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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
 Posted - 26 May 2021 : 20:51:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
That would be fitting in the case that I describe, but not if Corellon's children used something so intimately tied to him to do something horrible. Think if a parent gave a rocket launcher to his children, and they destroyed the neighbours' house. Said parent would surely share A LOT of the responsibilities, and if he didn't try to at least repay the neighbours, he'd be not only friggin' stupid (for giving a rocket launcher to his children, though this isn't the case for Corellon), but also a total ass (this is definitely the case for Corellon).
I think Corellon has been acting like a parent, here. He let his kids make mistakes, and he's putting it on them to pay for those mistakes.
And with the Descent, they are most definitely paying for it, even now, thousands of years later. Every elf slain by a drow -- especially those slaughtered in raids -- is another installment of that payment. And that's a steep payment, since elves reproduce slowly. Even drow reproduce more quickly than elves, and drow/elf crossbreeds are drow. If the drow weren't so busy killing themselves, I think they could have wiped out the elves entirely.
And the other big elven screwup, the Sundering, not only slew elves in large numbers, it also weakened the strongest thing the elves had going for them -- High Magic.
Elves are paying a steep price for their follies.
Also, just because we haven't seen Corellon doing more, it doesn't mean he hasn't done more. I'd expect that his followers have done a lot, behind the scenes, working to weaken Lolth's grip on the drow.
It is canon that the Akh'Faen'Tel'Quess High Magic ritual has been used a couple of times to change an elf to a drow specifically for purposes of infiltration. Maybe that's just in the Cormanthyr area that it's only been done twice; it seems likely to me that this spell would have been used a lot more frequently than that. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 May 2021 01:53:14 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2021 : 01:52:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
That would be fitting in the case that I describe, but not if Corellon's children used something so intimately tied to him to do something horrible. Think if a parent gave a rocket launcher to his children, and they destroyed the neighbours' house. Said parent would surely share A LOT of the responsibilities, and if he didn't try to at least repay the neighbours, he'd be not only friggin' stupid (for giving a rocket launcher to his children, though this isn't the case for Corellon), but also a total ass (this is definitely the case for Corellon).
And with the Descent, they are most definitely paying for it, even now, thousands of years later. Every elf slain by a drow -- especially those slaughtered in raids -- is another installment of that payment. And that's a steep payment, since elves reproduce slowly. Even drow reproduce more quickly than elves, and drow/elf crossbreeds are drow. If the drow weren't so busy killing themselves, I think they could have wiped out the elves entirely.
And the other big elven screwup, the Sundering, not only slew elves in large numbers, it also weakened the strongest thing the elves had going for them -- High Magic.
Elves are paying a steep price for their follies.
This is kind of how I see it. In a way, Corellon is being punished for what happened--Lolth gained more followers due to the Descent, and Corellon and his children--the elves--have had to live with the ramifications since. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2021 : 01:55:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Elven religion in 5e is very Gnostic, Corelli is "The God above Gods" and Lolth is the materialist, power hungry Demiurge that trapped Elven souls into monograms from the Immortal shapeshifters they had been in 5e lore. The Seldarine are the Aeons and the Dark Selderine are Archons functional. Elven souls now even reincarnate. All are functionally eminations of Corellon Larethian, even Lolth.
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Elves of Faerūn
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2021 : 02:09:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's no need to assign divine culpability when mortal arrogance can serve the same purpose.
However, if the latter heavily detracts from the benefactor status of the race/species in question, then it may become slightly problematic? Faerunian elves are similar to generic D&D elves in that they're overwhelmingly Chaotic Good. Granted, this doesn't indicate that their people as a whole are divine automatons that never morally err, but it does set a precedent that - in my opinion - should at least sometimes be observed.
Also, we are presently talking about one major societal disaster. Start piling up more egregious "mistakes" of this general nature and that label of "freedom and life loving friends" will start peeling off in a hurry  .
I disagree. Good people can still make mistakes. And I think it less problematic to assume mortal fallibility, when it's already established as a thing, than to put it all on a deity.
