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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 19:42:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Various Contingency Magics:
2e
Mantle (page 93, Secrets of the Magister)
Irithra's Spelltouch (page 103, SotM)
Spell Trigger (page 106, SotM)
Greater Spell Trigger (page 108, SotM)
Mordenkainen's Faithful Phantom Guardian (page 58, Greyhawk Adventures) DON'T LEAVE HOME WITHOUT IT!
Rary's Mind Shield (page 67, GreyAdv)
Rary's Urgent Utterance (page 68, GreyAdv)
Rary's Protection from Scrying (page 68, GreyAdv)
Tenser's Fortunes of War (page 71, GreyAdv)
That is just from two books I happened to have on my desk...if you honestly want more, I can provide perhaps hundreds if time permits.
Forgotten realms only please. greyhawk specific spells will have little bearing on FR.
I have a copy of secrets of the magister so ill have to look at those tomorrow when I dig it out to remember. I cannot find anything on those spells from the official all encompassing Dnd tools compendium. Are they 3.5 or higher? or were they phased out?
Also, I want only contingent spells that could have specifically saved Aznar Thrul's life in this specific situation where he had lost his robe and was literally naked with no spell components running down the hall, and only with magics current rules(3.5-4th edition specific)
As others have noted, nearly any spell from the Player's Handbook originated in Greyhawk as a setting...the fact that they are used in the Forgotten Realms only speaks to the fact that the two worlds are both in fact places where the various Bigby's, Tenser's and etc spells are used...so they do have bearing.
Novels are not part of the rules wars...and I'll not degenerate into a rules edition war in this thread. The fact remains that as the pinnacle of Evokers in Thay, the fella would have had use of magic he could use without anything at all in hand.
You wanted examples...I'll gladly pull out the Spell Compendiums and ramble off more...but I think you don't actually want to see the spells because you are interested in simply stating that it was ok for him to die.
Ok...it was ok for him to die because it was what the author intended. It was actually a good read...I only said he wouldn't have went out that way in my opinion. I can't convince you to accept my opinion though...you have your own.
If you don't want to accept that there are spells that could have been "hanging" or "contingent" that would have saved the fella...then that is that.
I thought this was more a request for a list...not an attempt to discredit what I had to say. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6647 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 23:17:33
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I don't think anyone should ever read the novels with a copy of the PH next to them on the couch. That just leads to ... well ... exasperation. The game rules are a very poor, oily lens through which to try and view Realms fiction.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 02:47:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Various Contingency Magics:
2e
Mantle (page 93, Secrets of the Magister)
Irithra's Spelltouch (page 103, SotM)
Spell Trigger (page 106, SotM)
Greater Spell Trigger (page 108, SotM)
Mordenkainen's Faithful Phantom Guardian (page 58, Greyhawk Adventures) DON'T LEAVE HOME WITHOUT IT!
Rary's Mind Shield (page 67, GreyAdv)
Rary's Urgent Utterance (page 68, GreyAdv)
Rary's Protection from Scrying (page 68, GreyAdv)
Tenser's Fortunes of War (page 71, GreyAdv)
That is just from two books I happened to have on my desk...if you honestly want more, I can provide perhaps hundreds if time permits.
Forgotten realms only please. greyhawk specific spells will have little bearing on FR.
I have a copy of secrets of the magister so ill have to look at those tomorrow when I dig it out to remember. I cannot find anything on those spells from the official all encompassing Dnd tools compendium. Are they 3.5 or higher? or were they phased out?
Also, I want only contingent spells that could have specifically saved Aznar Thrul's life in this specific situation where he had lost his robe and was literally naked with no spell components running down the hall, and only with magics current rules(3.5-4th edition specific)
As others have noted, nearly any spell from the Player's Handbook originated in Greyhawk as a setting...the fact that they are used in the Forgotten Realms only speaks to the fact that the two worlds are both in fact places where the various Bigby's, Tenser's and etc spells are used...so they do have bearing.
Novels are not part of the rules wars...and I'll not degenerate into a rules edition war in this thread. The fact remains that as the pinnacle of Evokers in Thay, the fella would have had use of magic he could use without anything at all in hand.
