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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3993 Posts

Posted - 09 Apr 2020 :  05:45:29  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Copper Elven Vampire made me look a lot at 3.5 material over the last few weeks and I've been re-reading and going over the contents in this book. Even over a decade later, I find myself absorbed by the lore and mechanics this tome provides. I understand the level of controversial aspects its created but honestest to goodness that was well needed in a system wrought with a level of brokenness that D&D really ever witnessed before.

Often referred to, usually with distain, the Book of Weeaboo Fightan Magic the ToB tried to bridge the significant gap between those of Martial abilities and ones who could do magic by creating a sub-system of maneuvers and stances that could usually do extraordinary things. Now I know I'm biased because I love warriors and I love this book, but understand that roughly 2/3 of the content can easily be attributed to Extraordinary abilities (as seen in a HUGH portion of feats and feature throughout 3.5 labeled [Ex] in their descriptions.

Another aspect that I truly admired was their attempts to make credible Warrior base classes that simply were better than their PHB counterparts. The Crusader, Swordsage, and Warblade could have easily replaced the Paladin, Monk, and Fighter (respectively) in any campaign and it would have fit thematically just fine. This was made even easier with the amazing work of Eytan Bernstein and his Class Chronicles that gave these classes and prestige classes of the book more Realms-life.

So tell me, how has this supplement enhanced your Gaming table? Any fun or interesting ways it affected your story? I do have a character, Sir Ivan Brightflame with a few levels of Crusader and a Purple Knight of Cormyr that utilizes his maneuvers as supplications to Helm in his fight against the Netherese.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."

Brimstone
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USA
3178 Posts

Posted - 09 Apr 2020 :  17:11:01  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bo9S was one of the best 3.5 books ever made. I created a Hobgoblin Warblade (IIRC 15th lvl 16th total) that used Diamond Mind and Iron Heart Maneuvers; He was fun. Mithral Tornado and Adamantine Tornado were fun! I don't remember what I named him, he was a blast the 3 or 4 sessions I played with that build.

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Lord Karsus
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USA
3407 Posts

Posted - 09 Apr 2020 :  18:25:34  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Never used anything in the book, but it was definitely needed. There's not reason to play a Fighter otherwise.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3993 Posts

Posted - 09 Apr 2020 :  20:32:05  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

Bo9S was one of the best 3.5 books ever made. I created a Hobgoblin Warblade (IIRC 15th lvl 16th total) that used Diamond Mind and Iron Heart Maneuvers; He was fun. Mithral Tornado and Adamantine Tornado were fun! I don't remember what I named him, he was a blast the 3 or 4 sessions I played with that build.



that sounds pretty awesome, I never thought to use a hobgoblin as a player character race in 3e. I'll say though, if I do 3.5 again I'm certainly going to check out the war blade because I only ever played swordmage and crusader.


quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Never used anything in the book, but it was definitely needed. There's not reason to play a Fighter otherwise.



Back on the wotc forums, somebody had a pretty detailed analysis called "Why fight the Fighter?" Then it went into the multiple ways via mechanics and tactics that monsters could easily avoid the fighter completely and pick off the squishier allies. With no reliable way to taunt/harrow/"stick" enemies to him or keep them there once he had them, he became extremely ineffective at one of his main roles.

Now I won't go on to say that the fighter MUST be a defender or has to protect people everywhere (the only issue I had with the 4e fighter personally) but there's a difference in the role being forced on you and not being able to fulfill the role at all. It's bad when a Cleric can do almost all the things your figher can do AND more.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."

Edited by - Diffan on 09 Apr 2020 20:56:47
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3407 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2020 :  05:07:37  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-I remember that thread. Even ignoring the power creep as more books came up with more stuff, the fighter just didn't stack up well. Maybe for someone who just wanted to play a relatively simple character combat wise, otherwise, but yeah, no reason to ever be a pure fighter.

-I actually just started a game a few weeks ago, and since one of the players is relatively inexperienced and only knows 5e (whereas I only know 3e), we basically adapted the 5e fighter with those abilities into a 3e framework. I'm not really a fan of the 5e fighter, it's an improvement on the fighter concept in general, but it seems pretty convoluted. In an ideal world, I would've reworked the fighter into a custom mish-mosh class borrowing heavily from the Tome of Battle, but that's also probably kind of confusing for someone relatively new to the game, and I didn't have the time anyway, so 5e fighter it is.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3993 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2020 :  17:11:17  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-I remember that thread. Even ignoring the power creep as more books came up with more stuff, the fighter just didn't stack up well. Maybe for someone who just wanted to play a relatively simple character combat wise, otherwise, but yeah, no reason to ever be a pure fighter.


