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Stranjer
Acolyte
18 Posts |
 Posted - 03 May 2009 : 06:49:24
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Third born or third living, you are forgetting one thing. If it was just third BORN that was sacrificed, why was Drizzt spared? No, it is the third LIVING son that is sacrificed. That way no single house will have more then two sons of the matron, to limit the presence or power of males in the houses. I think if a new matron takes place, the limit resets or something (like when Triel took over House Baenre, Gromph may not be counted anymore, but I'm not sure, just seems like some houses have more then 2 noble males, so there has to be a factor there)
So in the end, Berg'inyon was born under similar, if not exact same, circumstances as Drizzt, with 2 older brothers. We know what Drizzt was spared, and that was because after Nalfein died he was no longer the third-living son. I assume Berg'inyon being spared had something to do with the unusual favor Lloth shows House Baenre, but I always found it odd that it never was really explained, and apparently few questioned it. I think RAS would do nicely to explain in a Short Story somewhere the events surrounding that, but then again, there are more stories I'd rather hear told. This I just kind of want explained, and I know he probably just overlooked something, and would have to come up with an explanation, and I am fine with that. Just say something like "Berg'inyon was allowed to be born beforehand, Lloth ordained it, etc" or something. Like I said, I understand everyone forgets things, and make mistakes, I just kind of want the mistakes to be pointed out, and owned up to. I dont really care that they happened. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2009 : 08:58:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
Well if you really want to get technical about it.;) Dantrag is the third living son based on the name BEAST provided above.
I was trying to be technical when I said "third living son within the house". Jarlaxle doesn't count because he was officially disowned and actually got a batchelor pad elsewhere! 
I will be even more technical now by using the nomenclature "third simultaneously living son within the house".
By the time Dantrag was born (fourth born son, I believe), Doquaio had already been offed, and Jarlaxle had already been whisked away. So Dantrag was the Secondboy of House Baenre. (Ironically enough, one passage in Siege of Darkness {P1:C1} actually refers to Dantrag as having been Matron Baenre's "eldest son"--but we know that that cannot be true, in light of Gromph.)
quote:
2 questions:
1. It is a one time affair when they sacrifice the third born son right?
Yep. RAS said so in an interactive chat, once. <Somebody once asked.> And then <he answered> that it only happens the first time there are three living sons. After that, there can then be four, five, six, etc., living sons at the same time.
quote:
Originally posted by Stranjer
Third born or third living, you are forgetting one thing. If it was just third BORN that was sacrificed, why was Drizzt spared? No, it is the third LIVING son that is sacrificed.
It is the third living son the first time there are three simultaneously living sons.
Berg'inyon was the third living son at the time of his birth, but it was not the first time there had been three living sons in House Baenre, so he was not sacrificed. That is why he was spared.
Drizzt was spared because his big bro Nalfein was killed right before Drizzt was born, which meant that there were not three simultaneously living sons within House Do'Urden at the time of Drizzt's birth. He was not spared because some would-be first-time third living Do'Urden son had already been sacrificed, as in the case of Berg'inyon of House Baenre.
So the situations are pretty different.
quote:
That way no single house will have more then two sons of the matron, to limit the presence or power of males in the houses.
RAS has said that the first-time third living son is automatically sacrificed as a matter of custom. Sourcebooks have indicated that drow are typically killed in order to curry Lolth's favor in upcoming campaigns or projects. RAS has tentatively agreed with me that perhaps currying divine favor was the origin of the custom. At any rate, there has been no official confirmation of your theory, as of yet, AFAIK. Sure makes sense as a possible consideration in the minds of matron mothers, though.
But be advised that a drow house can certainly have more than two simultaneously living sons within the house. In Starless Night, House Baenre had Gromph, Dantrag, and Berg'inyon.
