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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 12:44:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by see
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
I can only think of one other situation in which something similar to this has happened - when Bhaal died during the ToT, all the assassins on Toril died instantly with him. Of course, Bhaal wasn't the deity of Assassins, he was the deity of death. Therefore all death should have been made impossible.
Though death did become impossible between Cyric's overthrow and Kelemvor's ascension in Prince of Lies.
Good point. I forgot about that.
Although these seem to be anomalies, because other deities don't seem to cause the same problems.
For example, Moander was the deity of Rotting Death, Decay, and Corruption. Moander has been destroyed numerous times, and yet we know that things like Decay and Corruption continued in the Realms in his absence.
When Amaunator faded away from lack of worship, Law and Order didn't vanish with him.
Just to throw out there to go along with this... yes, Moander is the deity of rot and decay. So is Set.
Vengeance is owned by both Hoar/Assuran and Kiaransalee.
Poison is owned by Talona, Set,
Night is owned by Shar and Set.
Destruction/Desert Storms is owned by Talos and Set. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Lunarbeams
Acolyte
43 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2012 : 16:10:01
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| Much we dislike Mystra (since she is kind of deity to have hands off approach) for the mechanic of magic to work we have to have a god of magic in whatever aspect. Like I said I never like Midnight but always replace her in Mystryl and her previous incarnation. The Chosen of Mystra acts like anchors because if they did not exist she be close Ao and I will not have problem with that. To me Weave and Shadow Weave is like the Force in Star WArs. |
"Software are easy to solve because they do not have egos. " |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2012 : 18:34:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Lunarbeams
Much we dislike Mystra (since she is kind of deity to have hands off approach) for the mechanic of magic to work we have to have a god of magic in whatever aspect. Like I said I never like Midnight but always replace her in Mystryl and her previous incarnation. The Chosen of Mystra acts like anchors because if they did not exist she be close Ao and I will not have problem with that. To me Weave and Shadow Weave is like the Force in Star WArs.
There is no god of magic in 4e realms.
Magic works just fine(if differently) in 4e realms.
I submit that this isn't simply the writers throwing established canon out the window, but rather the revelation that we've been laboring under an incorrect assumption; that the deity of magic was necessary for magic to function. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2012 : 12:36:48
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| Mystra as Goddess of Magic is a defining characteristic of the setting. It's like having a DC Universe which doesn't include Superman, or opening up a copy of Bullfinch's Mythology and finding that all mentions of Athena have been completely excised. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2012 : 01:21:55
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quote:
Originally posted Venger
Mystra as Goddess of Magic is a defining characteristic of the setting. It's like having a DC Universe which doesn't include Superman, or opening up a copy of Bullfinch's Mythology and finding that all mentions of Athena have been completely excised.
+1 |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2012 : 02:10:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Venger
Mystra as Goddess of Magic is a defining characteristic of the setting. It's like having a DC Universe which doesn't include Superman, or opening up a copy of Bullfinch's Mythology and finding that all mentions of Athena have been completely excised.
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2012 : 16:53:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Venger
Mystra as Goddess of Magic is a defining characteristic of the setting. It's like having a DC Universe which doesn't include Superman, or opening up a copy of Bullfinch's Mythology and finding that all mentions of Athena have been completely excised.
That's definitely true if your primary source of setting information is from the novels. If your primary source of setting information is from source books, though, that argument doesn't make much sense.
Superman is a primary viewpoint character, without him, the story cannot continue because he is the focus of the story. If he were to die, the story would come to an end. Mystra is one deity out of many. An important deity? Undoubtedly. However, she isn't the center of the setting or the story. If people believe that then they're getting a false impression of the Realms.
With the new 4E Lore the need for Mystra has all but been destroyed. Now, I personally believe that the way 4E handled the death of Mystra and the absence of the Weave was a mangling of lore - it was horrible. Past lore has continually made clear that if Mystra dies then the Weave goes with her, and when the Weave goes poof so does magic. This is why Netheril was destroyed during the Folly of Karsus.
