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scererar
Master of Realmslore

USA
1618 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2006 :  20:13:48  Show Profile Send scererar a Private Message
Ed has made a reply about the best swordsmen in the realms in a reply earlier this year. I would bet money, one of our sages here would be able to point us in the direction of that particualr scroll. The answers would not be anything close to what you would suspect them to be
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe

688 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2006 :  21:20:12  Show Profile  Visit Wandering_mage's Homepage Send Wandering_mage a Private Message
Fflar, Josidiah Starym, Zaknafien, Florin (KoMD), Entreri, Drizzt, Storm, Dove, Ryld, Valas Hune, Azoun, and Pwent. Although I think I was sold best on the representation of Storm, Zaknafien, Drizzt, Entreri, Fflar, the Rangers Three, and lastly I like wizards so my opinion looks to be similar to a lot of posters actually. :)

Illum
The Wandering Mage
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2006 :  21:35:19  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
Quote Ed, from around January of this year:

quote:
Well, now. “Swordsmen” you say, so I’m going to narrow my reply down to: male living (not dead or undead) humans.
I’m going to further qualify my reply by saying that among the most skilled masters of bladework, “best” becomes a matter of opinion regarding style, and the average observer can’t identify (let alone properly interpret) most subtle differences because they’re either dead too quickly, or too dazzled by things that happen too swiftly for them to see properly and too deftly for them to measure or grasp the implications of (matters of shifting a foe just a little off balance, or forcing a movement in stance or location, that will lead to a killing stroke three or four maneuvers later).
Moreover, “best” is a steadily shifting title, even when one sets aside divine and magical meddling, because (as with real-world tennis) youthful speed and acrobatic suppleness, plus freedom from injuries and the slowing and crippling effects of aging (on, say, the human knee), must always be balanced against the experience gained in duel after duel after battle: young swordsmen are always rising to the fore, but only step into the ranks of the “best” when those more expert through real-life practice grow too slow to defeat the most skilled younglings (or the younglings overcome their inexperience).
I’m also going to restrict myself purely to matters of bladework, in a one-on-one fight in surroundings that favour neither combatant. In other words, I’m minimizing “street smarts” or dirty fighting or the adventurers’ experience in exploiting traction, lighting, obstacles, distractions, and all of that: factors that seasoned adventurers (like Durnan of Waterdeep) can use to defeat foes who might be a shade faster or a whit better in pure bladework. This will work against Artemis Entreri, for example, but also against a host of other adventurers whom I won’t even mention in this reply, but who might otherwise show up in my answer.
(Personally, I’d rather not do any “best of” rankings, because I think they’re subjective, snapshots of moments in time that are dated even as they’re made, and a bit pointless. Even in pure-skill tournaments, upsets occur, and if a DM wants to create an unknown who’s better than the individuals mentioned here, go right ahead.)
However, I probably possess the best overview of the entire tapestry of the Realms of anyone (though not all that far ahead of, say, Messrs. Boyd and Krashos, closely followed by Schend, Hunter, and Grubb), and can speak from that strength - - not being limited, for instance, by published Realmslore.
So you’re really going to have to trust me here, when I say that the best bladesman in the Realms right now (1375 DR) is: Harmel Artru, a darkly handsome, agile, glib-tongued and lady-charming merchant seacaptain (and sometime pirate), who sails The Winsome Lady independent caravel out of Saerloon (and a secret base somewhere in the Pirate Isles).
Only a whisker-width behind Artru is Loaros Hammarandar, a broad-shouldered, grim giant of a man who can hurl his prodigious strength and bulk around like an acrobat, and is an ever-wary-of-treachery mercenary warmaster currently under hire by Narubel, who commands “the Swift Sword” cavalry force used to quell bandits and unrest in that city and its surrounding farms (and dedicates himself to quietly eliminating all threats to the current rulership, prosperity, and status quo in Narubel).
