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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Nov 2010 : 18:02:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
<snip>
See, my opinion is that instead of killing off the character, just end the story with the hero "walking into the sunset". But, in today's market, I don't think we're ever going to see that happen*.
*Off-topic - The rumor mill was all ablaze that Lucas would film a sequel trilogy when/if the first six do well in their 3D re-release. The rumors were about it continuing Luke, Han & Leia's stories a lá the novels.  |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2010 : 18:41:31
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I loved the first three movies, despite the utter tropey-ness of them. Blame it on being 13 at the time.
Jar-Jar ruined the next three for me - I couldn't get past that. Him, and the metochlorines, oh... and the 'Jesus' thing they did with Anaken... YUCK.
I have to admit the effects blew me away - Lucas never never lets me down in that department. Sadly, most movies go that route these days (which is why I shudder at the thought of an FR movie).
And I agree with the 'character walking off into the sunset' thing Ashe, 100%. I think some authors 'end' their characters (and Rawlings did just that, but in a rather brilliant way) just so they don't get stuck in that never-ending cycle of sequels and prequels. It gets harder and harder to top what has gone before - what's Drizzt to do next, kill 10,000 Orcs? It starts too become a bit absurd after awhile.
Another great example - the SWord of Truth series. The author couldn't even let the poor b*stard get home (it happened only once, and even then there was a horrible event enroute). Richard would save the world, walk about 100 feet away, and suddenly be plunged into yet-another WSE. WTH? can't the guy get a least a couple of weeks of R&R between adventures? It gets a bit unrealistic. Even Drizzt has his 'down times'.
And to get this back on-topic (and my apologies to all): I have gotten 'teary-eyed' a number of times while reading FR novels - I couldn't possibly remember them all. There were at least three I know of where I out-right balled-like-a-baby (and one of those was when jaak died). The death hits harder when it has some sort of emotional impact on the other characters. Even the deaths of support-characters (like Delly) can be important, if it changes something about the main characters.
Heroic deaths are never sad - sad deaths are sad. But both can make you cry. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Nov 2010 19:13:34 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2010 : 19:05:02
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| To me, the saddest deaths of all are the ones that you never see coming- like Flint and the heart thing, or heroes who fall in the most unheroic ways, like an accident or just old age. That just makes their deaths more sad, because you EXPECT them to die in some battle or self-sacrifice. Seeing a favorite hero die of old age or tragic accident just seems so- I dunno, WRONG, somehow. A little bit pathetic. Makes them more human. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
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http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2010 : 19:14:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And Erik, maybe you write novels for the pure enjoyment of the story, but you can't honestly tell me that most designer-written novels aren't written with a meta-story agenda (in other words, in a shared-world, there are 'rules' what can and can't be done, and authors are also told what the novel must 'accomplish')
Why would I tell you that? That's obviously true--and it's kind of a non-sequitor in the discussion at hand.
Whether or not something has that sort of agenda might make a difference to whether an author can write the novel, but it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with whether it's emotionally affecting or not.
quote:
So you have two choices when the 'powers on-high' make demands of you and your novels - either make it work (and fans can tell when something feels 'forced'), or you refuse and lose the novel deal.
Sure--ye olde "art vs. pot-boiler" discussion.
Authors do have to write, otherwise they wouldn't be authors. I'm also pleased to have fostered the impression that I "write novels for the pure enjoyment of the story," but I'm a professional like anyone else. I've been fortunate in never having written anything I didn't 100% believe in. 
I don't think how much an author has to conform to rules or an established plan has anything to do with whether a book is emotionally moving or not.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 04 Nov 2010 19:21:17 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2010 : 19:22:49
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So here's a philosophical question for you:
Which is sadder? The hero that gets to live to old age, or the one that goes down swinging?
Think about it - they spend their entire lives trying to live long enough to see tomorrow. They all dream of that day when they can finally retire and get some much-needed rest. Unfortunately, for most, that rest only comes at the end of a sword.
The few 'lucky' ones that make it - that manage to keep themselves alive long-enough to retire - are usually bored-stiff 'till the end of their days, and spend much of their time reliving their 'glory days'.
So which is preferable? Is it better to burn out, then fade-away? To go out when your star is at its zenith, or to pass gently into the night?