You wanted examples...I'll gladly pull out the Spell Compendiums and ramble off more...but I think you don't actually want to see the spells because you are interested in simply stating that it was ok for him to die.
Ok...it was ok for him to die because it was what the author intended. It was actually a good read...I only said he wouldn't have went out that way in my opinion. I can't convince you to accept my opinion though...you have your own.
If you don't want to accept that there are spells that could have been "hanging" or "contingent" that would have saved the fella...then that is that.
I thought this was more a request for a list...not an attempt to discredit what I had to say.
Not at all sir. I was merely under the impression that contingent spells were changed under 3.5 rules, as someone mentioned, and that all of them needed a focus now. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 03:05:19
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My apologies for my "old man disease" (being grouchy and overly touchy  ).
In that case, no...even in 3.5, there are many spells which are contingent that do not require items to be on the caster's person. In fact, 3.x and beyond made my own spellcasters even more dangerous do to various feats and new combinations of feats/spells/class features.
I'm not arguing that the author's writing was poor mind you...only that I didn't like how my second favorite Red Wizard met his end. 
I've not looked at my 3.x books in a while now...but I'd be glad to put out a few things.
I have thought out MANY Red Wizards I have wanted to play...but I've yet to have an opportunity. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 03:13:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
My apologies for my "old man disease" (being grouchy and overly touchy ).
In that case, no...even in 3.5, there are many spells which are contingent that do not require items to be on the caster's person. In fact, 3.x and beyond made my own spellcasters even more dangerous do to various feats and new combinations of feats/spells/class features.
I'm not arguing that the author's writing was poor mind you...only that I didn't like how my second favorite Red Wizard met his end.
I've not looked at my 3.x books in a while now...but I'd be glad to put out a few things.
I have thought out MANY Red Wizards I have wanted to play...but I've yet to have an opportunity.
Tis all good sir :p I can see how my post might have come off the wrong way.
if you could compile a small list of 3.5 stuff I would appreciate it :)
I can always look for ways to have multiple contingencies on my wizard:)
I guess I had no problem with his end because he felt comfortable and overconfident in his sanctum and lost most of his components. Some people when comfortable might not recast a spell on themselves every X days :p |
Edited by - Firestorm on 09 Nov 2012 03:14:20 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 03:30:02
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I don't think anyone should ever read the novels with a copy of the PH next to them on the couch. That just leads to ... well ... exasperation. The game rules are a very poor, oily lens through which to try and view Realms fiction.
-- George Krashos
Indeed. Use a comfortable recliner, not the couch.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 04:01:02
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A good start for my personal "Red Wizard's Contingency Survival Guide" is to understand that Contingent magics do not all rely on the Craft Contingent Spell feat (read about Contingent Spell feat on pages 77 and 139 of the book Complete Arcane).
With this particular feat, ANY spell can be made permanently contingent...any spell at all; no focus needed. I usually planned this as various magical tats my character was going to have...but that isn't actually required.
When we throw in things like Alacritous Cogitation (page 37 of Complete Mage)...a wizard can in effect have at their disposal any spell they desire at their need.
With feats such as Spell Reprieve (page 9 of Lost Empires of Faerun) then any specialist wizard can still gain access to the most life-saving of magical spells created in the world.
...I'll talk more later; about both feats and spells. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Neo2151
Learned Scribe
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 08:43:02
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quote:
I guess I had no problem with his end because he felt comfortable and overconfident in his sanctum and lost most of his components. Some people when comfortable might not recast a spell on themselves every X days :p
Here's my beef with the way he died:
You don't become the Zulkir of any school of magic, in a land such as Thay, without being almost paranoid about self-preservation, even in your own sanctum. (Zulkir of Abjuration is about the only one who might get away with relaxing at home, but that's only because they're almost guaranteed to have the most powerful protective magics.) |
"Come looking for me, and I will blast you to dust, and then lay waste to all your descendants, ancestors, and the realm you came from, every last tree and stone of it. Why? Well, it's what I usually do."
