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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Jun 2012 : 02:20:11
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Specifically, for dogs. I've been searching around, but can't seem to find much. There was this rather low-quality pic of what I had thought may be practical canine armor. Anybody know anything about the subject or where I might find accurate pics of historical pieces? Or even fantastical ones?
edit: this too
more views of the first.
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Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 04 Jun 2012 04:00:33
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2012 : 02:31:49
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Only thing I can say is what my grandfather used to tell me about his hunting dogs:
Heavy leather collar, padded supple leather "jacket" (which also covered the back of their neck) and somewhat loose leather wrapping on their legs at the bottom. I don't have any pictures though. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2012 : 02:47:44
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For dogs, the collar could very well be spiked adored, makes it harder for humans or animals to successfully attack throat.
There of course in the game nothing preventing some types a chain barding as long as does not weigh too much and does not restrict movement. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2012 : 04:04:21
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I found this too. Not sure if it's authentic or from what period. Looks cumbersome.
Simple, yet practical. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 04 Jun 2012 04:11:45 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2012 : 06:45:30
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| On a related note, has anyone ever made/played a Master of Hounds-type character for 3.5? I found one over at Enworld, and another at Paizo, but I'd be interested in seeing any more versions. I suppose it might not be too frightening to high level, large or non-humanoids, but I'd be afraid of a Bounty Hunter who had almost supernatural control over a pack of armored mastiffs or something. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 04 Jun 2012 20:16:20 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2012 : 07:07:39
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| I did have a DM sick the Master of the Hunt (from 1st Edition) on me once! THAT my friend was a SUCK situation! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2012 : 07:15:05
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I'm afraid that was a little before my time, Dalor. Care to elaborate?
Also, what did your grandfather hunt with his dogs? Taking down hogs with the dogs was popular where I lived in Fla. Can't think of anything else you'd need to armor your dog for. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2012 : 07:28:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
I'm afraid that was a little before my time, Dalor. Care to elaborate?
Also, what did your grandfather hunt with his dogs? Taking down hogs with the dogs was popular where I lived in Fla. Can't think of anything else you'd need to armor your dog for.
Yep, wild pigs.
Here in this part of Virginia there was (sort of still is) a HUGE swath of Federal land called here: The Radford Army Ammunition Plant. At one time it was on the tops of lists for first strike here in the U.S. by the Soviets...but anyway...my grandfather often was hire to hunt pigs on it. To find them he often needed dogs, and so he would go with dogs, a true to god boarspear (nasty looking thing!) and a rifle. At range he could get the pigs well enough, but he said if they got close he was afraid to kill his dogs with the rifle...
He also wore mesh leggins he had made himself too. He worked at a place here called the Radford Foundry (metal works), but he was a passing well blacksmith and made many things such as Iron cookstoves and such...
On to the Master of the Hunt. In 1st Edition Deities and Demi-Gods, the Master of the Hunt was in the Celtic Mythos...seen here:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10166328/Master%20of%20the%20Hunt.bmp
In the Forgotten Realms, Malar is said to have taken the role of the Master of the Hunt...but I don't stick with that since the Hunter and his pack were summoned by evil. In game stats he had 100 HP and was equal to a 15th level ranger, while his twenty hounds fought as 8 HD creatures and had 30 Hit Points.
He still exists in MY Forgotten Realms, but not as a god of any sort (which I've said was a different god of the hunt that Malar absorbed); but instead he is a servant of Silvanus (from the Celtic Mythos also in Deities and Demi-Gods).
I'm actually going to feature him I think in my new Five Shires work.
EDIT: in my own Forgotten Realms, Cernunnos is the "Real Name" of the Master of the Hunt...a pale shadow still residing in Faerun from when a long time ago Cernunnos came and battled dragons and giants to a standstill and took as his people those who created the Citadel of the Raven.
I really need to get back on that project! Perhaps when the Five Shires is done!