We don't disagree that good people are capable of making mistakes; the consistency and severity of mistakes made before that moral descriptor begins to look suspect is what's up for discussion. Problematically, elves live in a frame of reference way beyond anything we are familiar with. If a human commits a grievously offensive act, well...barring magical intervention, they're going to be dead in roughly seventy to eighty years and the next generation has to pick up the slack of reparations. If an elf commits a grievously offensive act, they could conceivably persist for close to seven centuries. Now, elves aren't the longest lived race in the Realms, but most of their neighbors are short-lived by comparison; the sylvan folk arguably have a greater responsibility to the innumerable generations of humans that will pass before their eyes.
Generally speaking, FR deities are kind of like the Grecian deities in that they are - non-human gods included - very "human" and prone to "human" failings.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
FR Elves have committed atrocities that put humans to shame. They're one of the most genocide-happy people out there. That's always been the case.
In your estimation, should Faerunian elves be shifted down to Chaotic Neutral or even Chaotic Evil? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2021 : 03:11:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
We don't disagree that good people are capable of making mistakes; the consistency and severity of mistakes made before that moral descriptor begins to look suspect is what's up for discussion. Problematically, elves live in a frame of reference way beyond anything we are familiar with. If a human commits a grievously offensive act, well...barring magical intervention, they're going to be dead in roughly seventy to eighty years and the next generation has to pick up the slack of reparations. If an elf commits a grievously offensive act, they could conceivably persist for close to seven centuries. Now, elves aren't the longest lived race in the Realms, but most of their neighbors are short-lived by comparison; the sylvan folk arguably have a greater responsibility to the innumerable generations of humans that will pass before their eyes.
I fail to see the point, here.
There were almost 8000 years between the Sundering and the Descent. The Killing Wave, another slaughter on the part of the elves, was almost 10000 years after that.
We are talking literally multiple millennia between these events. Even with the lifespan you quote, that's still more than eleven generations of separation. It's actually a lot more than eleven, since generations are not measured by the maximum old age. If you assumed an elven generation to be 250 years, then we're talking at least 30 generations.
Maybe it's just me, but I'm not going to condemn an entire race for something that's happened a handful of times, DOZENS of generations apart. Especially since each of these things was done by a relatively small number of elves, each time.
Yes, there are things done by elves that cannot be forgiven. But if you want to trash all elves for the acts of a few, millennia ago and millennia apart, then you need to apply the same judgement to every single sentient race in the Realms.
From Bartok, in the movie Anastasia: "Oh sure, blame the bat. What the heck? We're easy targets." |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 May 2021 03:14:33 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2021 : 09:39:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
In your estimation, should Faerunian elves be shifted down to Chaotic Neutral or even Chaotic Evil?
I think that all races should be neutral by default, in that you have both good people and asses in every people. But yeah, I really don't think that elves deserve the label of CG as a whole. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2021 : 09:51:21
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@Wooly and Corellon's Devout
But my point isn't that Corellon should be punished. I just wanted him to be a somewhat more positive character. As I mentioned, he had already made tons of mistakes before the Descent, mistakes that led to the Crown Wars. Do we really need the definitive "certificate of a**hole-ry" for him?
He let the elves make mistake, but when hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of deaths, as well as whole wars, came from those mistakes, and he proceeds to be only tangetially invested (if even that) in undoing those mistakes, that makes him look the textbook definition of uncaring, irresponsible (or maybe even someone who just wanted to watch the world burn?)
In fact, as far as remedying the Descent goes, if he is shown doing nothing (or far too little), that's what we know. Everything else is an assumption (maybe an educated one, but still an assumption. There's still a strong divide between what we're told--Corellon is a good guy--and what we're shown--not really). Especially because you also have his consistent lack of support towards Eilistraee's efforts, to the point of many elves spreading voices about her being a hoax, and him not even doing as little as bothering to send some dreams to them to promote some awareness and so on.
This is why I think it'd be good to make the elves the only responsibles of the Descent, and also have Corellon visibly involved in working with Eilistraee towards a reunion of all elvenkind. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2021 : 20:27:14
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It's worth reminding that Corellon welcomed Eilistraee back to Arvandor at some point (Faiths & Pantheons 3e), and looked after both her and Vhaeraun's faithful for about a hundred years up to the post-Sundering return of many deities, including both the living and the dead (Lady Penitent trilogy). Corellon also conspired with Mystra to protect his Twins from the coming disaster that Mystra was at least sensing if not fully detailed on (Lady Penitent trilogy, The Haunted Lands Trilogy, Ed Greenwood, deductive reasoning from reveals) - Labelas Enoreth may have also had a hand in making a prediction about the future, where he saw neither Twin existing in the wake of the coming Sundering (Faiths & Pantheons - according to legend, Labelas can "peer through time", though this is not confirmed yet I think).
