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Stranjer
Acolyte
18 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Apr 2009 : 08:01:41
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Recently, I came to the conclusion that, although I love all of the RAS novels I've read, there seems to be a lot of disappointment in my heart when I think about various things that have to do with Drizzt. I mean, Homeland was the first realms book I read (yeah, and it was pretty old then, I'm comparetively a newbie to a lot of people on this forum) and it pretty much introduced me to the realms(insofar as Homeland can, lol), but still. I mean, most of my disappointment has more to do with the Drizzt publications and things not made by RAS, but endorsed either by him or by wizards as offical, from the nigh-identical "official" twinkle and icingdeath(which is nonsensical in and of itself) to the "Reader's Guide to Drizzt" which at times, I wish they just didn't put pictures in, rather then stupidly re-use pictures from various sourcebooks, some of which make no sense(anyone have a list of how many pictures were re-used? I think Triel's is by far the worst, but I dont routinely browse all the sourcebooks, so I cannot name them all, and I mean re-used as in, not the actual character in the first publication, like the picture of Jaka being from the "Master Manipulator" feat in PHB2, or Maya being the generic Drow in MM). Then I find a hardcover copy of the graphic novel version of "Streams of Silver" and decidedly disagree with at least half the character drawings.
Then there is the cover artwork. You know, I really like Lockwood's depictions of almost all the characters but it seems like he doesnt do a good job with little details as far as RAS's work is concerned. Don't know whether to attribute that to RAS not giving him enough details, or Lockwood not trying to work as many in. When I talk details I mean, why does the axe bruenor has not have notches in it later on, even though he switches back to it. And thats frequently mentioned(his many-notched axe is as much his trademark as his fiery beard). Or why do Drizzt's scimitar look identical (would actually prefer them to be more curved too, but meh), why does Jarlaxle have a sword sheath on. Why is Entreri's dagger not terribly bejewled, and why isnt Charon's Claw done to match at least some of the descriptions.
Also, Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance II(never did play the first one, or the Demon Stone game, though I did mean to) has Drizzt unable to use stealth, which was an in-game feature(not going to berate them that for the secret character they should have made new abilities like guen, sphere of darkness, or faerie fire, but, c'mon, stealth?) He was also unable to unequip either sword, even when he was in town, and had the ability to cast Otiluke's Icy Sphere... ok... what?
I mean, it just seems like everything RAS doesnt explicitly write himself is automatically bad, though I did enjoy the Monte Cook's shortstory in Realms of the Underdark. Heck, some of the books have flaws, some I can forgive (i.e. Dove's apparently resignation to die at hands of Stone Giants when she is a chosen) because, if I think about it, I realize he probably just didn't know that much of the realms, or the various characters he was trying to depict. Thats understandable especially when you consider that, prior to Hunter's Blade trilogy he didnt realyl do anything to try and mess too much with the realm. He more or less stayed out of the way of what was already made, and so he didnt really have many chances to misrepresent things. But some errors I have never really seen resolution too, like fact that, from the knowledge of everyone except Yvonne Baenre, and Jarlaxle himself I believe, Berg'inyon was the third born son of Yvonne Baenre, Gromph and Dantrag being his older brothers. I tried asking once on a RAS forum, and all I got as a response was "Well it's friggin House BAENRE, they can do whatever they want" and dismissed as me having too much time on my hands.
I guess I just want to find out how many people out there are like me, fans(to an extent) of RAS and his creations, but jaded by the bad that has come with the good.
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Edited by - Stranjer on 28 Apr 2009 08:05:21
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2009 : 09:22:18
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Point is that some authors of days gone by wrote their novels without really getting into touch with the designers of the world that closely. Thus, at times, designers had to iron out canon lore written into the novels (since everything that is published by STR/WotC with an FR logo becomes canon) later on. This trend has been more or less put to rest during the last decade though, especially with the new authors. They, though, were and have been given quite arduous tasks by the designers (Empyrean Odyssey, Lady Penitent) in turn.
As for Drizzt, methinks it is common knowledge that RAS does not always write along the guidelines of the rules and creates his own bit of lore now and then. Which is fair enough, author's freedom and all. The bad thing with regards to the Realms has been said above though: all that he writes becomes canon within the Realmspace setting.