Close behind Artru and Hammarandar are Skoalam Marlgrask and then Sraece Telthorn.
Skoalam Marlgrask is a professional duelist who travels Chessenta as the champion of whomever sponsors him in duels, making huge sums (because everyone locally knows he’s “the best” in duels, and so tries to outbid opponents seeking to hire his services) that are usually paid in gems and used by Marlgrask to immediately buy property, notably an ever-expanding string of inns and taverns. Marlgrask is polite, saturnine, nondescript of looks but quietly luxurious of dress, and seems able to sense danger (crossbow snipers, for instance) before it can reach out for him. He’s known to be resistant to many natural poisons (having learned this the hard way), but now takes great care regarding what he eats and drinks (hence his purchase of many inns and taverns).
Sraece Telthorn is a smallish, agile, almost feminine man who can dance, tumble, balance, and spring with a skill and precision matched only by the greatest acrobats (once leaping off a parapet to land perfectly balanced on a sloping, protruding flagstaff far below, for instance, and often springing over the slashing swords of opponents). He teaches “swordplay” (fencing) in Yhaunn and Waterdeep, and is believed to travel between the two by means of secret portals of unknown origin and location. Telthorn lives simply, is unambitious (avoiding power and important patrons, and giving much of his coins away), and is beloved by many pleasure-lasses of Waterdeep, who regard him as a kind friend or honorary brother as well as a frequent client.
I’d put the infamous Artemis Entreri after Telthorn, though I could be persuaded to rank two other male human bladesmen between them: Ulmaer Rivrymm of Sheirtalar (a smiling, wax-mustached man of good nature but lightning-swift reflexes and keen sight, who is personal bodyguard to the Overking of Lapaliiya, and can juggle scimitars to entertain), and Aka ‘the Questmaster’ (the mysterious sponsor and trainer of adventurers) who dwells, these days, in the wilderlands of the Sword Coast North.
If I widen my reply to include human females, two must be inserted: Ember Tsartaera between Hammarandar and Marlgrask, and Lyaunthra Aldegal between Marlgrask and Telthorn.
Ember Tsartaera is the tall, cool of manner and sparing of words Knight of Arms (weaponsmaster, or trainer of bodyguards and soldiers) to Lord Albin, ruler of Furthinghome in Aglarond, where she dwells. Ember dresses plainly, lives in spartan surroundings, and is always under iron self-control, keeping to herself and crafting masterwork swords when she’s not practising using them or training others to do so; she never raises her voice (though she can be coldly, cuttingly firm), is always alert and anticipating trouble, and has an acrobatic fighting style; she’s famous in Furthinghome for catching hurled daggers and arrows in flight.
Lyaunthra Aldegal has recently settled in Waterdeep, though she still retains homes in her three previous bases: Silverymoon, Neverwinter, and Secomber. “The Lioness” is a superb maker of bladed weapons and tools (who learned her skills from her now-dead parents), who can resharpen and balance almost any fragment of a mistreated item. She owns and travels between small weapon shops in Waterdeep, Silverymoon, Neverwinter, and Secomber, and specializes in finding just the right weapon for a client, and in weapons-training and -practising with select clients. Known to have ironguard protection afforded by a wearable item (a choker or anklet, most believe), she’s also known to be able to withstand great pain, once (in the days before her ironguard protection) slaying a killer who’d put his blade through her hilt-deep, and then (despite being hit by both acid and fire magics) staggering through four rooms to get healing potions, managing to drink them and pluck forth his blade without passing out. Aldegal is a fire-haired, rugged-looking woman who takes numerous lovers, arrives and departs quietly and unexpectedly, and is seldom to be found where one expects to find her.
Quite a roster.
If I now widen my reply further, to include elves, half-elves, dwarves, halflings, and gnomes (note that I’m still excluding shapechanging races and multi-armed intelligent “monsters”), I’d put Maethrammar Aerasume between Artru and Hammarandar, and Drizzt Do’Urden JUST behind Marlgrask.
However, ask me this a year from now (Realms time), and - - even if there haven’t been fatalities - - these rankings may have shifted around quite a bit. As I said, among individuals of this skill, determinations are whisker-thin.