It's also worth noting that death is not a final end in the eyes of gods, because souls move on or reincarnate. Deities that value freedom like Corellon will naturally let their children make mistakes so that they can grow and learn from their mistakes. Vhaeraun for example, has moved on from his past grudges against Eilistraee and likely returned to Arvandor like the parable of the prodigal son (his faithful in the afterlife were after all already re-integrated into Arvandor).
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Edited by - Storyteller Hero on 27 May 2021 20:28:43 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2021 : 20:56:00
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Heh, Lady Penitent, that series makes Corellon look like both the ultimate slacker and the ultimate ass. Eilistraee puts her life on the line, to repair damage that *he* had a huge role in doing, and he does *absolutely* nothing the whole time. Then he comes at the end, and "claims" a bunch of souls, but only after a race change had been *forced* on them, because he couldn't bother to help them or his daughter before, when they still had the bodies they were born with, and that they were perfectly fine with. Not only that, the followers of Eilistraee who remained drow (i.e. most of them), as far as we get from Lady Penitent (I'm talking as written), didn't even fall under his protection. His two solars, who in the lore act as his voice, also explicitly said that the vast majority of the drow was a lost cause, only deserving to be cast down, and that Eilistraee had exhausted her use. Even if you make an effort and say that Corellon disagreed (from his actions--or lack thereof--it did indeed look like he didn't care too much), it still makes him look quite bad. Damn, every time I talk about drow stuff written by Smedman, I always end up being more and more thankful that it was retconned into oblivion.
Ed also said nothing about Corellon helping the twins, he only mentioned Mystra doing that. Everything else is only assumption, even if it makes sense for Corellon to help (in theory) and it's not even shown in the published material, because this whole matter is confined to Ed's lore, so the perception of Corellon we get from the published material remains unchanged. In short, I'm referring to the fact that, reading the published material, Corellon comes off as an overall negative character, and I'm honestly not a fan of it.
I'll give you the fact that he let Eilistraee rejoin Arvandor--probably that was a first sign of Corellon starting to be convinced to work with Eilistraee towards reconciliation.
As for deities and death, well, deities too know that wars are ugly, hatred is ugly, and that people would rather live a nice life rather than die in agony. Otherwise, why would a deity even help anyone in need? After all, once they die, they'll have their pretty happy life in the afterlife... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2021 : 21:25:51
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Corellon and Mystra colluding is deductive reasoning based on a combination of factors, not just Ed Greenwood's reveals.
Mystra maintains a close alliance with Corellon (Faiths & Pantheons 3e).
Mystra wouldn't be able to do much in Arvandor without Corellon's knowing or permission, since it's outside of her direct influence and not part of her Weave. Corellon would also not miss the changing of Eilistraee and "disappearance" of Vhaeraun. At the very least, Corellon would have been aware and inquiring after Eilistraee merged her church with Vhaeraun's, since it didn't happen in a vacuum.
Corellon stepped in to maintain Eilistraee's realm and hold over her church very quickly, which would make sense if he had been prepared somehow ahead of time.
Corellon has been an ass in the past, but he was not without moments of change - the story of Lafarallin for example, in which Corellon learned to recognize the possibility of redemption in mortal sinners.
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Edited by - Storyteller Hero on 27 May 2021 21:29:24 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2021 : 21:56:27
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@Storyteller Hero
Mytsra didn't need to reach Arvandor. After Qilué was killed, her soul went in the Weave and dragged the vast majority of Eilistraee's power with her, reducing the Dark Maiden to a nearly KO'ed status (maybe similar to post Miyeritar's fall?). Mystra then protected her, but the Spellplague and the stranding of the Weave made it impossible for Eilistraee to recover most of her power until the Second Sundering. Corellon doesn't need to play a role in this. But even if he did, this is something that only Candlekeep readers know, or people who read the notes in the Wiki (aka, very few). It's not part of anything WotC put out, and therefore has no influence on the impression that someone gets of Corellon.
