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IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Dec 2008 : 17:30:15
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Hey, scribes and such. I've long found the bladesingers an intriguing subject, but the lack of lore on them is unfortunate. They're described as graceful and awe-inspiring champions of the People, but not much else is known. What are they really like? I play a moon elven bladesinger on a Neverwinter Nights RP server, and I figured it was time to promote the class a little to other folks too. And, perhaps, to create some local mythos and tradition for the bladesingers. So I/he wrote a short essay on bladesingers. It's his own interpretations of the tradition, but I've tried to build on canon as much as possible, adding some philosophy to it. I was hoping to get some pointers and feedback from others Realms fans, and CK is obviously the place to go for that. Don't mind the references to Amia and Irbryn Gyrah, the former is the homebrewn island of our module, and the latter is made up by me as background for the character. It's still the first edition, and I'll polish it after I get some feedback. Here it is, anyhow. Comment if anything comes to mind:
Foreword
For nineteen years now, I have walked the way of the bladesong. I once told this to a human warrior, and he said: it is an honour to meet such a renowned master of elven swordsmanship. I was amused, but refrained from correcting him so as not to insult his prowess. For surely it would be insulting to tell him, a veteran sellsword who had surely not had time to practice warcraft for any longer than two decades, that I can be called little more than a novice after such short training.
Preventing such awkard situations is one reason for writing this essay. Another is that I have experienced a distinct lack of knowledge about bladesingers on Amia, and indeed, a lack of those who practice this ancient art. I am well aware of the controversy I may stir in certain circles; circles that believe elven lore is better kept to elves, that such secrets is to be kept from the eyes of N'Tel'Quess. I sympathize with this notion, but only to an extent. As a servant of Labelas Enoreth and a scholar, the preservation of history and culture is important to me. I do not believe wisdom is to be hoarded, but spread and nurtured. If me writing this makes one human understand the People better, if it makes one elf inspired to pursue the song, it has been worth it. Though at this point, I must comfort the circles I referred to, and disappoint the one greedy for easy power: within these pages, I will reveal no great secrets of elven warcraft, no locations of elven treasure let alone shortcuts to mastering High Magic or something equally ridicilous. This is merely an introduction to the bladesong, based on my own experiences and known history. I hope it will serve both as a reminder for Tel'Quessir of Amia about their tradition and as a guidebook to the elven mind, for others.
Who are the bladesingers?
Oftentimes, I am asked whether I am a wizard, a bard or perhaps a spellsword. When I say I am a bladesinger, it's either met with blank stares or misinformed but polite admiration. Perhaps I can remedy this confusion. Each race and civilization has its champions. Many human kings are served by paladins, dwarven realms from the Great Rift to cold Vaasa are home to unyelding Defenders and even the Forgotten Folk have their brave breachgnomes. In elven realms, this role belongs to the bladesingers. Treasure hunters, wandering swordsmen, mysterious artist of magic and steel; we are all this, but first and foremost we protectors of the People. That is our primary concern, the purpose of our existance. It is what sets us apart from regular warriors, no matter how skilled, and makes the way of the bladesong a hard one to walk. Not only does the bladesinger need talent and determination, he must also devote his heart to the cause.
Bladesingers, as a group, are perhaps the most graceful and skilled swordsmen on Toril. In addition, we master spells to rival many a talented mage, and know how to create them safely and quickly in battle. As is the law of the planes, such power has to be balanced by great demands; not unlike the matter of paladins and their knightly codes. Those priviledged to learn the bladesong must swear to serve and defend the People and the Seldarine with their lives. This is no small oath to make, as the life of an elf is long and the enemies of the People are many. For many, the cost is too high and they're content to learn only the basics of the style, never reaching its truest nature. Those that do go all the way, however, must forever put the good of the People before their personal gain and even the safety of their friends. A bladesinger may never leave another elf undefended and in need of help, unless it is an unavoidable sacrifice for a mission greater still. Those that fail to uphold this principle must give up practicing the bladesong or be renounced in the eyes of the Seldarine. Indeed, even if a bladesinger falls and attempts to continue his art for personal gain, he will no longer reach the True Song. The style becomes but a shell without a heart, learned manouvers with no passion or devotion to give them true strength. This is what happened to the all-but-forgotten H'ei'Yal Drathinmaleé of Aryvandaar. The life of a bladesinger is often that of a loner, but every one of us draws power from the confidence that we are the People, and the People are as one. Wherever we walk, we mustn't turn our backs to the People, for the People do not turn their backs on us. No matter how long we are away from home, no matter how few friends we have indeed, even if we had no home or friends there will still be unity among Tel'Quessir, and we are part of that symbiosis in our own way.
