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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jul 2010 : 14:57:43
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| In the early 1980’s the basic set came out. I wonder if same type of arguments cropped up with the older fans? |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2010 : 17:08:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
In the early 1980’s the basic set came out. I wonder if same type of arguments cropped up with the older fans?
We will never know, we didn't have the interwebs yet. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2010 : 17:16:59
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| I'm pretty sure some of it did happen, but it didn't have the highly explosive fuel that is the internet to flame their complaints. Also, AD&D rules were very complicated to try and get pre-teen interested in the game. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2010 : 18:40:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I'm pretty sure some of it did happen, but it didn't have the highly explosive fuel that is the internet to flame their complaints. Also, AD&D rules were very complicated to try and get pre-teen interested in the game.
I *was* said pre-teen during the 1E era, and I couldn't grasp the rules then; When Basic came out, I actually ran my first game during recess in 6th grade! When I reached middle school, I met a bunch of kids playing 2E and 'graduated' to that.
So here's the question: Instead of marketing the new rules as '4E', could Wizards have successfully marketed it as 'Basic' DnD again? Targeting a younger demographic, with simplified settings and rules? |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2010 : 19:08:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
I *was* said pre-teen during the 1E era, and I couldn't grasp the rules then; When Basic came out, I actually ran my first game during recess in 6th grade! When I reached middle school, I met a bunch of kids playing 2E and 'graduated' to that.
So here's the question: Instead of marketing the new rules as '4E', could Wizards have successfully marketed it as 'Basic' DnD again? Targeting a younger demographic, with simplified settings and rules?
I'm of the opinion that this would have worked better. If they had done this AND further refined 3e (a la "Pathfinder") and done a better job (IMO) of transitioning the Realms they would not have lost me as a customer. Though, they have lured me back as a customer with promises of novels by Elaine and Paul. But that is just as a novel reader (where I began with Realms), not as rules set enthusiast. If I like what I see in Elaine's and Paul's novels, I will probably go back and try to read some of the other 4e novels by my other favorite Realms novels. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
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* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2010 : 19:56:53
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On a side note...
I was looking at the ad for the Abyssalplague novels coming up and saw that they have a blurb/ad for the characters of Bill Slaviscek's The Mark of Nerath at the bottom of the page.
A cleric forced into adventure when he inherits a magic sword and his undead ancestor tries to kill him.
An undead villain that made a deal with the devil to raise a fallen empire.
A female warrior that has sworn vengeance on a green dragon.
Eric Draven/The Crow.
A stereotypical halfling (more like kender) thief.
*sigh* |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2010 : 19:00:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
On a side note...
I was looking at the ad for the Abyssalplague novels coming up and saw that they have a blurb/ad for the characters of Bill Slaviscek's The Mark of Nerath at the bottom of the page.
A cleric forced into adventure when he inherits a magic sword and his undead ancestor tries to kill him.
An undead villain that made a deal with the devil to raise a fallen empire.
A female warrior that has sworn vengeance on a green dragon.
Eric Draven/The Crow.
A stereotypical halfling (more like kender) thief.
*sigh*
I never thought about clicking on the pictures...and the Crow homage upsets me a bit. As long as he doesn't have an invisible talkative bird sitting on his shoulder, then I could learn to live with the hero.
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I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2010 : 19:17:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
On a side note...
I was looking at the ad for the Abyssalplague novels coming up and saw that they have a blurb/ad for the characters of Bill Slaviscek's The Mark of Nerath at the bottom of the page.
A cleric forced into adventure when he inherits a magic sword and his undead ancestor tries to kill him.
An undead villain that made a deal with the devil to raise a fallen empire.
A female warrior that has sworn vengeance on a green dragon.
Eric Draven/The Crow.
A stereotypical halfling (more like kender) thief.
*sigh*
I never thought about clicking on the pictures...and the Crow homage upsets me a bit. As long as he doesn't have an invisible talkative bird sitting on his shoulder, then I could learn to live with the hero.
