| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 18:29:04
|
I tried finding something on it, both using Google and searching Candlekeep and Wizards' boards... Nothing.
Anything was ever said about how drow view incest, given their rather free outlook on the other aspects? What are your ideas?
Zi
|
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
|
|
The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 18:35:51
|
| Seemed like something that may not be looked down on , I seem to remember one of Drizzt's sisters trying to seduce him in some kind of ceremonial orgy when he was in fighters school. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
|
Edited by - The Red Walker on 20 Jan 2011 21:09:14 |
 |
|
|
Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 18:45:56
|
| I think they "do it" with whomever they like, be it a relative or not. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 18:46:28
|
No, that was not his sister who did that- it was one of the female graduates. Vierna simply witnessed his refusal. And Malice even scolded her when Drizzt was born for noting the "beauty" of his eyes- something to the effect of "when he is grown and looks through you with those eyes, remember on your life that he is your brother!"
The only instance I cna think of where incest is even thought of is Sabal and Greyanna in WofSQ 1: when Greyanna speculates that Phaeraun might have been kinky with his sister Sabal to help her rise in favor over her. Otherwise, I can't recall any mention of it.
As a side note: I don't think they mind it too much if it's in the extended family (ie, cousin, aunt, etc.) but in the immediate family seems to be taboo. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
Edited by - Alystra Illianniis on 20 Jan 2011 18:54:17 |
|
|
|
Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 19:05:19
|
(I saw this topic and was like, "srsly? dude!")
I wouldn't be surprised that you didn't find anything, Z. Incest is not one of those things that you can expect to see WotC addressing, either directly or indirectly--and the fantasy genre as a whole tends away from it. Wholesome vanilla sex is still not much discussed, let alone serious kinks and perversions. To an extent, it's a little bit the audience (WotC generally aims at teenagers, not mature adults) and to an equal extent, it's just inappropriate.
All that said, to answer the OP, there is a strong biological imperative against mating with members of your own family, since it produces weaker offspring than it might otherwise have done. I imagine that it does happen among the drow, and possibly with more frequency than among surface civilizations, but it would still be quite rare and the subject of gossip/scandal (i.e. stigmatized in much the same way).
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
|
|
|
Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 19:11:31
|
It's an interesting question... does an evil culture view incest as taboo?
Drow do use sex for just "play" and pleasure, and even to hold a certain type of power over others (remembering the several "lesbian" interactions in various books where one partner is clearly dominant), but I still think they would tend to view incest as taboo.
After all, they'd certainly know about the genetics problems involved, and as a society they'd want powerful offspring.
As a question of power... their power structures are already very clear in drow society, and sex is more about pleasure parties and love-play.
Drow involved in incest for play or pleasure, I don't see that either.
Honestly, I'm thinking it would be very taboo, looked down upon with disgust (and worse for females). Females who couldn't get sex outside of the family would be looked upon with derision and scorn, and the male involved would be seen as even weaker than the weak female perpetrator. The pragmatics of wanting healthy offspring and knowing about genetics problems that can result... it'd be taboo IMO.
That said, would it happen? Perhaps but it would likely be very rare, just like other forms of sexual deviance.
|
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
|
|
|
Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 19:24:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Wholesome vanilla sex is still not much discussed, let alone serious kinks and perversions.
This made me giggle, it's true to a degree.
But let's also remember that some novels have touched upon pervy stuff, particularly with the drow.
Several "whoa!" moments for me were the heavily implied "lesbian service" roles for certain females that serve more powerful females. And the equally interesting drow males "being taken" by a powerful female.
Of course, they'll never do a novel scene with "OMG SEX" in it for exactly the reasons you mentioned. But those few times where things are mentioned, yowza!