Even with just feats, a 3.5 Fighter could get complicated with the bonuses they got, which modifiers go with which attacks, full-attack vs. Standard Action, situational modifiers from allies spells etc. Also, there was always the Warrior class that's just fighter without Bonus Feats. I have, as a sort of odd fascination, wanted to do a high level Fighter (no ToB) but with as many feats as I could include to see how good it was in a game and to see how over-shadowed it would get.

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-I actually just started a game a few weeks ago, and since one of the players is relatively inexperienced and only knows 5e (whereas I only know 3e), we basically adapted the 5e fighter with those abilities into a 3e framework. I'm not really a fan of the 5e fighter, it's an improvement on the fighter concept in general, but it seems pretty convoluted. In an ideal world, I would've reworked the fighter into a custom mish-mosh class borrowing heavily from the Tome of Battle, but that's also probably kind of confusing for someone relatively new to the game, and I didn't have the time anyway, so 5e fighter it is.



For 3e, I hear the Pathfinder (1e) version is a lot better in many ways. I've only played one Pathfinder campaign as a Rogue so I couldn't really comment, though the Spiked-Chain Figher in our group really liked it. So maybe when doing 3.5 just take the PF version over and it should work fairly well.

As for the 5e one, Im currently playing one in our Friday games. We're 7th level and I'm a Warlord Archetype (homebrewed to be more like the 4e one) and generally Im happy with the class. Because the player chooses the Archetype, there's a lot of customization in terms of play-style they can go with. The Eldritch Knight isn't bad as the weapon-spells in Sword Coast Adventure Guide allow for a Swordmage feeling (the spells are directly ported from 4e almost, lol) and the Battle Master does do a OK job of feeling like a 4e fighter with "powers". The Champion archetype, or otherwise known as the "classic" one, is decent at it's job and is really simple to play IF that's what you're going for.

I guess after 3.5 any Fighter versions going to look better.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9504 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2020 :  00:38:16  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the post on Eytan's Class Chronicles for Bo9S. I remember reading it years ago and loving the reference to Swords Pool.

I had NOT noticed the idea that a Raumathari Battlemage was also a Jade Phoenix (a group whose soul is reborn when they die into another mortal in order to keep "the souldrake" bound). Given the concept of Telthors and modern day Rashemen and presumably ancient Raumathar, perhaps this can be tied somehow. My first thoughts go to the draolich Xavarathimius called the "Everlasting Wyrm" who was bound by the witches of Rashemen to "guard Eltab" down in the Sharawood/Drakewood. To show where I'm going with this, Maybe there's a link between the "Souldrake" and the "Everlasting Wyrm" dracolich … which is a dracolich BEFORE the formation of the Cult of the Dragon. Maybe this dracolich can be linked back to Narfell (with their ties to Orcus and undeath), and perhaps the Jade Phoenix mage Turoth Krenth had originally been "reborn" into Raumathar because the universe foresaw the reemergence of a powerful telthor spirit of "the souldrake", and maybe Turoth Krenth helped bind it somewhere and later the wychlaran reanchor it in the Sharawood. Then along come the "Crusaders of Myrkul" who go on to become the "Knights of the Eternal Dragon"/"Knights of the Undying Dragon"... who maybe are also a group that develops knowledge from ToB as well as becoming undead guardians of this creature (maybe not all of them, but perhaps a small sect of them, noting there's 12 death knights on nightmares, 144 skeletal warriors and 1728 night riders on gaunts ).

The reason I bring all this up, it might be fun for someone to do a whole campaign around being a phoenix mage who is say born in Rashemen, develops himself in the Tiger Claw (or maybe locally known as Bear Fang or Griffin Talon) (only picking those two because they seem like it would fit the tone of the area). He goes on dajemma and picks up shadow hand in Thesk, desert wind in the hordelands, etc... Perhaps while abroad he's introduced to magic as a wizard or warmage. Maybe he meets and interacts with the warmages of Daarthos Koruuna (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070425), and maybe even Aoth Fezim of the brotherhood of the Griffon. He leaves them when they are attacked by minions of the Everlasting Wyrm, who realizes that the ancient Raumathari Battlemage's, Turoth Krenth, spirit has been reborn in the character. Maybe have the character have to find the bastard sword Hadryllis from the adventurers who used it against Tam, because maybe in order to renew the bindings on the Everlasting Wyrm the magical weapon must be used in the ritual. You could have Hadryllis (since its intelligent) remember that ancient Turoth Krenth from prior to Rashemen's founding and confusing the two of them (after all the sword doesn't "see" so by its senses, it may seem like the same being). Maybe the artifact that Daarthos Koruna group found is somehow related to the character's ancient past, and somehow he has to awaken it (and when he does, maybe these warmages decide to help him). As far as a build goes, 1 fighter/1 warblade/4 warmage/ and then a mix of eldritch knight and jade phoenix moving up. With this build, battlecaster would allow for medium armor. Another option might be going 3 wizard instead of warmage and being a lot more versatile and mixing in some spellsword (even just one level helps).

