to hide, and instead went their own way to found other settlements and whatever, like you'd expect in situations like this (because, you know, people aren't a hive mind)? Don't give me "reputation" as an answer, because they could have done this even before the Lolthite started to spread their crap.
2)If the majority of drow consists of 2 cities on the surface, then that's one more proof they're erasing all underdark drow cities except Menzo, because if they acknowledged the many underdark udadrow cities, then there's no way that Callidae and Saekolath would make up the majority of the drow. Hints are already there, for example Saekolath being south and therefore far from Lolth's influence, which is stupid, because the south has bastions of Lolthite faith. This further reinforces the idea that Menzo is the only udadrow city in their mind (or the only relevant udadrow city). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 03 Jun 2021 03:17:02 |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2021 : 16:04:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
If the majority of drow consists of 2 cities on the surface, then that's one more proof they're erasing all underdark drow cities except Menzo, because if they acknowledged the many underdark udadrow cities, then there's no way that Callidae and Saekolath would make up the majority of the drow.
I find the idea of erasure of Underdark drow cities besides Menzoberranzan to be strange, since as recently as 2015 (so the 5th edition era) with Out of the Abyss there were other drow cities still mentioned to exist. That goes alongside various drow in the Underdark, some quite powerful, who explicitly are against Lolth (such as Vizeran DeVir, who isn't a minor bit player but somebody with a large role in the OotA adventure).
So whenever the change happened for this development behind the scenes in Wizards - I would guess it was somewhere in the marketing department or one of their subsets, myself - it is a very recent decision indeed. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2021 : 16:06:28
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| The only difference is that they're now following RAS' "vision", according to the Dragon+ mag. He even said something like "I don't believe we're retrofitting, because Menzoberranzan is staying the same", as if the whole existing FR drow lore boiled down to Menzo. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 02 Jun 2021 16:06:43 |
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Upcoming changes to drow