So saith Ed. Whew. Warned you, didn’t I? What Ed and all of we original players share when reading or listening to debates about “bests” and most this or that of the Realms is that there’s so much as-yet-unpublished Realmslore about this everchanging world that Ed crafted and continues to detail and expand, right alongside other writers (so the argument that “well, we can’t go by Ed’s original, we can only discuss the published Realms, that’s diverged so much from his original” goes right out the window). I happen to agree with Ed that rating “best” bladesmen is a bit pointless because it’s so subjective, changes so fast, and has such little practical roleplaying value - - but I fully understand Feanor’s curiosity in wanting to know. It’s a longing to know and understand the Realms more fully that we all share.
And I hope we will always continue to do so!
love to all,
THO

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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe

688 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2006 :  13:53:44  Show Profile  Visit Wandering_mage's Homepage Send Wandering_mage a Private Message
That little thread did come to mind when I was replying Wooly. Don't you love how colorful the Realms is? I mean there is never a clear answer to any of these "who is the most powerful" questions really. But being heard opinion wise can be fun. You also learn about various characters in the Realms you might not have heard of before. Like this Shuruppak fella. I didn't even know he existed.

Illum
The Wandering Mage
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Entreri1000
Acolyte

Canada
26 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2006 :  17:24:02  Show Profile  Visit Entreri1000's Homepage Send Entreri1000 a Private Message
Drizzt and Entreri in his prime. Drizzt was winning/outpacing a Marilith. Mariliths have 7 attacks per ROUND!

While somebody like Shuurpuck (sp?) would win over Drizzt or Entreri, it wont be because of him being better with the sword. It would be due to higher hit points, stamina, strength, regeneration, spells, being Chosen etc.

Riven (2nd Chosen of Mask) is better with the sword than Cale (first Chosen of Mask). But Cale is more powerful.

Entreri is slightly better than Riven. Entreri may beat him in a straight out fight. Entreri could never beat Cale, unless Cale only uses his sword (no spells enchaments etc).
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe

USA
947 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2006 :  17:58:56  Show Profile  Visit MerrikCale's Homepage Send MerrikCale a Private Message
A riven entreri match would be interesting.



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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1072 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2006 :  18:29:30  Show Profile  Visit Victor_ograygor's Homepage Send Victor_ograygor a Private Message
Most Powerful Warrior in the Realms is Duke Eltan, in forgotten realms in 2nd ed. (i think)
Cant find his stads i 3.5 ??

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Entreri1000
Acolyte

Canada
26 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2006 :  19:42:53  Show Profile  Visit Entreri1000's Homepage Send Entreri1000 a Private Message
Yep. Entreri vs Riven would be very interesting. I give the slight edge to Entreri. Entreri is 45+ years old now...If it was Entreri in his prime, Entreri would win.

Drizzt is amazing, especially in his Hunter Mode.
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2006 :  20:26:06  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor

Most Powerful Warrior in the Realms is Duke Eltan, in forgotten realms in 2nd ed. (i think)
Cant find his stads i 3.5 ??



He has some short stats in the FRCS, so I don't think they would have changed much in 3.5e. :)

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Haman
Seeker

USA
60 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2006 :  22:47:44  Show Profile  Visit Haman's Homepage Send Haman a Private Message
THO:
quote:
I happen to agree with Ed that rating “best” bladesmen is a bit pointless because it’s so subjective, changes so fast, and has such little practical roleplaying value


I whole heartedly agree with that quote.

(But if I had to be pinned down, I'd say Conner Macleod.)

Some people say we gamers have no lives....I think we have too many.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2006 :  02:06:22  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Haman

THO:
quote:
I happen to agree with Ed that rating “best” bladesmen is a bit pointless because it’s so subjective, changes so fast, and has such little practical roleplaying value

And I'll say again, that this is exactly right.

The fact remains, the "best" characters of any class are transitory positions. They represent the most popular characters of the day, and change whenever a new tale comes along about the exploits of another mysterious and powerful character of a particular class.

In other words, whose considered the "best" bladesman of the Realms today, likely won't be the considered the same when the next FR story comes along featuring a master fighter whose control of the sword knows no equal.

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Edited by - The Sage on 22 Oct 2006 02:09:28
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Lord Teclis
Acolyte

United Kingdom
24 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2006 :  09:55:20  Show Profile  Visit Lord Teclis's Homepage Send Lord Teclis a Private Message
There is one character that we have all forgotten. Grandmaster Kane. He is awesome, I have just finished the Road to the Patriach


SPOILER SPOILER

He takes out Entreri very easily, who in turns takes out Olwen who is a Mid 20's Ranger if I remember. On that fact alone and on a very potent Quivering Palm he has to be the most powerful warrior of the realms.
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Haman
Seeker

USA
60 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2006 :  10:41:38  Show Profile  Visit Haman's Homepage Send Haman a Private Message
Ouch!! Me brain read spoilers before I comprehended "spoilers"...crud.