He's a servant of the RAVEN queen. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2010 : 19:20:36
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I really hope the are not putting the Abysmal Plague red banner on the front of Whisper of Venom.
I saw the cover of The Ghost King papeback somewhere and that pic had it running up ithe left hand side. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2010 : 19:27:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
On a side note...
I was looking at the ad for the Abyssalplague novels coming up and saw that they have a blurb/ad for the characters of Bill Slaviscek's The Mark of Nerath at the bottom of the page.
A cleric forced into adventure when he inherits a magic sword and his undead ancestor tries to kill him.
An undead villain that made a deal with the devil to raise a fallen empire.
A female warrior that has sworn vengeance on a green dragon.
Eric Draven/The Crow.
A stereotypical halfling (more like kender) thief.
*sigh*
I never thought about clicking on the pictures...and the Crow homage upsets me a bit. As long as he doesn't have an invisible talkative bird sitting on his shoulder, then I could learn to live with the hero.
He's a servant of the RAVEN queen.
There is one image stuck in my head. A miniature deity sitting on his shoulder dressed in all goth gear. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2010 : 14:32:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Holy Crap! I totally forgot about the D&D Adventure Game Box Set. Thanks Brimmy!
As for the 4E/4E Edition War, it's more that a group of posters are insisting the Essentials line is 4.5, while others are insisting it isn't.
Well, as far as I can tell, it certainly looks like a revised edition (clarified/altered and new mechanics, errata included, revised classes, etc.) so I'd definitely call it 4.5 myself.
If it had been published as a "simplified" version of 4E ("4E lite"), it would be more like BD&D (although it's clear that they're trying to capture this image among older gamers). However, WoTC is clearly bound by their promise ("There won't be 4.5") so they cannot call it 4.5. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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froglegg
Learned Scribe
317 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 02:07:35
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However, WoTC is clearly bound by their promise ("There won't be 4.5") so they cannot call it 4.5.
[/quote]
When it comes to money a promise means nothing.
John |
Long live Alias and Dragonbait! Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb the Realms need you more then ever!
On my word as a sage nothing within these pages is false, but not all of it may prove to be true. - Elminster of Shadowdale
The Old Grey Box gets better with age! |
Edited by - froglegg on 17 Jul 2010 02:09:15 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 05:41:57
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| They also denied the existence of a 4th edition, not too long before announcing it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Jul 2010 05:52:15 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 06:50:17
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Ummm, the blurb from the top of that ad -
Brand-new novels set in the core Dungeons & Dragons world—the same world depicted in the Player’s Handbook and Dungeon Master’s Guide!
Uhhhhhhhh... what world is that? 
There is NO 'default world' in the basic books - just some rather vague descriptions of a not-world, which they have never named and never plan to, so that a DM can port any of its 'lore' (cough... cough) into their own worlds.
So, if those novels are taking place in this mythical 'not-world', are they 'not novels'
And a common banner running on the covers of books? What are we, back to comic-crossovers? HELLO! There's a reason why the comic industry tanked after over-doing those... that fad came and went-out already.
Any other bad old ideas they want to pretend were theirs? It seems everything I see them trying has been done before, and failed before - what is going on over there?
Then again, it does have the Crow/Spawn character. Who says you can't beat a dead horse a few hundred more times? Or is he the cousin of the guy from Ghostwalker? Everis Cale? Artemis Entreri? Stop me when I come to someone who isn't filled with shadowy yumminess these days.
Magroth the Mad - alliteration at its finest.
Yes, I'm dead. get over it." - sounds like a good slogan to post over the D&D headquarters.
And they didn't even try to market 4e, as far as I can tell. I saw ads all over the place when 3e came out, even a piece on the 6 O'clock news. I really hope they intend to market this new product, at least, weather its 'Essentials', or '4.5', or whatever. This stuff won't sell itself.
5e is is going to be 'Heroscape: Advanced rules' (and there are two sets of rules that come with that game), mark my words.