As a result of this, even if Mystra and the Weave returns, she can never be as critical to the setting as she was in the past. The entire reason she seemed to be so critical was because without her there would be no magic. This assumption, due to the new lore, is shown to be false. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2012 : 17:05:29
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| The weave continued to exist because other God's stepped in. Like Deneir merging with the weave and I think some Gods work together to govern it? (Sseth, Correlon, Selune...?) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2012 : 18:14:31
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I found the whole 'Deneir merged with The Weave' thing very confusing and bizarre, for what its worth. It was one of those out-of-left-field unsupported (previously) bits of lore.
It was almost as if he was handed this uber responsibility solely because he was Cadderly's god. Now why, pray tell, would that be? {smirk}
I can think of several ways of putting a decent spin on that, but as it stands, its just kinda 'out there' right now.
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
The weave continued to exist because other God's stepped in. Like Deneir merging with the weave and I think some Gods work together to govern it? (Sseth, Correlon, Selune...?)
Like this, for example - Deneir should have been 'one of many' that took control of a piece of it to help bolster it. In fact, this could be a good way to bring back some 'lost gods' (once Mystra returns, their essence can once-again be severed from The Weave and made distinct entities).
Think of the lesser deities as 'sandbags' - once the storm is over, they are no longer needed.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Dec 2012 18:19:26 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2012 : 20:39:37
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
The weave continued to exist because other God's stepped in. Like Deneir merging with the weave and I think some Gods work together to govern it? (Sseth, Correlon, Selune...?)
Where has this been stated? In all honesty, I haven't kept up with the 4E lore much beyond the FRCG... but as Markus said this doesn't make much sense. Is this confirmed authoritatively what happened, or is this a character's opinion / assumption from a novel?
First of all, the Weave was supposed to literally be the body of Mystra. It wasn't something separate from her. This is why the Weave went poof during the Fall of Netheril. Why didn't someone just step up back then?
If the Weave is still the body of Mystra (and it hasn't been retconed), then Mystra technically didn't die... she's basically being kept on some type of divine life-support system. She'd still be around, but basically brain dead.
I, personally, just went with the most logical explanation. It was already established that part of the reason Mystra had so many Chosen was that she was storing her divine essence, so that if something were to befall her that she'd be able to draw upon that essence to return. This is similar to what Bhaal was attempting with his Bhaalspawn.
I just assumed that there were enough Chosen to maintain a badly damaged and weakened Weave. However, something was preventing them from resurrecting Mystra - her contingency failed. Thus, we have a roughly 100 year time gap where magic in the Realms is a shadow of its former self.
This is what I'm going with in my Realms at least, because it makes the most sense based on established lore. (Unless I decide to go and retcon what happened during the Time of Troubles. I'm waiting to see what 5E FR churns out, though.)
Anyway, this still doesn't detract from the main point I was making. If other deities stepped up and took control over the Weave, this makes Mystra even less relevant. There are plenty of other deities that are very well suited to take the magic and spells portfolio. This would effectively just replace Mystra entirely.
Thus, based on the argument that Venger was making - that Mystra was effectively the focus point of the Realms - even if they bring her back, she still could not maintain the prominence or importance that she once did. You would literally have to ignore everything that happened from the Spellplague forward. |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2012 : 00:58:06
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She did survive, after a sense. In the recent Sage of Shadowdale books, we learn where she has been over the 100 years. Also, I believe that the other times she has died, Ao has stepped in and made sure she was made "whole" quickly to keep Toril intact. This time, well, we all know the partial premise of the upcoming Sundering.
I did not keep up on the 4e "crunch", but I did pick up on the some of the lingering magical effects of the Spellplaque (spellscars in people 100 + years later, crazy magic issues in various locations, etc). Perhaps if she was 100% dead and gone, these things would have not happen 100 years later? Also, there would be no more silver fire, since that is from her directly.
