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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Nov 2014 : 20:57:13
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I am making a plea for help because my game has turned from players being adventurers to players being nation builders because I accidentally posted the following to my group's public folder. This was a half-baked idea but, good gawd, the sparkling eyes I could not say "no" to and now I need help. EDIT: see the post dated 24DEC2015 below.
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I have been trying to rebuild my old campaign setting when I got sidetracked by a notion regarding D&D's divine magics and established deity-centric religions. How is it that errant paladins and itinerant clerics can alleviate the suffering of dozens in the course of minutes up to returning life to the departed yet people inside the same realm still fall pray to disease, terrible injury, and premature death when there are far more divine casters ensconced in static temples or areas of worship in every civilized settlement great & small? With the influence of gods so powerful and prevalent, why are theocracies so few and wildly out of character in nearly every D&D setting? And why would established orders of clerics doing the bidding of their deity 1) allow members of their order to just wander off with their investment of training and 2) charge money for what is their deity's gift of power to be used to advance the divine one's interests?
Trying to answer these questions I turned to... the internet. To my surprise, no one mused about such things and put them online in any manner that I can search and find. The closest I came to anything helpful was when I tripped over an rpg.net review for a gaming supplement called "The Primal Order." Since TPO is about the ins and outs of deities from rise to fall it espoused several ideas that got me thinking more about the deities' favorite mortals. What is the purpose of priests? Why is there a need for shrines, temples, ceremonies, and sacred days? What is with the symbology and graven images when evidence of the godly is an everyday occurrence to remind the masses of the immortals?
There had been many articles written about the roles of holy warriors in societies and cultures, even suggestions for keeping roleplaying the class a central but rewarding aspect of play; however, between the gods and the PCs is a dearth of information as to what happens to the vast majority of sacred power in the hands of the NPCs. Again, why the expensive trappings of churches and herding together congregations for rituals to a god among many? I've been thinking that the power in the hands of the NPC clerics is used (expended 100%) every day, that the structures from placed idols to soaring cathedrals are channels for power, that masses & prayers at certain times cause holy powers to surge, and those powers through those channels have effects to the surrounding community from which they benefit daily. I started musing on the following but need some kind of feedback to prevent the flywheel effect of pointlessly spinning.
Admittedly, computer games have influenced my thinking to this point. I give the lion’s share of the credit to the makers of “King of Dragon Pass” for their magic through shrine and temple effects. Nods are also given to “Caesar III’s” temple and god celebrating festival effects as well as, strangely, Sid Meier’s “Civilization” and “Master of Magic” because the building effects covered the community around those buildings.
Religion and civilization
Faerun has advanced magics that sustain(ed) entire kingdoms and gods that have walked the planet. So how do organized religions effect every gathering place that erects a temple or shrine? Why would people be allowed to die or even seriously hurt if even moderately skilled clergy can raise their dead and the most lowly cleric can bring someone from the brink of death to a hale and hearty condition in seconds? And if a minority powerful clergy, say a 7th level cleric, can just walk around and perform magical miracles like lowering flood waters, altering a person's memory, conjuring a wall of flames, or turn enemies at each others throats then what is the purpose of altars and temples?
What if the places of worship provided some divine benefit? What if the people and the lands were showered with godly power in direct relation to the power of the clergy maintaining the church and the rituals performed? What if calamities can be averted, harvest were made bountiful, diseases were prevented, the weather made milder, and adversaries kept away by orchestrated devotional services and regular offerings? The premise questions laid out are the focus of this essay to explain what all those high level priests do in those sacred halls and why they would charge money for performing even basic services.
Temples and services. How congregant worship differs from clergy lead mass. How often the cycle repeats and what is required.
Congregants that matter have three ranks: cordial, faithful, and devoted. Their rank matters as a direct proportion of power derived from their prayer. This power is than multiplied by the number of fellow worshippers of the same rank. Non-believers, infidels, and those preoccupied with other endeavors during prayers (whether lead or not) do not have any power to give nor do they take away any power from the rites UNLESS they are actively disturbing/disrupting the ceremonies.
The congregants’ state of mind also provides a factor as passion and fervor boost the energy provided to the worshipped deity. The more excited the congregation, the more power is reaped by the god, the greater the effects of the worship. Some gods have a preference for the types of emotion to be harvested and it is up to the rite performers to establish that mood with stories of godly deeds and carefully orchestrated prayers & chants/songs. Stoking the crowd is an act of performance and leadership.
Performers of the rites are likewise broken into three ranks: true, shared, and reverent. Divine casters devote their spell power into rites they lead or support. The spell levels are multiplied by their ranking. True ritualists are those of the same faith with primary worship of the named deity. Shared ritualists are worshippers of another deity that has overlapping spheres (a god of nature and a goddess of harvests both have plants as their portfolio). Reverent ritualists worship unaligned deities or may not themselves be ordained clergy but have knowledge of the necessary ritual to properly worship or at least appease the deity in question. Proper performance of the rite requires knowledge of the religious rites or the skills of a professional temple priest.
Level of divine spells offered up and their effects. Make sure to cover ratio of transfer to population and to area size. Positive effects are Benedictions and negative effects are Maledictions.