-Baerendra Riverhand on The Story of Spellfire |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 19:13:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Neo2151
quote:
I guess I had no problem with his end because he felt comfortable and overconfident in his sanctum and lost most of his components. Some people when comfortable might not recast a spell on themselves every X days :p
Here's my beef with the way he died:
You don't become the Zulkir of any school of magic, in a land such as Thay, without being almost paranoid about self-preservation, even in your own sanctum. (Zulkir of Abjuration is about the only one who might get away with relaxing at home, but that's only because they're almost guaranteed to have the most powerful protective magics.)
Certainly. But contingent spells generally have strict interpretations like the wish spell. Most people won't set them to go off if they are merely attacked. Otherwise a kid could throw a rock at you and, whoosh, wasted expensive contingency.
Maybe he had a contingent Teleport or 3, but perhaps it was designed to go off if he was attacked by magic(Far more likely than a physical threat). Or if he was rendered feebleminded. Or immobile, etc
Those are quite common.
He may have just been vain enough to think his talismans and bracers and other items would provide protection from mere physical attacks and ignored it in his contingencies.
A guy like him no doubt had all sorts of armoring items in his person(Or at least, his cloak) to protect him from mere warriors/assassins.
He did launch a series of quickened spells and glyphs at Mari, before speaking a quickened word to teleport across the room to his robe(When he should have teleported to the next floor). they did mention how he had "already forged unshakable alliances with fire, acid, lightning and cold", indicating that he likely had some permanency wards on his person. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 19:18:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
A good start for my personal "Red Wizard's Contingency Survival Guide" is to understand that Contingent magics do not all rely on the Craft Contingent Spell feat (read about Contingent Spell feat on pages 77 and 139 of the book Complete Arcane).
With this particular feat, ANY spell can be made permanently contingent...any spell at all; no focus needed. I usually planned this as various magical tats my character was going to have...but that isn't actually required.
When we throw in things like Alacritous Cogitation (page 37 of Complete Mage)...a wizard can in effect have at their disposal any spell they desire at their need.
With feats such as Spell Reprieve (page 9 of Lost Empires of Faerun) then any specialist wizard can still gain access to the most life-saving of magical spells created in the world.
...I'll talk more later; about both feats and spells.
Nice. I look forward to hearing more. For some reason, I always thought they needed a focus. nice to know it is not so |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 23:13:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Neo2151
You don't become the Zulkir of any school of magic, in a land such as Thay, without being almost paranoid about self-preservation, even in your own sanctum.
Except Yaphyll, apparently. Remember how Lallara shook her head in disgust when they went to Yaphyll's tower? She even commented something along the line of "Not even the most basic of wards..."
As to Aznar's death:
I suppose it's rather too convenient that he forgot that the kind of fiend he faced was capable of teleportation. Even if you say he's a bit shaken by the ordeal, still, to forget such very crucial nature of the fiend is, well, too convenient. But all things considered, the way it's handled is not really that bad. [Way better than resurrecting Pharaun only to have him killed again.] |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 09 Nov 2012 23:18:46 |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2012 : 04:47:31
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| Not really, Lallara also discerned the wards in the Tower of Revelation to be potent enought to prevent daggers being flung or thunderbolts being thrown it. It may be transparent and open but it can deflect attacks and protect those inside it |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2012 : 05:01:28
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Yes, and those she perceived herself, hence her comment that she could "tolerate it for a while." Still, to her, such wards were unfit for a zulkir, the supposed pinnacle of magecraft in their realm. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 11 Nov 2012 05:02:24 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6647 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2012 : 10:42:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Yes, and those she perceived herself, hence her comment that she could "tolerate it for a while." Still, to her, such wards were unfit for a zulkir, the supposed pinnacle of magecraft in their realm.
I'll have to comment here to say that the zulkirs are not the pinnacle of magecraft in Thay. That's the simplistic take that TSR/WotC and the novelists that write for them took because it was easy to do so. The position of zulkir is a political one. It does not and has not ever been a confirmation that you are the best or most powerful wizard of your particular magic school in Thay.