This is a good moment to take a quick look at the history of bladesingers. By no means will this be a complete presentation, but I feel it is useful to connect the abstract ideas above to the living world. One legend tells that the style was created in the heavens and given to mortals by Corellon Larethian himself. Another claims it arrived on Toril with the Ar'Tel'Quessir who came from other worlds. This much is certain: its roots reach as as far as before the First Flowering, to the sun elves of Occidian, and the avariel. It was widely practiced in at least Aryvandaar, Illefarn, Ardeep, Syórpiir, Miyeritar and Shantel Othreier. Bladesingers also played a major part in the defense of Myth Drannor, the most legendary individual being Josidiah Starym: he who returned the Artblade, Spell-Major of the Akh'Faer and one on the Council of Twelve, the last defender of the Speculum in the Battle of Stars Shining. Unfortunately, the stories of other notable bladesingers haven't been as thoroughly documented as his. There is one legend I learned from my mentor: that of the Irbryn Gyrah, Birds of Prey. They were a band of seven bladesingers in late Illefarn, over three millenia ago. Relic hunters and wanderers, they never stayed in one place for long; a testimony to the suitability of their airborne totem animals. Nothing lasts forever, though, and the group split up after a daredevil raid against the Twisted Tower during the Elventh Rysar of Rystall Wood. It is said three of them fell in this battle, and the remaining four went seperate ways to pass on the legacy of the Birds on to another generation. I am an heir to this tradition, though I know not how many masters there have been before mine. Whether it is coincidence or a whim of the gods, my totem animal is also a bird of prey; the owl.
In modern days, the bladesinger tradition has become less prominent. Most of us work alone, whether we prefer it or not. The disappearance of elven realms on Faerūn and the Retreat has also brought about a decline in the ranks of bladesingers, and those who remain on the continent have no common hub of activity. This is further augmented by the fact that a bladesinger's training is always done one-on-one, with a deeply personal and dedicated relationship of master and apprentice. As the training takes decades, it is apparent why so few bladesinger groups see the light of day on Faerūn. The situation isn't quite the same on the Green Isle. There, the tradition of bladesinger lodges is still lively, though they are focused on defending Evermeet rather than travelling Faerūn as champions of all elves. I do not mean to critisize, but simply to point out the difference in outlook and why the bladesingers of Evermeet are of little help in revitalizing the tradition elsewhere. They do offer a fascinating view into the ancient traditions, though: groups of sun and moon elves, trained in the arts and magic but organized in a primitive fashion, each lodge represented by a totem animal that brings to mind the ways of the Sy'Tel'Quessir more than anything. Elven life has many aspects and our different races embody different ideals of the Seldarine, but it all blends together in the serene beauty that is the way of the bladesong.
The Way of the Bladesong
In the earlier chapter, I spoke of the elven way of ife. What does it mean and how is it connected to the bladesingers? As I have explained, we are champions of all elves and elven culture. But how can one be champion of something one does not know? An absurd notion, and therefore a bladesinger must embrace elven culture in all its aspects. That is why the training is so challenging, why apprenticeship lasts for decades and why it is such a rewarding path to walk. For war wizards, understanding the Weave, mastering new spells and developing their tactical skills is everything. For warriors, combat manouvers and physical training is enough to reach excellency. Minstrels know songs and lore. But bladesingers have to learn all these and more. We must know history in order to preserve it and to locate and retrieve artifacts of ancient elven realms, and to understand the wisdom of Labelas in all of us. We must know painting, sculpture, poetry and music to know the creative spirit of Corellon and Hanali inside us. We must be serene and balanced, so that Sehanine may come to us in Reverie. We must know the ways of the world, for only travelling and experience reveals the divine seeds Aerdrie, Deep Sashelas and Rillifane have planted in our souls. To hunt evil
is to know Solonor and Shevarash. We mustn't take ourselves too seriously, however, for to do so is to deny Erevan Ilesere. Finally, we must know the loneliness of Fenmarel and through it, come to love the unity and wholeness represented by Angharradh.