Here's the deal - if they come out with a new version of the Old Grey Box, with an updated (Todd Lockwood) version of the cover (same pic, but a new version of it), and include inside a set of 'quick play' rules, I would buy it and give 4e a try. I don't want old cover art; I want the old damn realms! |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Jul 2010 07:19:24 |
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froglegg
Learned Scribe
317 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 14:41:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
They also denied the existence of a 4th edition, not too long before announcing it.
Thats why I didn't get Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave, Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land and Anauroch: The Empire of Shade. Because I felt betrayed. 
John |
Long live Alias and Dragonbait! Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb the Realms need you more then ever!
On my word as a sage nothing within these pages is false, but not all of it may prove to be true. - Elminster of Shadowdale
The Old Grey Box gets better with age! |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 14:44:01
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quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
On a related note: perusing the product catalog, I couldn't help but notice all of these "omnibus" editions of pre-Spellplague Realms novel lines coming out this year.
Not that I'm not happy for the authors, but doesn't this kind of fly in the face of the whole, "we're not going to look back at the old Realms" thing?
I for one will hope sales of these "older" novel omnibuses is strong enough that someone at says "Hey there is still a big market for stories from the past......hmmm , how about a Forgotten Realms Heritage novel line? we could launch it with EC's Reclamation!!" |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 15:31:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
They also denied the existence of a 4th edition, not too long before announcing it.
Well, seeing as the had a set date for when they were going to introduce and start marketing 4th edition, it would have been kinda stupid of them to not keep quiet about it until that date, don't you think? |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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froglegg
Learned Scribe
317 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 15:41:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
They also denied the existence of a 4th edition, not too long before announcing it.
Well, seeing as the had a set date for when they were going to introduce and start marketing 4th edition, it would have been kinda stupid of them to not keep quiet about it until that date, don't you think?
Yes sir! Got to keep the suckers......err customers buying 3.5 books so we can make them useless in just a few ticks...........
John |
Long live Alias and Dragonbait! Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb the Realms need you more then ever!
On my word as a sage nothing within these pages is false, but not all of it may prove to be true. - Elminster of Shadowdale
The Old Grey Box gets better with age! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 16:16:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
They also denied the existence of a 4th edition, not too long before announcing it.
Well, seeing as the had a set date for when they were going to introduce and start marketing 4th edition, it would have been kinda stupid of them to not keep quiet about it until that date, don't you think?
There's a difference between keeping quiet and flat out denying something. Keeping quiet I can expect, and it doesn't bother me. A denial, though, is an entirely different story. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 16:18:10
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| At least its a great cover. I remember seeing that picture in an add over twenty years ago; my first meeting with D&D. |
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froglegg
Learned Scribe
317 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 16:59:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
At least its a great cover. I remember seeing that picture in an add over twenty years ago; my first meeting with D&D.
+1 for Jorkens. 
John |
Long live Alias and Dragonbait! Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb the Realms need you more then ever!
On my word as a sage nothing within these pages is false, but not all of it may prove to be true. - Elminster of Shadowdale
The Old Grey Box gets better with age! |
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froglegg
Learned Scribe
317 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2010 : 00:07:21
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I guess we will all find out if this ploy worked in just a little while. 
John |
Long live Alias and Dragonbait! Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb the Realms need you more then ever!
On my word as a sage nothing within these pages is false, but not all of it may prove to be true. - Elminster of Shadowdale
The Old Grey Box gets better with age! |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 17:45:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
On a side note...
I was looking at the ad for the Abyssalplague novels coming up and saw that they have a blurb/ad for the characters of Bill Slaviscek's The Mark of Nerath at the bottom of the page.
A cleric forced into adventure when he inherits a magic sword and his undead ancestor tries to kill him.
An undead villain that made a deal with the devil to raise a fallen empire.
A female warrior that has sworn vengeance on a green dragon.
Eric Draven/The Crow.
A stereotypical halfling (more like kender) thief.
*sigh*
I read an excerpt chapter from something called 'The Gates of Madness', which I also think is by Bill Slaviscek in the back of The Ghost King.