Obviously, the odd mistake is bound to happen over the course of a couple of decades of novel-writing about a character, like those House Baenre stuff. Yet, somesuch is less annoying than e.g. the intended bouts with a balor or a marilith, who, author's protection aside, would have wiped the floor with Drizzt any other day. The deus-ex-machina stuff used to slaughter the Baenre priestess is also something I rather not start writing about ... |
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Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 28 Apr 2009 09:24:26 |
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Stranjer
Acolyte
18 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2009 : 13:15:39
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Oh yeah, I really have no problem with that aspect, like I said, I wouldn't begrudge him occaisonally... I suppose I could say "incorrectly" (though that seems harsher then I intend) representing a major person in the realms that he didn't know about fully. That happens. I was a bit peeved that he forgot what I believe was his own lore though (I believe Ed somewhere stated RAS more or less started the creation of the drow in FR, or at least created Menzoberranzan, so I *think* it was he who came up with the "kill third son" bit, could be wrong though). And my complaint isn't really about RAS, it just seems like, none of the extra Drizzt products out there seem to care overmuch about the novels, or, you know, the facts they are trying to portray. I suppose some is artist rendition of things, which is forgivable, but it also seems like RAS always gives praise to these things, and never seems to offer criticisms to artists, or correct them on how he thinks they should look, or point out discrepancies. I mean, he mentions that Athans was the one person he thought of to put together the Reader's Guide, and aside from re-used pictures, there is some just outright incorrect stuff in it. Like the page on Jarlaxle, says his two favorite magic items are his eyepatch "which protects him from mind altering spells." when it does a hell of a lot more, and hit hat, which "allows him to assume the shape of any humanoid figure he desires." Hmm, interesting, i believe they meant Agatha's mask... but Jarlaxle, to my knowledge, never used it(although i believe he is in possession of it).
Though it has come to my attention that maybe im just a prick when it comes to details others might find inane. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2009 : 18:32:34
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I tend to disregard minor details that contradict cannon lore, but that's jsut me.  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2009 : 18:48:38
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| As much as I dislike how much WotC has exploited Drizzt, they would be stupid not to. It would be like if Nintendo didn't make the plethora of Mario merchandise that they have. |
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Stranjer
Acolyte
18 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2009 : 02:27:49
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| I dont mind that the exploited him, like you said it would be foolish not to, I just wish that when they did do it, they put more effort into it. |
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Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2009 : 04:14:17
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| IMO, Wotc gives you just enough to "wet your appetite" without giving you the full meal when it comes to Drizzt's off -novel products art and such. If they gave it all to you then there wouldn't be any dessert |
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Rabiesbunny
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2009 : 06:14:52
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Personally, any lore mistakes made with Drizzt have never really bothered me (mainly because I haven't read any since the first 6).
The real problem I have with those books is simply that they influenced so many players, be it in Neverwinter Nights or in tabletop, to create drow. CG drow. With special-colored eyes. So much so that they changed drow from only have red eyes (in FRCS 3rd ed) to having any color eyes they want (I think it was mentioned in Underdark 3.5...or was it Player's Guide to Faerun?) to cater to people who wish to be more like Drizzt.
It is not so much a fault of any author, or WotC, but of members of the fanbase. It reminds me a LOT of the huge amount of Sonic fan-fic self inserts, but with drow instead of fuzzy blue hedgehogs.
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"Then I was right. Jobe has all his children killed, and Michael Bay gets to keep making his movies. There is no god." |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2009 : 08:42:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Stranjer
Recently, I came to the conclusion that, although I love all of the RAS novels I've read, there seems to be a lot of disappointment in my heart when I think about various things that have to do with Drizzt. [...] I mean, most of my disappointment has more to do with the Drizzt publications and things not made by RAS, but endorsed either by him or by wizards as offical
Not to be snippy, but you just kinda contradicted yourself, here. Your disappointment doesn't seem to be with "Drizzt", but with other people and things. This scroll seems mislabeled, in that case.
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from the nigh-identical "official" twinkle and icingdeath(which is nonsensical in and of itself) to the "Reader's Guide to Drizzt" which at times, I wish they just didn't put pictures in, rather then stupidly re-use pictures from various sourcebooks, some of which make no sense [...] Then I find a hardcover copy of the graphic novel version of "Streams of Silver" and decidedly disagree with at least half the character drawings.
Then there is the cover artwork. You know, I really like Lockwood's depictions of almost all the characters but it seems like he doesnt do a good job with little details as far as RAS's work is concerned.
I feel your pain. These are all very familiar gripes for Drizzt fans. It seems that we care more about the details than many of the people who are getting paid to use him and his stories in the related media.
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Don't know whether to attribute that to RAS not giving him enough details, or Lockwood not trying to work as many in.
It always seemed to me that whoever they were going to get to do new art for the books should be required to read all the books and incorporate all the details up to that point. While it was understandable that the original cover artists couldn't get all the details right for the first edition books, because they were being asked to do the covers while the books were still in development, there doesn't seem to be much excuse for later artists to miss major details. There just doesn't seem to be a big push by the overlords to get those details right, and without that, the artists don't do it themselves. They're too busy with too many different projects for too many different authors to get the details right on their own.
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When I talk details I mean, why does the axe bruenor has not have notches in it later on, even though he switches back to it. And thats frequently mentioned(his many-notched axe is as much his trademark as his fiery beard).
Maybe it does, but we're just not being given high enough of a resolution in the paintings in order to see those notches. Mithral is a pretty hard metal. The notches could just be really, really faint.
Bruenor might even sharpen them out of the edge from time to time. "Many-notched axe" doesn't necessarily mean that the axe presently bears multiple notches. It might just mean that the axe has been notched multiple times throughout its history, but it doesn't necessarily continue to show those notches at this time.
I kinda like the idea that the king's axe would be above being allowed to go notched for long. I'd like to think of it as being fixed and prepped for the next battle, as a matter of course.