How do deity domains effect the power-ups for the devotional powers?
Costs are indulgences to offer to the deity for extending its protection in lieu of the cleric's power. This sacrifice is to be taken or used in accordance with the deity's wishes and not those of the priest. Monetary donations and sacrifices are not based on an absolute amount but on the work spent to acquire that wealth by the giver. A peasant farmer who gives up a silver coin out of the 3sp he earned that month is of greater deific value than a merchant prince who delivers 100 gold coins to the offering plate of the 1000 he has collected that month. It is the feeling of worth for the items and the act of submission by relinquishing what is prized to a deity that gives monetary indulgences and sacrifices their power. Likewise, labor in the name of the deity and for the sake of the deity also carries that same power. Construction of an abbey, working the clerical order’s fields, and crafting the artistic appointments of the temple, are all examples of power giving labors.
Benediction, Malediction, Rogation, Supplication, Communion, Devotion, Entreaty, Litany, Invocation, Appeal, Imprecation
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Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
Edited by - SaMoCon on 25 Dec 2015 06:24:01
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2014 : 22:16:04
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| What do you need help with? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2014 : 22:28:05
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| Dalor, best I can make of SaMoCon's post is everything concerning religion and how it works in the Realms are the questions. I am not sure I can come close to answering them in any way at all. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2014 : 22:51:44
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Over on the WotC boards we had several discussions like this, but I think all of that was lost when they changed their site (at least three times since then).
I had some tables I made showing the relationship between priest level, the gods zone of influence, and distance from holy place or artifact (of that god), also factoring-in the power level of the place and/or artifact. It was kinda cool as I remember (if I do say so myself), but I couldn't even begin to put all that back together again.
My thinking was that a priest's level was just an 'average', when it reality, it should be more of a sliding-scale, dependent upon MANY factors. If you are standing in the center of a religious empire, in its main cathedral, surrounded by the bones of 'saints' and wielding a relic that is central to the deity's worship, then a cleric should be able to perform WAY higher then his level would normally allow. By the same token, a priest stuck in some far-off land where his god was never heard of, and some other deity is holding that portfolio, then the priest's power should be greatly diminished. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Nov 2014 22:53:28 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2014 : 00:45:48
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Priests casting spells like raise dead, resurrection, regeneration, and restoration must (at least in early AD&D editions) suffer some immediate and serious personal harm. They become aged, drained, weakened, bedridden - if a PC priest is loathe to cast such spells lightly, then so too an NPC priest must be as well. Meaning that individuals who are "worth" bringing back to life and health have access to such beyond-death medical plans while the vast majority (of "worthless", lol) do not.
Remember that (at least in old AD&D editions) priest do not simply cast spells for everybody who walks through the door with some gold. They also demand tangible and intangible services, demonstrations of faith, they are within their rights (indeed, expected by their deities) to require "worth" is proven through atonement, conversion, quests, and other such stuff. And they certainly have no particular obligation to serve those who do not support their faith, let alone those who actively oppose it or happen to serve the interests of opposed deities.
Yet another consideration is that such divine spells are *never* 100% successful. Sometimes a dead character is just dead, and is just gonna stay dead. That assumes that enough remains can be salvaged to actually empower the spellcasting - if someone is blasted into distingrated motes of dust or he falls off the edge of the world or is dragged away by screaming demons then there's little one can do.
FR novels have made little use of priestly abilities to reverse pain and bring back the dead. Some authors have volunteered that such devices cheapen and trivialize the risks and consequences and struggles of the characters. A few FR novels have gone to somewhat excessive lengths to "lay a character to rest", exploring how grief and loss (and vengeance) subsequently motivates other characters. Conversely, I have seen other FR novels where a dead character (like, say, an assassinated noble) is expected to be routinely fixed up by the local priesthood. |
[/Ayrik] |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2014 : 02:29:39
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Yeah, I knew this was going to be very different for me to convey because D&D games are very tactical (and tack a "very" on for every edition after 2nd). The effect of worship centralized in a place creates power - get enough it focused on an entity and *BAM* you've got a new immortal god. We have books about ascensions to godhood. We have books about the powers of clergy. What we don't have is why there needs to be communal worship, or special days. Why do certain gods like blood sacrifices? What's the importance of rituals? "Color" is not good enough as an answer... not anymore because my players are expecting more.
The power of clerics is the power borrowed from the gods. The gods (even the evil ones) grant their power for the benefit of people. The more people who have prospered from the grace of a deity, the greater the throng of devotion. The Time of Troubles established that quid pro quo link between worshipers and worshiped. But the cleric powers are an arsenal for the squad level battlefield, not for use in a civilization. I do not accept that devotion is a constant stream of power from each person regardless of location, activity, and state of mind. Add to that the realization the grand majority of clergy resides in purpose built structures of worship and we can only conclude that the powers of these clerics are used very differently.
Either we create a new NPC class (NOOOOOoooooo!) or... I write a rambling essay and reveal it to my players before it's ready for primetime. I have a notion that the clerics give the power back - not to the god, but to the community. Having a temple in a community should make things better. Power and effects should emanate out, and the people would count such proximity amongst their blessings. This idea did not come from a vacuum.
