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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
 Posted - 10 May 2012 : 21:50:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Even as lead designer of Menzoberranzan, I was completely oblivious to Rise of the Underdark, and its associated adventure and novel content.
Ummm...well, that is silly!
It would have been better if you had been able to put something as simple as:
"The Drow Houses are quiet these days...for some reason not conducting nearly as much House to House intrigue and open war."
Something at least.
I have to agree. WotC has not shown any reluctance to use NDAs (just a statement, not a knock), so hitting freelancers with NDAs and then letting them tie their similar material into a larger theme seems like an obvious course of action.
Edit: typo.  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 10 May 2012 22:28:27 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2012 : 21:56:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I have to agree. WotC has not shown any reluctance to use NDAs (just a statement, not a knock), so hitting freelancers with NDAs and then letting them tie their similar material into a large theme seems like an obvious course of action.
That's a good point.
Freelancers have consistently not let the cat out of the bag on a bunch of Realms-related work previously. They do drop hints of the "there's something coming that might be interesting" sort, but that only serves to ignite interest, in my opinion.
I wonder if this wasn't one of those midway course corrections, where work on Menzo was well underway before someone thought about Rise of the Underdark. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2012 : 01:45:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
It doesn’t surprise me that Ed didn’t know about Rise of the Underdark. Sadly, Wizards of the Coast prefers to keep their freelancers ignorant of the big picture, even on projects where collaboration would be highly beneficial. Even as lead designer of Menzoberranzan, I was completely oblivious to Rise of the Underdark, and its associated adventure and novel content.
It's a shame that there appears to be such a disconnect between the various branches of game-design at Wizards.
I can only imagine the kinds of more consistently viable D&D-lore/Realmslore that would be generated by these branches working more in synch.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Nilus Reynard
Learned Scribe
Canada
137 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2012 : 20:04:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I'm not usually one to rant. But I just cannot even begin to address how Eldrizzter the Spellscarred is utterly too wrong on too many levels. It is the final sign, to me the Realms I once loved have now truly fallen and been replaced by some overly-animated World of Wizards version.
Sadly, I have to agree. |
Nilus Reynard
Doom Master of Beshaba, Hand of Despair.
P24 Hm CN
(2nd Edition AD&D) |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2012 : 22:45:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Nilus Reynard
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I'm not usually one to rant. But I just cannot even begin to address how Eldrizzter the Spellscarred is utterly too wrong on too many levels. It is the final sign, to me the Realms I once loved have now truly fallen and been replaced by some overly-animated World of Wizards version.
Sadly, I have to agree.
Answer, answers for the confused.
*holds up cup*
No seriously, I was following this pretty good for a bit, but then got lost with respect to these two posts.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2012 : 22:52:44
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Agree 100% with the current line of discussion.
I find it ludicrous that people designing products (and being the lead!) are not 'in the loop'. Thats a very dim forshadowing of whats in store for us - how can you maintain continuity, when MOST of the writers haven't a clue whats going on?
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
As for Elminster as a Drow:
I have no feeling on it any longer. I'm rather numb to the direction the Realms is going in...not antagonistic mind you; just a apathetic wait and see feeling I guess.
I'm there, dude; definitely feeling your pain.
I can't even remain in grognard-mode for more then a couple of hours. I was in a huff when I posted this thread, and was like *meh* a couple of hours later, and now I am completely indifferent. I am not sure if thats good or bad.
quote:
Originally posted by Apex
The drow have become an overused plot hook and I would be just as happy if they were permanently written out of the Realms.
In principle, I would agree with you.
However, I am going to don my Devil's Advocate hat (I haven't done that in awhile)...
When they change everything, we bitch and complain. When they keep feeding us "the same old garbage", we piss and moan.
How are they supposed to make us happy, when we don't even seem to know what we want? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2012 : 23:05:22
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quote:
When they change everything, we bitch and complain. When they keep feeding us "the same old garbage", we piss and moan.
How are they supposed to make us happy, when we don't even seem to know what we want?
By reviving some less used plot hook or by introducing changes which are not of colossal proportions, without wiping out things.