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Or why do Drizzt's scimitar look identical (would actually prefer them to be more curved too, but meh)
My guess would be that TL assumed that Drizzt's wondrous fighting technique--what with the blades spinning in perfect balance together and what-not--would be faciliated by essentially identical or very similar weapons.
Obviously, not enough counsel has been given TL on the true nature and descriptions of the two blades.
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why does Jarlaxle have a sword sheath on.
He was described in this fashion in some of the earlier books (The Legacy, Siege of Darkness), and apparently it stuck in TL's mind.
It is unclear whether RAS originally intended for the belted sword to also be one of Jarlaxle's magically-elongated daggers, or if it was truly supposed to be an additional weapon beyond the throwing knives. In TL, Jar carries both a belted sword and a belted dirk, as well as promising that his throwing daggers would return to him.
At any rate, it would appear that eventually the belted weapons were considered superfluous for such a magically-connected fellow as Jarlaxle, so they were canned in favor of the elongation feature for the throwing daggers. This would seem to be a case of evolution of description of the character's gear, without a similar evolution of the artist's understanding.
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But some errors I have never really seen resolution too, like fact that, from the knowledge of everyone except Yvonne Baenre, and Jarlaxle himself I believe, Berg'inyon was the third born son of Yvonne Baenre, Gromph and Dantrag being his older brothers. I tried asking once on a RAS forum, and all I got as a response was "Well it's friggin House BAENRE, they can do whatever they want" and dismissed as me having too much time on my hands.
I do not recall that the books ever said that anyone had "knowledge" that Berg'inyon was the third born son of Matron Baenre. Do you have a source for that?
Berg'inyon was a third living son within the house, but that's not the same thing at all.
The other Baenre family members never seemed to talk about it, either way.
The question as to whom the third born son was, was left unanswered for several years (and books, until Servant of the Shard). RAS simply didn't discuss the issue in the books for a long time, though some readers were asking the question informally. But he eventually answered it in full.
So I don't understand the problem, as you see it.
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I mean, he mentions that Athans was the one person he thought of to put together the Reader's Guide, and aside from re-used pictures, there is some just outright incorrect stuff in it. Like the page on Jarlaxle, says his two favorite magic items are his eyepatch "which protects him from mind altering spells." when it does a hell of a lot more
Do you have a source on that? All I recall the eye patch ever doing was helping Jar to detect, and therefore guard himself, against psionic magic.
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and hit hat, which "allows him to assume the shape of any humanoid figure he desires." Hmm, interesting, i believe they meant Agatha's mask... but Jarlaxle, to my knowledge, never used it(although i believe he is in possession of it).
While the neverending list of Jarlaxle's magic items and new magic properties of existing items grows a little ridiculous even for me, there is nothing preventing Athans or RAS from announcing yet another new aspect of one of Jar's items at any time. This was a case of a new magical property being announced out of the blue, which was certainly jarring. But it didn't actually contradict any existing lore. So I think you might be reaching when you consider this new aspect of the hat to be "some just outright incorrect stuff".
But yeah, I do agree with your overall sentiment that lots of people seem to play fast and loose with the details of RAS's Drizzt stories. Sometimes even RAS himself does.
To whom it may concern: I offer my services to help minimize this in the future!  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Herkles
Seeker
82 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2009 : 11:29:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Rabiesbunny
The real problem I have with those books is simply that they influenced so many players, be it in Neverwinter Nights or in tabletop, to create drow. CG drow. With special-colored eyes. So much so that they changed drow from only have red eyes (in FRCS 3rd ed) to having any color eyes they want (I think it was mentioned in Underdark 3.5...or was it Player's Guide to Faerun?) to cater to people who wish to be more like Drizzt.
Actually drow could have diffrent eye color long before the Underdark 3.5 book came out. The old 2nd edition drow of the Underdark states this about drow eye color:
Most drow have red eyes. Others have green, brown, or black. Various shades of gray, even amber and rose-hued eyes are not unknown. All drow eyes tend to grow redder when they are angry or upset. Yellow eyes usually denote illness, disease, poisoning, or the presence of certain detrimental magics.
Blue and purple (and all the tints thereof) are the most unusual eye colors, and usually denote human or surface elven blood somewhere in the drow#146;s ancestry. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2009 : 14:31:09
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| Hey BEAST, were you secretly one of the writers for Reader's Guide? |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2009 : 15:47:00
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
It always seemed to me that whoever they were going to get to do new art for the books should be required to read all the books and incorporate all the details up to that point. While it was understandable that the original cover artists couldn't get all the details right for the first edition books, because they were being asked to do the covers while the books were still in development, there doesn't seem to be much excuse for later artists to miss major details. There just doesn't seem to be a big push by the overlords to get those details right, and without that, the artists don't do it themselves. They're too busy with too many different projects for too many different authors to get the details right on their own.
This is something that has bugged me for a while, all across the board... The thing that most blows my mind (other than Drizzt's funky gold headplate) was that WotC decided to change the description of drow to make it easier on the artists -- someone decided that despite the fact that previous artists had depicted black-skinned drow, that it was too difficult for artists to do. Rather than demand that artists actually deliver what they were paid for, WotC changed the drow description to say they sometimes have grey or blue skin. 