I'd chastise ya, but I'm sure someone else will get to ya.

Some people say we gamers have no lives....I think we have too many.
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Entreri1000
Acolyte

Canada
26 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2006 :  14:19:58  Show Profile  Visit Entreri1000's Homepage Send Entreri1000 a Private Message
That is a bit surprising, about Entreri in the spoiler.

But you have to keep in mind that Entreri has aged and is a bit slower than before.

But taking out mid 20 level characters...Zakanafein (24 level fighter) said Drizzt will become better than him.



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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader

Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2006 :  14:50:07  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message
I say this and then I get out of all the "Who is the best..." discussions.

Novel and game do not work in the same way. From a storyteller's perspective Drizzt, of course, had to win against a demon, and another demon, because it is his story. If you take the same character, give him stats, and let him go one on one against aD&D monster or even a higher level character (like Zak) it will be a different outcome. Same goes for casters, thieves, whathaveyous.

Azoun IV was a level 20 cavalier in 1st edition, in a regular fight this guy would have been almost unstoppable, Drizzt was, again in 1st, edition considerably lower in level, at least a couple million xp difference. Who would've been better?
In game or in a novel, I'd ask. In game Azoun would've wiped the floor with Drizzt because he had the advantage, levelwise etc.
In a novel it would've depended on who wrote the thing, and whether the writer had the courtesy to ask the creator of said characters in such a way.

So all in all, 'tis pointless... 'nuff said

Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware!
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Entreri1000
Acolyte

Canada
26 Posts

Posted - 25 Oct 2006 :  15:35:03  Show Profile  Visit Entreri1000's Homepage Send Entreri1000 a Private Message
Assuming they are the same skill level, the character who has better other abilities and weapons/armor would win.
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Neonai
Acolyte

Turkey
34 Posts

Posted - 25 Oct 2006 :  15:43:58  Show Profile  Visit Neonai's Homepage Send Neonai a Private Message
I saw Shuurpuck's stats and level. he is too powerful and too dangerous. as far as ý know he should be the strongest.

and also about entreri s losing his speed, ý heard that his is a half shade now and will not age for a long time, thanks to his dagger.
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Entreri1000
Acolyte

Canada
26 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2006 :  23:55:01  Show Profile  Visit Entreri1000's Homepage Send Entreri1000 a Private Message
"and also about entreri s losing his speed, ý heard that his is a half shade now and will not age for a long time, thanks to his dagger."

He was already in his 40s before this happened. He already lost a step.
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Neonai
Acolyte

Turkey
34 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2006 :  00:02:36  Show Profile  Visit Neonai's Homepage Send Neonai a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Entreri1000

"and also about entreri s losing his speed, ý heard that his is a half shade now and will not age for a long time, thanks to his dagger."

He was already in his 40s before this happened. He already lost a step.



wouldn' t he regain his youth, after the transformation? or shall ý say wouldn' t he be a half shade of 40 from then rather than the equavalent of human 40 to shade's?

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Entreri1000
Acolyte

Canada
26 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2006 :  00:04:48  Show Profile  Visit Entreri1000's Homepage Send Entreri1000 a Private Message
"wouldn' t he regain his youth, after the transformation? or shall ý say wouldn' t he be a half shade of 40 from then rather than the equavalent of human 40 to shade's?"

He should have slowed aging, but he did not regain his youth. In the earlier novels he thought he can defeat any fighter, later thought only Drizzt his equal. Now that he has lost a step, he thinks he can defeat "almost any" fighter....
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2006 :  21:05:24  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Teclis
On that fact alone and on a very potent Quivering Palm [Master Kane] has to be the most powerful warrior of the realms.



I doubt he could take out my little elven monk--she may be tiny, but she's tough. Not that they'd have a reason to (lethally) fight each other, at any rate...

Anyway, I have to echo Mace Hammerhand--I think measuring character power via biased novels is likely to be a fruitless effort.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
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Entreri1000
Acolyte

Canada
26 Posts

Posted - 01 Nov 2006 :  13:56:32  Show Profile  Visit Entreri1000's Homepage Send Entreri1000 a Private Message
After reading the latest book: Kane is by far the best.
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader

Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 01 Nov 2006 :  15:02:31  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

Anyway, I have to echo Mace Hammerhand--I think measuring character power via biased novels is likely to be a fruitless effort.