You know, the classic ''something in the middle'' of the two extremes you spoke of.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 11 May 2012 23:06:04 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2012 : 04:23:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
When they change everything, we bitch and complain. When they keep feeding us "the same old garbage", we piss and moan.
How are they supposed to make us happy, when we don't even seem to know what we want?
By reviving some less used plot hook or by introducing changes which are not of colossal proportions, without wiping out things.
You know, the classic ''something in the middle'' of the two extremes you spoke of.
Indeed. There is quite a lot of wiggle room betwixt "rehashed plot #16" and "surprise apocalypse XI". And for a long time, WotC, and TSR before them, did a lot of good stuff in that wiggle room. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2012 : 04:59:33
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I wasn't actually agreeing with that bit of logic, I was merely pointing-out the conundrums designers face. We - as a group - are rarely happy with much these days.
For instance, rather then try to look at what good could come of this Elminster-as-Drow plotline, I immediately jumped on the attack, which I am sorry I did. We have become 'trigger-happy' when it comes to the Realms.
I am still not happy about it, but that doesn't mean they can't make it work. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 May 2012 05:00:59 |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2012 : 05:18:25
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Well, I think in part Elminster, and I do admit I am not as well versed with the fellow as many here, has fallen into the trap that many fantasy characters do. It's the arms race of escolation.
I for one would be happy with seeing the Saige of Shadowdale having to slip through a tankled web of intrigue, not being able to reveal who he really is, and not being able to display his magical might, as that would disturb the landscape too much. One where we get to see Elminster as the wise, sly, fellow that he is supposed to be, instead of a power house of magical might. I mean, I've not see the man forced to take on the burden of balancing act to keep some Gods war from spilling over and lots of folks being killed as good as an epic battle of magical might.
And I'm only using the Drow, because Lolth fills the point of a logical argument. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2012 : 05:26:56
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I kind of like it, because it follows my initial logical primace that if Schar could have hated Moonbow, and used Lolth back then to get at her. It’s only natural, even if this primace doesn’t hold, that Lolth one constently trying to become more powerful would go after a weave, as it would greatly adhance her own powers.
Are the Drow over used, after a fashion, but to my knowledge this is the first time Mr. Greenwood has given them serious attention; perhaps his attention will greatly improve both upon their treatment, and how other authors deal with them in the future. I am unfortunately, not gifted with the power of forsight, and am reluctant to say yay, or nay, about something where in I have little data.
My advise therefore, is before one invests major emotional currency into the subject that they wait and see what this is, before judgement is past.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2012 : 05:40:42
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Many elven cultures - mostly notably Sylvan elves - are NOT monogamous. Deities certainly don't have to be.
I think monogamy might be something (Eladrin) elves picked-up from humans, and in the Realms it isn't even expected amongst them, either. I suppose it's an out-growth of advanced culture (beyond the tribal level). Marriage was (in both game and RW) something that came about amongst nobility and other wealthy folk to remove questions of inheritance - 'poor folk' only started practicing it relatively recently. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2012 : 15:30:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
Are the Drow over used, after a fashion, but to my knowledge this is the first time Mr. Greenwood has given them serious attention; perhaps his attention will greatly improve both upon their treatment, and how other authors deal with them in the future.
Actually, the first drow sourcebook we have was written by Ed -- the original, 2E, FR-specific The Drow of the Underdark. It's an earlier 2E source. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2012 : 19:02:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
Are the Drow over used, after a fashion, but to my knowledge this is the first time Mr. Greenwood has given them serious attention; perhaps his attention will greatly improve both upon their treatment, and how other authors deal with them in the future.
Actually, the first drow sourcebook we have was written by Ed -- the original, 2E, FR-specific The Drow of the Underdark. It's an earlier 2E source.
Corrected then, hence to my knowledge, but in either case, perhaps he see's them in need of an overhall.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Calmar
Acolyte
49 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2012 : 22:34:42
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| What's the matter with Rise of the Underdark? |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2012 : 22:39:58
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In of itself, nothing that I know of. Some folks think that the drow are getting to much attention. I can't say much on that, as I don't know.
The thrust of the issue, originally, was that some people were unhappy with Elmenster becoming a drow, and some with the idea that Lolth trying to take control of the weave. To be honest, I'm suprised more aren't trying to do the same, Imean why isn't Bane taking steps to secure it as well? |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2012 : 01:50:05
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Because not every god(dess) can be the deity of magic.