It's not just the drow, though. There's things like the depiction of Alustriel with brown hair, that weird gold-elf looking version of Kyriani in City of Splendors: Waterdeep, or that incredibly misplaced warforged in the Grand History.
Maybe it's just me, but I think that when the customer asks for something, if the artist doesn't deliver exactly what was asked for, then the artist shouldn't be paid. And if you're going to commission artwork, you need to provide a complete description of what you want -- maybe not the book in question, but a complete enough description that the artist could get it right.
And 2E did have some recycled art, but 3E was really bad about it -- and I've already seen complaints about the same thing in 4E.
On the topic of notches -- I always assumed they were on the handle, not the blade. |
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2009 : 15:52:18
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| I would happy if the warriors just wore clothes. I wouldn't be comfortable walking through the woods in some of the outfits these drow wear to a swordfight. And that would help with the skin color issue. Show less skin! |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2009 : 20:20:39
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Cover paintings are usually done from short briefs: ones that match the text in detail are really rare.
That said, it's a shame that there are now hundreds of pieces of colour art supposedly set in the Realms, and a bare handful you can point to and say 'That really conveys what that place/person/kind of scene looks like.' Smells of art directors with too much money and too little care for world- or even brand-building.
In the original conception, male drow have orange to orange-yellow irises, and female drow amber or very rarely violet. |
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Stranjer
Acolyte
18 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2009 : 07:58:49
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Not to be snippy, but you just kinda contradicted yourself, here. Your disappointment doesn't seem to be with "Drizzt", but with other people and things. This scroll seems mislabeled, in that case.
I agree, I suppose, just couldnt think of a way to describe the scroll aptly. Maybe I should have just labeled it "disappointment" but that seems far too vague.
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It always seemed to me that whoever they were going to get to do new art for the books should be required to read all the books and incorporate all the details up to that point. While it was understandable that the original cover artists couldn't get all the details right for the first edition books, because they were being asked to do the covers while the books were still in development, there doesn't seem to be much excuse for later artists to miss major details. There just doesn't seem to be a big push by the overlords to get those details right, and without that, the artists don't do it themselves. They're too busy with too many different projects for too many different authors to get the details right on their own.
I believe Elaine mentioned before that typically the artist are given details about what they should be drawing written by the author. She also said she gave her personal contact info, and that Lockwood was one of the very few to contact her, and discuss detail one Liriel and crew when he was doing new covers for Starlight and Shadows trilogy, which he also mentions on his website. Having them read the books likely wouldn't do too much, for the most part. With the Drizzt books, that might have been a keen option, given their popularity. But for most of the books, it just seems unnecessary. Lockwood is a big step up, and I don't think wizards wants to be too picky. I personally would just like for the artist to actually learn from any details that are pointed out, for a later date (i.e. someone pointing out the drizzt swords looking different, and describing at least history of both, let him think of design, or of Jarlaxle having no visible weapon later on at least) so they are habitually repeated.
And yeah, Lockwood is a very nice step up from the Sean Connery Drizzt on The Legacy, or the awkwardly young Yvonne Baenre of Siege of Darkness. Heck, those weren't too terrible compared to the original covers of Daughter of the Drow, which, according to Elaine, the artist decided to ignore her remarks on character description, and instead drew a portrait of him standing behind his wife, who he had recolored to have black skin and white hair. And that picture is ugly too.
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Maybe it does, but we're just not being given high enough of a resolution in the paintings in order to see those notches. Mithral is a pretty hard metal. The notches could just be really, really faint.
Bruenor might even sharpen them out of the edge from time to time. "Many-notched axe" doesn't necessarily mean that the axe presently bears multiple notches. It might just mean that the axe has been notched multiple times throughout its history, but it doesn't necessarily continue to show those notches at this time.
I kinda like the idea that the king's axe would be above being allowed to go notched for long. I'd like to think of it as being fixed and prepped for the next battle, as a matter of course.
Well, from what I assumed, the notches were made intentionally, more or less as an attempt to keep track of his kills. As a grim trophy of sorts, though I suppose that doesn't make much sense later on, there wouldn't be a blade less. And lol at the resolution reference.
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He was described in this fashion in some of the earlier books (The Legacy, Siege of Darkness), and apparently it stuck in TL's mind.
It is unclear whether RAS originally intended for the belted sword to also be one of Jarlaxle's magically-elongated daggers, or if it was truly supposed to be an additional weapon beyond the throwing knives. In TL, Jar carries both a belted sword and a belted dirk, as well as promising that his throwing daggers would return to him.
At any rate, it would appear that eventually the belted weapons were considered superfluous for such a magically-connected fellow as Jarlaxle, so they were canned in favor of the elongation feature for the throwing daggers. This would seem to be a case of evolution of description of the character's gear, without a similar evolution of the artist's understanding.
Was it like that? Hmm, I do need to go back and re-read those. I had lent my earlier edition collector's set to a girl in one of my classes, but never really got them back. At least now i can buy the new hardcovers (despite my complaining, I am fond of Lockwoods art in general and the new covers are very well drawn, I am just overly enamored of details I suppose).