As much as we profess to want a happy ending (stop snickering you pervs), the truth is none of us wants to see Drizzt, or Cale, or even Elminster drooling in a wheelchair and being fed porridge by a nurse.
EDIT: That was toward Allystra; Erik responded before I posted.
@Erik - not trying to be a jerk or anything - I am just pointing out that some deaths feel very relevant to the story, while others feel like they were just thrown-in because of some arbitrary decision made somewhere. To be honest, I'd prefer to believe THAT, then to think those piss-poor deaths were just bad writing.
I guess what I am trying to convey is that FR has a very loyal fanbase, and want each and every death to count for something. Sure, we know millions die on Toril all the time that we never hear about, but the ones we do hear about we grow to care about. I/we just want the authors to have the same affection for their creations as we do, and treat each one with respect. Even an apparently meaningless death could have repercussions down the road (as it did in Delly's case).
You know when I cried at Jakk's death? NOT when he died - I cried at when Cale 'let him go', and I completely lost it with Riven's reaction to it. Paul Kemp moved-up a thousand notches in my book with that ending. He took the death to a whole new level by exploring the feelings of others around it.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Nov 2010 20:14:01 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2010 : 19:58:42
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| Personally? I'd rather them go out swinging, spell-hurling, etc. It's usually a more "meaningful" death. Even if it's in vain. I would not mind a happy ending for some of those heroes- Drizzt, especially seems to deserve a bit of happiness (And not just a few short years after belatedly realizing he is in love with his closest freind- Duh, what was his first clue?) and the same goes for El, particularly after his incredibly long and exciting life. Not saying they should ALL go out that way, but let's be honest here- we'd rather see a Sturm than a Flint, to use a couple of examples noted earlier. Sure, it's great for them to walk of into the sunset and have a happy ending, but PLEASE don't tell us he died in bed at age such-and-such of apoplexy, or because he was walking down the street as an old man, run over by a runaway vegetable cart, or something similarly unbecoming of a hero! Let the guy have his "rest" but don't tell us how he dies, in that case. If you're going to "kill" a character, then for heaven's sake, let it actually MEAN something- or at least be ironic in some way, like Tass's was. (Taken out by a poisoned pin trap.... fitting for a *ahem* "handler".) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
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http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2010 : 19:59:45
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@MT: Oh I understand. Point made. There's no way to know (unless the author tells you directly), so if you prefer to believe it's by editorial fiat, go for it.
From an author's perspective, death scenes are often extremely difficult to write effectively. They're extremely sensitive to being written with a heavy-hand, or being trivialized by a misplaced metaphor/phrase, etc. Even when you purposefully put in an otherwise meaningless death, it's still not easy.
I for one am enjoying reading about those death scenes (or just sad scenes) that strongly affected readers.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2010 : 20:10:04
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Agreed, Erik. I had a very hard time killing a few characters in some of my stories. The hardest by far has been my comic book series (currently trying to get it published) in which I *gasp!* killed Spider-Man. (Say what you will about superheroes always coming back- in my series, it DOES NOT HAPPEN. His death was important to where the story has gone, because it revolves around his teen-age son and how his reaction to that event becomes a huge part of his persona.) It was the one scene I knew I had to get right, and I like to think that I made it work. Sad, moving, but not forced. And I made it (almost) impossible for anyone to rez him afterward. I've had characters that I loved writing about, but for stories to progress, they had to die. But writers learn to deal with that, I think, because we know that in the end, it's the story that makes people care what happens to the characters in the first place. Would he love Drizzt as much if he had just stayed in Menzo like his father did and taken his place like Malice wanted? I think not.
BTW, nice use of the Highlander ref, MT. Cute!!   |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
Edited by - Alystra Illianniis on 04 Nov 2010 20:20:11 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2010 : 20:34:27
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I wasn't even thinking Highlander - I have read and watched so much, its almost impossible for me to figure-out if anything at all is an original thought anymore (the 'burn out' in italics comes from the Def Leppard song, Rock of Ages).
In X-Men #190 - one of my all-time favorite Marvel story-lines - Spiderman does indeed die; quite uselessly, in fact. He was crucified! Friggin' epic story to the max. Seeing 'medieval' version of the Avengers was just icing-on-the-cake.
We now bring you back to our regularly scheduled scheduled thread...