From the Class Chronicles article
Jade Phoenix Mage: In Kara-Tur, jade phoenix mages are relatively common, but they go by other names in the Western Realms. The Shou brought the tradition with them in travels to the West. While no major centers exist, a small number of students of the Raumathari Battlemagic and elven bladesinging traditions have studied jade phoenix magic. These practitioners still think of themselves as battlemages and bladesingers, but who incorporate learned elements from another culture into their studies. Reshar's constant companion, the Raumathari battlemage Turoth Krenth, was the main reason the warrior was able to travel throughout the Realms. Turoth used his magic to transport Reshar to the distant locales where he studied the unique disciplines. Turoth was an accomplished blade magician and wizard who is often forgotten in the legends of Reshar.
From Shining South
An extremely old and powerful dracolich known only as the Everlasting Wyrm inhabits the darkest, deepest part of the Sharawood, ruminating on its nefarious plots and slowly collecting a brood of minions. Though it keeps to itself and tries to remain unnoticed by the nomads of the plains, it does not hesitate to enslave any tribesfolk
who discover its existence. The dracolich’s worst enemies are the Knights of the Eternal Dragon, a group of undead stalwarts hidden away in the ruins of the Castle of Al’hanar, just south of the Sharawood. Once every century, the knights arise and charge into the woods to do battle with the dracolich and its horde of living spawn. Though the knights always destroy the dracolich and all its minions, this battle seems doomed to play out over and over until the end of time because true to its name, the Everlasting Wyrm simply reforms over a decade or two and begins its machinations again.


From Champions of Ruin
In the Year of the Bloody Goad (–105 DR), an Illuskan tribe known as the Rus arrived in eastern Faerūn via a malfunctioning portal that deposited them on the eastern shore of Lake Ashane. Although quickly integrated into the native Rashemi population, the Rus were powerful berserkers who sparked an insurrection among the native Rashemi against the court of Eltab. The arrival of the Rus coincided with the emergence of the Witches of Rashemen, a secret sisterhood formed in the dying days of Raumathar to preserve that empire’s magical lore.

In the Year of Leather Shields (–75 DR), an alliance of the Rashemi, the Rus, and the Raumviran witches finally liberated Rashemen from demonic rule. The hero of this conflict was a half-Rus/half-Rashemi warrior named Yvengi, who wielded a great magical blade named Hadryllis against Eltab, severely wounding the demon lord and forcing him to flee. The Witches of Rashemen finally caught up with Eltab in the Sharawood, far to the south in the Eastern Shaar. They imprisoned him beneath the forest floor
and bound a dracolich known only as the Everlasting Wyrm to be his guardian.

In the Year of the Adamantine Spiral (106 DR), crusaders of Myrkul from the Castle of Al’hanar attacked and (temporarily) destroyed the Everlasting Wyrm. While plundering the dracolich’s hoard, the followers of Myrkul discovered the imprisoned demon lord, and, in exchange for ninety-nine years of service to the Church of Myrkul, the crusaders agreed to release the demon lord from his binding. With Eltab’s aid, the followers of Myrkul seized control of the city of Shandaular in the Council Hills and
established the theocracy of Eltabranar, encompassing most of the Eastern Shaar. The crusaders of Myrkul might have learned from Eltab the ritual of voluntarily transforming themselves into death knights, a secret the demon had long ago stolen from Demogorgon, although church dogma holds (or at least held) that the Lord of the Dead granted them the “gift” in exchange for their eternal servitude.