According to Homeland (P1:C4), Matron Baenre had birthed five males before Berg'inyon. The four that have been named are 1) Gromph, 2) Doquaio, 3) Jarlaxle, and 4) Dantrag. We don't know who the fifth was, or if he was younger or older than Dantrag. The fact that a fifth son was said to have been born to Matron Baenre, but was never mentioned specifically by name, could mean that he died a long time ago. Or maybe he's a minor player in Bregan D'aerthe, which would render him disowned and unworthy of being named.
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So in the end, Berg'inyon was born under similar, if not exact same, circumstances as Drizzt, with 2 older brothers. We know what Drizzt was spared, and that was because after Nalfein died he was no longer the third-living son.
Drizzt was never the third living son. Nalfein got whacked before Drizzt was born. Drizzt was only the third born son, before there had ever been three simultaneously living sons of House Do'Urden. He was only ever Secondboy--never Thirdboy. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 03 May 2009 09:08:14 |
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Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2009 : 09:08:33
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| Technically(there's that word again) Drizzt was both the third living and third born at the same time. In Homeland Briza urgently asks Matron Malice to "Name the child" anxious to feed her goddess and was about to plunge the blade down when Maya stopped her when she noticed that she was no longer merged with Nalfein. So right before Nalfien death there were 3 living sons in the house of Do'urden? :) |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2009 : 07:11:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
Technically(there's that word again) Drizzt was both the third living and third born at the same time.
Good catch.
Malice so should've whacked D-boy.
So she got exactly what she deserved when she got whacked, herself, in Exile, since she was such a rule-breaker like that. It was just a forty-year delayed reaction! 
I guess the fine print of the ritual is that the third living son must be sacrificed while there are still three living sons. There were three living sons briefly, but the window closed up on Malice, and she then--ironically enough--had her opening to get out of it!  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2010 : 18:57:47
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
It was Doquaio, the then-Secondboy of House Baenre (ROTP, P3:C20).
quote:
I don't see how Berg'inyon wouldn't have known he was third born, they probably would have reminded him about it daily (to know his place). And I highly doubt the people in Menzoberranzan didn't know. I mean, they can count can't they?
If Berg'inyon was third born son, then he would've been sacrificed, or at least nearly sacrificed. We know that that didn't happen; somebody else was nearly sacrificed for being the real third born son: Jarlaxle.
Thus, Berg'inyon was only the third living son within the house (as opposed to third born).
And I'm thinking everyone must've known that he was only the third living son, too, for otherwise there would've been a big controversy over why Matron Baenre had ever allowed him to live. His being alive must've clued the Menzoberranyr in to the fact that something had gone awry with the third born son, in order for there to ever be a third living son. Only the first time there is a third born son is the third born automatically sacrificed (as opposed to a third living son), so the existence of a third living son was evidence that someone else had been born and sacrificed (as far as most people knew).
Actually, the existence of older brother Dantrag Baenre must've clued the Menzoberranyr in to the fact that there had been a hiccup in House Baenre, much earlier on. By the time younger Berg'inyon appeared, the fact that a third-born son snafu had occurred in the house must've been old news for everyone who tracked these sorts of things.
Nice thinking. I didn't notice the then-secondboy's name in RotP.
quote:
Yep. RAS said so in an interactive chat, once. <Somebody once asked.> And then <he answered> that it only happens the first time there are three living sons. After that, there can then be four, five, six, etc., living sons at the same time.
Why wasn't it said in Menzo boxed set, or in any other sourcebook about the drow? Would have saved much confusion... |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2010 : 02:54:40
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| Didn't read the entire thread, but to the OP, don't forget the lack of Ranger spells for Drizz't. Thanks to 3E, it can be said he "traded magic use for bonus feats" or something, but before 3E it boggled my mind as to why he never used ranger spells? |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2010 : 04:14:23
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| Maybe at that time he had low ranger level? |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2010 : 06:42:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
Maybe at that time he had low ranger level?