I'm echoed...hoodyhoo

Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware!
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Twilight
Seeker

Canada
68 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2006 :  08:01:17  Show Profile  Visit Twilight's Homepage Send Twilight a Private Message
Jarlaxle
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Forgotten Ghost
Acolyte

Australia
36 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2006 :  09:19:24  Show Profile  Visit Forgotten Ghost's Homepage Send Forgotten Ghost a Private Message
Just to add my two cents i love this topic...BUT just a bit of annoyance at Ed's answer popping up (again). The characters he mentions (Skoalam Marlgrask, Ulmaer Rivrym and others) there is little to no published info on them so it is somewhat difficult to dispute or argue against for anyone else. Granted he would know more but his answer is a discusion killer, the point to me of topics like this IS meaningless opinion expresion and debate Ed's answer kills that. If there are further info on any of Ed's mentioned chars could someone direct those of us who have never heard of them before.

Also I would have to say a few names who rank amongst the best would be Drizzt, Artemis, Zaknafein (and other Drow weapon masters), the High Blade of Mulmaster, Shurupak, Fflar and some of the others mentioned here.

Though I absolutely must dispute Pwent, he is reckless, stupid, unusual and upredictable (his mental state is also questionable) all of which make him very dangerous...but he is not skillful or powerful in conventional terms he doesn't dersve to be part of this discussion. Oh and he smells bad Hygiene is an automatic disqualifier to me anyway.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2006 :  21:53:28  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Forgotten Ghost

Just to add my two cents i love this topic...BUT just a bit of annoyance at Ed's answer popping up (again). The characters he mentions (Skoalam Marlgrask, Ulmaer Rivrym and others) there is little to no published info on them so it is somewhat difficult to dispute or argue against for anyone else. Granted he would know more but his answer is a discusion killer, the point to me of topics like this IS meaningless opinion expresion and debate Ed's answer kills that.



I don't think it kills the debate, because I consider Ed's answer to be mostly an opinion anyway--that may sound like heresy to some people, but I don't think there's an objective way to answer the question of who the BEST of anything is. What does it mean to be the "best"? It is by nature a matter of subjective opinion, and I believe ED acknowledged that it's a tough question to answer.

Also, IIRC Ed's answer isn't about who the best warrior is, it was about who the best swordsman is.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
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Talanfir Swiftfeet
Learned Scribe

Finland
143 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2006 :  08:54:21  Show Profile  Visit Talanfir Swiftfeet's Homepage Send Talanfir Swiftfeet a Private Message
Does Grandmaster Kane have stats on him? I'd really like to know how powerful he is. In Road of the Patriarch one of the dragons thought that he had changed to an outsider, so that may give us some clue of his level.

I am Talanfir Swiftfeet. (In)famous across the Swoardcoast as "Tal the Swift", Brandobaris´ seraph of mischief. If ye find yer shoelaces tied together while trying to catch a thief or meet a king who is angry because somebody switched the places of his chamberpot and his crown, ye can usually (try to) find me near.

If I had a halfling mother and a human father, would I be a half-halfling or a threequarterling?
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe

USA
266 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2006 :  09:24:05  Show Profile  Visit Archwizard's Homepage Send Archwizard a Private Message
That's an overt reference to 3e rules. A regular monk becomes an outsider at 20th level.
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Talanfir Swiftfeet
Learned Scribe

Finland
143 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2006 :  15:01:05  Show Profile  Visit Talanfir Swiftfeet's Homepage Send Talanfir Swiftfeet a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Archwizard

That's an overt reference to 3e rules. A regular monk becomes an outsider at 20th level.


Yeah well I don't remember her exact words, but I think that it was something like "he's not entirely of this world".

I am Talanfir Swiftfeet. (In)famous across the Swoardcoast as "Tal the Swift", Brandobaris´ seraph of mischief. If ye find yer shoelaces tied together while trying to catch a thief or meet a king who is angry because somebody switched the places of his chamberpot and his crown, ye can usually (try to) find me near.

If I had a halfling mother and a human father, would I be a half-halfling or a threequarterling?
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2006 :  23:36:06  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message
By the way, as I argued in another thread, it is not at all a given that Kane is "the most powerful warrior in the Realms".

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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