These are the first things a bladesinger is taught. Bladesong is not the way of the Sword, but the way of the World. If one is detached from life, one cannot understand it. And if one cannot understand life, one cannot defend it. Do not think this is the bladesong, though! This is only the basis on which bladesong must be built. After this understanding, begins rigorous training of the beautiful art that has struck awe or fear into those who have witnessed it in action. The three cornerstones of bladesong are art, magic and swordplay. These names are easy to understand, but one could also call them spirit, mind and skill. From these pillars grows harmony. Harmony is the essence of bladesong. It is in the humming of the whirling sword, the unfaltering steps of the warrior, the spells he casts with percision and purpose, and in the trance he enters to outperform even a much stronger foe. Harmony itself cannot be learned, but it is reached via training the three pillars.
Swordplay is the foremost passion and the primary weapon of the bladesinger. We train daily, striving to find the perfect balance of movements. The bladesinger rarely needs more protection than his speed and sword, for in the trance of the bladesong none but the most lucky and masterful of attacks can get through his defense. Ours is not an offensive style, but one of constant movement and distraction. Every strike we deal is precise and vital. I should not say more, lest some fool believes he can use such round-about knowledge to defeat us, and rushes straight to his sad death.
Magic supports swordsmanship, and we study it with the same patience wizards do. For us, however, magic is not its own goal. It is part of a balanced self, and a means to an end. The Song of Celerity is technique that allows us to hurl deadly evocations or weave cunning illusions in the heat of battle without losing focus or opening our defense for the enemy. Becoming as strong as a bull before facing an ogre half-again your size is also a preparation one shouldn't dismiss. Bladesingers' training focuses on battle magic, for learning the full spectrum of wizardry is impossible for those who dedicate anything less than their life to the task. A bladesinger's life is dedicated to something else.
Every bladesinger has a weapon that is his own, the symbol of steel and Weave united. Most often, and especially in modern days, this weapon is a thinblade, a longsword or a rapier. There is no fundamental restriction preventing the use of other balanced melee weapons, though. What is signifigant about the bladesinger's weapon is that it has become part of him. A soldier may buy a new sword for every major war, but a bladesinger will hold onto his chosen weapon forever. Choosing this weapon is an important rite of passage for bladesingers who have finished their apprenticeship. Traditionally, a family heirloom sword has been chosen. Lacking such, it's not uncommon to have one made for the bladesinger. My thinblade, Salka Tel'Osta, is an example of such. Forged by Thraldur of Winya, enchanted by two mages and myself, coated in alchemical silver, I hope to pass it on to generations to come when my time is done. It holds my soul, my devotion to all Tel'Quessir, and will hopefully define what it is to be bladesinger for another young warrior in the far future. It is more than a deadly weapon and a symbol of my training: for bladesingers, our weapons serve as conduits of magic. Eventually, we learn to cast spells through our blades and even store magic in them. These are challenging techniques, however, and few in today's Faerūn have truly mastered them.
Art, the refining of spirit, is the part of bladesingers' training that is the hardest to explain. It is what completes the harmony of the other two fields. Music and painting are arts of peace that correspond with magic and swordplay, arts of war. That is why they are so important to bladesingers. As the name of the tradition implies, music also plays a greater part in the bladesong itself. Bladesong, in the most concrete sense, is the music a bladesinger's whirling sword creates in battle. I accompany this with singing of my own, though that is a personal addition and not a traditional part of the style. However, music also has a deeper meaning. In the trance of the bladesong, it is music that guides the bladesinger's movements. When I transcend into the bladesong, it is not random melodies I create with my sword and voice. No, it is reflections of the universal harmonies that ring clear in my soul. Only when a warrior has advanced far enough to hear this song clearly, do they really practice the bladesong in the real meaning of the word. It is my belief, based on my research and experiences, that those elves and half-elves who fail to uphold the bladesingers' oaths lose contact to this divine melody. They will know magic and swordplay, but as the third pillar crumbles they can no longer reach harmony.