I am just making guesses here. And I admit that a certain scene made me clap from one of Ed of the Greenwood's books. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2012 : 06:03:20
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| Mystra was formed from Selune hurling part of herself at Shar (unless that is a myth? A myth in a fantasy world...) so technically the Weave is Selune + Shar combined in the form of Mystryl/Mystra. Couldn't magic continue to exist as extensions of them? |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2012 : 07:11:20
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Mystra was formed from Selune hurling part of herself at Shar (unless that is a myth? A myth in a fantasy world...) so technically the Weave is Selune + Shar combined in the form of Mystryl/Mystra. Couldn't magic continue to exist as extensions of them?
I recently posted a question to Ed about the Selune & Shar myth, but unfortunately I never got a response. I certainly see both Selune and Shar as logical magic deities.
Shar, Selune, and Mystra are all from the Netherese Pantheon. The creation myth involving them seems to also be of Netherese origin. There are other creation myths; such as the one embraced by the Sarrukh who worshiped the Great Serpent. What do we do about those myths?
My thought has always been that the Selune and Shar myth is what most humans of Faerun believe - it's the most popular creation myth. However, like all myths there isn't a whole lot of truth in it. It also wouldn't be the only creation myth among the humans.
Sadly, in 4E with the whole primordial stuff added into the mix, I think we're going to end up with a situation where the Selune, Shar + Primordial myth becomes the official, "Yep, this is what happened before recorded history."
Of course, you then have to explain the various other creation myths.... and explain where Shar, Selune, and Mystra came from prior to the rise of Netheril. |
Edited by - Aldrick on 13 Dec 2012 07:14:24 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2012 : 15:37:03
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
The weave continued to exist because other God's stepped in. Like Deneir merging with the weave and I think some Gods work together to govern it? (Sseth, Correlon, Selune...?)
Interesting idea... haven't kept up with 4E lore. Where did it state Deneir merged with the weave? Personally, I can see Deneir taking a role like Azuth's if they didn't want to bring Azuth himself back (specifically if he were only over wizards and others who specifically use spellbooks to memorize spell constructs/"glyphs" into their minds). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2012 : 16:44:59
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I think it was in a Drizzt novel I didn't actually read. I got the impression writing himself into the weave killed him or made him cease to exist as a deity.
I assumed Shar and Selune always existed. They pre-dated Netheril and just happened to be worshiped by them. (So did Kozah/Talos and Chauntea/Jannath) Shar, Selune, and Chauntea were the first deities from which the others sprang. In my view their myth is literal and the Great World Serpent Myth is fictitious. Selune created the Sun, the weave by hurling part of herself at Shar, and she creaeted the sun because Chauntea wanted warmth to create life. Their conflict created other deities like Kozah/Talos. |
Edited by - MrHedgehog on 13 Dec 2012 16:50:32 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2012 : 20:40:47
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| It talked about Deneir's death (and Cadderly's *grumbles*), but I don't remember it saying he became part of the Weave. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2012 : 20:54:33
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| There was a scene where Cadderly was meditating to commune with Deneir and had a vision of him writing the metatext into the weave, and I believe Cadderly mentions that it was as if Denier was writing his own being into it. Been a while since I read the book, though. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Drakul
Senior Scribe
USA
367 Posts |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2012 : 04:21:37
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| CorellonsDevout and CoA are correct. It was in The Ghost King, and yes, Deneir "wrote" himself into the Weave. This scene was shortly before Cadderly himself "died" trying to destroy the dracolich Hephaestus (who was taken over/merged with Crynshinebon). He ended up only trapping the dracolich inside Spirit Soaring. I recall it mainly because that book is also when Cattie-Brie and Regis died- which I STILL hate as the WORST deaths in FR EVER. At least Bruenor and Pwent went down fighting.... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2012 : 07:53:50
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sits on rump, and waves finger, who said those two were dead and as for Pwent........ welll lets jsut say he's there and not there....
if you recall or atleast how I read it a part of them........ |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2012 : 15:00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
CorellonsDevout and CoA are correct. It was in The Ghost King, and yes, Deneir "wrote" himself into the Weave. This scene was shortly before Cadderly himself "died" trying to destroy the dracolich Hephaestus (who was taken over/merged with Crynshinebon). He ended up only trapping the dracolich inside Spirit Soaring. I recall it mainly because that book is also when Cattie-Brie and Regis died- which I STILL hate as the WORST deaths in FR EVER. At least Bruenor and Pwent went down fighting....