You can resume your normal programming now.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2012 : 14:12:09
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| Thats a good point. After all even Dmitra Flass herself commented something to the effect of there being powerful illsionists in her school but she was still chosen to be zulkir after the demise of her predecessor Mythrellan, due to the high political position she had attained thanks to her uncovering of Szass Tam plots. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2012 : 18:44:06
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Yes, and those she perceived herself, hence her comment that she could "tolerate it for a while." Still, to her, such wards were unfit for a zulkir, the supposed pinnacle of magecraft in their realm.
I'll have to comment here to say that the zulkirs are not the pinnacle of magecraft in Thay. That's the simplistic take that TSR/WotC and the novelists that write for them took because it was easy to do so. The position of zulkir is a political one. It does not and has not ever been a confirmation that you are the best or most powerful wizard of your particular magic school in Thay.
You can resume your normal programming now.
-- George Krashos
Must I highlight the word "supposed" above? There's a reason I mentioned that.
I'm well aware becoming a zulkir takes more than power and skill in magecraft, it also requires political manipulation or back-up/support. Dmitra Flass and Samas Kul are prime examples of this. While they're not the most powerful Illusionist and Transmuter in their respective orders, they have the support of their peers and most importantly, the approval of the other zulkirs, who deftly turn the table to their favor.
As for the incompetent Zola. Well, after Szass Tam took all his capable necromancers to his side, there's really no other "better" option left.
Let me note, too, that while politics plays a crucial role to becoming a zulkir, mastery of magecraft is equally important, or more so. You wouldn't want to be a zulkir if you can't protect yourself against all sorts of assassins every waking hour of your existence. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2012 : 01:32:31
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Yes, and those she perceived herself, hence her comment that she could "tolerate it for a while." Still, to her, such wards were unfit for a zulkir, the supposed pinnacle of magecraft in their realm.
I'll have to comment here to say that the zulkirs are not the pinnacle of magecraft in Thay. That's the simplistic take that TSR/WotC and the novelists that write for them took because it was easy to do so. The position of zulkir is a political one. It does not and has not ever been a confirmation that you are the best or most powerful wizard of your particular magic school in Thay.
You can resume your normal programming now.
-- George Krashos
Thank you for pointing that out George. That's possible one of the most common misconceptions I've seen. There are plenty of red wizards who quite simply wouldn't want the political headaches... and assasssination attempts as a result thereof... especially if they are members of the researchers faction. Of course, the Zulkir MAY be the most powerful member of their school. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2012 : 04:02:49
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| Would a Red Wizard still be a Red Wizard if they donned a Helmet of Alignment Change and went to a Good alignment? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2012 : 05:57:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Would a Red Wizard still be a Red Wizard if they donned a Helmet of Alignment Change and went to a Good alignment?
Being "good" will likely be seen as weakness in Thay, something many Red Wizards can easily take advantage of. Theoretically, a Red Wizard can be good, but to survive the harsh environment that is Thay, he still needs to put up an evil/neutral/chaotic face in public. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2012 : 06:08:26
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Yes, and those she perceived herself, hence her comment that she could "tolerate it for a while." Still, to her, such wards were unfit for a zulkir, the supposed pinnacle of magecraft in their realm.
I'll have to comment here to say that the zulkirs are not the pinnacle of magecraft in Thay. That's the simplistic take that TSR/WotC and the novelists that write for them took because it was easy to do so. The position of zulkir is a political one. It does not and has not ever been a confirmation that you are the best or most powerful wizard of your particular magic school in Thay.
You can resume your normal programming now.
-- George Krashos
Thank you for pointing that out George. That's possible one of the most common misconceptions I've seen. There are plenty of red wizards who quite simply wouldn't want the political headaches... and assassination attempts as a result thereof... especially if they are members of the researchers faction. Of course, the Zulkir MAY be the most powerful member of their school.
I hope you read my reply to George's post above.