I count a number of games for playing with such notions: King of Dragon Pass, Caesar, Civilization, and Dominion.
I wish I could write more but I gotta' go. The Blessings in King of Dragon Pass, how they directly affect the community in which the houses of worship are erected, is mostly the direction I am looking. A direct affect but it is over time and has little to know tactical importance but for the people make all the difference in the world. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2014 : 02:48:23
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Realm Magic in the Birthright campaign setting was a very concrete way of a Cleric benefiting the congregation (and the land itself) via the application of Divine Power the cleric was given. The more concentrated the power of a Deity in an area (represented by Holdings that were a percentage of available people in the area; with smaller populations unable to muster enough power for their God because the Holding Level was based on population size as well as percentage), the more powerful the magic that a cleric could call on.
I always loved that mechanic...though I wasn't so fond of the Wizard equivalent being tied to the land; so in my own campaigns I gave the "Land Power" to Druids and the Wizards had to compile artifacts and various rare tomes for their power in Sanctums and such. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Fendrikor
Learned Scribe
Australia
189 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2014 : 03:36:12
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Another thing to take into consideration with raising people from the dead, is that it is a luxury only for the super rich and noble houses who can afford that sort of miracle.
The average peasant earns a pittance, and much of that is spent on taxes, feeding themselves AND their children, who would also need to work at a young age just for the family unit to survive. And this is assumeing they are laborers. Farmers do not 'earn' per day, they earn per harvest and market. They pay farm hands from the previous harvest.
Assuming most people in Faerun are Bumpkins, very few will ever come back from Kelemvores realm in such a way as their familys would be unable to pay the cost for the diamonds needed.
Even if, say, a church of goodly dietys or philanthropic adventurers were to involve themselves and run a raising of the dead fund raising campaign out of pity - this would serve only to create a widespread sense of entitlement among the poor, or even out-right riot. The thing is, people are terrified of dieing, and people cannot handle the death of loved ones well either - especially WHEN a solution such as raise dead exists. I can imagine the temple of Sune would be innundated with people claiming 'for the sake of love, return my dearest sarah to me'. How can a church remain goodly-benevolent and compassionant, when it has to tell people no for services it damn-well knows it would not refuse to the wealthy super elite (like the noble familys of waterdeep).
The reason raise dead is not widely used on people is because it is only 'rumored' that the priests have that power. And even still, it is the will of the Gods themselves that grant that miracle to begin with. The Gods know full well this would happen (they are smart enough and wise enough for that sort of forsight - with the exception of Siamorph who would believe the nobles are more than entitled to that kind of service) and thus perhaps they simply offer the brief fleeting visit of a loved one's ghost to say goodbye and offer closure. Feeling this as preferable the whole raise-dead-riot situation.
The bottom line is money. |
'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup' |
Edited by - Fendrikor on 16 Nov 2014 03:39:18 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2014 : 04:41:50
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Successful religions (on our world, anyhow) provide society with important things - continuity, community, and ceremony. Stable society with formally-defined baseline standards for moral and ethical conduct. A context for peers to converge and interact. Special rituals which impress significant days and events into indelible memories. And, of course, some sort of roadmap into eternal afterlife.
I would expect that each deity and each temple in the Realms must perform similar functions within their domains. |
[/Ayrik] |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2014 : 04:53:50
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
I've been thinking that the power in the hands of the NPC clerics is used (expended 100%) every day, that the structures from placed idols to soaring cathedrals are channels for power, that masses & prayers at certain times cause holy powers to surge, and those powers through those channels have effects to the surrounding community from which they benefit daily.
I started plugging away at your questions, and when I got to this point I realized that those questions were probably rhetorical. 
Interesting ideas. You're talking about changing the core mechanics of clerics and divine power. It's a big undertaking, but it sounds like you're onto something as far as creating dramatic imagery, and it sounds like your players are on board. |
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Misereor
Learned Scribe
164 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2014 : 09:46:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Successful religions (on our world, anyhow) provide society with important things - continuity, community, and ceremony. Stable society with formally-defined baseline standards for moral and ethical conduct. A context for peers to converge and interact. Special rituals which impress significant days and events into indelible memories. And, of course, some sort of roadmap into eternal afterlife.
I would expect that each deity and each temple in the Realms must perform similar functions within their domains.
Quoted for truth.
The Gods exist in the divine realms, but their followers exist in the regular, boring old world. The clerical hierarchies relationships with each other would either come to reflect whatever society they existed in, or society would change to reflect theirs (or most likely something in between).
In the end, they would fit in, and it is up to the DM to determine how. In some societies the clerics would hold great power be able to enforce their desires on the rest of society, while in others they would have to make accomodations and possibly keep a low profile. In all they would find some kind of role to fullfill, most likely connected to whatever portfolio their god represents.
As cultures collided, from villages to cities to nations, regional patterns would emerge. In the end the church hierarchy of a given deity could end up looking extremely different in Waterdeep and Mulhorand, and so too the outlook of their worshippers. But this is a rather large and somewhat nerdy topic to explore in standard sourcebooks, so again, it comes to the DM to determine the specifics.