How about non-death scenes? I can't recall one that made me cry, but I can think of many that made me sad. For instance, the scene in EiH wherein Vangerdehast purposely refuses to accept Elminster's mental sendings... and realizing his own inadequacies in the process. At heart, the man is a coward. In the same novel we see Mirt - a normal human - attempting what Vangerdehast would not.. COULD not... do - and he risked his life and sanity finding a solution to the problem.
You see, that's Poignant writing. We see into the hearts of these characters we have known so long. Mirt, the miserble b*stard, willing to sacrifice himself 'for the greater good', and Vangerdehast, 'savior of Cormyr', cowering behind his own failures and being shamed by it.
Sometimes the small things move you in ways the epic stuff never can. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Nov 2010 20:36:36 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2010 : 21:41:53
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As an aside . . .
@AI: You're trying to break into comics publishing with a story where you kill Spider-man? Good luck with that one!
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 00:00:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Elminster always makes me sad, because I feel deep inside he is very sad, and hides it with his lecherous sense of humor and cantankerous personalty. 'Tears of a clown' and all of that. I really hope they don't make him god of magic - the man just wants peace now, not more confrontation - let him R.I.P. Him becoming a god, I think, would be a worse fate then him being sent to hell (for him, that would BE Hell). He's tired, and its time for him to pass on...
That's what I don't like about Ed's portrayal of him. It's rather too Pug-ish. True, having a mortal 'heart' despite being immortal surely makes one sad that he has to watch his loved ones die before his very eyes as he continues to live. But having a mortal 'heart,' a good one, that is, one too can be optimistic and truly have fun with his immortality. He can simply consider his lifespan as several reincarnations, and quit being sad about it.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I guess what I am trying to convey is that FR has a very loyal fanbase, and want each and every death to count for something. Sure, we know millions die on Toril all the time that we never hear about, but the ones we do hear about we grow to care about. I/we just want the authors to have the same affection for their creations as we do, and treat each one with respect. Even an apparently meaningless death could have repercussions down the road...
HIGHLY AGREE. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 01:51:48
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Markustay, you 'get it' when it comes to Elminster . . . except, of course, that we know Wizards wants Ed to write more and more Elminster novels (rather than anything else). dennis, you of course are free to like or dislike any character or Ed's portayal of them (though I think anyone is on shaky ground if they say Ed's portrayal of one of his own characters, in his own world, is 'wrong'), but I think you're seeing the character as far more selfish than Ed has written him.
He IS optimistic; that's why he keeps on fighting to further Mystra's aims, even when she's gone. Yet he's sad because he isn't self-centered; because he can't overlook, ignore, or forget all the tragedies, failings, deaths, losses of entire countries and cultures. The "Oh, so what, I'M still here" character is too much of a b**trd for me to sympathize with, as a reader.
(And my reading of Elminster's character, in the preceding paragraph, isn't how I see El, all on my own; it's how Ed has described him, in several con seminars (GenCon and Great Canadian Baycon and some others). Ed has also said that El's insane, and that we've been seeing El change quite a bit, from novel to novel, and will see more changes in the books ahead. However, I personally doubt we'll see the character drop the cynical "smartass" mask he uses to deal with foes and those he wants to cow/awe.
(And Elminster came well before Pug.)
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Sandro
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
266 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 03:45:50
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Elminster always makes me sad, because I feel deep inside he is very sad, and hides it with his lecherous sense of humor and cantankerous personalty. 'Tears of a clown' and all of that. I really hope they don't make him god of magic - the man just wants peace now, not more confrontation - let him R.I.P. Him becoming a god, I think, would be a worse fate then him being sent to hell (for him, that would BE Hell). He's tired, and its time for him to pass on...
That's what I don't like about Ed's portrayal of him. It's rather too Pug-ish. True, having a mortal 'heart' despite being immortal surely makes one sad that he has to watch his loved ones die before his very eyes as he continues to live. But having a mortal 'heart,' a good one, that is, one too can be optimistic and truly have fun with his immortality. He can simply consider his lifespan as several reincarnations, and quit being sad about it.
