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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Sep 2013 : 05:56:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It's no secret I'm not big on dragons and everything in between, so I'd be happy if the redundant race of dragonborn gets erased from the face of Toril. The only time I managed to "tolerate" (to some degree) their existence was when Richard wrote about them.
I love dragons, but have never used one in my games (not even as 'backdrop'). I just think they are so unbelievably 'overkill'. As if a 50-ton, armored, fire-breathing reptile wasn't enough, its also a super-genius and can cast spells... WTH? 
Because stomping on/burning/tail-lashing/clawing in two/biting head off isn't enough? They have to be able to speak (to make fun of you) and cast magic (probably to keep you alive longer - god knows they don't need to cast destructive spells).
Just NO. If I want to kill my players characters, I can do it with a pixie... or a teacup. I don't need to 'Michael Bay' the entire countryside to do it. Draco-liches and the Terrasque are just worse versions of that (because some DMs don't know how to obliterate a party of 30th level characters with a dragon.. or pixie).
So I do love dragons (in movies and books), but wouldn't use one (unless it was the finale of a very long campaign, like in The Hobbit). The way I have always run it IMGs is that there are 'dragons', which are just very large, powerful (and rare) reptiles, and then there are 'legendary' Dragons - the ones folklore tells us can speak and do magic. No-one ever meets those - people assume they died out centuries ago (which may or may not be true). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Sep 2013 05:58:30 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2013 : 06:43:49
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oh come on already with the dragonborn boobs.
dragons are not lizards they are reptilian but not lizards. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2013 : 18:22:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It's no secret I'm not big on dragons and everything in between, so I'd be happy if the redundant race of dragonborn gets erased from the face of Toril. The only time I managed to "tolerate" (to some degree) their existence was when Richard wrote about them.
I love dragons, but have never used one in my games (not even as 'backdrop'). I just think they are so unbelievably 'overkill'. As if a 50-ton, armored, fire-breathing reptile wasn't enough, its also a super-genius and can cast spells... WTH?
Because stomping on/burning/tail-lashing/clawing in two/biting head off isn't enough? They have to be able to speak (to make fun of you) and cast magic (probably to keep you alive longer - god knows they don't need to cast destructive spells).
I have no problem with them being able to cast spells. And they're hardly the biggest fish in the pond. Besides, some powerful human wizards are able to beat and even control them. Remember Malygris? And remember, one upon a time, it just took one mad, powerful lich to control and literally make almost all of dragonkind insane.
It's the dragons themselves that I don't like. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2013 : 19:23:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It's no secret I'm not big on dragons and everything in between, so I'd be happy if the redundant race of dragonborn gets erased from the face of Toril. The only time I managed to "tolerate" (to some degree) their existence was when Richard wrote about them.
I love dragons, but have never used one in my games (not even as 'backdrop'). I just think they are so unbelievably 'overkill'. As if a 50-ton, armored, fire-breathing reptile wasn't enough, its also a super-genius and can cast spells... WTH?
Because stomping on/burning/tail-lashing/clawing in two/biting head off isn't enough? They have to be able to speak (to make fun of you) and cast magic (probably to keep you alive longer - god knows they don't need to cast destructive spells).
I have no problem with them being able to cast spells. And they're hardly the biggest fish in the pond. Besides, some powerful human wizards are able to beat and even control them. Remember Malygris? And remember, one upon a time, it just took one mad, powerful lich to control and literally make almost all of dragonkind insane.
It's the dragons themselves that I don't like.
I'd say Dragons are pretty much the biggest in the pond , as a non outsider race. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2013 : 22:59:56
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If played correctly, dragons should indeed be the biggest fish in the pond. They have the size, breath, and natural armor to be as physically imposing as any fighter, monk, or paladin. They are natural sorcerors with high intelligence, and thus have the capacity to be dangerous spellcasters. With all the treasures they amass, most dragons probably have all the tricks up their sleeve of a capable rogue. Combine that with an extremely long life span and a strong compulsion to dominate (or at least manipulate) everything around them, and you have creatures who are always dangerous.
And Dennis, in referring to Sammaster, you must recall that he was a demigod. Not just an archmage, but one granted a portion of Mystra's divinity. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2013 : 00:52:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
And Dennis, in referring to Sammaster, you must recall that he was a demigod. Not just an archmage, but one granted a portion of Mystra's divinity.
