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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Dec 2012 : 08:09:00
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Let Mystra stay dead, and feed Shar to Asmodeus' dogs. The Weave and the Shadow Weave can work just fine without them. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 02:17:11
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| For those of you that are waiting on my Thayan stuff, I appreciate your patients, I’m still working on it. Life just threw me another kinda of bad curve ball and it took me a bit to deal with it. With that said, I wish to pose something that’s been nagging me for a while, something that doesn’t quite make sense. Why didn’t Thoth take over as the God of magic when Midnight died? In fact, why didn’t Ao give him the position in the first place after the Time of troubles? Because of the empires of the east, he’s an established God, so yeah, not understanding things here. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 04:11:14
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| Why would Thoth in particular take over magic when there were other deities of magic other than him? |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 04:35:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Let Mystra stay dead, and feed Shar to Asmodeus' dogs. The Weave and the Shadow Weave can work just fine without them.
Never fear. Based on my interpretation of the Twilight War trilogy, I think Mask is going to return and knock Shar off her high horse in The Godborn. Of course, I can't say that with certainty, but I would bet money on it. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 04:45:51
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| As for Mystra, I think 4e dropped the ball with this one. How do they justify needing her back when Toril has had 100 years to adapt to spellcasting after the collapse of the Weave? |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 10:20:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
As for Mystra, I think 4e dropped the ball with this one. How do they justify needing her back when Toril has had 100 years to adapt to spellcasting after the collapse of the Weave?
Because she is popular and a hell of a lot of people miss the weave magic. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 11:51:36
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Why would Thoth in particular take over magic when there were other deities of magic other than him?
Your parden, I don’t know about all the Gods/Goddess in the FR universe. I’ve not read through Faiths and Pantheons yet, and I don’t deny that another individual could have served the same function, so the question in a general sense still stands, why didn’t God X be given the job? And to whom do you think should have given the position? |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 12:08:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
As for Mystra, I think 4e dropped the ball with this one. How do they justify needing her back when Toril has had 100 years to adapt to spellcasting after the collapse of the Weave?
Because she is popular and a hell of a lot of people miss the weave magic.
I think it has less to do with the Weave and more to do with people perceiving her as a part of the setting, and in particular a part of the setting that was removed in a manner many find objectionable. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 12:13:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Why would Thoth in particular take over magic when there were other deities of magic other than him?
Your parden, I don’t know about all the Gods/Goddess in the FR universe. I’ve not read through Faiths and Pantheons yet, and I don’t deny that another individual could have served the same function, so the question in a general sense still stands, why didn’t God X be given the job? And to whom do you think should have given the position?
In-setting, a factor would be that Thoth is not a Faerûnian deity, and Ao doesn't let deities bounce from pantheon to pantheon. Also, though it was never explained, we were told that Shar somehow blocked the ascension of a new deity of magic. How she did something that only Ao could do was never explained; so far as I know, they never even referenced the fact that she couldn't do that. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 14:01:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Why would Thoth in particular take over magic when there were other deities of magic other than him?
Your parden, I don’t know about all the Gods/Goddess in the FR universe. I’ve not read through Faiths and Pantheons yet, and I don’t deny that another individual could have served the same function, so the question in a general sense still stands, why didn’t God X be given the job? And to whom do you think should have given the position?
In-setting, a factor would be that Thoth is not a Faerûnian deity, and Ao doesn't let deities bounce from pantheon to pantheon. Also, though it was never explained, we were told that Shar somehow blocked the ascension of a new deity of magic. How she did something that only Ao could do was never explained; so far as I know, they never even referenced the fact that she couldn't do that.
I asked the same basic Thoth question years ago, and you always get different answers. The idea came around again with Cyric being denied magic. The same thing came up when something happened to Kelemvor and suddenly noone was dying in the realms? There were other deities of the dead in the world, some even in Faerun just in racial pantheons. This is one reason why I'm thinking the idea of all deities coming back could be a good thing. No more absolute power like that. It would be different in a smaller world like Dragonlance with a set Pantheon for everyone. But larger worlds with racial pantheons, regional pantheons, and thereby a lot more plots going on just don't fit that shoehorn model. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 14:01:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
As for Mystra, I think 4e dropped the ball with this one. How do they justify needing her back when Toril has had 100 years to adapt to spellcasting after the collapse of the Weave?
Because she is popular and a hell of a lot of people miss the weave magic.
I think it has less to do with the Weave and more to do with people perceiving her as a part of the setting, and in particular a part of the setting that was removed in a manner many find objectionable.
Killing Mystra is like killing Drizzt. It will never be a permanent death. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 14:27:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
As for Mystra, I think 4e dropped the ball with this one. How do they justify needing her back when Toril has had 100 years to adapt to spellcasting after the collapse of the Weave?
Because she is popular and a hell of a lot of people miss the weave magic.
I think it has less to do with the Weave and more to do with people perceiving her as a part of the setting, and in particular a part of the setting that was removed in a manner many find objectionable.
They go hand in hand. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 16:19:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
As for Mystra, I think 4e dropped the ball with this one. How do they justify needing her back when Toril has had 100 years to adapt to spellcasting after the collapse of the Weave?
Because she is popular and a hell of a lot of people miss the weave magic.
I think it has less to do with the Weave and more to do with people perceiving her as a part of the setting, and in particular a part of the setting that was removed in a manner many find objectionable.
Killing Mystra is like killing Drizzt. It will never be a permanent death.
No, but a man can dream.