Anyway, it's not just MAY. Most of the Zulkirs ARE the most powerful member of their order, or at the very least, among the top five. If you are pathetic, incompetent, and magically weak, you'll never earn the respect of your fellow zulkirs. (Remember Zola?) If you have money, you're lucky. You can buy yourself a seat in the zulkirate. But money dries up faster than the number of assassins you can deflect. Samas wasn't exactly the most powerful in the Order of Transmutation, yet he was powerful enough to earn the respect of his peers. Same goes for Dmitra, although her rise was due primarily to her political skills and how intimately well she knew Szass Tam. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6647 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2012 : 07:48:40
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My Thay is a much more complex tangle of wizard cabals, power groups, unseen manipulators and entities playing "long", which in turn makes my definition of "powerful" a bit different from the norm - at least in this context. I don't equate levels in the wizard class with "power". I consider that too simplistic. And Samas clearly was not in the "Top 5" transmuters in Thay, but he was zulkir all the same.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2012 : 08:28:36
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Which factors in what I said earlier: gold. Samas had tons of it. He might not be part of the top in his order, but he wasn't a pathetic weakling either. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2012 : 12:42:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Would a Red Wizard still be a Red Wizard if they donned a Helmet of Alignment Change and went to a Good alignment?
Not according to the prestige class |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2012 : 12:53:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Yes, and those she perceived herself, hence her comment that she could "tolerate it for a while." Still, to her, such wards were unfit for a zulkir, the supposed pinnacle of magecraft in their realm.
I'll have to comment here to say that the zulkirs are not the pinnacle of magecraft in Thay. That's the simplistic take that TSR/WotC and the novelists that write for them took because it was easy to do so. The position of zulkir is a political one. It does not and has not ever been a confirmation that you are the best or most powerful wizard of your particular magic school in Thay.
You can resume your normal programming now.
-- George Krashos
Thank you for pointing that out George. That's possible one of the most common misconceptions I've seen. There are plenty of red wizards who quite simply wouldn't want the political headaches... and assassination attempts as a result thereof... especially if they are members of the researchers faction. Of course, the Zulkir MAY be the most powerful member of their school.
I hope you read my reply to George's post above.
Anyway, it's not just MAY. Most of the Zulkirs ARE the most powerful member of their order, or at the very least, among the top five. If you are pathetic, incompetent, and magically weak, you'll never earn the respect of your fellow zulkirs. (Remember Zola?) If you have money, you're lucky. You can buy yourself a seat in the zulkirate. But money dries up faster than the number of assassins you can deflect. Samas wasn't exactly the most powerful in the Order of Transmutation, yet he was powerful enough to earn the respect of his peers. Same goes for Dmitra, although her rise was due primarily to her political skills and how intimately well she knew Szass Tam.
My reply wasn't aimed against anything you said (to tell the truth, I'd skimmed your earlier response and had no idea why George was making the statement... but it struck a chord). I was just glad to see George point it out, because so many times I've heard X Zulkir is the most powerful Y specialist in Thay. In fact, my view of the early red wizards is that they lost a LOT of their best original backers because those chose a more politically correct Zulkir of Necromancers originally (probably due to his Mulan heritage) over other examples. Thus, people like Velsharoon and the Witch-King Zhengyi became renegades. Note, all of what I just said is homebrew but based on the fact that both are ex-renegade red wizards who were powerful necromancers. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2012 : 14:40:12
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Whatever happened to Sabass and Gombdalla in Thay? Gambdalla was more powerful than Lauzoril and could have been the Zulkir of Enchantment. Sabass was an adventurer in his younger days, a Conjurer without peer, and was only 1 level below Szass Tam in "dreams of the red wizards"
Apparently, Nevron took over as Zulkir of Conjuration, can't remember what page in spellbound that was, but I also can't remember if it noted his fate. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2012 : 15:17:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Whatever happened to Sabass and Gombdalla in Thay? Gambdalla was more powerful than Lauzoril and could have been the Zulkir of Enchantment. Sabass was an adventurer in his younger days, a Conjurer without peer, and was only 1 level below Szass Tam in "dreams of the red wizards"
Apparently, Nevron took over as Zulkir of Conjuration, can't remember what page in spellbound that was, but I also can't remember if it noted his fate.