And we can't forget about more "vanilla" but slightly kinky (as seen by our culture) sexual activities in various books by Ed Greenwood. Parties, festhalls, relationships involving some of the Chosen of Mystra... definitely a lot of sex involved in our Realms, and a good portion of it isn't missionary style with the lights out. 
|
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 19:42:44
|
| Right you are! I seem to recall Triel's practices being questioned more than once in that regard. Liriel had some snarky thoughts about her "preferences" when told about being sent to Arach'Tinilith, and one of the other priestesses (I think it was Quenthel) had similar thoughts about her regarding the fact that Jeggred was her only offspring. (And likely to STAY that way...) And Danifae and Halisstra comes to mind. Maybe Phaeraun and Ryld, too, but not sure on that count. They just seemed really "close" for a couple of males.... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 20:03:21
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Right you are! I seem to recall Triel's practices being questioned more than once in that regard. Liriel had some snarky thoughts about her "preferences" when told about being sent to Arach'Tinilith, and one of the other priestesses (I think it was Quenthel) had similar thoughts about her regarding the fact that Jeggred was her only offspring. (And likely to STAY that way...) And Danifae and Halisstra comes to mind. Maybe Phaeraun and Ryld, too, but not sure on that count. They just seemed really "close" for a couple of males....
Ooh, Phaeraun and Ryld possibly together... intriguing.
Sort of a big side divergence from the original topic, but would drow females get "turned on" by watching two males "at play" in the same way that a lot of modern men love lesbian porn?
|
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 20:45:28
|
My only thought on the matter is that women barely tolerate men in Drow Society...and prefer only the strongest and most fit male they can lay their hands on so that their progeny can out-survive the competition. So no, I don't think incest would be looked kindly on at all.
That aside, and not promoting incest here, but we have no way of knowing how such practices would affect a magical race. Our own genetic research has shown that all humanity has one common female ancestor...and we aren't a bunch of malformed and mentally incapable drooling sex legged freaks of nature.
I have actually portrayed several evil races as partaking of this in the past (including the Drow before I knew more about them) and used it to explain some of their evil tendancies because of minds shaken by genetic pool narrowing...
Play it like you want, but I'd still think now that I've read more on the Drow that the Matrons would NOT like the idea of their children breeding a lesser generation... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 21:32:09
|
Ho ho ho! Nae, Alystra, thus spake Vierna, aye, but ye forget'est the the wisdom of Malice. Malice noted well the incestuous gaze of Drizz't sister, knowing well the penchants of their fell race. However, Malice had plans of her own for Vierna, which we all know now so well.
Indeed, drow are an incestuous lot. The, hem, circular array of their family trees was in ancient times *required*, so that Corellon's Curse, attached to Wedonai's blood, could be fully taken advantage of...
In the larger cities of drow-kind, incestuous mating is overseen by House leaders (both male and female) and careful genealogies are kept, to take full advantage of Wedonai's blood. Drow children frequently engage in 'adult' play, usually with their immediate brethren, as these are the only drow that can be some-what trusted.
Aye, drow partake of all manner of fleshy pleasure, and most oft twixt siblings.
Ye scribes that are familiar with 'Earth-genetics' t'would be advised to dismiss such fancy; Ed of the Greenwood, expert on all things Eathly and Torilian, has stated that such science dost nae exist in Abeir-Toril.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
No, that was not his sister who did that- it was one of the female graduates. Vierna simply witnessed his refusal. And Malice even scolded her when Drizzt was born for noting the "beauty" of his eyes- something to the effect of "when he is grown and looks through you with those eyes, remember on your life that he is your brother!"
The only instance I cna think of where incest is even thought of is Sabal and Greyanna in WofSQ 1: when Greyanna speculates that Phaeraun might have been kinky with his sister Sabal to help her rise in favor over her. Otherwise, I can't recall any mention of it.
As a side note: I don't think they mind it too much if it's in the extended family (ie, cousin, aunt, etc.) but in the immediate family seems to be taboo.
|
Edited by - Erdrick Stormedge on 20 Jan 2011 21:34:19 |
|
|
|
Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 21:36:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Our own genetic research has shown that all humanity has one common female ancestor...and we aren't a bunch of malformed and mentally incapable drooling sex legged freaks of nature.