Nah. Earliest stat write-up (FR7-Hall of Heroes, 1E stats), he was a 10th-level ranger (and in 1E rangers got their druid spells at 8th level, and their first magic-user spells at 9th level). In Hall of Heroes, for 2R, he's listed as a 16th-level ranger, and the stat write-up includes the priest spells (animal and plant sphere only, as per 2E rules) that he would normally have memorized. |
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Saxmilian
Learned Scribe
USA
157 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2010 : 22:41:21
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Perhaps i missed it during everyone debating over the 3rd so or the third living son to be scarificed, but was is ever said that it was the norm in ALL houses, or only House Do'Urden? We know Jaraxle was to be sacrificed, but was it said because he was the third son, or for some other reason?
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woodwwad
Learned Scribe
USA
267 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2010 : 22:47:44
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| Drizzt is IMO a terrible character, really a great example of everything that isn't good in D&D. Never liked him, in my group he's a joke. Calling something drizzt would be like calling it gay. He no sells everything, knows loads about just about everything, is extremely hoaky,& always complaining about how everyone is prejudice against him because of the color of his skin (which gets so tiresome). In the end he's a great template for how you should not play a character in an actual role-playing game. I know there are some basic hack 'n' slash high school type dms & players on here who would surely like these traits but I find it hard to even read his novel (although, I have read at least 7 of them, as there is some other content I enjoy within). He's my least favorite character in FR. |
Check out my reviews on youtube of Forgotten Realms and other rpg products. http://www.youtube.com/user/woodwwad?feature=mhum |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2010 : 22:48:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Saxmilian
Perhaps i missed it during everyone debating over the 3rd so or the third living son to be scarificed, but was is ever said that it was the norm in ALL houses, or only House Do'Urden? We know Jaraxle was to be sacrificed, but was it said because he was the third son, or for some other reason?
Yeah, in my post dated 03 May 2009 : 08:58:57, I gave links to an interactive thread with RAS in which someone else asked him, and he answered. It's the norm in all houses that the third living son be killed. House Do'Urden, in which Matron Malice made up an excuse not to carry through with this tradition at the last minute, was the exception. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2010 : 00:09:00
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quote:
Originally posted by woodwwad
Drizzt is IMO a terrible character, really a great example of everything that isn't good in D&D. Never liked him, in my group he's a joke. Calling something drizzt would be like calling it gay. He no sells everything, knows loads about just about everything, is extremely hoaky,& always complaining about how everyone is prejudice against him because of the color of his skin (which gets so tiresome). In the end he's a great template for how you should not play a character in an actual role-playing game. I know there are some basic hack 'n' slash high school type dms & players on here who would surely like these traits but I find it hard to even read his novel (although, I have read at least 7 of them, as there is some other content I enjoy within). He's my least favorite character in FR.
Not sure where the gay bashing fits in this scroll, hell it does not belong in these halls at all. That is exactly the type of stuff we do not need here. Or anywhere.
But if your tired of hearing a person get tired of unfairly being judged by their race or color, I'm guessing you have no problem with it. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 28 Jun 2010 00:10:53 |
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woodwwad
Learned Scribe
USA
267 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2010 : 01:18:36
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by woodwwad
Drizzt is IMO a terrible character, really a great example of everything that isn't good in D&D. Never liked him, in my group he's a joke. Calling something drizzt would be like calling it gay. He no sells everything, knows loads about just about everything, is extremely hoaky,& always complaining about how everyone is prejudice against him because of the color of his skin (which gets so tiresome). In the end he's a great template for how you should not play a character in an actual role-playing game. I know there are some basic hack 'n' slash high school type dms & players on here who would surely like these traits but I find it hard to even read his novel (although, I have read at least 7 of them, as there is some other content I enjoy within). He's my least favorite character in FR.
Not sure where the gay bashing fits in this scroll, hell it does not belong in these halls at all. That is exactly the type of stuff we do not need here. Or anywhere.
But if your tired of hearing a person get tired of unfairly being judged by their race or color, I'm guessing you have no problem with it.