In the Year of the Fanged Gauntlet (202 DR), Eltabranar undertook an ambitious and ill-fated invasion of southern Unther and Mulhorand prompted by Eltab, who coveted the might of the god-kings. Led by an incarnation of Anhur wielding the legendary Hadryllis, the clerics of the god-kings managed to defeat Eltab and imprison him in a demoncyst beneath far-off Thaymount. By the Year of the Greengrass (205 DR), Unther and Mulhorand had reclaimed all of their lost territory, and by the Year of the
Spoiled Splendors (211 DR), the inhabitants of Eltabranar had been forced to abandon their realm and flee south and west.[/i]

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9504 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2020 :  01:14:00  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
actually, thinking on the above, the storyline might work better if instead of being from Rashemen, he's a Rashemi blooded character in Thay, and a fervent worshipper of Kossuth. It could be swordsage, warblade, or crusader. But with the ties to Kossuth and the Jade Phoenix's ties to fire... having the Daarthos Koruna be some artifact of Kossuth would make sense, and maybe that's where the character might "awaken" to his past life. Maybe this artifact has ties to the Raumathari Battlemage of old (who possibly ALSO worshipped Kossuth, given that Raumathar was given to that).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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BrennonGoldeye
Learned Scribe

84 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2020 :  19:07:15  Show Profile Send BrennonGoldeye a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus


-I actually just started a game a few weeks ago, and since one of the players is relatively inexperienced and only knows 5e (whereas I only know 3e), we basically adapted the 5e fighter with those abilities into a 3e framework. I'm not really a fan of the 5e fighter, it's an improvement on the fighter concept in general, but it seems pretty convoluted. In an ideal world, I would've reworked the fighter into a custom mish-mosh class borrowing heavily from the Tome of Battle, but that's also probably kind of confusing for someone relatively new to the game, and I didn't have the time anyway, so 5e fighter it is.



Hey Old man, thought you retired from playing. :)

Sam
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3993 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2020 :  20:46:50  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

actually, thinking on the above, the storyline might work better if instead of being from Rashemen, he's a Rashemi blooded character in Thay, and a fervent worshipper of Kossuth. It could be swordsage, warblade, or crusader. But with the ties to Kossuth and the Jade Phoenix's ties to fire... having the Daarthos Koruna be some artifact of Kossuth would make sense, and maybe that's where the character might "awaken" to his past life. Maybe this artifact has ties to the Raumathari Battlemage of old (who possibly ALSO worshipped Kossuth, given that Raumathar was given to that).



Thats a really cool concept, tying things into Kossuth worship. Such an underrated deity. Funny enough, I stumbled across this Dragon magazine that had Fighters of different elements and they gave up a few bonus feats for elemental resistance, some spell-like whities, etc. It got me thinking of making a Crusader/Fighter of Kossuth with a flaming spiked chains and Divine maneuvers.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
350 Posts

Posted - 14 Apr 2020 :  03:14:58  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Bo9S core classes really spice up combat...no doubt about it. That said, I would not unilaterally replace paladin, monk and fighter with crusader, swordsage and warblade entirely. One problem I would address is what do all six core classes do outside combat? In particular, I want to focus on 3.5ed fighters.

Call me corny, but you who have ever watched the DC animated film "Emerald Knights", remember the flashback scenes of Kilowog training to become a Green Lantern. Among various ordeals, Sergeant Deegan has the recruits climb out of the ravine with the lava underneath. Remember how Kilowog saved the recruits and even let them climb over his body to get out the ravine.
Kilowog in those scenes exemplifies the thematic difference between a fighter and a warblade.

I am not saying fighters are better, just that fighters do the unglorious thankless gruntwork that keeps the team (ie, party) alive when other options are not available. The team may not always rely on the spellcasters, especially the wizard, to "magic away" all obstacles. I think Sergeant Deegan was trying to give the Green Lantern recruits that specific lesson not to rely on their power rings for everything. He really laid hard into Kilowog and motivated Kilowog to protect his teammates.

If you have not watched "Emerald Knights, please do so and pay particular attention to the flashback scene with Kilowog's training. My two copper pieces.

My Heartfelt Unapologetic Edit: My condolences to you if you ever had the misfortune of dealing with a player who insisted their wizard character must load up on combat spells, and combat spells only. My encouragement to those who want to play fighters, but wonder what they can do without either armor or weapons. May we bridge the Tier 1 to Tier 5 gap.

Edited by - Delnyn on 14 Apr 2020 03:24:14
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3407 Posts

Posted - 14 Apr 2020 :  17:25:18  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

Even with just feats, a 3.5 Fighter could get complicated with the bonuses they got, which modifiers go with which attacks, full-attack vs. Standard Action, situational modifiers from allies spells etc. Also, there was always the Warrior class that's just fighter without Bonus Feats. I have, as a sort of odd fascination, wanted to do a high level Fighter (no ToB) but with as many feats as I could include to see how good it was in a game and to see how over-shadowed it would get.