I'm sure I don't have to point out that saying Ed portrays El incorrectly is pretty much the craziest thing that could be said on this forum, so I won't. However, I will point out that you seem to want Elminster to be much less mature than he is; while no one knows quite what it's like to live for well over a thousand years (such things being, unfortunately, impossible), it seems "unrealistic" that Elminster would not let the years affect him in any way, especially in the post-Spell Plague realms (as expressed in Elminster Must Die, which could have been just as accurately titled Realms Fans Must Read) when everything he's lived for -- hell, the main reason for his existence -- is gone.
As for having fun, well, what about his responsibilities? The world doesn't save itself, and while the Zhents might do their best to sabotage their own plans, many other groups aren't half so incompetent. El's seen it all and done it all many times by this point, and the only reason he doesn't lay down and die is because he is optimistic: there's some good left in the world [Mr. Frodo!] and it's worth fighting for.
Mortal "hearts", such as they are, aren't designed for the long stretch: compare humans and elves. Humans live with passion, and "burn out", dying (relatively young), naturally, and yet Elminster has had to live, what, twenty lives of a man? Hence, the insanity, and the exhaustion. He's got the world's toughest day job, and he's been working triple overtime every day for over a millennium. You try doing that and tell me you'd come out any differently. |
"Gods, little fishes, and spells to turn the one to the other," Mordenkainen sighed. "It's started already..." |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 04:08:03
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Elminster is not The Highlander.
El is Tom Hank's character Paul Edgecomb in The Green Mile.
Watch that amazingly good movie and tell me the ending doesn't make you jerk a tear or two.
When I think of Elminster, I think of that final five minutes of the movie. Imagine being fated to seeing everything you ever loved die... being chosen is not a 'gift', its a curse.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Sandro
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
266 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 04:27:27
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| This is also expressed well in Shadows of Doom, which was, as I recall, originally intended by Ed to be called Elminster's Doom. |
"Gods, little fishes, and spells to turn the one to the other," Mordenkainen sighed. "It's started already..." |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 04:30:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
dennis, you of course are free to like or dislike any character or Ed's portayal of them (though I think anyone is on shaky ground if they say Ed's portrayal of one of his own characters, in his own world, is 'wrong'), but I think you're seeing the character as far more selfish than Ed has written him.
He IS optimistic; that's why he keeps on fighting to further Mystra's aims, even when she's gone. Yet he's sad because he isn't self-centered; because he can't overlook, ignore, or forget all the tragedies, failings, deaths, losses of entire countries and cultures. The "Oh, so what, I'M still here" character is too much of a b**trd for me to sympathize with, as a reader.
(And my reading of Elminster's character, in the preceding paragraph, isn't how I see El, all on my own; it's how Ed has described him, in several con seminars (GenCon and Great Canadian Baycon and some others). Ed has also said that El's insane, and that we've been seeing El change quite a bit, from novel to novel, and will see more changes in the books ahead. However, I personally doubt we'll see the character drop the cynical "smartass" mask he uses to deal with foes and those he wants to cow/awe.
(And Elminster came well before Pug.)
BB
First, I did NOT say Ed's portrayal is wrong. That would be presumptuous of me. All I said is that I don't like it. (There's an obvious big difference.)
Elminster might be optimistic, but not enough for me. If he truly is optimistic, he'd enjoy his immortal existence and MOVE ON. Like him, we too experience losses. We see some of our loved ones die; we see some of the things we treasure get destroyed; we encounter changes that we'd rather not happen. But unlike him, WE MOVE ON, for move on we must. We get sad once in a while, upon remembering those we've lost, yet we never let those losses make our existence forever blemished by sadness. And that's how I'd like to see Elminter because I do not want one of my favorite characters to be a doddering, sad husk of a man. I don't want him to ignore all those deaths, failures, tragedies, and losses. Because moving on is not like that. It is accepting the reality that life is not and never will be always composed of some layers upon layers of happy moments; that tragedies happen; that fail we sometimes do; that on occasions we're helpless as things shatter before our very eyes; and that after accepting this we strive to amass the courage to never dwell on them forever, to be thankful that we still have a LIFE to live, more opportunities to share happy moments with people significant to us. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 04:44:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
As an aside . . .
@AI: You're trying to break into comics publishing with a story where you kill Spider-man? Good luck with that one!