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I do not recall that the books ever said that anyone had "knowledge" that Berg'inyon was the third born son of Matron Baenre. Do you have a source for that?
Berg'inyon was a third living son within the house, but that's not the same thing at all.
The other Baenre family members never seemed to talk about it, either way.
The question as to whom the third born son was, was left unanswered for several years (and books, until Servant of the Shard). RAS simply didn't discuss the issue in the books for a long time, though some readers were asking the question informally. But he eventually answered it in full.
So I don't understand the problem, as you see it.
The "knowledge" argument I am not sure I fully understand. If you mean that, in reality, he could be Triel or one of the other elder daughter's of Yvonne Baenre's child, its mentioned in Servant of the Shard that "...his mother, the powerful Matron Baenre, had led a disastrous assault on a dwarven kingdom, ending in her death and throwing all the great drow city into utter chaos."
Now, if you mean that others wouldn't know that Berg'inyon was her son, I mean, Its Menzoberranzan, they are drow. They don't lack in the magic necessary to find this out, through priestly divinations to Lloth or through other, non-Lloth divinations. And given priestess disposition, very well including Matron Baenre's, I doubt she would have put much effort into concealing it(after all, he is only a male). If it was greatly concealed fact, that would be something that needed to be explained.
Or if you are saying that that they don't think Gromph or Dantrag were her sons, or that they werent actually, pretty much same thing. I suppose you somehow could argue that not many knew of Dantrag, but I believe he did parades as the leader of the Baenre Lizard Riders, and prided himself as the best weaponsmaster after Zak. Don't really see that being kept secret for long.
And while RAS did tell us who the thirdborn was, that wasn't really the point. As was mentioned later, only Yvonne, and a slight chance of Gromph, knew. Well, and Lloth. The moment another son was born and they let it lived, most of the city(in fact, probably all the daughters too) would try to claim Baenre was out of Lloth's favor or directly going against Lloth's edicts.
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Do you have a source on that? All I recall the eye patch ever doing was helping Jar to detect, and therefore guard himself, against psionic magic.
It does detect, and help him prevent psionic attacks, so if he wanted to he could allow some through. It also, source being the sellswords series allowed him to detect a telepathic message sent between Canthan, Athrogate, and Ellery, and Entreri mentioned that it has x-ray style properties ("You have the eyepatch, why don't you just look through the bed and see if she is under there"). Of course, these could be lies, and they do mention that he changes his items functions, but tries to keep them looking similar, most of the time.
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While the neverending list of Jarlaxle's magic items and new magic properties of existing items grows a little ridiculous even for me, there is nothing preventing Athans or RAS from announcing yet another new aspect of one of Jar's items at any time. This was a case of a new magical property being announced out of the blue, which was certainly jarring. But it didn't actually contradict any existing lore. So I think you might be reaching when you consider this new aspect of the hat to be "some just outright incorrect stuff".
Hmm, yeah, I suppose you are right. The hat itself was never before mentioned to do anything(that I am aware of). But honestly, given my sentiment, can you blame me for not thinking they got 2 items from the series confused? Also, was it mentioned that it was a new property somewhere? I still havent gotten around to browsing RAS.com forums, and I know he has a Q&A thread there. And it would have had to of been later on, imo. I doubt Jar would really gone into the towns in SotS undisguised if he had an easy way of doing it.
Also, wasn't it mentioned in that one short story when Piter wsa introduced and Kimmuriel replaced most of Jarlaxle's items the he took back the feather, because he had "grown quite fond of it"? Still think that make better sense to use as one of his "favorite magical item's" then a function of his hat he doesnt actually use.
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Edited by - Stranjer on 30 Apr 2009 08:01:49 |
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Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2009 : 08:03:46
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Beast:
I wish i could remember which books it said it in but Jarlaxles eye patch does provide him with magical protection(from someone gaining access to his mind)
as well as psionic protection.Though I could have misread that passage(I'm sure it was when he was speaking with Triel in the beginning of Starless night, When he had the ability to "cover" his lie by letting Triel detect one to let her believe her spell was in place)
To the rest who complain about "clones " of Drizzt :
I just want to point out that most of them prob were pre-teens like myself who when they read the novels were so into Drizzt that they wanted to be like him(D&d charcter wise). Granted my first characters were an assassin(Artemis) and a Kender(tasslehoff) based on the first two series i read back in 1989-1991. But if everyone would have kept playing around me i would have eventually had a Drizzt clone as well. So lighten up alittle :). How impressionable were you at that age? |
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Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2009 : 08:13:08
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Just want to add another point. This is my opinion and should be taken as you wish.
I recall hearing quite frequently that based on a contract when TsR/Wotc took over FR from Ed that all novels approved by Wotc is considered canon. So in my mind, and since RAS was the second author to have a novel in FR, that whatever he has in print should be considered the correct lore unless it is officially retconned by WOTC. without him The drow were just monsters in the Monster Companion back in 1987.(Crystal shard published 1988, Darkwalker on Moonshae was the only other published novel at that time). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2009 : 08:25:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
Just want to add another point. This is my opinion and should be taken as you wish.