-That is true, but I meant it more like "You're a Fighter. You hit things with a weapon. The end." Someone I know, he's smart- he's a doctor in charge of an entire department- but when he played D&D it was more just to hang out with his friends and whatever else. He knew the rules but just like the basics. He always played spellcasters, and was very...ineffective, let's just say. Wasn't really familiar with most spells, was only really familiar with the basic rules...I always wondered why he never just played a Fighter, much more straightforward of a class.

quote:
Originally posted by BrennonGoldeye

Hey Old man, thought you retired from playing. :)


-When you're quarantined and can't go to work and can only play so many video games or watch so much TV, you gotta spice things up.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 14 Apr 2020 17:26:31
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3993 Posts

Posted - 14 Apr 2020 :  19:17:44  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

The Bo9S core classes really spice up combat...no doubt about it. That said, I would not unilaterally replace paladin, monk and fighter with crusader, swordsage and warblade entirely. One problem I would address is what do all six core classes do outside combat? In particular, I want to focus on 3.5ed fighters.

Call me corny, but you who have ever watched the DC animated film "Emerald Knights", remember the flashback scenes of Kilowog training to become a Green Lantern. Among various ordeals, Sergeant Deegan has the recruits climb out of the ravine with the lava underneath. Remember how Kilowog saved the recruits and even let them climb over his body to get out the ravine.
Kilowog in those scenes exemplifies the thematic difference between a fighter and a warblade.

I am not saying fighters are better, just that fighters do the unglorious thankless gruntwork that keeps the team (ie, party) alive when other options are not available. The team may not always rely on the spellcasters, especially the wizard, to "magic away" all obstacles. I think Sergeant Deegan was trying to give the Green Lantern recruits that specific lesson not to rely on their power rings for everything. He really laid hard into Kilowog and motivated Kilowog to protect his teammates.


I get what your saying. What I'm confused by is why this scene can't be accomplished by really any class that's strong? Certainly a Paladin or Crusader (noble sacrifices being their sort of shtick) wouldn't also do this for their team? What they do out of combat is generally determined by the individual player and possibly things like Skills or some other mechanical concept. And because we're talking about the ToB, I think these guys have a better way of handling out-of-combat scenarios, simply by having 4+Int modifier skills per level so they can put a few into things like Profession or Craft. Or because their class features do more heavy lifting, frees up a few feats for fun and non-combat things.

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

If you have not watched "Emerald Knights, please do so and pay particular attention to the flashback scene with Kilowog's training. My two copper pieces.


I'll have to check it out. I haven't tuned into much DC animation but I hear it's got a lot more going for it than the Marvel stuff.

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

My Heartfelt Unapologetic Edit: My condolences to you if you ever had the misfortune of dealing with a player who insisted their wizard character must load up on combat spells, and combat spells only. My encouragement to those who want to play fighters, but wonder what they can do without either armor or weapons. May we bridge the Tier 1 to Tier 5 gap.



Eh, most of the spellcasters I play with using 3.5 knew how to game the system and that HP damage past a certain level was the least of the things they could do. Why use Fireball when you can use Prismatic Sphere then Reverse Gravity the area and watch the monsters float up into the pretty colored dome and go *poof*. Heck I made a Gray Elf Wizard worship Pelor then go into the War Weaver prestige class. He as weaving strands of magic to cast spells like Bull's Strength, Greater Invisibility, Haste, and Polymorph to all go off at once. Because the character followed Pelor, he took the Arcane Disciple feat and got Healing spells to throw into the Weave, thus by 9th level I was getting mass cure moderate wounds 1/day.

Crap is broken, lol.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9504 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2020 :  22:16:29  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

actually, thinking on the above, the storyline might work better if instead of being from Rashemen, he's a Rashemi blooded character in Thay, and a fervent worshipper of Kossuth. It could be swordsage, warblade, or crusader. But with the ties to Kossuth and the Jade Phoenix's ties to fire... having the Daarthos Koruna be some artifact of Kossuth would make sense, and maybe that's where the character might "awaken" to his past life. Maybe this artifact has ties to the Raumathari Battlemage of old (who possibly ALSO worshipped Kossuth, given that Raumathar was given to that).



Thats a really cool concept, tying things into Kossuth worship. Such an underrated deity. Funny enough, I stumbled across this Dragon magazine that had Fighters of different elements and they gave up a few bonus feats for elemental resistance, some spell-like whities, etc. It got me thinking of making a Crusader/Fighter of Kossuth with a flaming spiked chains and Divine maneuvers.