Just a quick aside, if you're talking about "Mitochondrial Eve" then there were several significant problems with that research and its conclusions. Since the 70s, we've discovered genetic heteroplasmy (more than one mtDNA sequence in the same person), which makes comparing two individuals somewhat tricky. Additionally, the original study assumes that mtDNA will mutate at a consistent rate; but pedigree rate genetics show that mutations aren't consistent at all. Among other things, we cannot conclusively say that Mito-Eve was everyone's great-great-xxx-grandmother any more than we can really know exactly when she lived (she might be 50,000 to 500,000 years old). Anyway... sorry for the side tangent, just wanted to note the debate and how it's not all that certain. |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
|
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 21:49:10
|
Drow are social darwinists, any form of weakness is abominable to them, I don't see it
maybe the drow that worship Ghaunadaur
of other elven races fey'ri probably are into this |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 22:12:56
|
@ Erdrick- Actually, Vierna's exact thoughts regarding her baby brother in Homeland were never explicitly stated as "incestuos", nor did it even really infer that she was thinking anything of the sort beyond noicing the unusual color of his eyes. It was Malice herself who apperantly assumed she was thinking along those lines, and snarled at her over it. Which might be an indication that such things happen, or it might just be a warning against any blasphemous ideas. Vierna even had a moment of "pot calling the kettle black" thoughts about Malice's habits with males, so it's really not much of an inferrence. As to Malice having any "plans" for vierna, I don't know where you got that, as I've read the book SEVERAL times over, annever found anything of the kind.
I don't know where you would think that drow children get their "play" with siblings, or that such is either encouraged or "overseen" for ANY reason. I've read through just about every source on drow at least once or twice- most of them more- and never saw this to bethe case, either in source books or novels. The ONLY place it's hinted at at all is in Dissolution and Homeland, and even there as a strict taboo. So- no, drow don't appear to approve of incest at all. Not that there are not a FEW deviants, but most would likely consider it disgusting at the least, and blasphemous at worst.
I've done a lot of thinking on this myself, for story purposes (there are some disturbing incidents in one of my tales, about just such familial relations) so BELIEVE me, I've done plenty of research into drow- erm, "social" relationships and interactions (I think you can get the point) and there is NOTHING indicating that they do this as a practice, even in the third-party books like Plot and Poison. Sex, yes. Incest? Highly doubtful. Even if it was to "take advantage of Wendonai's taint" it would only be between cousins or aunts or uncles at MOST. Otherwise, they probably feel the same about it as all other elves- meaning, they are opposed to it. (After all, they WERE elves FIRST!)
Edit: and it was Malice who said the quote from earlier- Vierna did not actually say anything about it, other than to comment on his eyes. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
Edited by - Alystra Illianniis on 20 Jan 2011 22:14:46 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 22:17:58
|
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Sort of a big side divergence from the original topic, but would drow females get "turned on" by watching two males "at play" in the same way that a lot of modern men love lesbian porn?
I'd say it varies. I know more than one female IRL that rather enjoys seeing two men together -- and I know other females that have no interest at all in seeing that. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 22:48:30
|
Last year I questioned Ed regarding the practice of homosexuality among drow; he gave me a blanket answer about their view of sexuality in general, which is "You can get away with anything so long as you don't get caught. Females can get away with more than males".
Drizzt's sister did try to come onto him after he ran away from the other graduate, and he rejected her. Which I get; the westermark effect, imprinting. There's science behind that. What always struck me as weird was when questioned as to why he turned down the first drow graduate who tried to get him in bed, his response was "I care nothing for her!" or something to that extend...where did he even get the concept of sex being related to caring/love/emotion? That's learned behavior and he sure as hell wasn't learning it from drow society. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 22:57:55
|
| In his case, he probably learned it from Zaknafein. Who knows what they talked about during all those hours in the tarining room? As for Vierna "coming onto him" I don't think that she was. She seemed merely angry that he had rejected the other fgraduate in the first place- apparently they take these graduation orgi- er, I mean ceremonies quite seriously. She was offering him a chance to go back and uh, "participate", not actually offering him her own attentions, as I read it. When he refused again, she took him to the drider pit- which is probably according to Lolth's laws. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 23:09:00
|
I seem to remember not only letting her robe open up(she was naked underneath), but sitting next to him, putting her hand on his or his leg. Very suggestive behavior. I'd have to look it up and I don't have time right now, as I'm on my way out the door. When I get back I'll check.