A man can dream. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 16:50:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
As for Mystra, I think 4e dropped the ball with this one. How do they justify needing her back when Toril has had 100 years to adapt to spellcasting after the collapse of the Weave?
Because she is popular and a hell of a lot of people miss the weave magic.
I think it has less to do with the Weave and more to do with people perceiving her as a part of the setting, and in particular a part of the setting that was removed in a manner many find objectionable.
They go hand in hand.
Mystra is the Weave, yes -- but people wanting Mystra back isn't because they love the Weave. It's because they like Mystra as the deity of magic. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 21:50:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
As for Mystra, I think 4e dropped the ball with this one. How do they justify needing her back when Toril has had 100 years to adapt to spellcasting after the collapse of the Weave?
Because she is popular and a hell of a lot of people miss the weave magic.
I think it has less to do with the Weave and more to do with people perceiving her as a part of the setting, and in particular a part of the setting that was removed in a manner many find objectionable.
They go hand in hand.
Mystra is the Weave, yes -- but people wanting Mystra back isn't because they love the Weave. It's because they like Mystra as the deity of magic.
People do love the weave and all that it brings to the realms.
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 23:58:43
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| for me it's as simple as it's not the realms without Mystra....i feel she is integral to the setting. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2013 : 14:06:53
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
for me it's as simple as it's not the realms without Mystra....i feel she is integral to the setting.
And for me, Mystra represents everything that is wrong with the realms.
I suppose there really isn't a middle ground on this one. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2013 : 15:33:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
for me it's as simple as it's not the realms without Mystra....i feel she is integral to the setting.
And for me, Mystra represents everything that is wrong with the realms.
I suppose there really isn't a middle ground on this one.
I would say if your ready to take a positon of your stay in touch with the realms if there is no Mystra vs. I'm outta here if she is back.....then no there is no middle ground.
But if you avoid novels that feature her and excise her(or diminsh, change ..whatever works for you) from "your realms"...there is limitless space in the middle. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2013 : 20:20:00
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
for me it's as simple as it's not the realms without Mystra....i feel she is integral to the setting.
And for me, Mystra represents everything that is wrong with the realms.
I suppose there really isn't a middle ground on this one.
I would say if your ready to take a positon of your stay in touch with the realms if there is no Mystra vs. I'm outta here if she is back.....then no there is no middle ground.
But if you avoid novels that feature her and excise her(or diminsh, change ..whatever works for you) from "your realms"...there is limitless space in the middle.
Then no, there really isn't a middle ground.
Because I don't feel that I should be the one to excise her from "my realms" any more than you feel you should be the one to add her to "your realms". |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2013 : 21:42:09
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Given that statement, giant space hamster, perhaps Ao didn’t want a Goddess of magic, perhaps he saw something for the weave, which was being prevented by Midnight, something that may, or may not have happened yet. Perhaps Midnight was disrupting the balance too much and Ao simply allowed everything to happen in order to correct that balance.
Now, regarding middle ground, the most compromising view I can come up with is having Midnight’s vestige become part of the weave, and then the weave can become a semi-sentient force of nature. This is the view I’ve preferred since hearing of the time of troubles and the first death of mystra. It’s a view I shall always prefer. I don’t personally see her as necessary for the setting, although I wont deny her popularity. That in itself isn’t enough to bring her back to me. Helm was vary popular for a while, and with the exception of What Errik is doing, Helm is dead as can be.
(By the way, recently read Downshadow and loved it).
Do I think that constently killing Mystra’s is a sign of poor imagination, yes, the first two, I could understand, and made sense, this last one didn’t. Helms death didn’t make sense to me either, nor has several other Gods/goddesses that they’ve killed along the way. Simply bringing them back, to me, will only exasterbate, not fix the problem. The Realms has, and should remain, an evolving place. How individuals react to that, how they grow with the realms, is what makes them heroic characters. I’m sorry Ed if this comes across as crass, or uncouth, and while I understand to some degree why you are doing it, I hope in a way that Elmenster doesn’t succeed in bringing Mystra back. For one, I would find seeing how Elmenster deals with the loss of Midnight, and how he goes on with his life, as a far more compelling story than the return of Mystra. If changes in the system need to be made, then one could easily say that the alteration is some new dynamic within the weave itself, or in Ao’s handling of the weave, or something like that. Finally, and even though this might come across as heartless, although that’s not my intent, I look forward to the day when there isn’t a Drizzt, or an Elmenster, and both writers have turned a new page and brought into being new characters, who I have no doubt they will create quite well, in the Forgotten Realms. It is my dearest hope that I have expressed myself, or how I perceive the realms, and how I hope the realms to be, others might not appreciate this perception, and I understand, and ho0pefully folks will read this and perceive the spirit in which it was intended. Thanks for your time, that is all.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2013 : 21:58:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
Given that statement, giant space hamster, perhaps Ao didn’t want a Goddess of magic, perhaps he saw something for the weave, which was being prevented by Midnight, something that may, or may not have happened yet. Perhaps Midnight was disrupting the balance too much and Ao simply allowed everything to happen in order to correct that balance.
If it had been stated that Ao blocked the ascension of a new goddess of magic, that would have been an entirely different issue. But that is not what's stated -- we were explicitly told that Shar was the one who blocked it. Since Ao is the only one with that ability, this does not make sense.
And honestly, if Midnight was a problem, Ao should have let her die and then promoted a new Mystra. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Mar 2013 22:24:08 |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2013 : 00:28:01
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All valid points, and I thought of some of them as I was writing my post.
I guess I'm just trying to rationalize something, that just doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Do we need a god/dess of magic?