Yeah, the more I think on that, I think it would be a really fun character story wise to play. It could really draw you all around the unapproachable east, bloodstone lands, and old empires areas. Having flaming spiked chains, or combining something like a flaming whip and a one handed weapon (ebon lashes were fairly common in Thay, and the Rashemi witches also created whips). I'd obviously go the path of the spellcaster/fighter, but then that's me. A Jade Phoenix wizard who maybe has to seek out a real phoenix for some reason.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3993 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2020 :  16:16:50  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

actually, thinking on the above, the storyline might work better if instead of being from Rashemen, he's a Rashemi blooded character in Thay, and a fervent worshipper of Kossuth. It could be swordsage, warblade, or crusader. But with the ties to Kossuth and the Jade Phoenix's ties to fire... having the Daarthos Koruna be some artifact of Kossuth would make sense, and maybe that's where the character might "awaken" to his past life. Maybe this artifact has ties to the Raumathari Battlemage of old (who possibly ALSO worshipped Kossuth, given that Raumathar was given to that).



Thats a really cool concept, tying things into Kossuth worship. Such an underrated deity. Funny enough, I stumbled across this Dragon magazine that had Fighters of different elements and they gave up a few bonus feats for elemental resistance, some spell-like abilities, etc. It got me thinking of making a Crusader/Fighter of Kossuth with a flaming spiked chains and Divine maneuvers.



Yeah, the more I think on that, I think it would be a really fun character story wise to play. It could really draw you all around the unapproachable east, bloodstone lands, and old empires areas. Having flaming spiked chains, or combining something like a flaming whip and a one handed weapon (ebon lashes were fairly common in Thay, and the Rashemi witches also created whips). I'd obviously go the path of the spellcaster/fighter, but then that's me. A Jade Phoenix wizard who maybe has to seek out a real phoenix for some reason.



That would be an awesome campaign. I've never adventured in Thay before and after my group finally finishes the Anauroch: Empire of Shade adventure (they're so close!!!) They're actually going to Rasheman. I have this high-level campaign set where the Durthan are attempting their coup and have been pushing all the Wychlaran / Old One supports further towards the ends of their boarders. Their forces are being led by a mysterious Warrior that has defeated numerious Berserker lodges and is currently nearing the capital of Immilmar.

In reality, the mysterious warrior is none other than Warduke and he's being led by the leader of the Durthan, Chual (residing in Citadel Rashemar) an Annis Hag sorceress. Her conquest has placed a number of Berserker Lodges under her banner as they see the might and power behind both her magicks and Warduke's ferocious fighting and tactics.

So the PCs will have to help reinforced Immilmar when they eventually get the Rasheman and then ferret out the location of Chual and confront her.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 21 Apr 2020 :  22:16:39  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Warduke? As in the old D&D cartoon bad guy? Neat. Well, if you DO do that campaign... consider having it be that the Durthans were involved with binding the Everlasting Wyrm and not just the wychlaran (or rather there was no split yet). The Durthans are all about cold. Maybe the Wychlaran tell them they must find the "Telthor of the Reborn Phoenix" to help them against the dragon. They maybe have to find the Jade Phoenix mage (maybe a Crusader warmage or Crusader Wizard) and help him achieve his end goals. Maybe the artifact that is the Daarthos Koruna is an artifact of Kossuth that actually is an egg of a Phoenix that has been stopped from hatching. Maybe they have to bring the Daarthos Koruna (i.e. phoenix egg) to Amruthar in Thay and touch it to the artifact which seems to have ties to Kossuth beneath that city. Of course, the red wizards protect this artifact and don't just let anyone go walking up to it.

This could give you a chance to play with the NPC itself without a player having to dream up all of this (or you presenting it and them not getting it). You could then play with the rules like you're wanting to do. In the end, you have the phoenix taking on this ultra-powerful dracolich, while the players take on the durthans and warduke.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Diffan
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Posted - 22 Apr 2020 :  00:35:30  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Warduke? As in the old D&D cartoon bad guy? Neat.


Aye, one and the same. He was given stats for 3.5 in Dungeon magazine #105 as an 18th level Human Fighter. He's a Challenge Rating of 20, due to the items he has and the Grafts placed on him. His Strength is 32 and has all the Fighter feats in 3.5 PHB it seems, lol.

Will he be a challenge for my PCs? Possible, though they've been running rough-shod through most of the monsters in the Anauroch adventure so far. So I'm curious to see how they'll fare.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Well, if you DO do that campaign... consider having it be that the Durthans were involved with binding the Everlasting Wyrm and not just the wychlaran (or rather there was no split yet). The Durthans are all about cold. Maybe the Wychlaran tell them they must find the "Telthor of the Reborn Phoenix" to help them against the dragon. They maybe have to find the Jade Phoenix mage (maybe a Crusader warmage or Crusader Wizard) and help him achieve his end goals. Maybe the artifact that is the Daarthos Koruna is an artifact of Kossuth that actually is an egg of a Phoenix that has been stopped from hatching. Maybe they have to bring the Daarthos Koruna (i.e. phoenix egg) to Amruthar in Thay and touch it to the artifact which seems to have ties to Kossuth beneath that city. Of course, the red wizards protect this artifact and don't just let anyone go walking up to it.

