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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jun 2013 : 19:47:41
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Why do Menzoberranzan products state there are 50-55 noble houses then list a huge number of "Non-noble families" instead of those families being the unnamed nobles families? They numbers seem to roughly correspond... I am planning a Menzoberranzan campaign and am considering just making all the named families ("non-noble") the other noble families.
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2013 : 21:21:10
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| Where are these huge lists? I have the Menzoberranzan box material, but I don't remember seeing big lists anywhere else. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2013 : 21:57:01
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Why do Menzoberranzan products state there are 50-55 noble houses then list a huge number of "Non-noble families" instead of those families being the unnamed nobles families? They numbers seem to roughly correspond...
I guess that in Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue, Brian James just wanted to account for some of the commoners, too, instead of only focusing on the noble houses. Drow intrigue tales have tended to be skewed toward the upper crust of their society, which underrepresents the majority of their population.
Wasn't part of the idea behind 4E supposed to be to get away from the major known NPCs? Those tend to be nobles, in the drow books. So maybe Brian was trying to honor that edition goal, somewhat, by touching on some of the non-noble families, too? The fact that the lists of non-noble family names comes in the section entitled "Creating Your Own House" really makes me think that that is what's going on, here. Brian seems to be encouraging players to use their creativity and dabble in some of the unknown parts of drow culture, rather than extremely familiar ones.
In Homeland, the Menzoberranzan [Boxed Set], and M:COI, there have consistently been said to be roughly 20,000 drow in the city.
RAS wrote at the beginning of Homeland that there were 67 drow houses. The Legacy said there were still sixty or so houses, ca. 1358 DR.
There were just over a thousand nobles in the city at the time of Homeland.
Kelnozz of House Kenafin, 15th House, recognized Drizzt as a noble, and bowed to him at first glance in Homeland. This seemed to indicate that either Kelnozz was not a noble of the house, himself; or Kenafin was not a noble house. That latter interpretation would seem to indicate that the noble houses were very few, back then.
But this was made more clear with the M[BS], which considered noble houses to include at least the top 21 houses.
M:COI greatly expands the number of houses to 100. The top 50 are considered noble houses: 1-8 being represented on the Ruling Council, 9-30 being considered Greater nobles, and 31-50 being considered Lesser nobles. The remaining 51-100 are considered Common families.
Hope that helps.
quote:
I am planning a Menzoberranzan campaign and am considering just making all the named families ("non-noble") the other noble families.
I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with that. If you don't mind noble rivalries with other, Greater Noble Houses, which might bring in elements and NPCs from the novels, then go for it. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 13 Jun 2013 22:02:27 |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2013 : 22:09:41
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Kelnozz of House Kenafin, 15th House, recognized Drizzt as a noble, and bowed to him at first glance in Homeland. This seemed to indicate that either Kelnozz was not a noble of the house, himself; or Kenafin was not a noble house. That latter interpretation would seem to indicate that the noble houses were very few, back then.
I'm no expert and I'm not trying to derail the discussion or disagree with anything, but it's also possible that since Do'Urden was higher up the food chain than Kenafin, Kelnozz was smart enough to show deference to higher houses even if he was a noble of his house. To do otherwise might be begging for a confrontation, and given the reputation of Zaknafein (even if Drizzt himself wasn't famous at that point) I doubt any male outside of a Baenre or Barrison Del'Armgo would want to pick a fight with a sword-bearing noble of house Do'Urden.
Another nuance might be presence in the ruling council. Do'Urden was either #8 or about to be, right? It seems logical that even the nobles of lower houses were expected to show some extra respect to the top eight.
Just my 2 coppers. And now I want to re-read everything. It's been too long. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2013 : 22:50:33
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Beast thank you for all your well researched and thought out responses. I see what authors consult you!
If only the top 21 houses are "noble" and the others are just aspiring nobles that makes sense (although its confusing when RA says there are xx number) Its also confusing who is counted as a nouble when things like House Millithor are described as having six "grandchildren" as priestesses, but aren't counted as nobles.