Let's set aside the awkward unintentional implications of this for just a moment...
I did a quick check to see what year the Ghost King focused on, and it took place primarily in the late summer of 1385 DR, Year of Blue Fire. So this means Cadderly's vision may hold some meaning... but was this BEFORE or AFTER the Blue Fire?
If this happened BEFORE the Blue Fire, doesn't this mean Deneir effectively did the same exact thing as Karsus? If this happened AFTER the Blue Fire, how does he merge with the Weave AFTER it's collapsed?
Now, there are a whole bucket load of problems with the way things went down and the fallout afterward. At the end of the day, I think this whole Denier thing is going to be hand waved away or overlooked entirely in 5E. Alternatively, Denier is going to rise and take Azuth's place.
Novel's aren't authoritative; so they aren't the best source for lore unless you're looking for details on what actions a specific viewpoint character took. Here is what the 4E FRCG has to say on the matter...
"The breaking of the Weave destroyed most of the portals that crisscrossed Toril, because it destroyed the hard-won knowledge of arcane casters." Pg. 5
"The Weave collapsed in a moment with the murder of Mystra, unleashing catastrophe across the world." Pg. 48
"Many creatures that had been able to cast spells and channel magic through the Weave found themselves powerless in the Spellplague’s wake." Pg. 50
"For eons, magic in Toril was focused through the Weave, controlled by the goddess Mystra. Although Netherese wizards of ancient days learned the truth, most people believed that magic would not be possible without the deity’s existence. However, the death of Mystra gave the lie to that belief. Now the term "Weave" is just another name for magic, if it is used at all." Pg. 50
"Not satisfied with her portion, Shar plotted to seize control of both when Cyric murdered Mystra. She miscalculated. The Weave collapsed so completely that Shar not only failed to gather up its fraying threads, she also lost control over the Shadow Weave." Pg. 50
"Demons bound long ago were freed when Mystra's Weave failed, and many yet roam the landscape." Pg. 144
"However, as wizards relearned their craft in the decades following the Weave’s collapse, Iomic crystal was shown to be nothing special." Pg. 162 & 163
The FRCG is pretty clear in this: The Weave failed and collapsed when Mystra died. There is absolutely nothing in the FRCG that says anyone stepped in to save it. It even goes as far to point out that Mystra and her faithful were liars, because magic could exist without the Weave. (How Netherese arcanists discovered this "long ago", and yet were brought low when the Weave went poof - that's a question I can't be bothered to perform the mental gymnastics to answer.) |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2012 : 19:02:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Novel's aren't authoritative; so they aren't the best source for lore unless you're looking for details on what actions a specific viewpoint character took. Here is what the 4E FRCG has to say on the matter...
I was unaware that WotC has actually made an official statement that source books are more cannon than novels. Is there a source that statement? |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2012 : 20:07:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Novel's aren't authoritative; so they aren't the best source for lore unless you're looking for details on what actions a specific viewpoint character took. Here is what the 4E FRCG has to say on the matter...
I was unaware that WotC has actually made an official statement that source books are more cannon than novels. Is there a source that statement?
There isn't a statement saying they are more canon... WotC canon doesn't have degrees of canonicity, like Star Wars canon does. For the most part, it's either canon or it's not, and very little of what is published by TSR or WotC falls into the "not" category.
