| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Sojo_Radish
Acolyte
12 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 20:05:00
|
Hello everyone and I am new here. Sorry if such questions had been asked before, but I've searched the forum but the scrolls on this subject all ended before my question being solved.
My question is, are the faithless only primal mortal, or a planar mortal in realmspace could also be judged as a faithless?
I know all mortal in Faerun would be judged as faithless if they refused to worship any god, and it seems the Kara-Turian had their own pocket astral plane and their celestial bureaucracy seem to be involved into some pacts with Kelemvor. The similar goes to other demi-human pantheons, so at least all the listed mortal races in Toril have their clear route in the afterlife question. But consider the gith races, both githzerai and githyanki are listed as "mortal", and eventually a common gith would die of old age, only they have been too into the planes that they became planar. And we know how they despise or abhor the concept of god, seeing them as slavery. So when a githzerai died in Limbo or later Element Chaos, or a githyanki died in Astral Plane, would he be judged by Kelemvor and be sentenced as a faithless?
A similar situation is about a Faerunian mortal who went to settle in the Sigil, no longer a follower of any god, and finally died in accident or something when he returned to Faerun. Will he still be judged by Kelemvor? I ask this in case that the Sigil is included in the realmspace.
And I assume an immortal planar would be absorbed by his home plane when he got killed in his home plane, as in other settings?
BTW, as the Wall of the Faithess was established by Myrkul who used to be a human, its history is rather short comparing to the whole realm history. So is it possible that there used to be some other destiny for the faithless at those times?
Thank you very much.
|
|
|
Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2013 : 20:34:03
|
| I would hold that unless you die within Realmspace or claim one of Toril's gods as a patron, Kelemvor has zero claim over what happens to your soul in the afterlife. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
|
 |
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 00:39:21
|
I'd further add that if you aren't a realmsian native born, Kelemvor should have no ties to your soul. I'd even break it down further and state that if you were say a realmsian born but lived in Al-Qadim, Kelemvor has no claim on your soul. Some may disagree, but that's an entirely different pantheon in an area outside the control of the Faerunian Pantheon.
Your question about the faithless prior to Myrkul is a good one. Did Jergal do something else with them (trade the souls to night hags for instance)? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 07:15:02
|
Most of the deities in the Realms pantheon have a compact with Myrkul before and now Kelemvor, to ensure that there are no faithless. Even the gods of good keep to the Wall of the Faithless to ensure that all worship some Power.
As for other pantheons, it depends, most of the mortals in other lands are under the jurisdiction of other Powers who may decide to offer these souls one last chance at worshiping them to receive some sort of afterlife, if they don't they may be sold to night hags or fiends.
However it must be noted that even though a soul may be deemed faithless, the soul can still make a deal with the ambassadors from the Nine Hells to become a devil, though I think the deal you may get may be not so good, or even a faithless soul can be kidnapped by demons during their raids into Kelemvor's realm. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
|
|
|
Sojo_Radish
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 09:25:10
|
Thank you all for your answers, wise scribes. In fact I'll be very pleased to see the authority of Kelemvor limited in Faerunian realmspace, as he is only one of the Faerun pantheon.
And regarding the realm native born, we know that the five Creator Races are the native of the natives, and all others, including certain human races, are from other worlds. So would it be safe to say with dwelling time long enough, the new comers would be regarded as faerunian natives, or some efforts of the pantheon of these new comers should be made? Just as the whole Mulhorandi pantheon were allowed to enter realmspace and after that the Mulan were seen as true natives of Faerun?
(And in the 4e realm, even as the whole Mulhorand got crashed away along with their gods, the "living" Thayians who are Mulan are still considered realm natives due to "they have already become long ago"?)
On contrary, what about the other four Creator Races who eventually left the primal Toril to the other planes? And what about the fey races, does Kelemvor still hold authority over them, and the Archfey are regarded equivalent to the gods? |
|
|
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 12:47:23
|
I think that the Creator Races still in the Realms would be subject to Kelemvor's judgment but consider that many of them fled for the planes and would be subject to whatever planar "afterlife" on the planes.
As for Fey, when a fey dies I do believe they are "returned" to the lands of they Feywild itself. To answer your question though in all honesty, I don't think Kelemvor has any say on the "soul" of a fey. That would be the purview of the Fey Courts, the Seelie and Unseelie and the various kings and queens who hold their own courts swearing allegiance to one or the other or both. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
|
|
|
Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 17:09:23
|
Actually, for a detailed answer to this question, Planescape goes into this issue.
If someone dies away from their home plane, quite a lot of different things can happen to their soul or spirit. Assuming that nothing bad happens, a soul would try to make its way to its deity's plane. There are lots of "conduits" in the outer planes that lead to other-wheres in the multiverse. This might take a LONG time, but the soul would be highly motivated to do so because if it's destroyed or "killed" as a petitioner, then the soul is destroyed forever.