The families are listed in the map keys of the box set as well as the new book. Then some of them are named as non-noble families listed in the area descriptions in city of intrigue (as "common families") |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2013 : 23:49:36
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Well Merchant houses certainly a power faction might not have "Noble" blood.
All Drow have Houses from what I have gleaned, just not all Houses are able to claim and defend claiming a title of being a Noble one.
In some ways it could follow the model of the Earth's Dark and Middle Ages. Claim to Noble blood though great grandfather might be true however not able to defend it the Noble House might die. The unsettled lands (not under the Control of Rome) clearly had their Kings and Nobles that might have been recognized by Rome as barbarian Nobles not yet under the control of Rome. I am sure out of the Dark Ages came war leaders that could not even point to a great grandfather that was a Noble, however clearly able to assert themselves and heirs as Nobles because they had enough power to do so. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2013 : 03:09:39
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| Does anyone have homebrew info they want to share about campaign in Menzo or other drow cities (with drow characters or not?) I'd love to read it. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2013 : 03:17:27
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| Kentinal Drow nobility (in Menzo and Ched Nasad...we don't have info for other cities really) seems to be more regimented about who is and who is not a noble, though |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2013 : 04:07:49
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
I'm no expert and I'm not trying to derail the discussion or disagree with anything, but it's also possible that since Do'Urden was higher up the food chain than Kenafin, Kelnozz was smart enough to show deference to higher houses even if he was a noble of his house. To do otherwise might be begging for a confrontation, and given the reputation of Zaknafein (even if Drizzt himself wasn't famous at that point) I doubt any male outside of a Baenre or Barrison Del'Armgo would want to pick a fight with a sword-bearing noble of house Do'Urden.
That's entirely possible.
What is weird about the passage is that Kelnozz did not simply defer to Drizzt, but actually said, "A noble," out loud upon recognizing Drizzt's noble status. He did not say "my superior" or "my lord" or what-not. He called Drizzt a noble, which made it sound like he was contrasting Drizzt against himself.
House Kenafin was probably a noble house, but if Kelnozz was a grandson of the matron mother, then he would not have been a noble, in 1E. RAS's original formulation only considered the immediate children of the matron mother and titled common-born persons to be nobles.
But the 2E M[BS] later expanded noble status to just about all blood relatives of the matron mother. So, in retrospect, House Kenafin was a noble house, and Kelnozz was most likely a noble descendant of Matron Kenafin. Therefore, the passage in Homeland should probably be retconned as lesser noble Kelnozz (say, a grandson of the 15th House) simply deferring to a greater noble (Secondboy of the 9th House). He probably would've said "my lord" or something like that, instead of "a noble".
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Another nuance might be presence in the ruling council. Do'Urden was either #8 or about to be, right?
They became 9th at the beginning of Homeland, and 8th at the beginning of Exile.
But yeah, there was definitely an extremely ambitious, conniving air about ol' Malice, and everyone would know to be leery about her ilk. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 14 Jun 2013 19:07:54 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2013 : 04:19:38
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Beast thank you for all your well researched and thought out responses. I see what authors consult you!
Aw, thanks, man. 
But to be honest, a lot more fellow scribes have grilled me a lot more often than any of the authors have. (But let's keep hoping for the future!  ) |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 14 Jun 2013 04:32:49 |
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Madpig
Learned Scribe
Finland
148 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2013 : 12:17:33
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I think that it was clearly mentioned that Kelnozz (sp) was commoner. I think he introduced himself as Kelnozz XXX of house Kenafin.