I recall hearing quite frequently that based on a contract when TsR/Wotc took over FR from Ed that all novels approved by Wotc is considered canon. So in my mind, and since RAS was the second author to have a novel in FR, that whatever he has in print should be considered the correct lore unless it is officially retconned by WOTC. without him The drow were just monsters in the Monster Companion back in 1987.(Crystal shard published 1988, Darkwalker on Moonshae was the only other published novel at that time).
With Ed, however, it was explicitly spelled out in his contract. I don't think anyone else can say that. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2009 : 10:37:41
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Just so I don't get my facts muddled up wasn't it Ed who claimed "all novels should be considered canon".
P.S I know Ed is the only author who doesn't need approval for his work to be canon. Though it is quite often ret-conned ;) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2009 : 15:09:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
Just so I don't get my facts muddled up wasn't it Ed who claimed "all novels should be considered canon".
P.S I know Ed is the only author who doesn't need approval for his work to be canon. Though it is quite often ret-conned ;)
Actually, all novels are canon, except for those specifically related to video games. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2009 : 15:30:38
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quote:
Originally posted by StranjerI mean, most of my disappointment has more to do with the Drizzt publications and things not made by RAS, but endorsed either by him or by wizards as offical...the "Reader's Guide to Drizzt" which at times, I wish they just didn't put pictures in, rather then stupidly re-use pictures from various sourcebooks, some of which make no sense(anyone have a list of how many pictures were re-used?
While I agree that many of the pictures didn't fit, some were great (like Sos'Umptu), and overall I found the book to be an enjoyable read. It made me feel a bit nostaglic, as it only covers Drizzt's adventures up to Sea of Swords and doesn't go beyond that (overall I don't care for the newer Drizzt books).
I'm not overly enamored of Todd Lockwood's work, myself. Don't get me wrong, sometimes I think it's great, but I've always found his elves to be a bit weird looking, and I also don't entirely care for the way the RAS characters (and Drizzt's swords) have been "reimagined" for the new covers. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 30 Apr 2009 15:33:25 |
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Stranjer
Acolyte
18 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2009 : 15:54:46
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Concerning canon/not canon details, I personally dont care that much. I like seeing everything brought together in a shared world, but I still veiw each author doing their own little play in the sandbox. Some things bother me a lot, like Maztica, Zakhara, and in general Douglas Niles (good author, don't get me wrong, enjoyed reading his books, but none of them seemed to fit, really). But in general, like I said, if an author, like RAS, tries to stay somewhat away from the limelight as far as his characters interaction with the established realms, but ends up having to toss a few characters in here in there (just to remind you where you are lol) then I couldn't care less how he does it, unless he does something drastic with them.
And the canon arguement is somewhat moot. Anything published with the FR license, in my opinion, would be considered canon until it becomes ret-conned. Ed's initial deal with TSR was anything he says, more or less, is canon until WotC (or TSR back in the day) says otherwise. No other author I believe is ever going to have that power over the realms, least of all another non-WotC official author like Ed, RAS, or Elaine. And of course, all of them have to watch their step for the NDAs. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2009 : 18:41:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
Just so I don't get my facts muddled up wasn't it Ed who claimed "all novels should be considered canon".
P.S I know Ed is the only author who doesn't need approval for his work to be canon. Though it is quite often ret-conned ;)
Actually, all novels are canon, except for those specifically related to video games.
Weren't the Baldur's Gate novels considered canon (I remember a debate about this - actually a couple of debates about this).
And isnt it the Double Diamond Saga considered not-canon? |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2009 : 00:58:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
Just so I don't get my facts muddled up wasn't it Ed who claimed "all novels should be considered canon".
P.S I know Ed is the only author who doesn't need approval for his work to be canon. Though it is quite often ret-conned ;)
Actually, all novels are canon, except for those specifically related to video games.
Weren't the Baldur's Gate novels considered canon (I remember a debate about this - actually a couple of debates about this).
And isnt it the Double Diamond Saga considered not-canon?
Yes, the BG novels are canon -- so says WotC and the authors of the novels.
And, of course, the games cannot be considered FR canon, as the author, Drew Karpyshyn says, "because of their multiple endings, the BG games can't be considered 'official' in the FR world."
As for the "Double Diamond" novels... it would appear WotC assume some parts are canon [or at least would've been], given the reference in the 'Doppelganger' entry of Monsters of Faerūn. WotC tell us that when the timeline reached 1377 DR, some form of those novels would have become canon.
But with the time-jump, it's uncertain now whether these "parts" were specifically noted on the timeline. Until we have heard otherwise, I'm inclined to assume that they are canon.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 01 May 2009 01:02:05 |
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Cbad285
Learned Scribe
160 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2009 : 01:03:20
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quote:
The real problem I have with those books is simply that they influenced so many players, be it in Neverwinter Nights or in tabletop, to create drow. CG drow. With special-colored eyes. So much so that they changed drow from only have red eyes (in FRCS 3rd ed) to having any color eyes they want (I think it was mentioned in Underdark 3.5...or was it Player's Guide to Faerun?) to cater to people who wish to be more like Drizzt.