Cheers
LOL!! Well, truth be told, the story is really about his kids- specifically his mutant teen-aged son, who is trying desperately to follow in his dad's footsteps. The death thing comes after a night when he's out showing his eager offspring the ropes of hero-ing, an outing that ends tragically for the senior spider. And since it's set in the MU's future, killing him off wasn't such a big deal, as he's much older by that time.
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 04:50:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
As an aside . . .
@AI: You're trying to break into comics publishing with a story where you kill Spider-man? Good luck with that one!
Cheers
LOL!! Well, truth be told, the story is really about his kids- specifically his mutant teen-aged son, who is trying desperately to follow in his dad's footsteps. The death thing comes after a night when he's out showing his eager offspring the ropes of hero-ing, an outing that ends tragically for the senior spider. And since it's set in the MU's future, killing him off wasn't such a big deal, as he's much older by that time.
I have to agree with Erik! |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 05:33:22
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Ah, gee thanks for the votes of confidence, guys! Sheesh- can't a girl get a little respect around here?! LOL!!! Seriously, though- the route I took for that was actually based on an issue of ASM done during Strazynski's run on the book, where Pete was being drug through a sort of temporal limbo and ended up seeing his own death, and his future self mentioned a son. I took the idea and ran with it- with a few tweaks of my own, of course, and the scene he saw ended up being not quite the "actual" future (thanks to some serious mystical tinkering by Dr. Strange, in my version).
*ahem* Sorry, back to topic now.... Someone mentioned moments that made us cry other than deaths- anyone have one? |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 05:56:38
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I actually mentioned one. I did not cry, but it moved me that it almost elicited some tears: Brennus's discovery that his own father did nothing about his mother's death. It was plain how hurt he was; how disappointed he was of his father, who he'd always believed loved his mother more than anyone and anything else.
One more: Tammith's gradual recognition of his fiance, Bareris, after she was turned into a vampire by Xingax. When Xingax made her an undead, all her memories were erased. But that little something in her called 'love' remained, and so he remembered Bareris. It's sad when she confessed that whatever feeling she used to have for him, 'tis not the same as the present, not because she intentionally forgot him, but because the old Tammith was long gone. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 05 Nov 2010 06:30:08 |
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Malcolm
Learned Scribe
242 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 15:25:27
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Well, dennis, I think we see Elminster "moving on" in all of the novels that have been written about him. In that he goes right on trying to "save the Realms from itself" with whatever means at his disposal, regardless of whether he is personally weak or strong at the time.
If you really mean to say he should "get over" the loss of Mystra and forge a new, happier life for himself, I should point out that the events of ELMINSTER MUST DIE! bring into question whether Mystra's loss is all that definite. In other words, if you've dedicated your life to serving Mystra, it might be premature to try to "get over" anything yet. Note the mentions in EL M D of Storm and El both praying to Mystra and calling on Mystra, for years upon years, not getting an answer but not stopping their attempts. One can take that as obstinancy or desperation or . . . hope. Optimism, in other words.
I also think Ed is writing characters on a more complex level than many fantasy novelists; Ed's characters are contradictory and many-sided, the older ones (e.g. the Chosen) especially so. In Ed's books, El is usually wry or sardonic or pranksome, which are all human nature ways of coping ("getting on") and are humorous to some degree. In other words, the Old Mage IS optimistic.
You seem to be equating optimism with abandoning a battle or cause that is lost, and changing lifestyle. A true optimist wouldn't accept a battle or cause as "lost," and so would keep at it. Someone who steps away from adversity and turns their life in another direction might be seen as the ultimate pessimist, and even gadfly ("Oh, well, THAT didn't work. Guess I'm not cut out to be a ballet dancer after all. Never mind; I'll become a . . . lumberjack! Yeah!" . . . and the month after that, an astronaut, or perhaps a king.) I just don't see Elminster as so simple a character. You seem (forgive me if I'm misinterpreting) to be thinking he should turn away from what's kept him going for over a thousand years because he's hit a very bad patch. I see Elminster far more as Ed's told us again and again he is: a meddler, a master manipulator with a thousand projects going on at once. Which raises the question: how would we the readers know if he'd turned away from anything, unless the writing is simplified down to "a man is his job and only his job, and everyone has only one interest at a time, and this one is this guy's"? I want to read about a Realms that's far more nuanced than that.