Other possibilities... the petitioner's soul gets trapped somewhere and can't reach the necessary conduits, or doesn't know how to find said conduits that lead to their deity's realm. Or if they die in places where there are evil spirits or demons, etc... they can be attacked and destroyed. Or worse, captured and imprisoned. As a wandering petitioner (aka soul/spirit) far from their deity's realm, they're in serious danger of almost anything happening to them.
So the long story is that a non-Prime petitioner wouldn't be considered faithless, they'd just have to reach their deity's realm on their own, unless there are "representatives" of their Prime that can help lead them to the right conduits. For example, suppose you have a worshiper of Thor who dies in Faerun... his soul could petition Tyr (in the 1E-3E period) to get help in going to Thor's domain in another Prime. Similarly, a worshiper of a different Prime's Oghma could seek out Oghma and perhaps choose to stay or get help going back to his Oghma's Prime.
A Sigil-based Realmsian would still have his Prime considered to be Toril's Prime, so he'd go to Kelemvor... but if he died on Sigil he would have to find his own conduits to travel to Kelemvor. Until he does, he'd be a wandering petitioner who could be utterly destroyed.
Immortal Planars (elementals, celestials, demons, devils) who are killed on their plane of origin are re-absorbed by their plane and do not re-form. They would only re-form if they are killed off-plane.
Githzerai and other beings who are mortal, they wouldn't be considered "planar" in the same way a demon or devil is a planar. Githzerai/mortals would consider a specific Prime to be their home, not by choice but why where they were born. Do Githzerai worship in the same sense most mortals do? If so, they'd have to make their way through the planes to their god's realm like any other mortal. I don't know much about the Githzerai and their beliefs, though... and spiritual beliefs are the key with the Outer Planes. My limited understand of the Githzerai is that their origin is considered Limbo and that they don't usually worship any god... so I'd rule that their souls would try to get back to Limbo and re-merge with the plane itself.
The Wall of the Faithless was a punishment devised by Myrkul in order to terrify mortals of the Realms. Why Kelemvor kept the punishment is beyond me, because it's an evil thing to promote worship through fear of torture IMO. I'm not sure if we know what Jergal did or had before the Wall, but Planescape might help here as well...
For True Atheists, who literally don't believe in an afterlife, their souls simply enter oblivion on death and are destroyed permanently.
For those who are Faithless, meaning that they know gods exist but they view them as entities unworthy of worship... or they intentionally choose not to worship (e.g. some of the original Netherese mages in ancient times), their souls would be "lost" (no plane to go to in the afterlife) and their energy would disperse and be reabsorbed... not exactly oblivion, but very close to that. These souls might choose survival by agreeing to be taken by demons or devils, but they might not.
Now... having said all of that... remember that Planescape was written in a weird style that was reminiscent of the unreliable narrator. All this was stated through the voice of a sage (or expert of some kind) who spoke with Sigil-speak slang. So it MIGHT be true, or things could be slightly different. The reality is that as the DM, it's all up to you.
|
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 21 Dec 2013 17:44:07 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 22:08:38
|
| In Spelljammer, even if a cleric's deity was not represented in a sphere, the cleric could still get 1st and 2nd level spells from their deity. This, to me, suggests a low-level connection that pretty much goes anywhere. So I'd say that this connection is strong enough for a deity to reclaim the soul of a follower, no matter how far from home they are. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 22:20:28
|
The technical wording seems important. A soul is not Faithless because (in life) it refused to worship any of the Faerūnian deities, the soul is Faithless because none of these deities chooses (or is able) to claim it.
Travellers who expect to die in Faerūn are warned. Perhaps Gith tourists invest in some form of astral life insurance?
And there are a few alternatives available to Faithless before they get stuffed into the Wall. Of course, they involve various states of accursed undead existence or literal deals with devils, fates which some might still prefer over penultimate oblivion. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Sojo_Radish
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 07:18:13
|
Thank you all, especially Therise. It seems my knowledge(planes) has gained several skill points put.
And about the githzerai, they give me the impression that they are actually fighting against the Limbo and by that keeping their identities even their very selves, thus most of them are of lawful alignments. So I think maybe the group consciousness of the githzerai has already become some certain power that would drag or attract the souls of the dead githzerai back to it (or them). And as the law of the planes is belief, and the giths do have their strong believes that they had already become the planar, they do hold onto some certain existence of faith and faith gives birth to the true afterlives. The problem of the faithless of Faerun is they in fact believe in nothing, even beyond the void of Shar (who still represents certain existence), so their are of no use in the existence of planes. And the giths are not like this. By that if a githzerai dies in realmspace, maybe Kelemvor would directly send him back to where the githzerai group consciousness lies. |
|
|
|
Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 18:15:42
|
Faithless is an interesting word in D&D, not meaning quite the same thing as in real life.