If for no other reason than respect for Drizzt as a character, and possibly an NPC if you're the kind of DM that I am. You ruin the entire flavor of what makes a Drow great, simply by washing out the culture of the race with RAS lore. Now should you find yourself involved with a character who has similar ethos with Drizzy, far be it from me or anyone to throw rocks at you for being one of the many Drizz-it Acult. But without a doubt, that character will still be a Drow at the end of the day...which if you read between the lines, Drizzt really no longer IS. IMO
So theres my two cents.
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"Beware the Dream Fever!" |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2009 : 07:16:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Hey BEAST, were you secretly one of the writers for Reader's Guide?
Heh. If I had been, there probably wouldn't have been as many misnakes mistakes.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Maybe it's just me, but I think that when the customer asks for something, if the artist doesn't deliver exactly what was asked for, then the artist shouldn't be paid. And if you're going to commission artwork, you need to provide a complete description of what you want -- maybe not the book in question, but a complete enough description that the artist could get it right.
Good call, on both counts.
Perhaps the management just doesn't want to/cannot build enough lead time into the publication process to ensure that all this info is exchanged far enough in advance. Perhaps management doesn't want to get caught with its pants down one month before the big day only to find out that it has no cover at all, because management has been too much of a stickler over details.
Sadly, sometimes it seems that management only wants covers to be exciting or intriguing to sell the books, but could care less about their accuracy. 
quote:
On the topic of notches -- I always assumed they were on the handle, not the blade.
Yeah, back in The Crystal Shard (P1:C8), the narrator voice did say that Bruenor had more notches to put in the handle, as a result of the battle against the Icewind Dale barbarians.
Maybe that's the real reason why Bruenor upgraded from a mere battleaxe to a great axe over time: because he was running out of room to keep score on the little axe haft! |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2009 : 07:21:20
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(Double post. I split this from the previous post for reasons of length.)
quote:
Originally posted by Stranjer
I am just overly enamored of details I suppose).
I'm not sure that's even possible, mate.
quote:
The "knowledge" argument I am not sure I fully understand.
It sounded as if you were asserting that everyone knew that Berg'inyon was the third born son of House Baenre:
quote:
But some errors I have never really seen resolution too, like fact that, from the knowledge of everyone except Yvonne Baenre, and Jarlaxle himself I believe, Berg'inyon was the third born son of Yvonne Baenre, Gromph and Dantrag being his older brothers.
I was questioning whether this was indeed knowledge of everyone, or anyone at all.
Surely Berg'inyon himself must've known that he couldn't have possibly been the third born son, for otherwise he would've had to have been one especially paranoid guy, wondering when the axe was finally gonna drop--er, when the sacrificial dagger was finally gonna drop. Why wasn't he sacrificed as a baby, if everyone supposedly knew that he was the third born male?
quote:
The moment another son was born and they let it lived, most of the city(in fact, probably all the daughters too) would try to claim Baenre was out of Lloth's favor or directly going against Lloth's edicts.
Though Matron Baenre probably could've quelled any murmurrings of rebellion easily enough, still, it would've been interesting to see how the other matron mothers broached the subject of a third son suddenly showing up within House Baenre (Dantrag, I believe) and his not being summarily sacrificed. Surely she had to provide some explanation to the Ruling Council as to what had happened to the real third born son, even if she never revealed his actual identity.
quote:
The hat itself was never before mentioned to do anything(that I am aware of).
In Road of the Patriarch (P2:C16), as Jar and his Bregan D'aerthe contingent prepare to breach the Citadel of Assassins, drow fighers float in, and then we're told that Jar tipped his great hat in order to enable its magical properties. But we're not told, then, exactly what those properties are. Perhaps the magical property in that particular context was unlimited levitation?
Later, we're told specifically that Jarlaxle tipped his hat to enact its levitation properties, and he floats up the side of a cliff overlooking Memnon (ROTP, P3:C24).
(This is, of course, not to mention the fabric disk inside the hat which operates as a bag of holding.)
quote:
But honestly, given my sentiment, can you blame me for not thinking they got 2 items from the series confused?
Not at all. When reading A Reader's Guide, which I personally like to call the ARGhhh!, I get the impression that a whole lot of people were confused about a whole lot of things... 
quote:
Also, was it mentioned that it was a new property somewhere?
No, it's just that the ARG was the first time that we were specifically told that the hat had anything to do with an apparent polymorph ability. It was a new mention of such a property at least, if not a new property outright.
quote:
I doubt Jar would really gone into the towns in SotS undisguised if he had an easy way of doing it.
I agree. And because we're told that he was instantly recognized as a drow and especially noticeable because of his outrageous hat wherever he went throughout the "The Sellswords" novels and associated short stories, methinks he had no or had no use for such an item of disguise.
quote:
Also, wasn't it mentioned in that one short story when Piter wsa introduced and Kimmuriel replaced most of Jarlaxle's items the he took back the feather, because he had "grown quite fond of it"? Still think that make better sense to use as one of his "favorite magical item's" then a function of his hat he doesnt actually use.