He was a Chosen, not a deity. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2013 : 09:51:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
And Dennis, in referring to Sammaster, you must recall that he was a demigod. Not just an archmage, but one granted a portion of Mystra's divinity.
He was a Chosen, not a deity.
Wasn't his Silver Fire sucked out of him when i was killed/disabled after a spell battle with Alustriel and other 2 Chosens (i think Laeral and Khelben but i'm unsure)?
During the whole Sammaster Dracorage thing he was mad, he was a lich, he was a very accomplished archmage and necromancer, but his Chosen status was just a pale shadow of the power the other Chosen wield. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2013 : 12:55:28
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| Yup, Sammy was killed and Auzth took back the silver fire. But his Banite friend tossed a spell that brought him back, and it captured some lingering effect of the silver fire, leaving Sammy immortal. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2013 : 13:00:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
If played correctly, dragons should indeed be the biggest fish in the pond. They have the size, breath, and natural armor to be as physically imposing as any fighter, monk, or paladin. They are natural sorcerors with high intelligence, and thus have the capacity to be dangerous spellcasters. With all the treasures they amass, most dragons probably have all the tricks up their sleeve of a capable rogue. Combine that with an extremely long life span and a strong compulsion to dominate (or at least manipulate) everything around them, and you have creatures who are always dangerous.
Should, maybe, but not in actuality. And we have a couple of examples in novels that drive that point (and novels are canon). Rivalen once fought a green and drove it away. Granted, he used the full power of Sakkors' mythallar to aid him, but then, any accomplished Netherese could do that, and if dragons are the biggest in the pond, deflecting or quashing that highly concentrated arcane energy should have been easy, don't you think? And there's the dracolich Malygris who is in Telamont's control. But yes, it's been revealed that the Most High is now an outsider, so that's probably an exception.
There's also Tchzzar, a very powerful red, so powerful he had the audacity to call himself god. It was a mere human (elemental) mage (Jhesri) that siphoned him of all his fire, leaving an empty shell.
There's also Alasklerbanbastos, the Great Bone Wyrm of the East. It was the concentrated effort of the priests of several sects, led by Cera, that destroyed his second "physical" form.
And remember the shadow dragon Furlinastis? One would assume a thousand shadow wraiths should have been easy for him to devour. But no, he's been consumed instead.
Toward the end of Unclean, Szass Tam said, "At the risk of sounding immodest, I'm . . . formidable. When I kill with my own hands, the victim tends to be a fellow archmage, a demigod, or a whole army. Anything less is scarcely worth the bother." Which suggests that even a dragon would think twice to fight him head on. And given what he has accomplished prior and during the series, there's hardly any room for doubt.
And oh, must we forget Larloch? He pretty much made a dragon his pack animal when he escaped Netheril's fall. And in his present condition, I would a pity a dragon foolish enough to try to pester him--that is, if it can even manage to get past his sixty-plus lich-servitors.
I know it's pretty obvious I'm partial to wizards--but that's for good reasons.
quote:
And Dennis, in referring to Sammaster, you must recall that he was a demigod. Not just an archmage, but one granted a portion of Mystra's divinity.
Ah, no, he is and never was a demigod. He was once a Chosen, but do recall also that the Year of Rogue Dragons (the example I was alluding to in my reply to Mark) happened way after he got killed in his battle against Alustriel and got stripped of his rank as a Chosen of Mystra. So he was plain powerful archmage during the YoRD. Granted he had the help of ancient elven magic to put dragonkind into incurable madness, but it was he who reactivated the Dracorage mythal, and it was he who used his own phylactery to act as a conduit that allowed the energies from the negative planes to power the mythal. So much of the credit belonged to him. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2013 : 18:11:36
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Two different conversations are being had here.
In a D&D game, set in the Realms or otherwise, yes, dragons are top dogs. In 3E Dragons CR values were deliberately underrated just so they would be that severe of an encounter.
In the novels the needs of the story will come first.
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Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2013 : 19:37:10
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Good points Dennis, but you must understand that wizards of a certain level are basically demigods. In one of the excerpts from Godborn, Telamont nearly comes to blows with Rivalen (who is now a demigod). Telamont thinks to himself that he can hurt Rivalen for sure, but probably can't kill him. Your own quote shows that Szass Tam has killed at least 1 demigod in the past. So while the most powerful wizards can surpass dragons in power, they are semi-divine by that point (in power, if not in name). Larloch is certainly at a demigod in raw power, and probably more dangerous than any demigod, given his intricate understanding of magic and his hordes of powerful minions.