I have often wondered about the source of this harmony, the song that plays in a bladesinger's soul. I think it is reasonable to assume it is related to the inner power of monks and the faith of paladins. Sword sages of the East may have similar experiences, and perhaps even the raw energy of sorcerers is somehow connected to our power. Some hear it as song, others see it as order and light, and for some yet it is a pure ideal. Is there a building block of the multiverse, a seed in our souls that is common to all beings in all worlds? I do not know. However, the True Bladesong is a particular manifestation of such hypothetical power. It is the song of the elven soul, granted by the Seldarine and nurtured by our culture. That is why, even if knights can become extraordinary swordsmen and monks may learn to overcome to limitations of physicality, only Tel'Quessir or those of immediate elven descent can ever become bladesingers.
In Winya Ravana, island of Amia
29h Eleint, the Year of Lightning Storms
Kalliniel Galadhron
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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2008 : 19:47:50
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| Hey good stuff. I really had the feeling that it was an elf explaining things to me. |
If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.
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Edited by - dwarvenranger on 31 Dec 2008 21:19:54 |
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Dalmar Amad
Seeker
Germany
56 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2008 : 20:03:47
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Hi!
Love this article.
Your character seems to be a really devoted defender of the People.
It helps me a lot to come up with background for a NPC i'll soon need.
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2009 : 07:59:35
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Very well done. Such a rich development of your character!
I confess that, as a DM, the bladesinger has been a thorn in my side since its 2e incarnation. I found the rules for him overly complex, and too high-powered relative to other characters. It seemed to attract a certain type of player--not the sort of player who would put that much time and thought into writing up the class the way you have done. What you've written completely overcame my prejudice against the class.
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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ithildur
Acolyte
4 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2009 : 04:23:06
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Really enjoyed this; great stuff indeed.
One question, the part early on that hints that learning the path of the bladesinger is a very time consuming process (which fits the long lifespan of elves); how do you work this out in game terms with 3e/3.5e rules where you do not start out as a lvl 1/1 ftr/mage with the Bladesinger kit as in 2e, but you go through low and mid lvls as a (most likely) ftr/wiz until you can qualify for the PRC, then once you do qualify, you level up in bladesinger lvls just like any other class? ie If you're running a character with one lvl of bladesinger in a campaign, and in the course of the adventure you and the party gain enough xp for the next lvl, you don't indefinitely delay taking lvl 2 of bladesinger while the rest of the party lvls up as normal, do you? How do you handle this? |
Edited by - ithildur on 03 May 2009 04:25:23 |
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Penknight
Senior Scribe
USA
538 Posts |
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ithildur
Acolyte
4 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2009 : 13:04:28
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I know this is kinda geeky, lol, but saw this today and thought 'that's probably as close to the bladesinger's style as you can get in RL', single weapon, straight longsword, lots of emphasis on grace, speed, quickness, tapping/sweeping attacks away from the body rather than blocking with force, etc. It looks elegant and beautiful as he shows at the end, while being effective - just like the bladesong style.
Enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=na6dU1Oz18k&feature=channel
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IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2009 : 23:09:24
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The advancement, I imagine, really is problematic in your typical campaign. Personally, though, I don't have such a problem: I play and DM online on a Neverwinter Nights persistent world server, where my character has advanced freely for the last 3.5 years.
The way I look at it is that the bladesinger training begins before you take a single level in the PrC. It begins with learning the basics of magic and swordplay, those fighter/wizard/bard levels or whatever. And more importantly, it doesn't end when you reach a given level. That's the general philosophy and flavour I attribute to the bladesinger: there is no need to hurry your studies to reach a certain stage ASAP, because there will always be more to learn. It's a path you're set on for the rest of your life, never finished with your training. When it's said that it takes decades to scratch the surface of the bladesong, I don't take that to mean the PC must hold off levelling. Instead, I assume the level 15 Bladesinger will be just as skilled (if not moreso) as a human bladesmaster of similar level, but he knows he is still but a novice. To clarify: a lvl 15 human fighter may be the lord of a keep and hailed as a peerless armsmaster. A level 15 bladesinger, though, knows there is decades of study yet before him and then a century or two of working independently on his skills before he can be a master to a next generation of bladesingers. My PC is almost maximum level on our server (which is 30; yes, the power-scale is quite different from PnP), but he still wouldn't refer to himself as a master. In fact, I will not play him long enough for him to become a master, as that would literally take years. It's a long-term goal for him to work towards, to give him purpose.