From Spellbound
"Nevron replaced Sabass, the former Zulkir of Conjuration/
Summoning, when Szass Tam#146;s campaign of assassination
virtually eliminated the Researchers faction and
Sabass along with it. Nevron stepped in to fill the void
and is now one of the most aggressively expansionist
zulkirs in Thay."
So, Sabass had replaced the Zulkir who had caused the Salamander war, only to be replace about a decade'ish later by Nevron.
As to Gombdalla, the last I know of her was she was arranging a controlled fey invasion of Aglarond. I'd imagine the salamander war and follow-up Tuigan invasion made her plans either run awry OR she died OR she crept behind the scenes again to be a puppetmaster pulling new strings. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2012 : 15:45:00
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Would a Red Wizard still be a Red Wizard if they donned a Helmet of Alignment Change and went to a Good alignment?
Not according to the prestige class
They only need to be evil to qualify to gain the prestige class...from a rules standpoint I see your argument on that matter. However, once they are IN...they wouldn't fail to have access to their abilities if their alignment was changed would they? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2012 : 18:54:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Would a Red Wizard still be a Red Wizard if they donned a Helmet of Alignment Change and went to a Good alignment?
Not according to the prestige class
They only need to be evil to qualify to gain the prestige class...from a rules standpoint I see your argument on that matter. However, once they are IN...they wouldn't fail to have access to their abilities if their alignment was changed would they?
technically, yes. If you no longer qualify for a prestige class' entry requirements, then you're supposed to lose all abilities (similar to feats). That being said, I once wrote up an NPC based off the Damaran based "twilight rider", Myrddin Viligoth, who was noted as being an ex-red wizard who had turned to the worship of Ilmater. So, for me story always comes first, and unless there is an obvious reason that alignment change would cause them to lose access to abilities... I don't force the issue. For instance, if a blackguard turns good, yeah, he'd lose his abilities. If a Hathran turned evil, the spirits of the land would quit working with her unless she turned Durthan, etc....
If you're interested in seeing the Myrddin build/story, its here.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7576 |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2012 : 00:05:43
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
As to Gombdalla, the last I know of her was she was arranging a controlled fey invasion of Aglarond. I'd imagine the salamander war and follow-up Tuigan invasion made her plans either run awry OR she died OR she crept behind the scenes again to be a puppetmaster pulling new strings.
It's not unusual for zulkirs to just disappear without a trace, without explanation. Such trend started in the very first Zulkirate, where almost half of the vanished, either dead or just hiding, Ed only knows. I once asked Ed what happened to those zulkirs, but apparently, it's NDA. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2012 : 00:50:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
As to Gombdalla, the last I know of her was she was arranging a controlled fey invasion of Aglarond. I'd imagine the salamander war and follow-up Tuigan invasion made her plans either run awry OR she died OR she crept behind the scenes again to be a puppetmaster pulling new strings.
It's not unusual for zulkirs to just disappear without a trace, without explanation. Such trend started in the very first Zulkirate, where almost half of the vanished, either dead or just hiding, Ed only knows. I once asked Ed what happened to those zulkirs, but apparently, it's NDA.
NDA is often the best way to go :)
Leaves much open for gamer use. In a mission in Thay, were the players in need of Magical aid of the highest level, I could introduce them to a shadowy organization in Pyarados with a grudge against the Zulkir of Enchantment led by a shadowy figure, who will have their aid one way or the other :p
If the players decide against working with her, I would merely offer dozens of magical items and proof of her good will towards them. Once whatever the mission they were on is complete, her spell will end and they will realize that she never made those promises and they were in fact all enchanted into doing her bidding, although they may have picked up a nice item or two along the way that breaks or protects against enchantment.
Sets up a nice grudge against a powerful foe, and the next quest, I know they are going to be looking into finding more protections against enchantments :)
In any case, we usually find out what becomes of them an edition down the road. Hell, I never expected to hear of "lord Shadow" again after they moved to the demiplane of shadow "forever", but I managed to use it in some of my quests when I wanted to give my higher level players some netherese items......And down the road, I got some nice new info and great books when Ed decided what to do with them for real :p |
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Thay and Szas