To Dennis and Wooly, I stand corrected on Sammaster. I was unaware of his power downgrade before the Year of Rogue Dragons novels.
As for the references to the Brotherhood of the Griffon novels, I haven't read those yet (to my shame, after hearing excellent reviews). But I'm familiar with Tchzzar, and whatever mage killed him must have been fantastically powerful. With the Great Bone Wyrm of the East, it sounds like it took a few dozen priests to destroy him. As we've seen before, enough enemies can take anybody out, even if the enemies aren't high level.
Also, with priests, we never know just how much power they are receiving. For example, have you read the Shadowbane books? For most of them, the main character isn't very powerful. He's skilled and tough, with typical paladin powers, but he gets his butt kicked several times. However, at the end of the 2nd book, Helm (his god) basically flows through him fully, allowing him to slay hundreds of demons. At another point in the story, he loses all his paladin powers. So how tough of an opponent Shadowbane is becomes impossible to say. With no powers, a guy like Drizzt would butcher him. With Helm using Shadowbane as his avatar, he could take out a flight of dragons.
One final note on Cera. I looked her up and saw that she's a priestess of Amaunator. Lathander's priests have always been given a major stage to shine on in FR. I remember a priest of Lathander easily destroying that giant, superpowered wereshark in the Threat from the Sea trilogy. Amaunator's priests also help defeat the demigod Kesson Rel in Twilight War trilogy. If only my beloved Selune got that much attention. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2013 : 19:45:59
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A few more, Dennis. Rivalen Tanthul is an archmage and Chosen of Shar. His powers were nasty even before he gained that sliver of godhood. The fact that he had to call upon the powers of a mythallar to defeat that green dragon says a lot about how powerful dragons are. I wonder if Kemp plans to revive that subplot about the Cult of the Dragon seeking revenge on Shade.
Also, Furlinastis was doing great. He was badly wounded by Kesson Rel (the demigod) before being attacked by that army of shadow wraiths. Actually, recalling all that was necessary to destroy Kesson Rel, I'm not sure I like the idea that Szass Tam could single handedly defeat a demigod. Of course, I was never fond of him summoning Bane's avatar and forcing him to remain there.
Finally, Malygris was the undead blue dragon from Return of the Archwizards, if I remember correctly. It didn't make sense to me how he completely dominated and enslaved Malygris with his gaze alone. He was just suddenly capable of doing that at the conclusion of the trilogy, with no explanation. He's never shown such powers in Kemp's books either. |
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Drustan Dwnhaedan
Learned Scribe
USA
324 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2013 : 07:04:54
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| This thread seems to have gone a wee bit off topic. -__-' |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 06:54:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
Good points Dennis, but you must understand that wizards of a certain level are basically demigods.
That's like saying dragons are iguanas with quasi-divine powers. To paraphrase the Piper from Magician's End, it's all a matter of perspective.
Just because some wizards are as powerful as (or more powerful than) demigods doesn't make them demigods. Similarly, just because some dragons breathe fire doesn't mean they're disciples of Kossuth.
So again, given that wizards at a certain level can swat dragons like flies makes it clear to me that the bloated lizards are hardly the biggest fish in the pond. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 29 Sep 2013 06:56:20 |
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Drustan Dwnhaedan
Learned Scribe
USA
324 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 07:59:50
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So what happens if a dragon begins gaining levels as a wizard?
EDIT: And I just realized that only applies to my dad's homebrew (dragons in human or humanoid form had to have character class levels), and not to FR. Sorry. |
Edited by - Drustan Dwnhaedan on 29 Sep 2013 08:08:10 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 14:40:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Drustan Dwnhaedan
So what happens if a dragon begins gaining levels as a wizard?
EDIT: And I just realized that only applies to my dad's homebrew (dragons in human or humanoid form had to have character class levels), and not to FR. Sorry.