The key is worship, not non-belief. One can know or believe that gods exist, but if someone -denies- the gods worship, that's faithless. True atheism, where one literally believes in no gods (denying they exist, and denying that even an afterlife exists) simply leads to oblivion. Belief being the key, if a soul doesn't believe then it goes *poof* and Kelemvor can't touch it. Nor can any other gods or devils. Such a soul doesn't even get the chance to have a "whoops, I made a mistake" moment because their belief does not sustain their spirit. So true atheists are exceedingly rare - because in the Realms there are examples and reminders of the divine all over the place.
Also, a very simple commoner who essentially worships their pantheon by "lip service" isn't classified as faithless. They may not have a patron deity, but celestial agents who best represent that person's alignment will show up and offer them an afterlife.
Faithless are also somewhat rare, because this involves knowledge that the gods exist but the person is making a specific choice not to worship any of them. This could be out of anger, or stubbornness. So most of the souls in the Wall are the False (those who deeply betray their god and no gods will touch them).
Interestingly, children and infants who die are not classified as faithless. They are picked up by the celestial agents of their parent's deity. Apparently, the belief of their parents is sufficient to carry them over and sustain their tiny souls until they're picked up.
Reading up a bit more on the githzerai, it seems that most do not worship any gods. Some do, but the vast majority do not, and they consider spiritual beliefs deeply personal and private. It's more common to honor a dead relative or hero, but this isn't worship. Since their Prime is Limbo, I'd personally say (and this is my speculation here) that they end up just being absorbed back into the planar energy of Limbo. A very powerful githzerai might manage to have enough spiritual energy in death such that he or she maintains a spiritual form and isn't absorbed, but they'd really have no where else to go... and going anywhere other than limbo would be very dangerous as they'd risk soul-destruction if someone kills their spirit.
I don't think Kelemvor would assist a dead githzerai, though. Most gods, even good ones, usually don't do anything that won't benefit them. And spirits of other Primes and planes literally have nothing to offer a god or celestial agent. Demons and devils might offer "help" of a sort, but the price would be extremely high. Just my personal take here, of course, but I think a githzerai would have to wander the planes trying to find conduits back to limbo, or it would become a lost wanderer rather than choosing to be re-absorbed into the plane.
|
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
|
|
|
Sojo_Radish
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2013 : 04:14:03
|
But in FRCS it states "The Faithless firmly denied any faith or only gave lip service to the gods for most of their lives without truly believing."
We can say the Realmspace has a more strict definition on the faithless due to the nature of how this world runs, to keep the gods being sustained by the petitioners who used to be mortal. Those who refuse to worship and those who only pay lip service are treated the same. What I wonder on this is how Kelemvor "gives the faithless a chance to claim a patron god during the sentence". The soul got sentence because no god want to claim him after all. Maybe as a petitioner one has gone beyond the "lip-service", which is a "mortal" activity, that when he say he would worship someone, he would have no chance to act against the dogma of this god as he is already dead. Or this petitioner has to wait in the Fugue plane to see if his newly chosen patron god would accept him or re-accept him. In the latter case, I think until he got accepted by some god, his label of faithless would still be on him, due to his "lip-service" in life.
And I think what you say about Kelemvor unable to touch is intriguing. And maybe this is where his limitation lies. To the realmspace, maybe Kelemvor administrates the Fugue plane while granting the god of death of other pantheon of mortal and those who are Power in multiverse their own autonomy, that their judgement is before him, and only those who are left are charged by him and treated as a Faerunian faithless. This means if some certain pantheon would treat their own faithless differently, dragging them out of the Fugue plane to some other destiny, Kelemvor would have no say about it. And this might be the route for those mortal fey and magic beast and other non-faerunian-worshipped who got killed on the prime. The giths killed on the prime would follow this route, back to the Astral or the Limbo instead of waiting for Kelemvor's judgement.
And regarding the githzerai in Limbo, still I think they would not be simply absorbed by Limbo, as it would make their very philosophy in vain. It seems to me they want to shape Limbo into order, at least at their citadel, that most of them tend to be lawful. Maybe the dead githzerai become the stones of their citadel, rather than the total chaos of Limbo. |
|
|
|
Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2013 : 04:56:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by Sojo_Radish
But in FRCS it states "The Faithless firmly denied any faith or only gave lip service to the gods for most of their lives without truly believing."
Ultimately, I think this comes down to the fact that different scribes, and even different novel authors, will have a slightly different take on this. Canon is something to be interpreted in the game, though many would say that it's "truth".