As for him taking hold over his daughter's church, that's a flawed statement. Why? Because people make their own choices, and nothing tells us that Eilistraeans all of sudden started worshipping Corellon, especially since Eilistraee herself--in her weakened state--could still communicate with mortals, according to Ed (and her people would have no reason to suddenly switch to Corellon. Even clerics, as far as spell go, would be more likely to pray to Eilistraee's closer friends, whose trachings align more with hers--Selune and Sehanine). As far as we're told, Corellon only took the souls of the transformed Eilistraeans (that Smedman herself states to be in the hundreds, which is, likely unknowingly to Smedman and Athans, a narrow minority of the whole number of Eilistraeans). We don't even know if he was the one to maintain Eilistraee's realm, though I give you that this is likely. But what remains is that:
1)Corellon did nothing when the actual fight was going on, and when his daughter was putting herself on the line. He was entirely absent. That's what we're shown,
2)Corellon only offered protection after a race change was *forced* on people who were perfectly fine with the bodies they were born with, and the first impression this gives is that he wouldn't accept them based solely on the value of their actions, that they needed to be "the right race" to be accepted.
3)What I aid above is reinforced by the fact that Corellon's solars, his voice, claimed that the vast majority of drow was beyond any hope, deserving to be cast down, and that Eilistraee had exhausted her use. And solars/angels don't lie (nor they would have any reason to lie to some random like Cavatina). Even if you assume that Corellon disagreed, this still is some craptastic stuff we're shown and that is associated to him (like Lady Penitent does with everyone involved that isn't Lolth, tbh). We are not even given any sign that Corellon might disagree.
Ultimately, I'm talking about the impression we get of Corellon from what we're shown in published material in general, and in what we're shown Corellon is a petty, racist, and mostly uncaring deity, who is very quick to punish whole people for extremely flawed reasons, or for personal bias. I don't like this, tbh, which is one of the reasos why I'm glad LP was thrown into the trash bin where hit pieces that warp characters belong, and the reason why I'd like for the Descent to be attributed solely to the elves. I want Corellon to be a positive figure with flaws (like I guess he was meant to be), not a negative figure with a couple redeeming qualities. |
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Edited by - Irennan on 27 May 2021 22:09:49 |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2021 : 22:50:55
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@Irennan
The "solars" (who were neither described AS solars nor angels in the novels - it is an incorrect assumption to call them "solars") at the end of the Lady Penitent trilogy were actually the demigods Lashrael and Felarathael (Elves of Evermeet: Gods and Goddesses of Evermeet).
CORRECTION EDIT: The two servitors ARE described as solars in CORELLON'S entry in Demihuman Deities rather than in their own entries.
Though they are well known as messengers of Corellon, I don't think they were officially delivering Corellon's perspective (the only confirmed message from Corellon was a greeting) -- their other purpose is to defend elves; in this case, the soul of an important servant of Eilistraee needed protection and guidance on the way to Arvandor. The messengers do not actually serve as Corellon's direct voice - they are messengers but not part of Corellon's body like avatars would be.
As such, since the two did not state that they were speaking for Corellon other than the greeting, what was said at the end of the book about the drow could just as likely be personal opinion and hyperbole - Arborea, the home plane of Arvandor, is known as a place of great passions (Planescape, Manual of the Planes) and as such the inhabitants are likely to speak in exaggerated tones when discussing events of great import and their feelings about what's happening.
I never stated that Corellon made the people worship him -- he however likely kept the church from collapsing and protected the faithful, conceptually symbolized by when Lolth tried to snatch eilistraee's pieces on the cosmic sava board. A reason to group together (albeit temporarily) with Corellon's church would be collective security, as well as the magic that Corellon could offer the priests of Eilistraee. It was also likely known among the followers that Eilistraee's realm was back in Arvandor, and that Vhaeraun's realm had been merged with Eilistraee's, so Corellon would not be unrelated to their cause.
Corellon had already offered protection to drow when he allowed both Eilistraee's and Vhaeraun's faithful to be integrated into Arvandor. When he ended Eilistraee's exile, Corellon had already made it clear that he would accept drow who accept Eilistraee's cause since Arvandor became the new home of Eilistraee's divine realm.