This is not about disagreeing with your preferences; you have a perfect right to like or not like Elminster-as-portrayed-by-Ed. This is about looking at your arguments and thinking you're reading about a different Elminster than I see, when I read the same books. There's a REASON for all that banter and detail and side-diversions that Ed puts in, you know. They're not just there to make the books longer, they're there to make the Realms deeper and richer and show us all the complexity from which future stories will arise (and look how many Realms novels by other writers deal with characters, places, and situations that Ed set up as interesting/intriguing for us all).
Few of us have the luxury in the real world of leading simple, linear, one-dimensional lives...and the Realms has dragons and blasting spells and evil undead and sharp swords, to make things far more...interesting.
Standing by for your inevitable rebuttal (in an entirely friendly frame of mind), 
Malcolm |
Edited by - Malcolm on 05 Nov 2010 15:26:48 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 16:31:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Malcolm
You seem to be equating optimism with abandoning a battle or cause that is lost, and changing lifestyle. A true optimist wouldn't accept a battle or cause as "lost," and so would keep at it. Someone who steps away from adversity and turns their life in another direction might be seen as the ultimate pessimist, and even gadfly ("Oh, well, THAT didn't work. Guess I'm not cut out to be a ballet dancer after all. Never mind; I'll become a . . . lumberjack! Yeah!" . . . and the month after that, an astronaut, or perhaps a king.)
You seem (forgive me if I'm misinterpreting) to be thinking he should turn away from what's kept him going for over a thousand years because he's hit a very bad patch.
Oh, no need to say 'Forgive me.' Heh, it's too big a sentence for me; when I hear it, I feel like a priest being confessed to. (Father, forgive me for I have sinned...) A simple sorry would do. Indeed, you misinterpreted my post. I DIDN'T mean nor said that El should “step away from adversity and turn his life in another direction,” nor renounce his being a Chosen (I always suspected Mystra is still ALIVE; hence his being a Chosen never ceased, is just in 'suspended status'). What I said is that I don't want him to ignore nor forget all those deaths, failures, tragedies, and losses. Because moving on is not like that. He should LEARN the reality that life is not and never will be always composed of some layers upon layers of happy moments; that tragedies happen; that fail he sometimes does; that on occasions he's helpless as things shatter before his very eyes; and that AFTER accepting this he should STRIVE to amass the COURAGE to NEVER DWELL on them forever, to be thankful that he still has a LIFE to live, more opportunities to share happy moments with people significant to him. And let me quote MT again, “Elminster always makes me sad, because I feel deep inside he is very sad, and hides it with his lecherous sense of humor and cantankerous personalty. 'Tears of a clown' and all of that.” That is what I want to see change. He can try to be happy without forgetting everyone and everything he lost, and try he must. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 16:46:29
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The minute we stop 'caring', we become as bad as the folk we oppose. When you begin to think even a single life is expendable, you have become that which you hate the most.
Elminster was first amongst the Chosen because he cares.
And Elminster does make the best of it, but when something reminds him of an event or person from the past, he can't help but feel a bit melancholy. And when you have lived as long as he, more and more things begin to remind you of something else - it becomes very hard after a thousand years to stave-off all the constant reminders.
The man is tired; any normal person would be. He hasn't given up - not by a long shot - he just doesn't have the inner strength to carry-on much longer. The weight of the world is a terrible thing to bear. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 16:46:32
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dennis, I think he can be both. After reading the El books, I get the feeling that although he is still very much an optimist, and that he does indeed accept the losses- how could he NOT, and still continue?- he is still, at the end of the day, a tired old man who has seen and done too much. I think that is what MT was getting at. El is the same loveable, cantankerous yet jovial fellow he's always been at heart, but he's getting too old and tired to keep it up. Add to that all the losses, and I think he may just be ready to finally take a nice long (and well-deserved) rest. To just live out the rest of his life in peace and quiet, as it were.
Yes, he still feels the need to meddle in the affairs of elves, men, and dragons, but he also has realized that there is a need to pass on the torch. It's time for the old guard to step aside and let a new generation of Realms-Rescuers take over. THAT is what MT seems to be saying, if I read him right. And Ed seems to be guiding El that way, which is a good thing. He's a powerful old fart, but he knows his limits, and accepts them. Moving on, as you put it, at this point pretty much means passing his responsibilities to someone younger and more energetic, someone capable of handling the responsibilities of saving the Realms whether they like it or not. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
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http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 17:12:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Moving on, as you put it, at this point pretty much means passing his responsibilities to someone younger and more energetic, someone capable of handling the responsibilities of saving the Realms whether they like it or not.