Cernunnos to me was a Fey Interloper who became a powerful god, and is actually the reason many Celtic Mythos (from the Deities and Demi-Gods book...not real history) came to be in the Forgotten Realms to start with. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 04 Jun 2012 07:44:12 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2012 : 20:10:51
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| I guess it's not as cool as having a six-hundred pound extraplanar panther in your pocket (and a unicorn too), but I think it has potential for a good mid-level encounter. Anybody seen The Grey or the Highlander episode Leader of the Pack? |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 04 Jun 2012 20:35:48 |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
503 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2012 : 20:47:17
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Believe it or not, Fellfire, but I actually went to the Higgins Armory Museum is Worchest, MA when I was younger, and there was a canine mannequin display with actual plate armor for a dog! 
http://organicarmor.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/dog-armor.jpg |
Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2012 : 20:51:32
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| Hah. I grew up in Worcester (or Wistah, as we call it round heah.), but I have not been to Higgins since I was very young. Thanks. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 04 Jun 2012 20:52:58 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2012 : 22:13:10
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| My first thought when viewing those pics: "nope, it's Chuck Testa". Ten thousand curses upon Rhett and Link for infecting my wardogs with this meme. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 04 Jun 2012 22:13:46 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2012 : 00:21:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
I found this too. Not sure if it's authentic or from what period. Looks cumbersome.
I like that one. Simple style. Should be able to be duplicated fairly easily by an armorer.
Those particular links/mini-plates might be a little too thick and heavy, though.
It rather looks like a jousting horse's armored coat, doesn't it?
The legs definitely need something, even it's just leather greaves.
I've always wondered about the trade-off between leaving a dog's feet bare and fully sensitive and agile, vs. shoeing them up for extra protection from burning, freezing, bites, sharps, etc.
Methinks that bounty hunter Roddy McGristle's (Sojourn) dogs might've benefitted from some sort of armor suits like these. That way, maybe the drow might've not've whacked one of the dogs so easily, and therefore could've avoided the full ire of the big man.
There's a scene in Neverwinter in which an aboleth shows off by assembling a dozen umber hulks and having then stand at attention as an honor guard. I wonder what level of Master of the Hunt that guy was? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 05 Jun 2012 04:39:47 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2012 : 02:54:22
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I would imagine that most attacks would come from above as men hacked downwards; some might aim for the head, throat, or chest if the animal was charging or leaping upwards in attack, and a metal plate on the throat and chest might certainly help deflect a spear thrust. A man on horseback wouldn't be likely to hit a wardog unless he's swinging some kind of spear, lance, or polearm; and the wardog in turn wouldn't be foolish enough to approach a warhorse, especially an armored one with an armored rider. I doubt wardogs would charge a spear-and-shield wall, although they might be released to wreak some leg-biting havoc on a defensive formation which has already been breached. And of course an animal weighed down with armor would tend to stay lower to the ground.
I don't think shoeing a wardog should be necessary, plus it would slow the animal down considerably. Some kind of light armor jacket over the legs would probably be a bit of a tradeoff between protection and mobility, perhaps suitable for "heavier" deployments and larger animals. I don't know how wardogs were deployed in actual warfare, but I imagine their advantages are comparatively low cost, high mobility, and ability to immobilize or take down soft targets. I'm sure there are horrible stories about dog mauling, and they would be highly effective in dispersing formations of archers or halflings - but I think the dogs were not really able to do any hard killing on the battlefield, at least not without human allies and handlers nearby who could press an advantage against their dog-harried opponents. Killer wardogs were probably used for intimidation, security, and police-garrison work then as they are today; they have superb detection abilities. The real value in such dogs is their bark, not their bite.
Why shoe the wardogs? If they're going to be walking across caltrop fields, spiked pits, and boiling lava then they are being mishandled and deployed inappropriately; there are other (and cheaper) units which can be deployed for such tasks. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 05 Jun 2012 03:02:09 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2012 : 04:02:35
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I had hiking boots for my dog, mostly to keep the snow from getting packed between his pads in the mountains of CO. He hated them. Eventually, I found a waxy-like balm we could apply to his feet before setting out on long back-country trails.
Some interesting history here. I wish I could've seen massed formations of armored wardogs disemboweling their enemies. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 05 Jun 2012 04:22:05 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2012 : 04:36:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Why shoe the wardogs?