Yeah, in "Empty Joys". |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2009 : 09:06:11
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| Well there was at least one house that knew of Jarlaxles fate. House Obdorla(?spell) since they played a part in it. I recall reading somewhere that the psionic feat ended up killing a preistess when she lifted the child and Matron Bearne order the child thrown into Donigarten but we know that didn't happen. :) So more than likely Matron Bearne lied about sacrificing Jarlaxle( A drow lying prepostorous I know isn't it) |
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Stranjer
Acolyte
18 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2009 : 11:29:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
Well there was at least one house that knew of Jarlaxles fate. House Obdorla(?spell) since they played a part in it. I recall reading somewhere that the psionic feat ended up killing a preistess when she lifted the child and Matron Bearne order the child thrown into Donigarten but we know that didn't happen. :) So more than likely Matron Bearne lied about sacrificing Jarlaxle( A drow lying prepostorous I know isn't it)
It wasn't a priestess, iirc. I can't seem to recall details(maybe BEAST will be able to, I dont wish to rummage through my various boxes again looking for the right book and spending time, albeit enjoyable time, finding that passage) but I remember it was a male. And I want to say it was in Road to the Patriarch. And my problem isn't with Jarlaxle. Hell, the rest of the family thought he was dead any, figured it was death by drowning in Donigarten, or death by being a newborn in Menzo(THAT would be a story to see, the life and times of Jarlaxle). My problem was, Matron Baenre was never quiet about the fact that Gromph, "the Archmage" was her son, or that Dantrag was one of the best fighters in the city, and was also her son. Dantrag and Gromph both call Berg'inyon brother. I don't see how Berg'inyon wouldn't have known he was third born, they probably would have reminded him about it daily (to know his place). And I highly doubt the people in Menzoberranzan didn't know. I mean, they can count can't they? If they thought Berg'inyon was the son of one of Yvonne's daughters, they would have wondered, why, with such a long line(if it was Triel that would have been widespread knowledge as well) wouldn't you honor Lloth by becoming a Matron of your own house, now that you had borne a fine warrior to be a weapons master. Only way they could get away with that is if Menzo believed Sos-Umptu(that was the one who loved Baenre Chapel right?) was his mother. She wouldn't leave that place for anything, least of all to worry about a house of her own. And with her, you have to reason most would not believe that lie. And it couldn't be a commoner, for he used the Baenre name, and claimed himself a Noble from day 1 at Melee-Magerethe. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2009 : 09:53:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Stranjer
It wasn't a priestess, iirc. I can't seem to recall details(maybe BEAST will be able to, I dont wish to rummage through my various boxes again looking for the right book and spending time, albeit enjoyable time, finding that passage) but I remember it was a male. And I want to say it was in Road to the Patriarch.
It was Doquaio, the then-Secondboy of House Baenre (ROTP, P3:C20).
quote:
I don't see how Berg'inyon wouldn't have known he was third born, they probably would have reminded him about it daily (to know his place). And I highly doubt the people in Menzoberranzan didn't know. I mean, they can count can't they?
If Berg'inyon was third born son, then he would've been sacrificed, or at least nearly sacrificed. We know that that didn't happen; somebody else was nearly sacrificed for being the real third born son: Jarlaxle.
Thus, Berg'inyon was only the third living son within the house (as opposed to third born).
And I'm thinking everyone must've known that he was only the third living son, too, for otherwise there would've been a big controversy over why Matron Baenre had ever allowed him to live. His being alive must've clued the Menzoberranyr in to the fact that something had gone awry with the third born son, in order for there to ever be a third living son. Only the first time there is a third born son is the third born automatically sacrificed (as opposed to a third living son), so the existence of a third living son was evidence that someone else had been born and sacrificed (as far as most people knew).
Actually, the existence of older brother Dantrag Baenre must've clued the Menzoberranyr in to the fact that there had been a hiccup in House Baenre, much earlier on. By the time younger Berg'inyon appeared, the fact that a third-born son snafu had occurred in the house must've been old news for everyone who tracked these sorts of things. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2009 : 10:14:18
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Well if you really want to get technical about it.;) Dantrag is the third living son based on the name BEAST provided above.
Let's assume this is the order (for clarification of my post):
Gromph: I think he was born before Dantrag right?
Duquao:(died from psionic energy built up in Jarlaxle, thus freeing Jarlaxle from the
fate of the third born son rule. Similiar to the circumstances of how Drizzt was breought into the world. I.e Dinin driving his sword into Nalfien's back in Homeland thus freeing Drizzt from being sacrificed). This is why i believe House Baerne never lost favor because "technically" a third son was given to Lolth
Jarlaxle: Third born son who was supposed to be sacrificed(but we know why and how he wasn't)
Dantrag: Technically the third living son of Matron Baerne then became secondboy upon Duquaio's death
Bergnyon(?): The fourth living son of Matron Baerne( last seen by me in Jarlaxle's Braegen D'earthe)
So there you have it(Unless BEAST makes corrections) the lineage of the sons of Matron Baerne.
2 questions:
1. It is a one time affair when they sacrifice the third born son right?
2. Whats with the "D" named secondboys(Dantag, Dinin, Drizzt, Duquaio) |
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Disappointment in Drizzt
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