That's not exactly the kind of 'moving on' I referred to. BUT, I'd rather him do just that ---pass on the torch to someone else--- than continue to see him sad. I feel sad whenever I see or think him sad because he's one of the characters I grew to like. Had I not cared, I wouldn't have given a damn what Ed does with him. So if El can't or won't be depicted as a 'happy and content man despite the burden of the world on his shoulders,' I'd rather see him take a much deserved rest and let someone else continue his legacy. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 17:28:53
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| Well, even a generally happy and content person can still feel sad at times. I don't see him as being that way all the time, but after so long, it would be very out-of-character for him NOT to get depressed from time to time. Having sad moments just means that he is still human. And as many people as he has lost over the centuries, why WOULD he be happy all the time? That just screams "shallow and self-absorbed" to me. And El is NOT either of those things. There's a difference between being sad or depressed occasionally, and being emo. el does not strike me as the emo type, but neither is he the kind to go enjoyhimself at a party after a friend has died! Nor SHOULD he be like that. And no where has anyone said that he is perma-depressed. Just that he's old, tired, and maybe nostalgic for the things and people he has lost. Older folks tend to get that way, or so I'm told.... That's just LIFE. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 17:46:10
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| I don't want him to feel happy 'at all times,' either. That's rather absurd, even in RL. Occasional moments of sadness, either through introspection or because something inadvertently reminds him of a dead loved one, is fine with me. But the sadness that emanates from him seems to permeate every page where he appears; that even when he jokes there's a tinge of unhappiness in it. And that's just plain sad. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 18:21:12
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| Well, as MT said, he may indeed be a bit of unhappiness in the old guy by now. Why shouldn't he? you don't shrug off that mush pain and loss and still be the same person. He has grown and changed- as he should. el has seen a LOT more than most people could ever imagine in his long life. That is bound to affect his outlook. In fact, I'd really be surprised (and disappointed) if it didn't. It's sad because it's realistic. It shows that he's not just a two-dimentional character who goes from one adventure to the next without ever worrying or reminiscing about the past. Real people do that. They mourn, they get depressed, and they often try to cover it up. humor is one of the most common ways to do this. His seems to be his shield. I can think of a few other heroes like that, too. It's not sad, really, it's just human nature. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 19:46:39
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No Realms novel has ever made me cry. But a Realms novel (one of the Moonshae books I think) was the first novel I’d read where a main character in a novel I was reading died. And not just a heroic death, but a death of the, “the bad guy’s monster [a displacer beast] found you by yourself, stalked you, pounced on you and ate you before anyone could save you” variety.
I was…on I dunno, ten or eleven at the time and reading lots of X-Men and Batman so, oh what was the character’s name…Silk?...he was like a superhero to me: unkillable and supposed to always be back in the next book.
Then he dies this terrible death and I just couldn’t believe it. Note I’m not complaining about the writing when I say Silk’s death was terrible. I’m just relating how the experience felt to my young mind at the time. It was a good lesson.
At about that point in my comics reading I started to pay a lot more attention to the small print in the back of the comic books where the editors answered sometimes angry fan letters about what the writers were doing to the characters.
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Sandro
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
266 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 20:37:46
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Moving on, as you put it, at this point pretty much means passing his responsibilities to someone younger and more energetic, someone capable of handling the responsibilities of saving the Realms whether they like it or not.
That's not exactly the kind of 'moving on' I referred to. BUT, I'd rather him do just that ---pass on the torch to someone else--- than continue to see him sad. I feel sad whenever I see or think him sad because he's one of the characters I grew to like. Had I not cared, I wouldn't have given a damn what Ed does with him. So if El can't or won't be depicted as a 'happy and content man despite the burden of the world on his shoulders,' I'd rather see him take a much deserved rest and let someone else continue his legacy.
No one else can continue his legacy, because nobody else is Elminster. That's his doom. It always has been. It's the entire point of the character. |
"Gods, little fishes, and spells to turn the one to the other," Mordenkainen sighed. "It's started already..." |
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The Fantasy Novel That Made You Cry *Spoilers*