Confusing issue about nobles and drows in general is that they have changed quite a lot over the years. Even Menzos landscape is wastly different in Homeland and War of the spiderqueen. I think thats the issue. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2013 : 15:47:51
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| Perhaps editors wanted to change it to "a noble" to make it more clear to readers that Drizzt would have been looked upon with deference for his rank. I am sure much of the content is changed to make it make sense to the audience of various abilities. (I believe I first read Drizzt books when I was elementary school, for example) |
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Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2013 : 15:48:35
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| Madpig: it was simply Kelnozz of House Kenafin:-) |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2013 : 20:02:32
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@MrHedgehog: BEAST’s response to your query is spot on. Much of the known lore of Menzoberranzan has focused on the noble families and it was my intention to shine the spotlight on some of the lesser known, commoner houses of the city.
As you spotted yourself, Ed Greenwood included many commoner houses in the map key of the 2nd-Edition AD&D boxed set and I wanted to continue that tradition in City of Intrigue (I never liked that subtitle, btw. Everyone knows Menzoberranzan is the City of Spiders!)
As for Kelnozz of House Kenafin, my takeaway from that passage in Homeland is that Kelnozz himself is not a noble; merely a servant of House Kenafin (which is most assuredly a noble house). For example, a servant gardener for House Do’Urden may name himself Tluin of House Do’Urden, but that doesn’t make him noble blooded. Noble blooded member of a house simply take the house name as their surname. Drizzt is Drizzt Do’Urden, not Drizzt of House Do’Urden. That’s my take anyway.
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Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2013 : 20:42:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
For example, a servant gardener for House Do’Urden may name himself Tluin of House Do’Urden, but that doesn’t make him noble blooded.
I hope no drow calls himself "Tluin". He'd certainly not be taken seriously by anyone with a command of the Common tongue!  |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2013 : 23:03:50
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| Haha. I was wondering how long it would be before someone spotted that. Not long at all. Damn you Wooly! |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2013 : 04:05:02
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I didn't realize Ed Greenwood was involved with the development of Menzoberranzan! Thank you for making that more clear Mr James. If I could i'd probably read whole books just about society in this city :S I assume they didn't use "City of Spiders" because it was too similar to the adventure in Maerimydra? Since you're here I thought i'd say this book was excellently designed. I liked that there were details of each division of the city and the different time periods!
I doubt it will come up (if I play this campaign - right now my friend is the DM in a pathfinder game) It is more for my own conception of it (and I like demographics and the world to make logical sense even if it is a fantasy) But in my own plan all the named commoner houses will be the lesser noble houses. Menzo isn't THAT big to have 67 noble families as well as all these other things in my opinion (11,000 drow [the number in the 3e book as opposed to Mr. James']) divided by 67 houses with houses that have 2,500 troops doesn't leave that much wiggle room |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2013 : 16:50:00
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Hedgehog, you most likely punch too high with regards to troops. The Menzoberranzan boxed set listed the first 18 noble houses of the city, and to get a measure, House Hunzrin (15th at the time) had roughly 220 drow (i.e. soldiers and nobles) plus 1.850 slaves. Ed Greenwood's numbers. Drizzt do Urden's Guide to the Underdark (roundabout 1370 DR) says roughly 20.000 live in Menzo, 1.000 of which are noble. It could well be that quite few of the low-key noble houses are very small indeed and some might even be noble in nothing but name.
Haven't dug all to deep into 4E drow lore, so I am not sure how far removed these numbers are from current events.
You can find the name lists of the drow houses of Menzo in this list ...
http://www.dnd-gate.de/gate3/page/index.php?id=420 |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 01 Jul 2013 16:52:05 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2013 : 17:33:41
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Here's a response I got from Ed and THO last year about drow troops and house size:
As for troop strength...well, as much as Candlekeep scribes are growing weary of my saying "it depends," I'm going to do it again anyway: It depends. :}
But yes, 20 to 50 warriors sounds good (less than twenty is either just a patrol raid or a suicidal attack, unless it's one unit of several involved in an all-out assault, and much above fifty isn't a smaller house unless the entire city is small or ravaged by war). The only such attack I've ever roleplayed through in detail, in a TSR playtest years back, had a main force of 45 (three priestesses and two wizards leading forty warriors) and a secondary "sneak attack from the rear" force of six veteran fighters, four veteran wizards, and two novice wizards.