Some deities, because of what they represent, could have more affinity than others with the ways of shaping raw energies into a more organic and less destructive system, into something that makes it easier to harness the power of magic. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 14 May 2012 01:51:34 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2012 : 01:58:43
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| -Given how often the deity of magic is targeted for attack, hurt, killed, and everything else, it's not really all it's cracked up to be. Plus, with all of the constraints put on the mantle, it's akin to what Genie says in Alladin regarding his situation. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 14 May 2012 01:59:49 |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2012 : 13:35:15
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| Frankly I think it make sense for Elminsiter to become a drow as Lolth is the greatest threat to the resurrection of Mystra right now and truth be told I ll had enough of the goddess of Magic getting killed already so hopefully Lolth will fail miserably. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2012 : 13:50:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Frankly I think it make sense for Elminsiter to become a drow as Lolth is the greatest threat to the resurrection of Mystra right now and truth be told I ll had enough of the goddess of Magic getting killed already so hopefully Lolth will fail miserably.
Well, according to what THO wrote, Ed didn't know about the Rise of the Underdark when he came up with the idea. So I doubt that there will be a consistent relation between these two things, if any.
However, personally, the only reason I see for Elminster turning into a drow (at least in relation to this new RSE) is that he could have a better chance to get direct insight about Lolth's new plan in his new form.
I'm wondering how this could help him in rallying the War Wizards though... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 11:02:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Frankly I think it make sense for Elminsiter to become a drow as Lolth is the greatest threat to the resurrection of Mystra right now and truth be told I ll had enough of the goddess of Magic getting killed already so hopefully Lolth will fail miserably.
Well, according to what THO wrote, Ed didn't know about the Rise of the Underdark when he came up with the idea. So I doubt that there will be a consistent relation between these two things, if any.
However, personally, the only reason I see for Elminster turning into a drow (at least in relation to this new RSE) is that he could have a better chance to get direct insight about Lolth's new plan in his new form.
I'm wondering how this could help him in rallying the War Wizards though...
Yeah but surely Ed will work this new info into his next novel, I think it would help make it more interesting.
As for rallying the war wizards well... awkward.
Still ol Drizzt has been running around and being heroic for more than a century now so they should be willing to accept the possibility that it might be another goodly "drow". |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 12:07:39
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quote:
Still ol Drizzt has been running around and being heroic for more than a century now so they should be willing to accept the possibility that it might be another goodly "drow".
Drizzt has never been the only one. However I think it'll be hard for the War Wizards to buy the ''drow can be goodly'' thing while they are wreaking havoc across the land. The Wizards could think Elminster as a spy/deceiver or something, not knowing who he actually is (after all, he is going to inhabit a drow body so it'll be hard for them to use things like true vision to understand who this drow is). We'll see. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 15 May 2012 12:08:38 |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 12:48:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Still ol Drizzt has been running around and being heroic for more than a century now so they should be willing to accept the possibility that it might be another goodly "drow".
Drizzt has never been the only one. However I think it'll be hard for the War Wizards to buy the ''drow can be goodly'' thing while they are wreaking havoc across the land. The Wizards could think Elminster as a spy/deceiver or something, not knowing who he actually is (after all, he is going to inhabit a drow body so it'll be hard for them to use things like true vision to understand who this drow is). We'll see.
I did,nt mean to imply that he was but he is by far the most famous though.
As for your second point that is certainly something El will have to contend with though frankly its not like the War Wizards ever liked or trusted him much anyway. should be entertaining to watch though ehh |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 17:00:52
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I think I see how this is going t turn out (or, at least, the way it should turn out). I think the stories between RotU and Elminster-goes-Drow SHOULD be connected - its the only way this will be any good, IMHO.
I think Ed had a (great) idea about how to restore The Weave. I think he also has some notions about 'Mytsra', but I won't say more because if I am right I will be spoiling a great ending to an epic yarn.
Keep in-mind neither 'Mystra' nor her Weave has been 'whole' since the Fall of Netheril - she used to control BOTH aspects of magic, and she used to be a helluva lot more neutral.