For the same reason you shoe humans: protection against the elements. Sharps rocks, twigs, pine cones, sticker burrs, etc., can hurt. And rocks get hot over the course of a day. Think about having your dog walk patrol with you on the parapets of a castle wall and his paws singing on the sun-baked cobblestone pathway up top. I live in Houston, TX, where it's hot & humid 8 or 9 months out of the year, so I wouldn't know this, but I hear that it snows and ices over up north, and that's gotta be tough on paw pads, too. 
Most dogs hate shoes, though. It's natural for them to be able to feel the ground--good or bad. They are instinctively wired for proprioception of the ground, but shoes deaden some of their sense of feel, and that just feels awkward for them.
But I'd rather re-train a dog so it could be protected in more environments than have it remain super-comfortable but unable to actually go anywhere semi-hostile with me. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2012 : 11:00:06
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Barring the likelihood of magical wardog bardings, there are all sorts of spells which offer temporarily useful augmentation to an armored beast. Low-level spells (mostly priest spells) can increase endurance, resist the elements, and reduce encumbrance for many hours at a time; other spells can be used to grant exceptional speed and strength for combat durations. Of course, not everybody has plentiful access to spells (unless you play 3E/4E ...), but I imagine most large military formations have access to low-level magics when needed. And no doubt there are special kits and prestige classes for wardog handlers which grant such abilities to their beloved man-eating pets.
I suppose those annoying elves craft elven chain barding for their cooshees (elven dogs) from elven steel. Dwarves probably plate as much metal as possible onto their warbeasts. Halfling infantry (haha) might make much use of leathercrafted armor bardings. I wonder if adamantite drider barding also exists.
As far as shoeing ... again, I think mobility and agility are more important to wardogs than heavy protection. If they can't move faster than unarmored men then they lose their main combat advantage, they also become easier targets for ranged attackers. Again, I think it's generally better to send steelshod humans into treacherous or hard terrain which would lame unshoed animals. Why order your dogs to run through fire? Why would you need dog patrols on castle parapets? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 05 Jun 2012 11:11:16 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2012 : 22:38:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
As far as shoeing ... again, I think mobility and agility are more important to wardogs than heavy protection. If they can't move faster than unarmored men then they lose their main combat advantage, they also become easier targets for ranged attackers. Again, I think it's generally better to send steelshod humans into treacherous or hard terrain which would lame unshoed animals.
I generally agree, based on dogs' instinctive behavior. It really is hard to teach a dog to tolerate shoes!
Even in the modern RW military, shoes are omitted. Body armor is considered sufficient.
quote:
Why order your dogs to run through fire? Why would you need dog patrols on castle parapets?
I wouldn't run a dog through fire. But lots of ground surfaces have high heat coefficients, meaning they absorb lots and lots of heat, and that heat can easily be conducted right into a dog's paw pads.
I'd patrol a dog with a handler just about anywhere I thought a patrol was necessary. You'd check for people trying to come up over the wall, right? You check to see if people are trying to scurry across the parapet to get to the next stairwell down, too, right? Dogs' superior senses would give any patrol a sort of early warning, not to mention the greater speed in actually running down any suspicious individuals. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2012 : 23:58:10
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
I generally agree, based on dogs' instinctive behavior. It really is hard to teach a dog to tolerate shoes!
It can be done though. It's a classic case of Nature v. Nurture.
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Even in the modern RW military, shoes are omitted. Body armor is considered sufficient.
If RW is real-world, I have yet to go into combat barefooted. If it's realms-world, the ferrier shoes horses so, the common sense filter would say some sort of light footgear for wardogs, especially if ridden by halflings, may have been developed at some point.
quote:
.... But lots of ground surfaces have high heat coefficients, meaning they absorb lots and lots of heat, and that heat can easily be conducted right into a dog's paw pads.
Absolutely correct. I live in an environment where the summer temps routinely reach 110F (44C) and even as early in the summer as two weeks ago, my dogs were beginning to experience the discomfort of hot trails by the time we finished our hike. The result was a sort of prancing gait they adapted to minimize their ground contact time on the particularly hot portions and didn't appear as if able to provide the power to hurl itself at the throat of an individual.
Good Hunting!
PS - Sorry for the long absence, sometimes, reality has to take priority.
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"Firepower - if it's not working, you're not using enough." ~ Military Proverb
"If at first you do succeed, you must've rolled a natural 20!" |
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Questions about Barding