I'll excuse your rant as I can understand why you got so upset, if I thought someone was compairing me to Drizzt I'd be outraged as well
But let's not hyjack this thread with your need to express your political agenda, if you feel you must discuss this, pm me. |
Check out my reviews on youtube of Forgotten Realms and other rpg products. http://www.youtube.com/user/woodwwad?feature=mhum |
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2010 : 01:30:37
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He may have used a poor choice of words to describt it, but woodwwad does have a point. I think you may have intentionally ignored the point entirely to focus on the fact that he used the word gay in a derogatory manner. (I'm sure you were 12 or 13 once, where 'gay' was the generic insult, and had little connection to actual homosexuality).
Drizzt is a highly angsty character who complains alot (often about racial issues, which, in the books, we got the point of very shortly into the series, after the original 3 books it's a bit like beating a dead horse with the repetition). He seems to be nigh invulnerable, and (in the novels I've read) rarely comes even close to losing in a fight.
I guess I'm saying: "Invulnerable + Angst" as a template for a character may work ok in novels and movies (though I prefer more depth in my stories), but it definitely does not work in a roleplaying game with a group.
He really IS an example of the type of personality that will annoy everyone in a gaming group. |
Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2010 : 02:04:25
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quote:
Originally posted by woodwwad
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by woodwwad
Drizzt is IMO a terrible character, really a great example of everything that isn't good in D&D. Never liked him, in my group he's a joke. Calling something drizzt would be like calling it gay. He no sells everything, knows loads about just about everything, is extremely hoaky,& always complaining about how everyone is prejudice against him because of the color of his skin (which gets so tiresome). In the end he's a great template for how you should not play a character in an actual role-playing game. I know there are some basic hack 'n' slash high school type dms & players on here who would surely like these traits but I find it hard to even read his novel (although, I have read at least 7 of them, as there is some other content I enjoy within). He's my least favorite character in FR.
Not sure where the gay bashing fits in this scroll, hell it does not belong in these halls at all. That is exactly the type of stuff we do not need here. Or anywhere.
But if your tired of hearing a person get tired of unfairly being judged by their race or color, I'm guessing you have no problem with it.
I'll excuse your rant as I can understand why you got so upset, if I thought someone was compairing me to Drizzt I'd be outraged as well
But let's not hyjack this thread with your need to express your political agenda, if you feel you must discuss this, pm me.
I have no political agenda, and if I did I would not push it here. I have been here for a long time, and have seen a lot, but for you to accuse me of hijacking this thread to express my political agenda when all I did was point out your poor expression of your feelings by using a slur as the most ridiculous and pathetic attempt to deflect blame I have ever seen here.
And as to the point that "hey when we were 12 or 13 ...everyone used gay" as a generic derogatory term......is just lame. Right is right and wrong is wrong.
I won't be pm'ing anyone to "set them right" or continue ranting here on this subject, or even reply to it again as it is just ludicrous that anyone would argue that it's ok to use gay as a negative , bad thing to be compared to.....and knowing Candlekeep as well as I do, i bet 99.99% of the scribe that have been here for any amount of time agree.
So back to the juvenile, homo-phobic slamming of "angsty" , too in touch with his feelings Drizzt. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2010 : 02:20:35
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Okay, I can understand Red Walker wishing to maintain some clarity on the odd side-topic that has popped up in this scroll.
However, for the rest of you, this isn't all that relevant to the actual subject of the scroll. I'm asking all scribes involved in this more recent turn of chatter, to refocus on the subject of Drizzt -- without any reference to real-world elements.
Keep it Realms-based.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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woodwwad
Learned Scribe
USA
267 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2010 : 02:22:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae
He may have used a poor choice of words to describt it, but woodwwad does have a point. I think you may have intentionally ignored the point entirely to focus on the fact that he used the word gay in a derogatory manner. (I'm sure you were 12 or 13 once, where 'gay' was the generic insult, and had little connection to actual homosexuality).
Drizzt is a highly angsty character who complains alot (often about racial issues, which, in the books, we got the point of very shortly into the series, after the original 3 books it's a bit like beating a dead horse with the repetition). He seems to be nigh invulnerable, and (in the novels I've read) rarely comes even close to losing in a fight.