To prevent bladesingers from becoming extremely high level, I suppose they ought to be treated like elves in general: while they adventure, they advance as fast as other characters. In between such trips, though, they spend years studying the arts, meditation, magic and swordplay in relative safety. Adventures could be some kind of periodic trials in the bladesinger's training. How that works for a long-time PnP campaign, I don't know. |
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Marquant Volker
Learned Scribe
Greece
273 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2009 : 01:08:34
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| Thanks for sharing, one of my drop-by players is a bladesinger, i will introduce to him some of your work (without taking credit for me) Good Stuff |
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ithildur
Acolyte
4 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2009 : 02:08:45
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quote:
Originally posted by IronAngel
The advancement, I imagine, really is problematic in your typical campaign. Personally, though, I don't have such a problem: I play and DM online on a Neverwinter Nights persistent world server, where my character has advanced freely for the last 3.5 years.
The way I look at it is that the bladesinger training begins before you take a single level in the PrC. It begins with learning the basics of magic and swordplay, those fighter/wizard/bard levels or whatever. And more importantly, it doesn't end when you reach a given level. That's the general philosophy and flavour I attribute to the bladesinger: there is no need to hurry your studies to reach a certain stage ASAP, because there will always be more to learn. It's a path you're set on for the rest of your life, never finished with your training. When it's said that it takes decades to scratch the surface of the bladesong, I don't take that to mean the PC must hold off levelling. Instead, I assume the level 15 Bladesinger will be just as skilled (if not moreso) as a human bladesmaster of similar level, but he knows he is still but a novice. To clarify: a lvl 15 human fighter may be the lord of a keep and hailed as a peerless armsmaster. A level 15 bladesinger, though, knows there is decades of study yet before him and then a century or two of working independently on his skills before he can be a master to a next generation of bladesingers. My PC is almost maximum level on our server (which is 30; yes, the power-scale is quite different from PnP), but he still wouldn't refer to himself as a master. In fact, I will not play him long enough for him to become a master, as that would literally take years. It's a long-term goal for him to work towards, to give him purpose.
To prevent bladesingers from becoming extremely high level, I suppose they ought to be treated like elves in general: while they adventure, they advance as fast as other characters. In between such trips, though, they spend years studying the arts, meditation, magic and swordplay in relative safety. Adventures could be some kind of periodic trials in the bladesinger's training. How that works for a long-time PnP campaign, I don't know.
Actually I play on a heavy RP nwn2 server that has a playing style/slow lvl advancement closer to pnp than the typical nwn/nwn2 server, interestingly enough. Currently the bladesinger is not an available prc but I'm hopeful that someday that might change. I had a mid/high lvl bladesinger in pnp (char lvl 8), but the campaign closed shop early. Also have a bladesinger on a nwn1 server for a while that I'm taking a break from.
So it sounds like it's strictly a cosmetic thing the way you're describing it, more in the mind of the player/pc than in actual game terms... I would have to take a rather different view on things as a character possessing 15 lvls is extremely skilled, on par with the legends of FR, especially in a low lvl setting. A lvl 30 would be godlike.
Thanks for the clarification regardless; again, good stuff. |
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IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2009 : 09:38:26
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Slightly off-topic, but I've found you can make an excellent bladesinger build in NWN2 with a Wizard/Eldritch Knight/Duelist combination. It lacks a few features of the bladesinger, but nothing that would be crucial in the computer game. In NWN1, I just do 25/5 Bard/Fighter.
But yeah, I'm more interested in the flavour of the class that pure game terms. Freeform storytelling is my preference anyhow, with little regard for the rules. |
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ithildur
Acolyte
4 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2009 : 13:01:42
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quote:
Originally posted by IronAngel
Slightly off-topic, but I've found you can make an excellent bladesinger build in NWN2 with a Wizard/Eldritch Knight/Duelist combination. It lacks a few features of the bladesinger, but nothing that would be crucial in the computer game. In NWN1, I just do 25/5 Bard/Fighter.
But yeah, I'm more interested in the flavour of the class that pure game terms. Freeform storytelling is my preference anyhow, with little regard for the rules.
That's one way to do it, except I prefer bladesingers who use Corellon's weapon of choice: longswords. I also don't like the lack of feats and BAB falling behind so much with a wizzie/EK; I'd put at least a couple lvls of fighter for the feats and BAB/hp boost, even if you lose a bit of caster lvls.