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What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder, stronger, in a later edition. |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2014 : 10:01:19
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I was hoping to not have to make a core change in the dynamics of either the class or the deity involved but to add something to the "in-between" of the two that would provide greater gravitas to what has always been minimally referenced and dismissed as mere color or fluff. The rhetorical questions are really to jumpstart that process of thinking about the clear connection of the two through that often dismissed step.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Realm Magic in the Birthright campaign setting...
*blink* *blink* Uh... excuse me, I gotta' go buy a book! Thanks, Dalor Darden! |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2014 : 16:12:01
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Yea, I realized that after delving into your post ... "rhetorical" probably isn't the right word. Maybe "leading questions." Just meaning that you were going in a particular direction with them. The questions have answers that don't go in that direction, but this is fantasy and we're free to go where we want with it. 
And I agree, that Birthright thing sounds pretty awesome. |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2014 : 22:00:29
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I like the idea that places of worship have power - a power that must be refreshed by worship, devotion, sacrifice, rites, and so on. I like the idea that NPCs don't have divine power just sitting in their hands doing nothing until the PCs show up requesting the use of it. I like the idea that the divine power diverted to the PCs ends must be substituted by power the PCs offer as a sacrifice, which is (in game terms) the cost. The flavor text never included that the PCs should themselves be praying along with the NPC priest and participating in the rituals so that both the deity and the people would see the PCs as worthy of the benediction. The assumption is that a bag of gold is handed to the head priest and it disappears into the pockets under his vestments and he casts the spell that would otherwise be sitting unused all day and be lost while he slept.
I also like the idea that priests devoted to one deity, and this is the controversial part, would also offer prayers and lead rites devoted to other deities even of opposite alignments. There are more reasons to pray to a god than to be one of the favored mortals of that being. Evil, vengeful, destructive, and unpleasant gods have many prayers and offerings sent their way in the desperate attempt to appease them or stay their hand. The ritual offering to Umberlee every ship makes before leaving port is such a canon practice, not because all the sailors are evil and believe in her doctrine, but because they live in fear of her power and believe that this token gesture may cause her to not actively attempt to sink their vessel. The belief powers the ritual sacrifice and who better to perform the ritual in a way that is least likely to displease a deity than a priest? Yes, they may devote themselves to one god before all others, but the others are still there.
A rural farming village may have a single shrine to Chauntea with an acolyte who maintains the shrine and works with the other farmers in the field during the day when not performing daily rites at certain times of the day. A cold snap in the weather brings early frost onto the community threatening the more delicate fruits & vegetables with damage and the grains with mold and rot. The acolyte would be the one who leads prayers of supplication and the village would offer sacrifices befitting to the gods; entreating Auril to delay her Southerly encroachment and a plea to Finder Wyvernspur to fight the rot in the fields as he had fought the Rotting God, Moander. It is the acolyte who would know these things and be able to devote the meager offerings of the village to the most positive effect.
Anyways, I got stuff to read. ^.^ |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2014 : 23:46:29
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My understanding is that priests dedicated to specific deities in the Realms will still acknowledge and respect other deities. It might be a bit of a stretch to expect a priest to offer blessings in the name of a strongly opposed deity. Good luck trying to convince a Battlepriest of Tempus that he should soothe Eldath's flock, or trying to ask a Magistrate of Tyr to bend the law a bit so some followers of Mask can get some slack.
But a druid of Silvanus would likely serve Chauntea's faithful with little hesitation, he might even happily assist followers of (to him) uninteresting and unrelated deities like Oghma or Tymora in their battles against nature-destroying servants of Malar and Talos.
I wouldn't properly refer to the Realms pantheon as polytheistic, but instead as henotheistic. The difference is subtle but important. |
[/Ayrik] |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2014 : 02:15:41
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I dunno', Ayrik. The lack of religious wars, attempts to eradicate religious followings, inquisitions, and so on plus the acceptance by civilized societies of very dangerous proselytizers of blatantly evil gods speaks more to polytheism being the norm. Why are not churches of Shar burned wherever they are found, the adherents of Talona slaughtered outright, the followers of Bane hung from the gates, and the heads of Cyricists adorning pikes if there is not a cordiality between the religions? Members of differing faiths don't even attempt to disrupt each other's masses. Yes, it is a stretch to expect the effect of an Ilmater priests prayers to Garagos would have as great an impact as one of Garagos' own cleric-led service. But if the need is great, who better than a priest to do the service? That's why I wrote the following:
quote:
Performers of the rites are likewise broken into three ranks: true, shared, and reverent. Divine casters devote their spell power into rites they lead or support. The spell levels are multiplied by their ranking. True ritualists are those of the same faith with primary worship of the named deity. Shared ritualists are worshippers of another deity that has overlapping spheres (a god of nature and a goddess of harvests both have plants as their portfolio). Reverent ritualists worship unaligned deities or may not themselves be ordained clergy but have knowledge of the necessary ritual to properly worship or at least appease the deity in question. Proper performance of the rite requires knowledge of the religious rites or the skills of a professional temple priest.