We have dragons in the Realms that have wizard levels -- just look at the Wyrms of the North articles. Some of those dragons have levels in wizard, some in sorcerer. The Council of Wyrms boxed set in 2E also gave the option for dragons to advance as wizards or clerics, and there are similar options in the 3E Draconomicon. |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 16:36:29
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| I can live with the Dragonborn as long as the elves as the elves go back to normal. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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KacyCrawford
Acolyte
USA
41 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2013 : 12:34:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Not a big fan of Dragonborn, never used and maybe will never have them in my Realms. Too much like Dragon-kin, which I intend to use sparingly, as supporters of my Cult of the Dragon villains. I understand those who like them, but dragonborn are an "Abeiration" to me. 
I'm not a big fan of Dragonborn either. |
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Neo2151
Learned Scribe
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2013 : 16:24:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Just rename, please, that's all I'm asking, WotC...
I totally agree. I think we should call them "Saurials," stick them in the Kara-Tur and the Lost Vale, and be done with it. |
"Come looking for me, and I will blast you to dust, and then lay waste to all your descendants, ancestors, and the realm you came from, every last tree and stone of it. Why? Well, it's what I usually do."
-Baerendra Riverhand on The Story of Spellfire |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2013 : 17:03:02
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I'm thinking they should be replaced by the Wyvernborn. Why should they settle for just breath weapons, when they can also have spikey or poisonous tails?
ALSO, Elves' ears should be longer come 5e - like 3' long at least. Halflings should be BIGGER - I'm thinking 7-8' tall. Gnomes noses should get so big they drag on the ground. Dwarves should be wide as a football field. No (self-respecting) fighter should go around with a weapon not at least twice his size. Tiefling Horns should weigh about 4000 lbs and have their own gravity...
etc, etc, etc...
Screw D&Dn... I want D&DX(treme)!!! |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Oct 2013 17:05:36 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2013 : 22:06:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
ALSO, Elves' ears should be longer come 5e - like 3' long at least. Halflings should be BIGGER - I'm thinking 7-8' tall. Gnomes noses should get so big they drag on the ground. Dwarves should be wide as a football field. No (self-respecting) fighter should go around with a weapon not at least twice his size. Tiefling Horns should weigh about 4000 lbs and have their own gravity...
Someone's been playing World of Warcraft again. 
Do we need another professional intervention?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Drustan Dwnhaedan
Learned Scribe
USA
324 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2013 : 08:06:17
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| Uh, I think Markustay is just being sarcastic again.(At least, I hope he is.) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2013 : 12:48:23
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Whaaaa? ME? Sarcastic? Nevaaaaaaaa...
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2013 : 06:41:13
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| I'm not concerned with the dragonborn one way or the other really. The realms are a big place and there is a lot of room for them. I would say that the debate about how powerful dragons are is funny. Dragons are part of the backbone of the game "Dungeons & Dragons" precisely because they can be weak enough for low level chars or more powerful that the toughest high level chars. I would say that most times when campaigns get into hack and slash mode, DMs often do not play them to their full abilities - because doing so is not easy. A dragon played to its full potential is an ancient, patient adversary that is physically powerful and extremely intelligent. They have magic (both spells and abilities) - and some cast spells on a level with archmages as well as resources characters cannot match in terms of finance and influence. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2013 : 16:14:56
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I'm not concerned with the dragonborn one way or the other really. The realms are a big place and there is a lot of room for them. I would say that the debate about how powerful dragons are is funny. Dragons are part of the backbone of the game "Dungeons & Dragons" precisely because they can be weak enough for low level chars or more powerful that the toughest high level chars. I would say that most times when campaigns get into hack and slash mode, DMs often do not play them to their full abilities - because doing so is not easy. A dragon played to its full potential is an ancient, patient adversary that is physically powerful and extremely intelligent. They have magic (both spells and abilities) - and some cast spells on a level with archmages as well as resources characters cannot match in terms of finance and influence.
I'll agree to the latter... I once had someone describing to me how his level 12 paladin could easily kill any dragon. The guy was genuinely confused when I responded with "Not if I was running the dragon." Only the most unintelligent of dragons are going to simply hang around waiting for some little, ground-bound guy to walk up and poke them with something shorter than one of the dragon's own teeth. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2013 : 16:59:00
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| A DM does not need to be afraid to kill player characters. That is what i think is the biggest issue when it turns to "hack and slash" and "tougher" advesaries. If the players think they can stomp everything, have them encounter something that is out of their league and it is better for them to turn around and run like crazy, if they are too proud,stubborn or in some cases too stupid they have to hit the wall and face the consequences of their deeds. After that they will never again think they can take down everything. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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I think the dragonborn are here to stay