Freeform storytelling is great, but's not fun to RP a guy as being a deadly swordsman when in actually he's really not much more than a mediocre one that relies constantly on spells to give the impression he's better than he really is. That's why I prefer the FR bladesinger in Races of Faerun to the CW generic version; the lack of bonus feats for the latter makes it an entirely mediocre meleer (as well as spellcaster), and the sample build on wotc's website makes it embarrassingly clear how gimped/watered down it is. |
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Aalnyar
Acolyte
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2010 : 16:48:09
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I also have played a Bladesinger in both PnP and NWN1 environment and have bene lucky enough to get both media to high levels (NWN1 Lev 20, Pnp Lev 18). I also run my characters along the Lines of Iron angel describes in his essay and have a RP blast with it.
I do wish they would combine all ther versions and flesh it out a bit more as far as the small things (famouse styles, members, etc) to kind of get a more historic guide lines as far as a regional Prc ( Cormanthor Bladesingers compared to other elvish realms versions)
My current favrite character I play in a NWN1 persistant world and hes prob my most thought out/RPed character I have created so far.
Belongs to the Korianthil House through Mothers bloodline
crafted his own sword when a sword his father had given him was shattered by a demon
later obtained blessing from Eilistraee and the Seldarine upon the crafted blade to help fight in a great war (that was going on in campaign)
has a lover/mate of a Eilistraeen Bard/moondancer linage
Still deals with the repercussions of being trained by a El'tael who had fallen from grace (has made for some very interesting RPing when they eventually learn who his teacher was)
also run him along what te essay above describes they should do (and have had a blast doing it)
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Aalnyar Korianthil - Bladesinger |
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Penknight
Senior Scribe
USA
538 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2011 : 10:14:14
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| Hello. Sorry to raise an old thread, but I just found out about a feat I had never heard of before that kind of fits with the bladesinger, I think. It's the feat Graceful Edge from Dungeon Magazine 128. I was only able to look it over for a moment before I had to go, so if anyone here can say more about it, I'd appreciate it. I think it adds a +1 shield bonus to AC and a few other abilities, but I'm not completely sure. Has anyone here used this feat in their games, or with a bladesinger character? How did it work out if so? |
Telethian Phoenix
Pathfinder Reference Document |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2011 : 15:05:02
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I own that Dungeon, and have sparingly used the adventure where the Graceful Edge feat is described. I haven't been able to pit the NPC Janni Swashbuckler who uses that feat with his +2 scimitar against the PC's though (the party chose to go bounty hunting instead of becoming arena champions).
The best part of the Graceful Edge feat is that you can choose a one handed slashing weapon and treat it as a light weapon when wielding with one hand free. It means more options for onehanded weapon specialists; especially elven bladesingers who favour dextrous styles and longswords (weapon finesse gives them more accuracy) but prefer to be flexible when they want to utilize the little more power a twohanded longsword strike gives (especially when combined with powerattack). |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2011 : 15:18:00
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I like the idea of using Graceful Edge, Unarmed Strike + Superior Unarmed Strike (ToB), and Two-Weapon Fighting to fight with both hands yet remain within the limits of the Bladesong. Or you could skip the Unarmed Strike feats and just use the spell Laeral's Cutting Hand spell. This treats your off-hand as a +2 enchanted shortsword (dealing +1d6 (+2 magic), crit 19-20x2). OR you can even use Fist of Stone feat with the same similar tactics, though I think because it's a "Slam" attack, you need the Multiattack Monster feat to be able to attack multiple times in a standard round.
Also useful is the Superior Finesse feat (d20 book of feats) which allows you to swap your Strenght for Dexterity modifier on all melee attacks (thus allowing more synergy). But this feat requires Combat Expertise (blech), Dex 13+, Int 13+, and Weapon Finesse feats. |
Edited by - Diffan on 10 Jul 2011 15:24:14 |
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GRYPHON
Senior Scribe
USA
527 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2011 : 15:28:12
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| Well done... |
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Penknight
Senior Scribe
USA
538 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2011 : 22:15:24
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Thank you all for the replies.  If I recall things correctly, a bladesinger needs Combat Expertise to become a bladesinger anyway. At least, the one in Complete Warrior does, which I favor over the version found in Races of Faerun. That would mean that the feat Superior Finesse would be right there waiting for you to take, doesn't it?