And I'd say "Hell, yes!" to even having situations where groups of PCs are trying to convince the Battlepriest and the Magistrate to do just that. The role play of that conflict of interests just sings to me like a siren's call. Are they the best of all variables to be doings so? No, but they may be the best you can get in that moment. If you look at the majority of RPG scenarios, the PCs are less than the ideal for dealing with most situations where there are elite legions of knights, elven high mages, arch priests of venerable ecclesiastic orders, skillful cadres of spies, and elder statesmen of unsurpassed oratory. The scenarios are designed to press the PCs to action because they are there while the others are not.
Let's turn this situation on its head. If you're a priest of a god and a flock of unaligned people come to you asking for your help in praying to another god then would you say "No! And away with you heretics" while turning your back on them? Or would you consider how helping them is a way to help boost your message to them about your own god? And what of these people who come to you for help? How highly do they think of you to be there asking with hat in hand? IRL I had served on a ship with a single priest who would help the prayers of crewmen of different denominations and had assured us that he was well versed in the last rites rituals of many major religions of the world (which, was less reassuring than I think he imagined the declaration to be).
I finished up on my reading and Realms Magic is... very tactical and wargame orientated while still being very, very vague. Still, it is exciting that the framework even exists. This is something with which I shall endeavor to decouple the wargame aspects from the system and work a more FR pantheon and civilization muscle and organs onto the bones. -.- Yeah, that's going to take me a year. As soon as I have a better write-up I'll post stuff here (or start a new topic if enough time passes).
Thank you, everyone who has responded. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2014 : 03:01:27
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| Good luck to ya. I'm interested in seeing what you come up with. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2014 : 23:42:05
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Temples dedicated to Shar often disguise themselves as other sorts of temples serving other deities. I understand that secrecy is a big part of Shars faith, but the fact that all of her temples do not operate openly seems strongly suggestive of a Burn-Down-Shars-Churches attitude through most of Faerun. The clergy of Talona, Bane, and Cyric are generally not tolerated - indeed, they face banishment, imprisonment, or execution - in most cities or nations. Their churches only prosper in places where they have installed themselves as something of a dominant state religion, places where the local goverment happily applies steel and magic to maintain their power.
I havent really seen much evidence of religious war, schisms, inquisitions, crusades, jihads, and the rest. Realmslore tends to oversimplify - the good guys with good gods are noble paladins who boldly smite away, the bad guys with bad gods are skulking assassins and schemers and poisoners. There have been crusades in Realmslore, but not of the religious sort. There have been schisms and splintered faiths in Realmslore, but always a sort of small affair which includes just a handful of churches.
But of course in the Realms we have some examples of deities murdering other deities, usurping power, impersonating each other, and becoming obsessed with plots to destroy one another. Cyrics actions in the post-Avatar novels would be a clear basis for (un)holy war of the most distasteful kinds in our world - but such events were not explicitly outlined or explored in the novels. It seems that deities of the Realms like to focus on small-minded thinking patterns, centered entirely on small regions or cities which function as strongholds of religious power. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2014 : 15:12:12
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Very interested in this too. I think it would be interesting to cook up a system where a regions clergies need to compete over a month, gathering as much worship in the time leading up to the months end. When the pent up worship is discharged into blessings for the populace, the benefits will depend on the winning clergies ritual. This will usually be a minor blessing partaining to a certain domain, such as a nation wide Guidance when trying 'sense motive' actions in a region where sharrans have won the 'worship-race'.
I think the degree of organisation within the clergies of Faerun is usually not sufficient enough to guarantee a 'worship' monopoly in a typical citystate. So reverant, allied clergies tend to be more succesful in 'cornering' indispensable religious services in a region. Because of the mixing of faiths, localised mini-pantheons are even common; in places such as Cimbar particular relationships between the clergies are explained in a myths about gods doing battle, disputing or loving one or another. Cimbars warrior culture has led to some faiths adapting to it. For example Lathander is seen quite differently, he is more of a god of vigourous athletics, granting boons to wrestlers who show great endurance.
Cimbar is interesting because it's a mixing pot of a lot of faiths. The war portfolio is constantly shifting from Untheric (Assuran/Hoar) to Mulhorandi (Anhur) to Faerunian gods and demigods (Tempus, Garagos, Tchazzar). A huge amount of heroworship is popular among the many mercenaries, and mercenaries from the east and south exitingly tell of other wargods too... The chessentan populace is easily swayed from this god to that one, as they are not particular devout types, but love the minor blessings they get when at religious oratories or events. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2014 : 22:46:23
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Such a rules system already exists in Birthright - it's quite excellently integrated as a dominant and fundamental element within the world setting. Alas, it is not completely appropriate for as-is inclusion within the Realms. A bit of a shame, really, since the evolution of Realmslore (and D&D rules-lore in general) has evolved more and more into being strongly influenced by divine meddlings. A Realms-flavoured adaptation of the Birthright bloodline-domain rules system would probably be well received.