So when it comes to how I'd interpret this statement, I try to think of possible examples. In the past, Ed has told us that farmers and commoners, backwoodsmen and the like who aren't very sophisticated like city folk, may only do what's called "lip service" to the gods. Perhaps they make a sign against "evil eye" magic and invoke some god's name, maybe they ask Umberlee to spare them from harsh seas or Auril to go easy on them for winter. But that's the extent, perhaps, of their "worship" so it's lip service.
Compare this with one of the old mages of Netheril who firmly believed that the gods were all just powerful entities, like the difference between a low-level spellcaster and an archmage. This mage of old Netheril never once gave lip service to any god, and perhaps even felt that if they studied enough magic they'd become like these so-called gods. Many modern archmages or stubborn, arrogant people, might have the same viewpoint and deny worship of the gods.
Then, examine the purpose of the Wall of the Faithless. It's essentially meant to instill fear of torture for not worshiping any gods. Myrkul wanted something to terrorize people and make them fear death, and torture souls that denied the reality of the gods.
That simple backwoodsmen, he doesn't really deserve torture for being simple in his polytheistic faith. But arguably, the well-educated archmage is simply being arrogant and impudent in his denial, perhaps worthy of punishment. That backwoodsman, he might call out to one of the gods and be answered, but the archmage likely would not because his belief is wrapped up firmly in arrogance.
Again, though, all of this is entirely up to you as the Dungeon Master. Material, even canon material, is there for you to interpret.
quote:
We can say the Realmspace has a more strict definition on the faithless due to the nature of how this world runs, to keep the gods being sustained by the petitioners who used to be mortal.
Perhaps, but Salvatore's novels are slightly more loose with the afterlife than other novels. Plus, there are things in Planescape manuals that are older than the current FRCG books. Squaring everything in different rulebooks, while also considering what Ed has told us, can be quite challenging. And Ed is always in favor of the "unreliable narrator" meaning that what a sage says in Cormyr is just as much of a belief (not necessarily a fact) as what a different sage says in Waterdeep.
|
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
|
|
|
Sojo_Radish
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2013 : 05:31:39
|
That maybe the reason why someone would call the Wall of the Faithless cruel and unjust. However it really suits Myrkul well. Considering Bane had returned and at least one part of the essence of Myrkul still in the realm, maybe the Wall could be where the returning of Myrkul in future needs that even Kelemvor himself not yet to understand.
Recently I played motb where the nature of the wall is interpreted, and the wall follows the cruel Myrkulish path to the end. Luckily the game is not canon and the nature of the wall could be different in other cases (in fact some plot in the game seems really nonsense). As you say, each DM has his own ultimate decision on which interpret to use, and each Kelemvor could act differently on such cases.
Thank you for all the interprets:) |
|
|
|
Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2013 : 05:43:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by Sojo_Radish
That maybe the reason why someone would call the Wall of the Faithless cruel and unjust. However it really suits Myrkul well. Considering Bane had returned and at least one part of the essence of Myrkul still in the realm, maybe the Wall could be where the returning of Myrkul in future needs that even Kelemvor himself not yet to understand.
Recently I played motb where the nature of the wall is interpreted, and the wall follows the cruel Myrkulish path to the end. Luckily the game is not canon and the nature of the wall could be different in other cases (in fact some plot in the game seems really nonsense). As you say, each DM has his own ultimate decision on which interpret to use, and each Kelemvor could act differently on such cases.
Thank you for all the interprets:)
You know, that's a rather interesting idea and might explain why Kelemvor kept the Wall.
It's always puzzled me that Kelemvor would keep something in his domain that was so inherently evil. After all, Kel was all about trying to make things fair and even take the fright out of death. In the novels, for a very brief period of time, Kel even made death seem comfortable and nice, and so mortals were essentially throwing their lives away too easily.
But this is a very interesting concept. I've always preferred Myrkul as the god of the dead, not only because he was evil but because he and his priests could so easily be used in a variety of evil ways. Necromancy, having people fear death, Myrkul just seems better, craftier, and you can do so many terrible, frightful things with him.
Anyway... if Myrkul's Wall of the Faithless is something that -can't- be removed, and Kelemvor doesn't know why, boy oh boy is that interesting and definitely a good lead-in for Myrkul to come back. Much of Myrkul's personality and a shard of his power is tied up in the artifact called the Crown of Horns. But what if some evil necromancer managed to bring the Crown into the vicinity of the Wall?
Perhaps Myrkul has been siphoning off soul energy as a main function of this Wall. If so, it could very well be a "back pocket" method of not only scaring mortals and torturing souls, it could be a slowly-building source of power that he can tap. It makes a lot of sense. Bhaal returns through murder, Bane returns by usurping power and control from his son, and the god of the dead returns by harvesting faithless souls of the dead.