Also, a question of Graceful Edge, if I may. Would the feat be balanced enough in requisites for it to be taken in Pathfinder, do you all believe? I know some feats were just a bit much, even in 3.5E that were released. And could someone please post Graceful Edge here in full, if they could? Where I was and saw it, I can't get back to, and I was unable to get that issue, sadly.
Edit: Just dug out the copy of Races of Faerun I have access to. That version of bladesinger has Combat Expertise listed as a prerequisite also, should anyone be wondering that doesn't have access to a copy of it. |
Telethian Phoenix
Pathfinder Reference Document |
Edited by - Penknight on 11 Jul 2011 02:16:02 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2011 : 15:48:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Penknight
Thank you all for the replies. If I recall things correctly, a bladesinger needs Combat Expertise to become a bladesinger anyway. At least, the one in Complete Warrior does, which I favor over the version found in Races of Faerun. That would mean that the feat Superior Finesse would be right there waiting for you to take, doesn't it?
True, I hadn't realized that since I don't use the PrC from the two supplements (rather I use the Duskblade variant of Bladesinger designed by Mr. Costa). But yes, that it makes Superior Finesse a more viable since you need Combat Expertise anyways. My main problem with Combat Expertise is that I never really used it. It's not a particularly good feat and useful only a handful of times in my experience anyways. I always viewed it as a feat-tax, something required not because it's thematic or good, but just to make the PrC less powerful (which the Bladesinger isn't by a good margin).
quote:
Originally posted by Penknight
Also, a question of Graceful Edge, if I may. Would the feat be balanced enough in requisites for it to be taken in Pathfinder, do you all believe? I know some feats were just a bit much, even in 3.5E that were released. And could someone please post Graceful Edge here in full, if they could? Where I was and saw it, I can't get back to, and I was unable to get that issue, sadly.
Hmm, Pathfinder is very weird with it's ideas of powerful, unbalanced, etc.. For example, I thought Power Attack was perfectly fine as described in the v3.5 PHB. It was, for some fighters, a main feature of their build and theme. It actually helped them become good at their job and opened the door to a lot of good feats. Pathfinder, however, decided that it was too powerful (why, no one knows?) so they nerfed the crap out of it so it's just another feat lost in the shuffle.
While I haven't seen the feat Graceful Edge personally (just what I read from Googling the term), I don't think it's all that over-powered. All it really does is allow you a little more synergy with more weapons (or basically a die increase with weapons you wield). But keep in mind that it's supposed to be used with 1 weapon.
Superior Finesse is a v3.0 feat and thus seen by a lot of people as "OMG! SUPER POWERFUL/BROKEN, UBER-MUNCHKIN AT IT'S FINEST!!!" but really, it's not. Your just creating more syngery with one ability score (like the wizard, sorcerer, and Druid) instead of having to have averge to decent Strength, Dexterity, and Intelligence to be a boon to your allies in combat. And keep in mind that your supplanting your Strength for Dexterity on damage rolls NOT adding both like Shadow Blade feat from the Tome of Battle does.
EDIT: Found this floating on the Giant in the Playground forums....
GRACEFUL EDGE [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Weapon finesse, Weapon Focus (Any one handed Slashing Weapon), Base Attack Bonus +1.
Benefit: If you do not wield a shield or weapon in your off-hand you treat your chosen weapon as a light weapon. In addition, if you do not wield a shield or weapon in your off-hand, you also gain a +1 shield bonus to your AC while wielding your chosen weapon. Also,
when you are fighting defensively or using the total defense action, this shield bonus increases to +2
Special: A fighter may select Graceful Edge as one of his fighter bonus feats. A Fighter may take this feat more than once, each time you do, it applies to a new one-handed slashing weapon you have weapon focus in.
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Edited by - Diffan on 11 Jul 2011 16:01:08 |
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Penknight
Senior Scribe
USA
538 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2011 : 19:40:21
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I have a friend that has used the bladesinger variant to great effect as well in my campaign. It's a truly unique way of stylizing the class, and I think it's wonderful.