A drawback inherent within the system is the bloodline. Each PC/NPC inherits a bloodline, it establishes a permanently intrinsic part of what that character can do best, it cannot ever be changed or denied. In short, a PC priest with a deity's bloodline would find it nearly impossible to ever abandon his deity, become a priest of a different deity, or readily explore other class/build options which counter his deity's interests. It's a limit, and most players (at least most inexperienced or powergaming players) chafe quite strongly against facing limits. WotC has had more than enough experience already with unpopular rules systems, it doesn't seem like good canon fodder. |
[/Ayrik] |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2015 : 06:10:04
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SALUTATIONS, A YEAR LATER!
Sad to say, but I still don't have a finished product on this one. What I do have is an add on to the 3/3.5 system mechanics. That does not change anything as far as the mechanics of the game is concerned.
quote:
Temples and services. Places of worship provide multiple effects.
The design and placement of the temple provides bonuses to the clergy in attracting congregants and focusing their pious energies. Treat it like a magical item providing a competence bonus to proselytizing the public and increasing the power of divine magics from that deity. Typical skills for sacred bonuses are Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge: Religion, Perform: Oratory, Perform: Sing, and any appropriate Profession skills. These bonus are provided twice to the clergy: proselytizing inside the temple at full bonus and proselytizing in the community at half bonus (rounded down). This proselytizing is necessary to attract AND MAINTAIN the congregants they have.
How do you systemize this? There should not be a roll but a skill check with the Take 10 mechanic on a ten-day basis. The DC is modified by the alignment differences of the population and the deity, the interests of the population and any dissonance with the deity's portfolio, and difficulty arising from other present faiths with IDENTICAL deity alignments and/or domains. The base DC is 10 + 5DC for each step of alignment the aggregate of the population is from the head of the clergy and an additional +10 if the head of the clergy is not the same alignment as his/her god. Proselytizing incurs a +1DC for each identical domain of each temple within a 1 mile radius as well as a +3DC for each temple with a deity that shares an alignment. An additional +2DC penalty is applied for each step of alignment the clergy head is from the ruling power (whether that be a sovereign or the aggregate of a ruling council) representing the passive influence of politics. INCOMPLETE, EXPAND ON THIS
Internal space of the temple must also designated to hold the focal symbols (see below) imbued with the power of the deity, places for the congregants to seat themselves, avenues of free movement in and out of the temple, and areas for the em-placed enhancements to go.
A minimum of 5' square for each such symbol (i.e., a shrine must have at least a 5' square for a graven image or a 10' square for an altar). Additional 5' squares in the place of worship should be designated for masses that can accommodate a maximum of 4 medium humanoids each. Walls facing inwards towards the chamber where congregants participate in the masses may have displays (see below) built into them (thus rendering them immobile and as hardy versus damage as the structural walls).
Temple design must include open walkways for congregants to easily move in and out, otherwise it is not very inviting to the Cordial and even the Faithful will gravitate to another temple or outlying shrines instead of attending worship services. EXPAND ON THIS
The holy relics and symbolic displays decorating the temple act as multipliers to the pious energies. Murals, stained glass windows, paintings, statuary, altar accoutrements, candelabras, chalices, and other devices used in ritual masses. These multipliers work to solidify the faith of the attendees. Additionally there are ritual enhancements such as pulpits (max 2), choir boxes (max 16), confessionals (max 6), lecterns (1 ea), censers (max 4), and sprinklers (max 4) used by the clergy to advance the power of the faithful congregants.
Displays: Every 10gp in the cost of a display will add +1 power output of a single cordial congregant that attends a mass in a tenday period. The displays have two limitations: the maximum number of congregants any display can affect is 10 per tenday, and only one display can be in a 5' space at a time. Displays built into walls (see above) do not fill the space they are facing so that space can be designated for congregant seating or walkways but anything else renders the display ineffective.
Portable relics are required to maximize the output of a high volume church in a tenday period. These items have divine magical energies and are detected as such by appropriate powers and divinations. Only 1 relic may be used per member of the clergy involved in a mass. The number of congregants that may have their power output doubled by a relic in a tenday period is equal to the square root of its value, or, inversely, the number of congregants the relic is intended to affect (minimum 10 at the GM's discretion) times itself creates the value in gold pieces. Relics must be contained in a special holy room that serves no other purpose than to contain them called a reliquary that must be a minimum 5' square for every ten such objects to be stored.
Enhancements: Every 50gp in the cost of an enhancement will add +1/+2/+3 power output of a single cordial/faithful/devoted congregant that attends a mass in a tenday period. These enhancements rely upon the devoted congregants to affect a 5' space for each devoted assigned to that enhancement (numbers in the parentheses represent the maximum number of devoted that can be assigned such a spot; however, these congregants no longer take up seating space at masses).
The focal symbols of the deity are imbued with a radiating effect so long as it is maintained by the reverence of the clergy. The attendants of the temple empower effects by devoting their energy into an appropriate vessel. Again, this is going to lean on the game mechanics by converting the devotion in spell energy. Effects are bought through elaborate ceremonies and then maintained by the devotional though it could also be buoyed by material sacrifices (a direct explanation for why priests sell their spells).