That was the most generic gaming fiction, bar none, that I've ever read. Completely, utterly flat and uninteresting. Characters were still-born, dialogue was stilted, atmosphere was non-existent, plotting seemed pre-ordained in the worst way, etc.
It was like reading the after-game logs from one of those D&D games where the players are teenage munckhins playing 'darker and edgier' copies of whatever pulp character is popular that week and the GM is spending most of his time preparing carefully balanced, level-appropriate encounters that drop the right l00tz and none at all on setting versimulatude or NPC characterisation. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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froglegg
Learned Scribe
317 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 18:10:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
On a side note...
I was looking at the ad for the Abyssalplague novels coming up and saw that they have a blurb/ad for the characters of Bill Slaviscek's The Mark of Nerath at the bottom of the page.
A cleric forced into adventure when he inherits a magic sword and his undead ancestor tries to kill him.
An undead villain that made a deal with the devil to raise a fallen empire.
A female warrior that has sworn vengeance on a green dragon.
Eric Draven/The Crow.
A stereotypical halfling (more like kender) thief.
*sigh*
I read an excerpt chapter from something called 'The Gates of Madness', which I also think is by Bill Slaviscek in the back of The Ghost King.
That was the most generic gaming fiction, bar none, that I've ever read. Completely, utterly flat and uninteresting. Characters were still-born, dialogue was stilted, atmosphere was non-existent, plotting seemed pre-ordained in the worst way, etc.
It was like reading the after-game logs from one of those D&D games where the players are teenage munckhins playing 'darker and edgier' copies of whatever pulp character is popular that week and the GM is spending most of his time preparing carefully balanced, level-appropriate encounters that drop the right l00tz and none at all on setting versimulatude or NPC characterisation.
Ouch! 
John |
Long live Alias and Dragonbait! Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb the Realms need you more then ever!
On my word as a sage nothing within these pages is false, but not all of it may prove to be true. - Elminster of Shadowdale
The Old Grey Box gets better with age! |
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froglegg
Learned Scribe
317 Posts |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2010 : 19:24:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
At least its a great cover. I remember seeing that picture in an add over twenty years ago; my first meeting with D&D.
I saw the new D&D essentials advertisement. Nice try. I think MAYBE WOTC is realizing the old customers they lost were actually valuable. I know WOTC knew they would lose customers, but I wonder now if they underestimated what that number would be.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2010 : 19:27:56
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quote:
Originally posted by froglegg
The Red box = D&D 4.5?????
They can package it in books with the original Efreet, and the thief prying the stone form the horned idol, it is still NOT the rules system I want to play. Shiny apple... oooo nice. Bite into it... still a worm.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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froglegg
Learned Scribe
317 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2010 : 21:47:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
quote:
Originally posted by froglegg
The Red box = D&D 4.5?????
They can package it in books with the original Efreet, and the thief prying the stone form the horned idol, it is still NOT the rules system I want to play. Shiny apple... oooo nice. Bite into it... still a worm.
It's not my thing for sure. I wonder what the 4th edition fans are thinking now?
John |
Long live Alias and Dragonbait! Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb the Realms need you more then ever!
On my word as a sage nothing within these pages is false, but not all of it may prove to be true. - Elminster of Shadowdale
The Old Grey Box gets better with age! |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2010 : 12:00:45
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Probably what fans of all the editions have been thinking when there is a product like this being announced; "What happens now?" I cant exactly see panic spreading.
I am a bit curious about where people get the ideas about 4ed. not selling and all that; from what I have read it seems to be nothing but loose speculations with claims and counter claims by fans of the various editions. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2010 : 12:52:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Probably what fans of all the editions have been thinking when there is a product like this being announced; "What happens now?" I cant exactly see panic spreading.
I am a bit curious about where people get the ideas about 4ed. not selling and all that; from what I have read it seems to be nothing but loose speculations with claims and counter claims by fans of the various editions.
The cutbacks in personnel at WotC certainly suggest that sales aren't as strong as desired... That's the only hard evidence I know of, though I'd also consider Pathfinder's success to be a commentary on 4E's appeal (and thus, sales). |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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What were they thinking?