I guess I'm saying: "Invulnerable + Angst" as a template for a character may work ok in novels and movies (though I prefer more depth in my stories), but it definitely does not work in a roleplaying game with a group.
He really IS an example of the type of personality that will annoy everyone in a gaming group.
The word gay was used, not as a poor word choice but as a proper word choice. As when thinking of Driz, I thought about the old gay commericial were gay political advocates were joking two girls using their names to discribe things that suck, in the same way they were using the term gay. Their, the gay political group that put the commercials, point was you shouldn't use the word gay to discribe something that sucked, because it hurts gay people's feelings. When seeing that commercial I decided the person's name that should be used in that context was Driz, the reason why I phrased that the way I did. If you will actually read, reading might be hard for some, you will not that the term gay wasn't used in a way were I was calling something gay. I clearly said I was using Driz in a way like the way someone would say that. Also, it is clean & I didn't want to use profanity to make my compairison. So damn people get a little thick skin. Political correctness is ruining this country & people have freedom of speech, so even if I had used gay to indicate something sucked that would be well within my rights, screaming for censorship is the sign of a cowardly, weak, and pathetic mind.
Now back to Drizbashing "Invulnerable + Angst," you hit it on the head there, man does this guy suck. I've always found it odd how people can like this guy. Driz really reminds me of that terrible fantasy show Heracules the Legendary Journey that was out a few years ago, plus he's so emo. |
Check out my reviews on youtube of Forgotten Realms and other rpg products. http://www.youtube.com/user/woodwwad?feature=mhum |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2010 : 02:29:20
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quote:
Originally posted by woodwwad
quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae
He may have used a poor choice of words to describt it, but woodwwad does have a point. I think you may have intentionally ignored the point entirely to focus on the fact that he used the word gay in a derogatory manner. (I'm sure you were 12 or 13 once, where 'gay' was the generic insult, and had little connection to actual homosexuality).
Drizzt is a highly angsty character who complains alot (often about racial issues, which, in the books, we got the point of very shortly into the series, after the original 3 books it's a bit like beating a dead horse with the repetition). He seems to be nigh invulnerable, and (in the novels I've read) rarely comes even close to losing in a fight.
I guess I'm saying: "Invulnerable + Angst" as a template for a character may work ok in novels and movies (though I prefer more depth in my stories), but it definitely does not work in a roleplaying game with a group.
He really IS an example of the type of personality that will annoy everyone in a gaming group.
The word gay was used, not as a poor word choice but as a proper word choice. As when thinking of Driz, I thought about the old gay commericial were gay political advocates were joking two girls using their names to discribe things that suck, in the same way they were using the term gay. Their, the gay political group that put the commercials, point was you shouldn't use the word gay to discribe something that sucked, because it hurts gay people's feelings. When seeing that commercial I decided the person's name that should be used in that context was Driz, the reason why I phrased that the way I did. If you will actually read, reading might be hard for some, you will not that the term gay wasn't used in a way were I was calling something gay. I clearly said I was using Driz in a way like the way someone would say that. Also, it is clean & I didn't want to use profanity to make my compairison. So damn people get a little thick skin. Political correctness is ruining this country & people have freedom of speech, so even if I had used gay to indicate something sucked that would be well within my rights, screaming for censorship is the sign of a cowardly, weak, and pathetic mind.
Now back to Drizbashing "Invulnerable + Angst," you hit it on the head there, man does this guy suck. I've always found it odd how people can like this guy. Driz really reminds me of that terrible fantasy show Heracules the Legendary Journey that was out a few years ago, plus he's so emo.
Wow, You just argued my point much better than I ever could have. Thank you and enjoy the Drizzt bashing.
Good night and sorry for side tracing Sage! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2010 : 02:34:12
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Okay, I'm going to temporarily close this scroll for a while, to provide scribes with some opportunity to re-consider their perspectives on this matter.
I'll re-open it sometime later this week.
*Casts Limited Seal Scroll* |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 28 Jun 2010 02:35:17 |
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Disappointment in Drizzt
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