I love this. It's delightfully evil and VERY Myrkul.  
|
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
|
|
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2013 : 06:16:30
|
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Sojo_Radish
That maybe the reason why someone would call the Wall of the Faithless cruel and unjust. However it really suits Myrkul well. Considering Bane had returned and at least one part of the essence of Myrkul still in the realm, maybe the Wall could be where the returning of Myrkul in future needs that even Kelemvor himself not yet to understand.
Recently I played motb where the nature of the wall is interpreted, and the wall follows the cruel Myrkulish path to the end. Luckily the game is not canon and the nature of the wall could be different in other cases (in fact some plot in the game seems really nonsense). As you say, each DM has his own ultimate decision on which interpret to use, and each Kelemvor could act differently on such cases.
Thank you for all the interprets:)
You know, that's a rather interesting idea and might explain why Kelemvor kept the Wall.
It's always puzzled me that Kelemvor would keep something in his domain that was so inherently evil. After all, Kel was all about trying to make things fair and even take the fright out of death. In the novels, for a very brief period of time, Kel even made death seem comfortable and nice, and so mortals were essentially throwing their lives away too easily.
But this is a very interesting concept. I've always preferred Myrkul as the god of the dead, not only because he was evil but because he and his priests could so easily be used in a variety of evil ways. Necromancy, having people fear death, Myrkul just seems better, craftier, and you can do so many terrible, frightful things with him.
Anyway... if Myrkul's Wall of the Faithless is something that -can't- be removed, and Kelemvor doesn't know why, boy oh boy is that interesting and definitely a good lead-in for Myrkul to come back. Much of Myrkul's personality and a shard of his power is tied up in the artifact called the Crown of Horns. But what if some evil necromancer managed to bring the Crown into the vicinity of the Wall?
Perhaps Myrkul has been siphoning off soul energy as a main function of this Wall. If so, it could very well be a "back pocket" method of not only scaring mortals and torturing souls, it could be a slowly-building source of power that he can tap. It makes a lot of sense. Bhaal returns through murder, Bane returns by usurping power and control from his son, and the god of the dead returns by harvesting faithless souls of the dead.
I love this. It's delightfully evil and VERY Myrkul.
The thing about the Wall is that the gods actually accepted the Wall even the gods of good because even they did not want mortals to be faithless and that they must have some sort of faith. Its one of the reasons why all the gods of Realmspace don't want to destroy the Wall. It serves as a reminder that when you die not worshiping some Power, you suffer the consequences.
Myrkul created something that truly endured even him, and if more knew who created it, that would be enough to stoke the embers of his existence |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
|
|
|
Sojo_Radish
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2013 : 11:55:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
The thing about the Wall is that the gods actually accepted the Wall even the gods of good because even they did not want mortals to be faithless and that they must have some sort of faith. Its one of the reasons why all the gods of Realmspace don't want to destroy the Wall. It serves as a reminder that when you die not worshiping some Power, you suffer the consequences.
Myrkul created something that truly endured even him, and if more knew who created it, that would be enough to stoke the embers of his existence
That is the reason I asked earlier whether any information about the faithless predated Myrkul is available. It just feels strange that for that long Kelemvor was stuck in the mechanism of the Wall instead of providing a new method that surpasses that of Myrkul. His own attemps were foolish, that is true, and he's just not the too much scheming type, but it seems Jergal never gave him any insight.
However maybe Jergal is just satisfied with the current situation. I haven't read the novel but maybe it was him appreciating Myrkul's harsh, evil but effective way and he would have no problem with Myrkul's evil, and without his help Kelemvor had to stick to the Wall. Just note it seems reasonable that Myrkul became the god of dead after Karsus' Foolish. Maybe Jergal was just too shocked by Karsus' Foolish, and to him that is certainly a much greater greater evil that must be prevented, while his old method failed to do so.
Kelemvor is nether creative nor intelligent enough, but it is easy to keep him a good boy and have the duty done. Myrkul sometimes went too wild, the last time of which led to chaos and his own death. I bet Jergal would welcome the return of a lawful evil Myrkul, a better version of Jergal's old self.
In fact, how can we expect Myrkul being forgotten only after a hundred years, as an important diety as him? Many would still remember the time when Myrkul lived and even walked among mortal, and there's no race/subrace who recognize Myrkul wiping out this time. |
Edited by - Sojo_Radish on 23 Dec 2013 12:12:40 |
|
|
|
Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2013 : 19:17:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
...The thing about the Wall is that the gods actually accepted the Wall even the gods of good because even they did not want mortals to be faithless and that they must have some sort of faith. Its one of the reasons why all the gods of Realmspace don't want to destroy the Wall. It serves as a reminder that when you die not worshiping some Power, you suffer the consequences.