And I just don't see him learning it from Zak because I don't see Zak believing it himself. Granted his shacking up with Malice could just be realization that he didn't have much choice, but he never expressed any distaste for laying with her so much as distaste for her in general. Anyway, I'm off. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 00:52:48
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Sort of a big side divergence from the original topic, but would drow females get "turned on" by watching two males "at play" in the same way that a lot of modern men love lesbian porn?
I'd say it varies. I know more than one female IRL that rather enjoys seeing two men together -- and I know other females that have no interest at all in seeing that.
Indeed. There's one same-gender couple who semi-frequently participate in my monthly campaigns, and who often find ways to suggest the use of some Ed-lore pertaining to the subject, in any festhalls the party may visit in their travels. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 01:01:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Sort of a big side divergence from the original topic, but would drow females get "turned on" by watching two males "at play" in the same way that a lot of modern men love lesbian porn?
I'd say it varies. I know more than one female IRL that rather enjoys seeing two men together -- and I know other females that have no interest at all in seeing that.
Agreed. I know some who do get turned on, and some who are repulsed even by the idea alone. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 01:13:09
|
*in her best Churchlady impression* Well isn't that special!
I would suppose for drow that "kissing cousins" (after the second degree), while uncommon aren't viewed too adversely (although I'm sure opinions vary). It's when first degree kin are having sexual relations that the squick factor skyrockets.
It would not surprise me if a great deal of familial sexual abuse (not the same thing as incest) takes place among drow, for the exertion of power and control over someone more than anything else. |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 01:24:57
|
Incest in a fantasy setting is rare, but not unheard of. There's an explicit incestuous scene in Ed Greenwood's Archwizard---between royal brother and sister. And among the Dasati, an evil race in Raymond E. Feist's novels, it is not an issue. Morality is something they absolutely don't have, and so anything that other races may consider immoral or deviant is welcome to them. Narueen, the mother of Valko, a certain Dasati lord, made it plain that in order to establish solid political power, she'd handpick his partners, not caring if they're relatives or not. And when the Dasati men are driven wild by lust, they mate with almost any female within reach, and at times killed the helpless females after.
So, given that the drow society is evil by nature, it's easy to say that incest is a welcome practice. Either done for political reasons, or for sheer pleasure. I don't think having weak siblings is a problem, as the females could just kill their partners or their babies once born; or maybe, when they're fond of their partners, they'd make a ritual that would enable them to avoid pregnancy so they could use their partners whenever they want. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 03:09:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Incest in a fantasy setting is rare, but not unheard of. There's an explicit incestuous scene in Ed Greenwood's Archwizard---between royal brother and sister. And among the Dasati, an evil race in Raymond E. Feist's novels, it is not an issue. Morality is something they absolutely don't have, and so anything that other races may consider immoral or deviant is welcome to them. Narueen, the mother of Valko, a certain Dasati lord, made it plain that in order to establish solid political power, she'd handpick his partners, not caring if they're relatives or not. And when the Dasati men are driven wild by lust, they mate with almost any female within reach, and at times killed the helpless females after.
So, given that the drow society is evil by nature, it's easy to say that incest is a welcome practice. Either done for political reasons, or for sheer pleasure. I don't think having weak siblings is a problem, as the females could just kill their partners or their babies once born; or maybe, when they're fond of their partners, they'd make a ritual that would enable them to avoid pregnancy so they could use their partners whenever they want.
Incest wasn't uncommon about the Valheru, either. Ashen-Shugar fathered Alma-Lodaka, and then with her he fathered Draken-Korin. And it said in the text that relations like that were little more than a point of reference among the Valheru.