Divine foci: altars, fonts, centralized holy symbols, idols, and other static edifices are vessels and have material costs proportionate to the divine magic each will radiate. Each may carry only one aspect of the deity (a specific domain allowed by the deity to his clerics). A divine focus costs in gold a tenth of the total divine power costs of the effects in which they are stored. Only well funded temples have the resources necessary to have four focal symbols (the average number of domains each deity offers to his clerics). The primary divine focus must cost a minimum of 50% more than the secondary, which must cost a minimum of 50% than the tertiary, and so on.
How congregant worship differs from clergy lead mass. How often the cycle repeats and what is required.
Congregants that matter have three ranks: cordial, faithful, and devoted. Their rank matters as a direct proportion of power derived from their prayer. This power is than multiplied by the number of fellow worshippers of the same rank. Non-believers, infidels, and those preoccupied with other endeavors during prayers (whether lead or not) do not have any power to give nor do they take away any power from the rites UNLESS they are actively disturbing/disrupting the ceremonies.
Cordial congregants (1) are those whom are curious, have been cajoled by the street priests, or were peer pressured into worshipping with the mass. These are the new members that can be recruited through proselytizing. Often, the cordial have other gods of primary worship or have no god to which they are devoted, but do pray for the blessings achieved or for succor from some misfortune as events warrant. Cordial congregants can only benefit from tier 1 & 2 effects only.
Faithful congregants (3) are those whom are pious and reverent in their worship, believing that this god has an active interest in the lives of the people. Every day the Faithful will attend one mass without fail unless a matter of imminent importance prevents attendance. These congregants are upgraded from the ranks of the cordial through indoctrination and exposure to the relics of the faith. Faithful congregants benefit from all effects of their faith.
Devoted congregants (5) are fanatical supplicants of this god and are candidates for induction into the clerical order. The devoted give up a measure of their free will to the deity and respond as if they have a Helpful or Fanatic attitude to the requests/demands of the clergy. The devoted attend every mass when possible and their numbers, if they grow, will force clergy to construct larger places of worship to allow the more numerous but less pious to attend some masses each week. Faithful congregants benefit from all effects of their faith.
The number in parentheses is the base weekly (tendaily?) measure of power that a congregant provides for the purposes of this article. While on the surface it appears that filling up the pews with the Devoted would have the maximum power it is really the ranks of the mercurial Cordial that provide the greatest source in a tenday because many of the cordial can sit for a single mass or a few per tenday in a shared spot with others while the seat of a Devoted is filled by that one across each mass of each day.
Practitioners of divine magics have an additional power-up that is counted extra, see below.
The congregants’ state of mind also provides a factor as passion and fervor boost the energy provided to the worshipped deity. The more excited the congregation, the more power is reaped by the god, the greater the effects of the worship. Some gods have a preference for the types of emotion to be harvested and it is up to the rite performers to establish that mood with stories of godly deeds and carefully orchestrated prayers & chants/songs. Stoking the crowd is an act of performance and leadership.
Performers of the rites are likewise broken into three ranks: true, shared, and reverent. Divine casters devote their spell power into rites they lead or support. The spell levels are multiplied by their ranking. True ritualists are those of the same faith with primary worship of the named deity - their leadership of masses is 100% effective. Shared ritualists are worshippers of another deity that has overlapping spheres (a god of nature and a goddess of harvests both have plants as their portfolio) - their leadership of masses is 75% effective. Reverent ritualists worship unaligned deities or may not themselves be ordained clergy but have knowledge of the necessary ritual to properly worship or at least appease the deity in question - their leadership of masses is 50% effective. Proper performance of the rite requires knowledge of the religious rites or the skills of a professional temple priest.
Divine practitioners can channel their divine powers into the temple. The power of divine spells and abilities offered up is equal to its market value but those exact divine powers must be channeled into the receptacles daily (or to its maximum ability across a tenday period) to empower temple abilities. A failure of putting those abilities into the temple for even a single day loses abilities as divine power is discharged from the most expensive to least expensive power-ups until reaching the level of power in equals power out. If there is ever going to be a shortfall that cannot otherwise be avoided then a special ceremony can be performed to sacrifice items of value or wealth to the deity in a 1 gold to 1 power ratio each day the shortfall occurs.
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Potentials 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Cleric 35 / 100 / 300 / 540 / 975 / 1470 / 2520 / 3440 / 4950 / 6400
Druid 25 / 80 / 210 / 420 / 675 / 1110 / 1820 / 2640 / 3870 / 5200
Adept 25 / 50 / 105 / 140 / 325 / 390 / 665 / 760 / 1125 / 1250
Paladin 0 / 5 / 7 / 10 / 12 / 135 / 157 / 220 / 382 / 525
Ranger 0 / 0 / 0 / 0 / 0 / 30 / 35 / 80 / 90 / 200
Potentials 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
Cleric 9130 / 11280 / 14820 / 17780 / 23250 / 27200 / 33660 / 38700 / 44840 / 50600
Druid 6820 / 8760 / 11180 / 13860 / 17850 / 21440 / 26010 / 30600 / 36290 / 41600
Adept 1925 / 2100 / 3055 / 3290 / 4575 / 4880 / 6035 / 6390 / 8455 / 8900
Paladin 577 / 990 / 1072 / 1365 / 1987 / 2280 / 2677 / 3195 / 4227 / 4850
Ranger 220 / 420 / 455 / 700 / 1050 / 1280 / 1615 / 1800 / 2755 / 3300
EXAMPLE: Small church (45' x 35' internal space) with two divine foci (an altar (150gp) & a shrine (100gp)), seats 100, and a 5' walkway that forms a track around the 5 rows of bench seating, has a sainted figure (100gp) in each corner of the room, and small stained glass windows (50gp) on alternating 5' sections of wall (14 total). A single 6th Level cleric is maintaining a tendaily maximum capacity flock size of 640 congregants (10 Devoted/130 Faithful/500 Cordial) using two masses per day. Since the cordial congregants numbers more than 180 the full effect of the displays is added to the flock bonuses. 50+390+500+180=1120 The cleric's power of 1470 added to the flock's is enough to power up two Tier 1 effects (1000 power each - 1 in the shrine and 1 in the altar) and still have enough power leeway to leave 590gp worth of spellcasting available to the cleric on a daily basis.