Myrkul created something that truly endured even him, and if more knew who created it, that would be enough to stoke the embers of his existence
I know that we have certainly speculated on this site about the other gods being "accepting" of the Wall of the Faithless, but I'm not really aware of anything that says this in the general canon or Ed-lore. I'm pretty sure we don't know what the other gods think about the Wall - other than the fact that Kelemvor kept it.
If there's a source out there with other gods commenting on the Wall as being wanted or a good thing, I'm not aware of it. But if there is, I'd love to know about it. (One of the novels, maybe? I haven't read all of them).
I think it's entirely possible that Kelemvor either decided to keep it for his own reasons... or it's possible that Kelemvor couldn't actually get rid of it.
|
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2013 : 00:25:01
|
Im not sure if the Faerunian pantheon (aside from Myrkul/Cyric/Kelemvor) really have any actual power to express any opinion (or obhections) about the Wall. The Dead, the Faithless, and the Fugue Plane in general are simply not within their dominion, these are absolutely governed by the Faerunian god of Death. Perhaps the other deities appeal to Myrkul/Kelemvor/etc on a case-by-case basis for individual souls of particular interest.
Many deities in the pantheon represent philosophies or components of the world which are in natural opposition to those of other deities, yet although they may wage eternal conflict they do have not demonstrated the ability to eternally reject or alter things which fall outside their own station and portfolios. The only methods for a deity to directly impose his will upon another have (so far) been through some sort of commandment from Ao, some sort of divine compact/alliance, or through direct assumption of power by means of deicide. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Sojo_Radish
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2014 : 22:29:48
|
Sorry if I have put a scroll too old out. But when roaming in the other contents I have encountered the following qoutes from the novel, which may explain why the Wall is especially nessesary after the Time of Troubles(from [url=http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17850]here[/url])
quote:
"Lord Ao!" Helm acknowledged, bowing his head in supplication.
"Bring me the Tablets of Fate," Ao commanded.
Helm opened the saddlebags and removed the tablets. In the god's mighty hands, the two stones looked small, almost insignificant. Helm took the tablets to Ao then kneeled on the stairway to await further commands.
Ao studied the tablets for several minutes. In a hundred places throughout the Realms, the avatars of the surviving gods fell into a deep trance as Ao summoned their attention.
"On these artifacts," the overlord said, sending his voice and image to all of his gods. "I have recorded the forces that balance Law and Chaos."
"And I have returned them to you," Cyric said, daring to meet Ao's gaze.
Ao looked at the thief without approval or disapproval. "Yes," he said, stacking the tablets together. "And here is what it amounts to!" The overlord of the gods crushed the tablets in his hands and ground them into dust.
Midnight cringed, expecting the heavens to come crashing down. Adon cried out in grief and astonishment. Cyric watched the dust fall from between Ao's fingers, an angry frown creeping down his face.
Helm jumped to his feet. "Master, what have you done?" the god asked, his voice betraying his fear.
"The tablets mean nothing," Ao said, addressing all of his gods, no matter where they were. "I kept them to remind you that I created gods to serve the Balance, not to twist it to your own ends. But this point was lost on you. You saw the tablets as a set of rules by which to play juvenile games of prestige and pomp! Then, when the rules became inconvenient you stole them..."
"But that was -," Helm began.
"I know who took the Tablets of Fate," Ao replied, silencing Helm with a curt wave of his hand. "Bane and Myrkul have paid for their offenses with their lives. But all of you were guilty, causing worshipers to build wasteful temples, to devote themselves so slavishly to your name that they could not feed their children, even to spill their own blood upon your corrupt altars - all so you could impress each other with your hold over these so-called inferior creatures. Your behavior is enough to make me wish I had never created you."
Ao paused and let his listeners consider his words. Finally, he resumed speaking. "But I did create you and not without purpose. Now, I am going to demand that you fulfill that purpose. From this day forward, your true power will depend upon the number and devotion of your followers."
From one end of the Realms to another, the gods gasped in astonishment. In far off Tsurlagoi, Talos the Raging One growled, "Depend on mortals?" The one good eye of his youthful, broad-shouldered avatar was opened with outrage and shock.
"Depend on them and more," Ao returned. "Without worshipers, you will wither, even perish entirely. And after what has passed in the Realms, it will not be easy to win the faith of mortals. You will have to earn it by serving them."
In sunny Tesiir, a beautiful woman with silky scarlet hair and fiery red-brown eyes looked as though she were going to retch. "Serve them?" Sune asked.
"I have spoken!" Ao replied.