Novels and source material have always been canon, since they started publishing the Realms. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2012 : 22:20:35
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Also, just because Deneir ATTEMPTED to merge with the Weave doesn't mean he was successful. What Cadderly saw in his last vision of the god isn't neccessarily what actually happened, but an interpretation of what Deneir was trying to show him. In other words, he may have TRIED to hold it together, but apparently he failed, which would mean he was destroyed along with it when it collapsed. Corellon and several other deities apparently attempted to do the same thing, but none were successful. Without Mystra, it could not hold together. End of story.
sfdragon- Yeah, I nkow what happened to Pwent- I have a couple of the FR comic books where Drizzt and Dahlia first encountered him post-vamp transformation. I was surprised, but not overly so. Pwent was bitten before he died- why WOULDN'T he have been turned? *shrugs* But I was referring to his "death", which was, at least, heroic. As for Bruenor, he DID die, and is in Iruladoon with Cattie and the others, so for now at least, he is certainly dead. Whether he STAYS that way remains to be seen. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2012 : 00:00:38
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You know, in retrospect I don't mind Cat's death so much. What I mind more is her treatment prior to her death- crippled and made barren so she and Drizzt couldn't have any kids, made a wizard and then not do anything with it up until she died- was a waste of her character up until her death.
But killing her when they did, how they did, I get it. She was going to die in the time skip of old age, anyway; killing her the way RAS did made the spellplague more impactful because it took something away from Drizzt on a personal level. It's the difference between watching a hurricane devastate a city on tv and living through it and losing someone to it.
Going back to Mystra and the Weave; the weave doesn't function without Mystra, but magic does- it functions differently than it did with Mystra there, but it still functions. I wonder if post-spellplague magic is magic au naturel, the way it's supposed to be, and Mystra and the Weave are artifical constructs- for lack of a better word- that were imposed on magic to make it function differently. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
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Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2012 : 06:26:43
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| atleast I was vague with my spoiler..... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
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4uk4ata
Acolyte
Bulgaria
16 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2012 : 14:42:31
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| I'd like to see Mystra not so much as a goddess whose portfolio is magic, but as essentially the sentience of magic, which kind of acts like a deity and is mostly accepted as one. That is how I perceived the original Mystra, and I liked it a lot more than her opposite numbers from other settings. |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2012 : 22:55:47
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Bring back Mystra for me. She is integral to the setting imo. As for some other gods in some way maintaining the weave until Mystra's return, hmm. Afaik the portfolio of magic is unclaimed, this may be why these other gods have done a bit of a botched job of it, making magic the way it is today. Eg. I'm no mechanic but I can do simple jobs to fix problems on my car. I would have no idea how to rebuild an engine though.
The realms needs stable and dependable magic and Mystra is the best way to achieve this.
Ed has always said that there is more than one kind of magic in FR, the weave was just the easiest way to tap into it. Personally I would prefer Mystra to govern all magic (save divine). It makes the setting (for me) make more sense.
Reading through the pages of this thread I see some comments regarding the gods abilities in exercising their portfolio. Eg,decay still going on when the god of decay perished. The gods only direct these forces of nature, they are not the well spring from which these forces spew forth. When a god dies then the measure of control they had over there portfolio dies with them.(For example) Things like decay may behave oddly for a while but they will continue, and we all know what happened to magic when Mystra died!
Oh yes, someone said that people couldn't die during the ToT. Now if I remember correctly, actual death continued but the souls of the dead were stuck on the fugue plane because the gods had been cast down and they were unable to take their worshipers on to the afterlife. (I could be wrong about that, it was a long time ago lol) |
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Entromancer
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2012 : 18:45:31
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I don't think its necessary to have a god for natural processes such as decay etc. That can happen regardless, so long as Toril's got plenty of decomposers. I think we do need Mystra back. If she returns, I'd like her to be strictly neutral. Sometimes she would order her chosen to act in favor of a force that some might deem evil and other times work for a force that some would deem good. Plus working in favor of forces that fall within shades of gray.
Basically I think she should be a sort of Cosmic Balance since magic shouldn't be good or evil on its own; it should be whatever its caster wishes it to be/wields it to be. |
"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul
"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul |
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1072 Posts |
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Do we need a god/dess of magic?