Back on topic, I can readily see drow using sexual domination as a form of powerplay. It's almost perfect for drow -- getting sexual release and exercising power over another at the same time. I'm not sure that would extend to incest, but it's not outside the realm of possibility. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 03:29:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I seem to remember not only letting her robe open up(she was naked underneath), but sitting next to him, putting her hand on his or his leg. Very suggestive behavior. I'd have to look it up and I don't have time right now, as I'm on my way out the door. When I get back I'll check.
And I just don't see him learning it from Zak because I don't see Zak believing it himself. Granted his shacking up with Malice could just be realization that he didn't have much choice, but he never expressed any distaste for laying with her so much as distaste for her in general. Anyway, I'm off.
You are partially right, CoA. After looking through that chapter of the book, Vierna was indeed wearing only her open robe- because she had been taking part in the ceremony. But they were simply standing outside the door of the graduation ritual, where he had gone when he became disgusted by what he saw and heard there. She was trying to get him to go back in, but although she was hardly concerned with him seeing her naked, neither was she actively trying to seduce him herself. Her main interested was quite explicitly stated as being angry at his refusal of the High Priestess during the ceremony.
The matter of Zak did come up in the short story in Realms of the Underdark, where Zaknafein spent some time thinking on his past relationship with Malice- and how he had once thought he loved her, even though he knew she did not return the feeling. His feeling later turned to dislike and even hate, simply because he felt trapped in the role their society handed him. But he does seem to have had some affection for her at one time.
In Vierna's conversation with Drizzt outside the graduation ceremony, she asked if he thought Zak cared for their Mother, but she would not have known or even cared about Zak's real feelings, past or present. So it is very possible that the two might have talked about matters of affection while Drizzt trained under him. There is simply no real evidence that any of them ever actually considered the idea of incest at all. Only Greyanna seems to have even contemplated that course with her own brother, in offering him the incentive she THOUGHT her twin Sabal had offered. But even she was wrong. (and clearly a bit deviant, as he simply laughed in her face!) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 03:39:27
|
Hrm. Can't find my copy at the moment. THough I distinctly remember in The Crystal Shard, the copy with the journal entries, Drizzt specifically said that his sister propositioned him. The scene wasn't blatant. It wasn't Vierna ordering Drizzt "Pants down." But it was suggestive. She believed he simply grew nervous about preforming in public and thought he needed some privacy. Seeing as how she was the only priestess around...
This is all from memory, I haven't read the books in several months. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 03:40:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Incest in a fantasy setting is rare, but not unheard of. There's an explicit incestuous scene in Ed Greenwood's Archwizard---between royal brother and sister. And among the Dasati, an evil race in Raymond E. Feist's novels, it is not an issue. Morality is something they absolutely don't have, and so anything that other races may consider immoral or deviant is welcome to them. Narueen, the mother of Valko, a certain Dasati lord, made it plain that in order to establish solid political power, she'd handpick his partners, not caring if they're relatives or not. And when the Dasati men are driven wild by lust, they mate with almost any female within reach, and at times killed the helpless females after.
So, given that the drow society is evil by nature, it's easy to say that incest is a welcome practice. Either done for political reasons, or for sheer pleasure. I don't think having weak siblings is a problem, as the females could just kill their partners or their babies once born; or maybe, when they're fond of their partners, they'd make a ritual that would enable them to avoid pregnancy so they could use their partners whenever they want.
Incest wasn't uncommon about the Valheru, either. Ashen-Shugar fathered Alma-Lodaka, and then with her he fathered Draken-Korin. And it said in the text that relations like that were little more than a point of reference among the Valheru.
Indeed. Morality is an alien notion to the Valheru. They'd do whatever they wanted, however and whenever they wanted because it's their nature and because they had the POWER to do so. Which supports my argument that since the drow has no system of morality and cares nothing except power and dominion, incest will never be an issue. The fact that it's not explicitly shown in novels does not negate its existence. WotC just tries to be as 'conventional' as possible. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 21 Jan 2011 07:05:07 |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 04:07:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Hrm. Can't find my copy at the moment. THough I distinctly remember in The Crystal Shard, the copy with the journal entries, Drizzt specifically said that his sister propositioned him. The scene wasn't blatant. It wasn't Vierna ordering Drizzt "Pants down." But it was suggestive. She believed he simply grew nervous about preforming in public and thought he needed some privacy. Seeing as how she was the only priestess around...