I've bolded the contents that has interested me. It is true that the deities after the Time of Troubles need the Wall to sustain themselves, but they just didn't need it, or so gravely depend on it before the Time of Troubles. Ao changed the rule about how gods and the worship to them play in the realmspace, and the consequence is right before us. It had really put Kelemvor into some critical role within the realmspace, and his responsibility IS new, as Jergal would not give a damn on keeping his fellow deities fed. It was just none of Jergal business. And now only Kelemvor has the basic life insurance that keep the gods from starving to death. The Wall.
However I've also noticed that Ao's intention is to make the gods in the realmspace "to serve the mortal to earn their worship", and I won't simply call the Wall an establishment of "serving". I mean, how could "dissolving the claimless souls into some mysteries that even gods are yet to know" be serving the mortal, rather than serving the gods themselves? The logic here is "Serving gods leads to serving mortal", but I just cannot get rid of the impression that it is just the result from laziness, out of wit, or pure desperation. And the Wall never prevented some self-destructive madness from certain god themselves, which is their own fault, just similar as how the Time of Troubles began. This means the deities in the realmspace never truly learnt their lessons, despite of Ao's wishes, and the Wall is one of the evidence of it.
I do wonder how the Sundering of 5E would change the realmspace. Maybe then the gods would be mature enough and only then would they indeed need the Wall no longer. |
Edited by - Sojo_Radish on 06 Jan 2014 22:36:19 |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2014 : 20:53:52
|
According to Ed's Forgotten Realms book that came out last year, when a mortal dies, even if they didn't directly worship a deity, most Faeraunians acknowledge the gods' existence, and when they die, their soul will be taken in by the god who best fits their ideology. A loose example would be a guardsman who secretly has a love of gardening and nature. He might be taken in by Chauntea instead of Helm or Torm. That's a rough example, but there you go.
Most elves, whether they directly worship the Seldarine or not, go to Arvandor when they die, unless they specifically worship a deity outside that pantheon. Most dwarves will go to the Halls of Moradin. I think for most demi-humans (elves, halflings, dwarves, etc), they will go to the realms of their respective pantheon, unless they specifically worshiped a deity outside that pantheon. The Wall is reserved for those who truly defy all the gods or essentially flip them the middle finger. That, at least, is my understanding, and I've been interested in the fate of the souls in FR, so I've looked into it. Hope that helps, though many have already provided you with plenty of info. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 00:01:45
|
The focus on worshipping one patron god and the harsh penalty if you don't were parts of a sort of crypto-monotheism that came into some sources for a while. Ed wrote here back in 2004 that 'Only those who repudiate the gods (or who as a result of their actions are renounced by their gods), despoil altars and frustrate clerical aims (of any deity, not just "foe" deities), or never pray or engage in any form of deliberate worship will qualify as either faithless or false.' This clarification was published in Elminster's Forgotten Realms eight years later, along with a lot of other Candlekeep lore.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
In the past, Ed has told us that farmers and commoners, backwoodsmen and the like who aren't very sophisticated like city folk, may only do what's called "lip service" to the gods. Perhaps they make a sign against "evil eye" magic and invoke some god's name, maybe they ask Umberlee to spare them from harsh seas or Auril to go easy on them for winter. But that's the extent, perhaps, of their "worship" so it's lip service.
This isn't lip service. The point of lip service is that it's insincere: you're just mouthing the words. A Faerūnian's circumstantial prayers to various gods are genuine polytheistic worship.
(Quel déją-vu!) |
|
|
|
Sojo_Radish
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 00:37:36
|
Thank you both for the knowledge.
Yet if so, I wonder where is the destination for those, for example, evil surface elves who are not the followers of some evil deities. I just don't think they would still go to Arvandor which is still a mild-good plane. The Eldreth Veluuthra for example. These elves believe one day Corellon would see them right. Are these elves paying lip-service to the Seldarine? |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 04:22:00
|
| That is a good question. I would think it would be depend on the circumstances and individual elf. If an elf is truly "evil", then no, he probably wouldn't be allowed in Arvandor. The majority of elves aren't flippant towards the Seldarine, and pay more than lip service to the pantheon. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Sojo_Radish
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 05:12:19
|
This would mean these evil elves are rejected by the whole Seldarine by default, or at least by those in Arvandor. I don't know if any member of the Seldarine still hold other pocket planes outside Arvandor, like Fenmarel's old residence in Limbo. In fact I think Fenmarel is one of the perfect candidates who could recieve these elves, as they are true "outcast" of the whole race.
However, as you say, a human guardsman who is not an obvious devotee is accepted by Chauntea rather than Helm. If this is the case, would the evil elves rejected by the Seldarine automaticly be pulled into the anti-Seldarine, as both are within the Elven pantheon? Or other great evil deity as Shar would claim them? Or they are just automaticly abandoned in Fugue and could only rely on the devil and the demon? |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 05:19:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by Sojo_Radish
Thank you both for the knowledge.