How do deity domains effect the power-ups for the devotional powers? Each level of power has a divine cost of the square of its level times 1000. A divine focus can only be dedicated to a single domain so that more than one domain's worth of effects requires multiple foci.
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Universal power to all domains -5DC Natural Disease checks 2 / Slow Spoilage Food & Water 4 / Repel Vermin 6
Air +5' Fly speed 1 / Control Winds 5
Animal -2DC Animal related Skill check 1 / Improve Fertility (Plant Growth for animals) 3
Bonds (Civilization, Community, Family) +5DC to attempts to change attitudes 1 / Improve Fertility (Plant Growth for people) 3
Cavern -2DC Knowledge Dungeoneering 1 / Secure Shelter 3
Chaos -2 DC Bluff skill checks / Magic Circle 3 /
Charm -2DC Charisma stat checks 1 / +1 Charisma 3 / Calm Emotions 5
Cold -4DC Survival skill checks vs. cold 1 / Resist Energy Cold (3) 3
Craft -2DC Craft Skill Checks 1 /
Darkness -10' to all visibility except candle light 1 / Blacklight 3
Death -1DC Fort save vs. Death or die conditions 1 / Death Ward 5
Destruction +2DC to all Break Checks 1 / +1 Constitution 3
Earth +5' Burrow speed 1 / Harden Earth & Stone 3 /
Evil -2 DC Intimidate skill checks / Unholy Blight 5 /
Fate -2DC Wisdom stat checks 1 / +1 Wisdom 3 / Status 5
Fire -4DC Survival skill checks vs. heat 1 / Resist Energy Flame (3) 3
Good -2DC Sense Motive skill checks / Magic Circle 3 /
Hatred +2DC Bluff, Gather Information, & Intimidate checks 1 /
Healing -2DC Healing Check 1 / +1 HP per day Natural Healing 3
Knowledge +2 Knowledge Skills 1 / See Invisible 3
Law -2DC Diplomacy skill checks / Magic Circle 3 /
Luck Aid 2 (a once per day luck bonus) /
Magic -1DC FortRefWill vs. Spells 3 /
Mentalism -2DC Will vs. Mind Affecting 1 /
Metal -2DC metal related checks 1 /
Moon +10' to all visibility at night 1 / Endure Elements 1
Nobility +1 to Leadership Score 1 / +1 Charisma 3
Ocean -2DC water related checks 1 /
Planning -2DC Perform Skill checks 1 / +1 Wisdom 3
Plant -2DC Plant related Skill Check 1 / Plant Growth 3
Portal -2DC Search Skill checks 1 / Dimensional Anchor 5
Protection -1 all to hit rolls 1 / Sanctuary 3 /
Racial (Bestial, Celestial, Demonic, Diabolic, Dragon, Drow, Dwarf, Elf, Fey, Giant, Gnome, Halfling, Human, Orc, Scalykind, OTHER) -2DC Constitution stat checks 1 / +1 Constitution 3
Renewal Gentle Repose 1 / Slow Poison/Disease 3
Retribution +1 to all Confirm Critical Hit rolls 1 /
Rune -2DC Intelligence stat checks 1 / +1 Intelligence 3
Slime Resist Energy Acid 3 (3) /
Spell -2DC Spellcraft skill checks / +1 Caster Level 3
Spider -2DC Fort vs. Poison 1 /
Storm Resist Energy Electric 3 (3) /
Strength -2DC Strength stat checks 1 / +1 Strength 3
Suffering -2DC vs. starvation & smoke checks 1 / Ignore Exhausted condition 3
Sun +10' to all visibility at day 1 / Endure Elements 1
Time Resist Energy Sonic 3 (3) /
Trade -2DC Profession Skill Checks 1 /
Travel +5' Movement 1 / +5' all Move speeds 3
Trickery -2DC Dexterity stat checks 1 / +1 Dexterity 3
Tyranny +1 to Leadership Score 1 / Ignore Frightened condition 3
Undeath -2DC vs undead effect checks 1 / Desecrate 3
War -2DC Will vs Fear 1 / Magic Vestment 7 /
Water +5' Swim speed 1 / Control Water 5
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Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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The Real Effect of Religion *WALL o'TEXT WARNING*