Corellon has a lot of enemies to deal with throughout multiple spheres and planes, and he can't be everywhere at once; there are limits to even the greater deities (Faiths & Avatars). Stepping in to prevent Eilistraee's realm from collapsing and preventing Lolth from destroying Eilistraee's faithful en masse was already a lot from the busy Coronal. Worse, if Corellon started marching armies like crazy he could escalate the conflict, or divert resources that would create openings and opportunities for enemies (ex. Gruumsh is always watching...). There's also the question of the rules and stakes for the cosmic sava game being played between Eilistraee and Lolth, whatever they might be.
When looking beyond the surface, despite his flaws, I'd say that Corellon is a lot more caring than he might come off across as. He even maintains a large coalition close by and forms alliances with non-Seldarine deities to at least try to make up for his shortcomings as a deity despite being so powerful.
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Edited by - Storyteller Hero on 28 May 2021 03:19:31 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2021 : 23:25:44
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But they are solars in the lore. Solars powerful enough to be demipowers, as well as Corellon's servants. And one of them is most often sent to deliver messages on Corellon's behalf. Regardless, their role in the novel, so the perception that readers get, is to be mouthpieces for what Corellon is doing. Once again, we may be sit here splitting hair, but the perception that people--especially not lore-savvy people (aka most of them)--would get is a bad one, reinforced by what we see (or rather not see) in the rest of the story.
About Arvandor, Lady Penitent ignores that Eilistraee's realm is in Arvandor. The assumption is that Eilistraee's realm was somewhere else, and that the transformed drow would be "returning to Arvandor". It's one of the countless, massive pieces of total nonsense that Smedman forced on the Realms. Anyway, Eilistraee's people have never been shown worshipping or acknowledging Corellon in almost any piece of lore or fiction. Why would they swap to him, or even worship him alongisde Eilistraee? Worship is not a gratuitous thing--it comes out of identifying with the deity stands for, or from having a personal story with said deity. Clerics might have a practical reason to worship Corellon (though, as I said, Selune and Sehanine would be more likely choices), but lay followers wouldn't feel compelled. Even more so because Corellon did absolutely nothing in the times of direst need. He's just some god they never interacted with that showed up after everything was lost (heck, in the books themselves, the priestesses we're shown care absolutely nothing about the brown elves thing or about Corellon, they're just anguished that all is lost). Corellon also didn't save anyone, because Lolth could do crap to Eilistraee's followers--she couldn't claim them, because that's not how the afterlife works in FR, nor she could kill them, because deities don't just run around smiting mortals.
But this is really beyond the point. What we see is Corellon taking the brown elves, only after they were transformed, and not doing absolutely anything (not even a name drop) before they were transformed. It doesn't even seem like Corellon is saving the brown elves, because, in the metaphorical game, while he slaps Lolth's hand away, she then realizes that they already were brown elves and that she couldn't do anything (since it was Q'arlynd's spell that did that). Basically, we're shown Corellon doing literally nothing except showing up to claim some free souls, and only after they were changed to suit his tastes, and his daughter had gone through all the crap. This isn't just the surface, this is ALL we're shown. There's a fundamental rule in narrative, that says that if something has relevance, you need to show it. Here we're only shown a crappy behavior, and I don't like it.
As for the justification for his lack of intervention, he could have sent help of any kind, as the game thingy was pure, pointless nonsense. Why should he limit to act on the board, when he could have mobilitated actual resources in the real world to help Eilistraee? Since, ultimately, the board was just a metaphor and the real stuff happened in the real world. Moreover, this was an extremely important cause, absolute top priority, not your next everyday squibble. That was certainly worth of his intervention and of taking a couple risks. Had the Seldarine bothered to do anything, Lolth might have been taken out for good.
Though using Lady Penitent to discuss whether Corellon could be cut some slack is not a good idea. It holds no value as lore, and it was a hit piece that trashed characters that were supposed to be postive, and ended up being negative or outright disgusting. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 27 May 2021 23:32:03 |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2021 : 01:07:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
But they are solars in the lore. Solars powerful enough to be demipowers, as well as Corellon's servants.
Actually, they're not solars in the lore. The FR wiki has had a number of errors due to assumptions made by the page authors, and this is one of them. The wiki author for the pages for Lashrael and Felarathael got the text wrong on the incorrect solar reference. They are referred to as [servitors] in the source text, which is a general term that's not strictly tied to being a solar, much less an angel.