Yet if so, I wonder where is the destination for those, for example, evil surface elves who are not the followers of some evil deities. I just don't think they would still go to Arvandor which is still a mild-good plane. The Eldreth Veluuthra for example. These elves believe one day Corellon would see them right. Are these elves paying lip-service to the Seldarine?
In this case, I'd use Kymil Nimesin as my example... He wasn't a member of the Eldreth Veluuthra, but he'd've gotten along with them. He thought he was working to the betterment of all elves, and was most surprised when Lolth dropped in to see him one day. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 05:27:04
|
| I'd always assumed that elves automatically went to Arvandor unless they specifically worshiped a deity outside the pantheon. For example, during the Crown Wars, many elves did what could be considered "evil", but I don't think they were forbidden to enter Arvandor. Some things cease to be of importance in death. Like, say one elf wronged another in some way. When they meet again in Arvandor, the deed may cease to matter, no matter how big of a thing it was in life. In order to be completely rejected by the Seldarine, an elf would have to be truly evil, in which case, they would probably worship a deity outside the Seldarine, anyway (such as Shar). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Sojo_Radish
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 05:30:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Sojo_Radish
Thank you both for the knowledge.
Yet if so, I wonder where is the destination for those, for example, evil surface elves who are not the followers of some evil deities. I just don't think they would still go to Arvandor which is still a mild-good plane. The Eldreth Veluuthra for example. These elves believe one day Corellon would see them right. Are these elves paying lip-service to the Seldarine?
In this case, I'd use Kymil Nimesin as my example... He wasn't a member of the Eldreth Veluuthra, but he'd've gotten along with them. He thought he was working to the betterment of all elves, and was most surprised when Lolth dropped in to see him one day.
But he's not dead yet, right?
Lolth would go to seduce any living candidate into her service in order to get their souls, but according to the discussion above she seems lack of the ability to put a finger on the evil souls in Fugue plane who don't worship her, unless these elves abandoned by the Seldarine would go to her after death automaticly.
If so, maybe I'm starting to understand why any demi-human panthon need some evil member within, just to avoiding any soul leakage |
|
|
|
Sojo_Radish
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 05:36:15
|
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I'd always assumed that elves automatically went to Arvandor unless they specifically worshiped a deity outside the pantheon. For example, during the Crown Wars, many elves did what could be considered "evil", but I don't think they were forbidden to enter Arvandor. Some things cease to be of importance in death. Like, say one elf wronged another in some way. When they meet again in Arvandor, the deed may cease to matter, no matter how big of a thing it was in life. In order to be completely rejected by the Seldarine, an elf would have to be truly evil, in which case, they would probably worship a deity outside the Seldarine, anyway (such as Shar).
Like the Vyshaan?
Or, if the Vyshaanti survivors had already consciously turned to devils or demons, there would be no further questions. But if they're still thinking one day the Seldarine would know their mistakes in punishing them, and refuse to worship any other gods, things would go mess. |
Edited by - Sojo_Radish on 11 Jan 2014 05:39:08 |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 05:49:20
|
I'd always assumed the Vyshaan ended up in Arvandor *shrugs*
I think a god can tell what is in mortal's heart, so even if an elf has done some things that could be considered evil, unless that elf truly is evil, they wind up in Arvandor. This would apply to the Vyshaan. Kymil thought he was working in his race's best interests, but really it was to serve his own dark ends. However, elves such as Elaith, twisted though he may be, has a sense of honor, even if it is a little skewed. I think he is destined for Arvandor.
And it's not just the elves. With the demi-human races, such as dwarves and halflings, unless a dwarf truly defies everything it means to be a dwarf and becomes evil, or the dwarf worships a deity outside the dwarvan pantheon, their soul goes to the Halls of Moradin (or Dwarfhome. I forgot exactly what the realm is called).
It gets more varied with humans because the "human pantheon", if you will, is larger than all the other pantheons. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Sojo_Radish
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 06:11:25
|
IIRC Elaith is to begin his redemption through his daughter.
And I don't know if the petitioners could redeem or not.
So, any elf who is not for the anti-Seldarine would be allowed in Arvandor, and all his doing in life, even if damaging his people so greatly, would be forgiven by the Seldarine, unless he has clearly chosen another god from other pantheon.
I'm beginning to understand why Lolth is working so hard. It is she who has to earn her souls, stopping them from reaching Arvandor.
It would make the alignment in life seem a little nonsense. But maybe this is some feature of demi-human, who are not the very same as human. Anyway human deverse much more greatly than demi-human, as all demi-human seem to at least have some racial level tendency toward certain alignment, though some individual would varies. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Question about the faithless and the planar mortal