Yeah, while I adore Pathfinder (which can be observed by clicking my character link below in my sig), some things are kind of confusing to me that they changed or view as being overpowered. One of my players mentioned how the lesser orb of acid, electricity, cold, fire was entirely too powerful, and asked about it on the Pathfinder boards. Apparently, they agreed. I personally see those spells as being incredibly useful for first level spells, and keeping a shine about them regardless of the caster's level. Another spell I was told I only liked because I am what my friend calls a "power gamer" is greater fireburst, which is also located in the 3.5E Spell Compendium. I, however, think it's a great fifth level spell should one be playing a fighter/mage of any sort that enjoys his or her character being in the heat of battle. Another nice spell in my opinion is wraithstrike when it's not used over and over to death for every single situation. Sorry, I realize that was kind of off-topic. I just wanted to say that. 
Thank you for posting the feat here for me, Diffan. And I want to make sure I understand this before I use it in my game. You said, "And keep in mind that your supplanting your Strength for Dexterity on damage rolls NOT adding both like Shadow Blade feat from the Tome of Battle does." Does that men you are using your Dexterity modifier to be your deciding factor in your to hit modifier, and are also using your Dexterity as your bonus to damage rather than your Strength score? |
Telethian Phoenix
Pathfinder Reference Document |
Edited by - Penknight on 11 Jul 2011 19:45:55 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2011 : 04:52:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Penknight
Yeah, while I adore Pathfinder (which can be observed by clicking my character link below in my sig), some things are kind of confusing to me that they changed or view as being overpowered. One of my players mentioned how the lesser orb of acid, electricity, cold, fire was entirely too powerful, and asked about it on the Pathfinder boards. Apparently, they agreed. I personally see those spells as being incredibly useful for first level spells, and keeping a shine about them regardless of the caster's level. Another spell I was told I only liked because I am what my friend calls a "power gamer" is greater fireburst, which is also located in the 3.5E Spell Compendium. I, however, think it's a great fifth level spell should one be playing a fighter/mage of any sort that enjoys his or her character being in the heat of battle. Another nice spell in my opinion is wraithstrike when it's not used over and over to death for every single situation. Sorry, I realize that was kind of off-topic. I just wanted to say that.
None of the spells you described come close to what I interpret as Power Gaming (BTW, why do they say that like it's a bad thing?!). The most useful part about the Orb of... spells were that they weren't subject to Spell Resistance. That's it, the main BIG BOOST of those particular spells. And I for one never really choose them, instead I used Hail of Stone which had no saving throw, no spell resistance, did the same amount of damage as a Magic Missile (yet was max damage die by 5th level) and did so in a 5ft. radius! It did take 1 round to cast though and a Jade component with the cost of 5gp per casting. Still, pretty awesome.
As for the notorious Wraithstrike, it wasn't bad but had the potential to become abusive. A Fighter 2/ Sorcerer 6/ Spellsword 5 could make 3 melee attacks with the Haste spell and Wraithstrike and they'd all be melee-touch attacks. Add on other spells like Bull's Strength, Dolorous Blow (double threat range, automatic confirm crits), and the feat Power Attack with a Scythe (2d4/19-20x4) or Greatsword (2d6/18-20x2) and you've got a monster damage dealer on your hands. Still, that was a 1-trick pony that would work only a number of times or until the DM got tired of it and just anti-magic fielded you, lol.
quote:
Originally posted by Penknight
Thank you for posting the feat here for me, Diffan. And I want to make sure I understand this before I use it in my game. You said, "And keep in mind that your supplanting your Strength for Dexterity on damage rolls NOT adding both like Shadow Blade feat from the Tome of Battle does." Does that men you are using your Dexterity modifier to be your deciding factor in your to hit modifier, and are also using your Dexterity as your bonus to damage rather than your Strength score?
Yes, that's with the usage of the feat Superior Finesse (d20 book of feats, 3.0), not Graceful Edge. I'm fairly certain any DM would allow Graceful Edge but you'd have to talk your way into getting Superior Finesse accepted, mostly because it's a v3.0 feat and many DMs are reluctant to use them even in v3.5 campaigns. Best thing to do is show him that all it does is synergise more with your character. It doesn't make him over powered, it doesn't make him a over-the-top better than a true fighter in the group, and it actually could have drastic effects if that ability score is compromised. |
Edited by - Diffan on 12 Jul 2011 10:52:22 |
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Bladesingers - feedback on my article