CORRECTION EDIT: The two servitors ARE described as solars in CORELLON'S entry in Demihuman Deities rather than in their own entries.
Faiths & Pantheons 3e was released on May 2002. The Lady Penitent trilogy began in 2007. It was already established in canon literature that Eilistraee's realm is in Arvandor for about 5 years before the Lady Penitent trilogy was published. The novel authors do have to work within some restrictions when they write the stories, and this was probably one of them. Corellon being able to so quickly and easily maintain Eilistraee's realm is at least a strong clue that it was in Arvandor for the Lady Penitent trilogy.
The pieces on the board were not souls in the afterlife, they're the living pawns in the game fighting in the conflict between the gods. The pieces on Eilistraee's side represented her church in the living realms as well as subsidiary resources such as Q'arlynd Melarn. Lolth trying to grab at them was certainly not forbidden should she have won a complete victory rather than being tricked into a false victory. Enslavement, killing, corruption, etc. of living beings -- stuff like that is what is being symbolized there.
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Edited by - Storyteller Hero on 28 May 2021 03:57:01 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2021 : 01:45:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
But they are solars in the lore. Solars powerful enough to be demipowers, as well as Corellon's servants.
Actually, they're not solars in the lore. The FR wiki has had a number of errors due to assumptions made by the page authors, and this is one of them. The wiki author for the pages for Lashrael and Felarathael got the text wrong on the incorrect solar reference. They are referred to as [servitors] in the source text, which is a general term that's not strictly tied to being a solar, much less an angel.
I'll need to check my Elves of Evermeet, but I'll trust you.
quote:
Faiths & Pantheons 3e was released on May 2002. The Lady Penitent trilogy began in 2007. It was already established in canon literature that Eilistraee's realm is in Arvandor for about 5 years before the Lady Penitent trilogy was published. The novel authors do have to work within some restrictions when they write the stories, and this was probably one of them. Corellon being able to so quickly and easily maintain Eilistraee's realm is at least a strong clue that it was in Arvandor for the Lady Penitent trilogy.
Exactly, but the whole thingy about the brown elves and Eilistraee's followers "returning to Arvandor" and being granted access to Arvandor by Corellon, was based on the idea that they couldn't go there before (what kind of return would be?), aka that the assumption was that Eilistraee's realm wasn't in Arvandor. Basically, Smedman/Athans had to warp the lore in order for their plot to even start to make sense. And this is just one of the countless instances of this kind of behavior on their side.
As for Corellon being quick. Heh, he's a greater deity. He can teleport at will massively long distances (save in other deities' domains, I guess, but I also guess that Eilistraee gave him access to her domain).
quote:
The pieces on the board were not souls in the afterlife, they're the living pawns in the game fighting in the conflict between the gods. The pieces on Eilistraee's side represented her church in the living realms as well as subsidiary resources such as Q'arlynd Melarn. Lolth trying to grab at them was certainly not forbidden should she have won a complete victory rather than being tricked into a false victory. Enslavement, killing, corruption, etc. of living beings -- stuff like that is what is being symbolized there.
You mean the very same stuff that she does all the time, and that she had failed up to then? What I meant is that it wasn't an immediate threat. If she had taken the pawns, nothing would have happened.
But in all honesty, I just want Corellon to be a bit less negative in the lore, and to have more positive actions under his belt. Lady Penitent does far more harm than good in this sense. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 28 May 2021 02:31:21 |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2021 : 02:12:13
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@Irennan
The reference in the wiki uses Demihuman Deities actually for the mistaken solar reference. In Demihuman Deities, they're "servitors" "mistakenly referred to as demipowers", while in Elves of Evermeet, they're "primary servitors" who are "spirits" with the book giving them the divine rank of demigods. So more or less demigods at least in power level, and not defined as angels/solars.
CORRECTION EDIT: The two servitors are described as solars in CORELLON'S entry in Demihuman Deities rather than in their own entries.
I will agree at the very least that the editing for the lore in general could have had better consistency, for the sake of preventing lore conflicts and lore gaps. I'm hoping that there will be a "lore czar" bringing it all together in future novels, which may or may not depend on the success of the upcoming DnD movie set in the Realms.