This could give you a chance to play with the NPC itself without a player having to dream up all of this (or you presenting it and them not getting it). You could then play with the rules like you're wanting to do. In the end, you have the phoenix taking on this ultra-powerful dracolich, while the players take on the durthans and warduke.



That's an awesome idea! That way I can also incorporate Thay in there and have an adventure set in and around the Unapproachable East!

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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sleyvas
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Posted - 22 Apr 2020 :  02:46:45  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Warduke? As in the old D&D cartoon bad guy? Neat.


Aye, one and the same. He was given stats for 3.5 in Dungeon magazine #105 as an 18th level Human Fighter. He's a Challenge Rating of 20, due to the items he has and the Grafts placed on him. His Strength is 32 and has all the Fighter feats in 3.5 PHB it seems, lol.

Will he be a challenge for my PCs? Possible, though they've been running rough-shod through most of the monsters in the Anauroch adventure so far. So I'm curious to see how they'll fare.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Well, if you DO do that campaign... consider having it be that the Durthans were involved with binding the Everlasting Wyrm and not just the wychlaran (or rather there was no split yet). The Durthans are all about cold. Maybe the Wychlaran tell them they must find the "Telthor of the Reborn Phoenix" to help them against the dragon. They maybe have to find the Jade Phoenix mage (maybe a Crusader warmage or Crusader Wizard) and help him achieve his end goals. Maybe the artifact that is the Daarthos Koruna is an artifact of Kossuth that actually is an egg of a Phoenix that has been stopped from hatching. Maybe they have to bring the Daarthos Koruna (i.e. phoenix egg) to Amruthar in Thay and touch it to the artifact which seems to have ties to Kossuth beneath that city. Of course, the red wizards protect this artifact and don't just let anyone go walking up to it.

This could give you a chance to play with the NPC itself without a player having to dream up all of this (or you presenting it and them not getting it). You could then play with the rules like you're wanting to do. In the end, you have the phoenix taking on this ultra-powerful dracolich, while the players take on the durthans and warduke.



That's an awesome idea! That way I can also incorporate Thay in there and have an adventure set in and around the Unapproachable East!



Glad to help. That being said, if you DO do that storyline, make sure that the Jade Phoenix NPC has to help the phoenix against the dracolich. Let that be something going on in the background with the NPC without distracting from the accomplishments of the PC. BTW, not sure why I'm fixated on this, but having Warduke with a powerful version of a frostbrand weapon made by the Durthans comes to mind. Maybe having a priestess of Auril that's in love with him to help him (casting protections, casting heals, etc..)

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Delnyn
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Posted - 22 Apr 2020 :  04:25:57  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As a side adventure, have the party retrieve the golden hammer and return it to Strongheart the paladin. Maybe he can give the party the intel on Warduke.
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Diffan
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Posted - 22 Apr 2020 :  15:47:02  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

As a side adventure, have the party retrieve the golden hammer and return it to Strongheart the paladin. Maybe he can give the party the intel on Warduke.



Ohhh man....that's an idea! I thought Strong heart wielded a magical intelligent longsword though? Or was retrieving his hammer a part of the Episode of D&D he was in?

Otherwise, I absolutely might include that.

EDIT: on a side note - how would you stat Strongheart? Human Paladin 18? Maybe with a strong devotion to the Fists of Valor knighthood!

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Edited by - Diffan on 22 Apr 2020 21:11:58
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Diffan
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Posted - 22 Apr 2020 :  16:09:54  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Glad to help. That being said, if you DO do that storyline, make sure that the Jade Phoenix NPC has to help the phoenix against the dracolich. Let that be something going on in the background with the NPC without distracting from the accomplishments of the PC. BTW, not sure why I'm fixated on this, but having Warduke with a powerful version of a frostbrand weapon made by the Durthans comes to mind. Maybe having a priestess of Auril that's in love with him to help him (casting protections, casting heals, etc..)



Well his Longsword in the show freezes Dungeon Master to a tree, so there is already a penchant for that. His 3.5 stats have him wielding a +3 human bane flaming burst bastard sword but to keep it more thematic to the show AND the setting of Rasheman, cold works better.

Also Chaul is followed by a Half-orc cleric of Luthic and she has multiple cold spells prepared including Ice Axe. So there's a good possibility that the two (Warduke and Durakh) are a thing....