I think what Elminster wants and what Lolth wants (and what Shar wants) aren't all that different - two very different beings can be working together - perhaps unknowingly - toward a mutual goal. Its just the final outcome that they all want to come out differently.
If you need an ally against Shar, who better then someone in her league? Elminster being a drow just means the Old Mage is much smarter then we gave him credit for.
And he's certainly not beyond a good backstabbing or two.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 17:29:09
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| Heh, it'd be hilarious to see Elminster backstabbing Lolth... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 17:40:37
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I think it'll be more of a "be careful what you wish for" situation, then an overt backstabbing. Elmister's too clever to try out-drowing the goddess of drow. I think he just knows more about the final outcome then he will let on.
I also think he would make a good candidate for "the Prince of Lies", except he is smarter - he knows how to spin the truth. Its never about what you say, but rather, how you say it. El's got a thousand years of out-smarting wiley political-types - no small feat. If anyone is an epic BS-er, its him.
So anyway, I think Elminster would honor any deal made to the letter, but that just makes him more like a devil... and devil's always outsmart demons one-on-one. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 17:51:21
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I get your point. Well, even though trying to out outright betray Lolth would probably lead to a failure, it'd still be funny to see her somehow deceived or fooled, possibly in a subtle way.
I just find it amusing to see ''big baddies'' beaten at their own games, especially if it happens in a theatrical and stylish way. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 15 May 2012 17:52:01 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 18:42:42
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If things go the way you’re suggesting, Markus, I hope Mystra manages to use all the artifacts collected by Lloth (and Shar and possibly Asmodeus or whomever else amongst the deities wants to control all magic) as a means of drawing Lloth’s divine power into herself.
That could be one way Mystra reboots her power and it could serve to make her into a properly neutral deity of magic.
It might diminish those other deities too and (hopefully) make them settle down and get back into the background where they belong.
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Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 19:52:11
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Note I said 'Mystra' - I used the double-hyphens for a reason.
We, too, should "be careful what we wish for".
Like I said, I think this could really turn out well, and cover (fix) a few different lore-gaffs in the process. I had more here, but I'm hesitant to accidentally reveal spoilers (if I'm right).
Either way, Ed having the idea FIRST, and WotC running with it changes things quite a bit - I no longer think of it as a 'stunt' (at least not initially, until someone saw the crossover potential).
I regret my initial knee-jerk reaction; I should have learned by now to trust Ed's judgement.
EDIT: BTW, I don't blame him for the negative responses to this - they need someone who knows how to write decent copy for those back-cover blurbs...
"Both he and his goddess betrayed by the only one that could help them, the Old Mage of Shadowdale finds himself taking the form of that which Faerun fears most... but also what it desperately needs in it's darkest hour. To save the Realms, Elminster must not only know his enemy, he must become one of them..."
See what I did there? Big difference between tantalizing potential buyers, and writing a 'Cliffs Notes' edition of the book itself. Sometimes revealing less does MORE. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 May 2012 03:50:15 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 20:21:30
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Myself, I wouldn’t go so far as to say with confidence that we know Ed had the idea first.
It’s certainly possible, but for me there isn’t good reason to conclude WotC ran with an idea of Ed’s, because nobody who can speak with any authority on the subject has come forward and said, “Yeah, we saw what Ed was doing and expanded on it.”
It’s just as possible someone at WotC came up with the whole Rise of the Underdark thing on their own. I’m willing to bet Ed was wrapping up the final draft of Elminster Enraged before WotC was getting down to work on Rise of the Underdark.
Not saying you’re wrong, Markus. In fact I hope you’re right. WotC should mine Ed for as many good ideas as they can.
I’m more concerned with Ed’s initial idea(s) for raising up Mystra, if any, being sidelined in favor of a set of ideas someone at WotC came up with later. I say this because we have past examples of times when authors get partway or even all the way done with a novel, only to have it shelved or sidelined because of a shift/change in strategy on WotC’s part.
For now I see Rise and the culmination of Ed’s latest trilogy as two things happening in parallel. I hope Ed gets to continue with his future plans for Mystra, whatever they may be. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Elminster a Drow?!