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Edited by - Storyteller Hero on 28 May 2021 03:56:40 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2021 : 02:34:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
@Irennan
The reference in the wiki uses Demihuman Deities actually for the mistaken solar reference. In Demihuman Deities, they're "servitors" "mistakenly referred to as demipowers", while in Elves of Evermeet, they're "primary servitors" who are "spirits" with the book giving them the divine rank of demigods. So more or less demigods at least in power level, and not defined as angels/solars.
I see, thank you for clarifying this matter. I was sure that EoE also said solar, but maybe after reading the wiki page, I must have conflated it with the actual sources. I'll also edit the wiki pages.
I do hope there will be a continuity editor too, but looking at how they're implementing these 2 drow cities (which I don't mind, but I do mind the erasure of mountains of history and lore), I'm not holding my breath. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 28 May 2021 02:34:45 |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2021 : 03:15:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
@Irennan
The reference in the wiki uses Demihuman Deities actually for the mistaken solar reference. In Demihuman Deities, they're "servitors" "mistakenly referred to as demipowers", while in Elves of Evermeet, they're "primary servitors" who are "spirits" with the book giving them the divine rank of demigods. So more or less demigods at least in power level, and not defined as angels/solars.
I see, thank you for clarifying this matter. I was sure that EoE also said solar, but maybe after reading the wiki page, I must have conflated it with the actual sources. I'll also edit the wiki pages.
I do hope there will be a continuity editor too, but looking at how they're implementing these 2 drow cities (which I don't mind, but I do mind the erasure of mountains of history and lore), I'm not holding my breath.
Ah wait -- something didn't feel right. Instead of the entries for Lashrael and Felarathael, I decided to check Corellon's entry in Demihuman Deities. Okay, in CORELLON's entry, they DO call them solars.
There's still a possible mistake in the wiki -- the page number in the reference. EDIT: It looks like it was a mistake on my end. Ugh.
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Edited by - Storyteller Hero on 28 May 2021 03:59:38 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2021 : 03:26:52
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| Thank you for being so thorough, though 101 matches for me. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2021 : 10:20:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
About Arvandor, Lady Penitent ignores that Eilistraee's realm is in Arvandor. The assumption is that Eilistraee's realm was somewhere else, and that the transformed drow would be "returning to Arvandor".
I might be missing something, but where does it tell you that Eilistraee's realm was in Arvandor?
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2021 : 13:13:02
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| 3e Faiths and Pantheons moved Eilistraee's realm to Arvandor, probably as a sign of the reconciliation efforts starting to bear fruits. Smedman and Athans proceeded to ignore this, because it would have made some huge plot points impossible. They did this with a plethora of other things, which is why I say that their stuff read as non-canon from the very beginning. The underlying assumptions are a giant ball of nonsense. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 28 May 2021 13:14:16 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2021 : 01:22:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
The pieces on the board were not souls in the afterlife, they're the living pawns in the game fighting in the conflict between the gods. The pieces on Eilistraee's side represented her church in the living realms as well as subsidiary resources such as Q'arlynd Melarn. Lolth trying to grab at them was certainly not forbidden should she have won a complete victory rather than being tricked into a false victory. Enslavement, killing, corruption, etc. of living beings -- stuff like that is what is being symbolized there.
It's been a while since I've read them, and all my FR novels are currently in storage boxes in my closet, but I seem to remember that it was both--in the "death" of Eilistraee, Lolth was waiting for her realm to disappear so that she could snatch the souls, while also watching her living followers. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2021 : 07:03:13
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
The pieces on the board were not souls in the afterlife, they're the living pawns in the game fighting in the conflict between the gods. The pieces on Eilistraee's side represented her church in the living realms as well as subsidiary resources such as Q'arlynd Melarn. Lolth trying to grab at them was certainly not forbidden should she have won a complete victory rather than being tricked into a false victory. Enslavement, killing, corruption, etc. of living beings -- stuff like that is what is being symbolized there.
It's been a while since I've read them, and all my FR novels are currently in storage boxes in my closet, but I seem to remember that it was both--in the "death" of Eilistraee, Lolth was waiting for her realm to disappear so that she could snatch the souls, while also watching her living followers.