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Diffan
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Posted - 22 Apr 2020 :  16:52:43  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So basically the new Jade Phoenix Mage is the old spirit of Turoth and he's needed again as the Souldrake (which we know is Xavarathimius aka the Everlasting Wyurm) is possibly close to escaping due to the actions of both the Durthan Chaul and with help of the Knights of the Eternal Dragon.

The sword Hadryllis is needed to stop the Everlasting Wyurm with a ritual the Jade Phoenix needs to complete in order to restore the bindings on the Souldrake.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 22 Apr 2020 :  17:35:56  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

So basically the new Jade Phoenix Mage is the old spirit of Turoth and he's needed again as the Souldrake (which we know is Xavarathimius aka the Everlasting Wyurm) is possibly close to escaping due to the actions of both the Durthan Chaul and with help of the Knights of the Eternal Dragon.

The sword Hadryllis is needed to stop the Everlasting Wyurm with a ritual the Jade Phoenix needs to complete in order to restore the bindings on the Souldrake.



Yes! I forgot the part on possibly tying in Hadryllis, but yeah, that definitely works. So, maybe they have to awaken "the Phoenix" in Amruthar and then escort the Phoenix and the Jade Phoenix character to the Sharawood to renew the bindings... possibly with the help of the Crusaders of Myrkul? But then as that is happening, the party has to leave this scene behind and transport themselves to Immilmar to stop the Durthans and Warduke. Maybe even the Durthans and Warduke have been hiding out in the ruins of Shandaular in the Council Hills area of the Shaar and using the ancient portal link between there and Ashanath.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Diffan
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Posted - 22 Apr 2020 :  18:05:20  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

possibly with the help of the Crusaders of Myrkul?



I'm not sure why the Crusaders of Myrkul would help keep a Dracolich bound? Wouldn't they want to release the Souldrake (thus weakening the binds on Eltab?)

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sleyvas
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Posted - 23 Apr 2020 :  00:13:39  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

possibly with the help of the Crusaders of Myrkul?



I'm not sure why the Crusaders of Myrkul would help keep a Dracolich bound? Wouldn't they want to release the Souldrake (thus weakening the binds on Eltab?)



I admit I struggle with the same. However, canonically they DO go in and fight the dragon and kill it every century. Since Myrkul was NE, I picture these crusaders as LE. Thus, maybe they have a code of honor and maybe there is some reason why they need it bound. As to Eltab, one thing to recall is that they just happened across him the first time. They then "lured" him into servitude and ended up his servants instead. They then were led on an ill-advised raid of Mulhorand. I'm not actually picturing a lot of love lost in that relationship at the end. They may have followed him out of fear.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Diffan
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Posted - 23 Apr 2020 :  01:32:29  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I admit I struggle with the same. However, canonically they DO go in and fight the dragon and kill it every century. Since Myrkul was NE, I picture these crusaders as LE. Thus, maybe they have a code of honor and maybe there is some reason why they need it bound. As to Eltab, one thing to recall is that they just happened across him the first time. They then "lured" him into servitude and ended up his servants instead. They then were led on an ill-advised raid of Mulhorand. I'm not actually picturing a lot of love lost in that relationship at the end. They may have followed him out of fear.



Yeah, and it was Thay that attempted to bind Eltab to Thakorsil's Seat and that would've been bad for everyone. So now with that botched affair in 1373 DR, Eltab is once again locked under the Citadel of Conjurers (in Impiltur?) and maybe they need the Jade Phoenix NPC to re-bind the Everlasting Wyrm/Souldrake/Xavarathimius to keep watch over Eltab once again.

So the premise of the adventure is sort of two-fold. One, you have the Durthan annis hag sorceress Chaul organizing Telthors (spirit-creatures), the other Durthan, and armies amassed by Warduke on a grand crusade though Rasheman.

Then there's the second part of re-sealing the Souldrake via the sword Hadryllis in Impiltur's Citadel of Conjurers to make sure Eltab is firmly secured in his prison. The Crusaders of Myrkul are willing to help in this task to ensure Eltab doesn't escape and because it's a ritual as old as their organization - Maybe Xavarathimius somehow spurned or brought upon the wrath of Myrkul in some vendetta or power grab and his knights set out to put him down as a memory to never cross Myrkul?

So now I need to figure out how to connect the two? I can have the NPC Jade Phoenix (I was thinking of making him Male half-Mulan/half-Rashemi human Crusader 1 (Kossuth)/ Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 6/ Jade Phoenix Mage 10) decide to take the journey and seal away the Souldrake once again but his lands in trouble and needs to break the Durthan's lines before he can leave?

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