This was when I was busily drawing my 6-page drow city map. Gods that took me forever. At any rate maybe this will help some.
Here's another for drow houses attacking each other:
As it happens, your topic is one I overheard Ed discussing with a TSR designer at a long-ago GenCon, so I can provide you a paraphrase of his views on this.
In general, the hardest thing for a drow house to conceal in an attack on a rival house in the same city is the military buildup. So a lot of misdirection and guerilla stuff goes on, including secretly mustering way out in the "wild" Underdark and then ambushing the rival house's patrols to weaken them, for some months before the all-out assault.
In all cases where the attacker doesn't have the brute-force or magical muscle to "crash right in," the assault usually involves trying to find defensive weaknesses and gaining access hard and fast through those weak points (which usually means an assault using magic or drop-lines from cavern ceilings or both, to gain access to upper-level windows or floors and so bypassing entry doors and heavily-defended areas), and deception (coming in concealed in food wagons, or posing as members of the house returning from a patrol or business trip, etc.).
Attackers often employ "trick" wagons loaded with timber frames that can be unfolded to jam doors open, or bombs (so as to blow up front gates or firing-port defenses), and smokepot/fiery bombs to force defenders out of certain areas with thick smoke, etc.
It is almost always against local civic rules to "wholesale poison" large numbers of fellow drow (i.e. by tainting a well or common water supply or incoming food or drinkables), though poisoned weapons can be used. Usually a house that does this will be punished by the rest of the community in the same manner as if their assault had failed.
So the magically-capable members of smaller drow houses engaged in warfare would do things like cast fly spells on key warriors of their house to mount these upper-storey assaults, and then provide "fighting support" (the fireballs, the webs) to assault teams once things get underway.
Lastly, diversions and disruptions. Such as an arranged stampede of pack lizards or Underdark monsters to occupy defenders in one or more locations before the real attackers arrive in other locations. Hired or manipulated driders (outcasts, not part of the attacking house) who stage a timely/untimely raid. Avalanches or stalactite falls (magically or physically triggered), and so on. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2013 : 21:33:20
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Does anyone have homebrew info they want to share about campaign in Menzo or other drow cities (with drow characters or not?) I'd love to read it.
I have a 6 page map of a drow city I designed last summer if you or anyone else wants it for personal use. It's hand drawn, black and white. I'm nowhere near a great artist, but should work in a pinch. You can find it here: http://eilserus.deviantart.com/gallery/
I created it for a drow campaign we were running. Szithlin, the city was originally founded as an outpost of House Dhuurniv of Maerimydra. With Maerimydra and Szith Morcane destroyed and the Matron Sisters driven from underneath the Twisted Tower, they retreated here and eventually their outpost grew into a city.
The cavern was originally much smaller, but the Spellplague melted swaths of solid rock away. With the destruction of Llurth Dreier, survivors made their way to Sschindlyryn but were quickly driven into the Underdark. Shortly after their arrival in Szithlin and in secret, the Oozelords of Ghaunadaur unleased The Great Devouring and called up countless abominations from the dark waters that destroyed a large portion of the small city before being beaten back.
The drow expanded, rebuilt in other areas and the old city became the docks and slums of the city. House Dhuurniv lost absolute control of the city during the war and slowly it formed into three factions vying for control: Ghaunadaur, Lolth, and Vhaeraun followers.
We haven't played this campaign in a while, but we were on the verge of kicking off a civil war. Or rather the PC's were most worried about being caught in the middle of it and being butchered. The PC's were running a beat-up slum dive tavern in the docks area and doing missions for the 1,000 year old Matron Sister hags. |
Edited by - Eilserus on 01 Jul 2013 21:47:07 |
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Menzoberranzan's noble houses