Looking at the book in front of me, there's no mention of souls in the final part. Lolth is confused that Eilistraee's realm hasn't disappeared then Eilistraee is revealed on the board and cut down, then Lolth reaches for the pieces on the board, and Corellon steps in to stop Lolth from grabbing the pieces.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2021 : 07:31:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
3e Faiths and Pantheons moved Eilistraee's realm to Arvandor, probably as a sign of the reconciliation efforts starting to bear fruits. Smedman and Athans proceeded to ignore this, because it would have made some huge plot points impossible. They did this with a plethora of other things, which is why I say that their stuff read as non-canon from the very beginning. The underlying assumptions are a giant ball of nonsense.
I'm clearly missing something. Eilistraee isn't mentioned in Faiths & Pantheons.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2021 : 08:25:36
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
3e Faiths and Pantheons moved Eilistraee's realm to Arvandor, probably as a sign of the reconciliation efforts starting to bear fruits. Smedman and Athans proceeded to ignore this, because it would have made some huge plot points impossible. They did this with a plethora of other things, which is why I say that their stuff read as non-canon from the very beginning. The underlying assumptions are a giant ball of nonsense.
I'm clearly missing something. Eilistraee isn't mentioned in Faiths & Pantheons.
-- George Krashos
Uh? Maybe you are looking at 2e Faiths & Avatars?
She is definitely in the 3e Faiths & Pantheons, "Major Deities of Faerun" section, page 23. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2021 : 11:51:46
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| Yeah. The Player's Guide to Faerun also reinforces that her realm is Arvandor, though she maintains a small space in the Dmeonwebs. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2021 : 23:58:18
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My bad, I kept looking under the drow pantheon section. An interesting change in 3E. Doesn't gel with the text in F&P though - it talks about her voluntary exile from Arvandor and nothing about her rehabilitation. Pretty dumb call and stemmed from the 3E FRCS. Wish I'd picked that up in the read through although I suspect they would have ignored my request to change it.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2021 : 01:14:31
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I tend to agree with you there. Her volountary exile is about her sharing the same life as the drow--being one of them, and being there for them in the times of need. Sort of like going deep into the abyss herself to reach to those trapped there (especially drow, but also marginalized people of all sorts, hence her soft spot for outcasts). The strained if friendly relationship with the Seldarine, to symbolize that Eilistraee and her people are forging their own path, like Demihuman Deities said, is also cool.
On the other hand, consistent and tireless efforts are bound to give *some* results at some point, so it kinda made sense for her to start achieving something after *millennia* of work. That shift to Arvandor could have been caused by Eilistraee feeling like moving back in (and Corellon allowing it), after her followers had been successful in bulding friendships with Faerun elves in certain areas, maybe establishing a groundwork to bring more and more drow to a better future, and maybe encouraging the Seldarine to take a more active role in supporting her. After all, as Demihuman Deities says, Eilistraee's path welcomes all who share her love and celebration of life (or who want to take part in it), so she would be very happy to work with the Seldarine.
But you're right that the text doesn't support this idea. It's like the devs wanted to somehow grant her some success, but at the same time maintain the pariah element, which is like wanting to have your cake and eat it too. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 30 May 2021 01:28:44 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2021 : 18:15:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
The pieces on the board were not souls in the afterlife, they're the living pawns in the game fighting in the conflict between the gods. The pieces on Eilistraee's side represented her church in the living realms as well as subsidiary resources such as Q'arlynd Melarn. Lolth trying to grab at them was certainly not forbidden should she have won a complete victory rather than being tricked into a false victory. Enslavement, killing, corruption, etc. of living beings -- stuff like that is what is being symbolized there.
It's been a while since I've read them, and all my FR novels are currently in storage boxes in my closet, but I seem to remember that it was both--in the "death" of Eilistraee, Lolth was waiting for her realm to disappear so that she could snatch the souls, while also watching her living followers.
Looking at the book in front of me, there's no mention of souls in the final part. Lolth is confused that Eilistraee's realm hasn't disappeared then Eilistraee is revealed on the board and cut down, then Lolth reaches for the pieces on the board, and Corellon steps in to stop Lolth from grabbing the pieces.
Ah, okay, I thought Lolth was waiting to snatch up souls, but I could be misremembering. Though her (Eilistraee's) realm would imply souls. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Upcoming changes to drow