This is all from memory, I haven't read the books in several months.
I was just reading it (again), and although it could be construed as slightly "suggestive" in her cajoling him to return to the room, she never actually said anything about him participating with HER. Just that his refusal could be punished by death by their laws. It's possible that he misconstrued her intentions toward him as personal rather than simply attempting to get him to go back into the ceremony. And she only laid her hand on his shoulder- they were just standing outside talking- she did not make any other move toward him.
I don't think morality is really the issue, to be honest, as others have mentioned most social taboos are really about survival and what is practical. Inmost societies, incest is just a bad idea because offspring might be weaker or less able to survive in the environment where they live. With the amount of dangers inherent in drow society, one would think that even play in that area would be frowned on for the simple reason that it is impractical for the survival and continued strength of the family.
If there is ANY moral stigma at all, it's more likely due to their original roots on the surface, from before the fall, or perhaps a lingering bit of concern by Lolth herself regarding mating within one's own family. She might encourage all manner of evil activity, (and perhaps even abuse for power) but I seriously doubt she ever condoned THAT kind of deviation. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 04:20:23
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Hrm. Can't find my copy at the moment. THough I distinctly remember in The Crystal Shard, the copy with the journal entries, Drizzt specifically said that his sister propositioned him. The scene wasn't blatant. It wasn't Vierna ordering Drizzt "Pants down." But it was suggestive. She believed he simply grew nervous about preforming in public and thought he needed some privacy. Seeing as how she was the only priestess around...
This is all from memory, I haven't read the books in several months.
I was just reading it (again), and although it could be construed as slightly "suggestive" in her cajoling him to return to the room, she never actually said anything about him participating with HER. Just that his refusal could be punished by death by their laws. It's possible that he misconstrued her intentions toward him as personal rather than simply attempting to get him to go back into the ceremony. And she only laid her hand on his shoulder- they were just standing outside talking- she did not make any other move toward him.
I don't think morality is really the issue, to be honest, as others have mentioned most social taboos are really about survival and what is practical. Inmost societies, incest is just a bad idea because offspring might be weaker or less able to survive in the environment where they live. With the amount of dangers inherent in drow society, one would think that even play in that area would be frowned on for the simple reason that it is impractical for the survival and continued strength of the family.
If there is ANY moral stigma at all, it's more likely due to their original roots on the surface, from before the fall, or perhaps a lingering bit of concern by Lolth herself regarding mating within one's own family. She might encourage all manner of evil activity, (and perhaps even abuse for power) but I seriously doubt she ever condoned THAT kind of deviation.
Having "offsprings that might be weaker or less able to survive in the environment where they live" is not a problem. The drow are evil and debauched. And as I mentioned before, should they want to mate with their brothers or cousins they are rather fond of, they could utilize whatever mundane or magical means to avoid pregnancy, or simply kill them; and 'mate for the purpose of reproduction' with non-relatives. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 04:32:46
|
| It's not just the possibility of pregnancy, though. Yes, that would be one good reason, but one also has to consider the social stigma of a female who could only get a male from her own family (or is simply perceived that way), or even vice versa. Such an individual would themselves be viewed as inferior and weak or incompetent, which NOT drow would ever willingly allow others to see or think. A female who shows affection for a sibling or other relative would be seen as weak and easily swayed, or perhaps even disloyal to the rest of the family, as they might have too strong a loyalty to the sibling or whatever. Or they might loose favor with Lolth for being perceived as having grown too attached, which is something she does not allow. No matter how evil or debauched they might be, nearly all drow would not want to risk that kind of scrutiny from both other drow AND their goddess!! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 04:37:54
|
| Ah, that's because you seem to attach 'mating' to affection. I'm not saying that should not be. It's just that evil races, such as the drow, or outside FR, the Dasati and the Valheru, USUALLY view and treat mating as something for sheer pleasure or gaining political power. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Drow incest
Topic Locked
