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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Jun 2011 : 01:55:41
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Hello, everyone. I have a question that recently came up in my Realms campaign that's honestly bugging me. If a male drow of one of the ruling families, say fifth house, is insulted or treated unfairly by a drow female of a lower ranking house, does he have the right to defend himself and his house, or is she allowed to mistreat him? I could have sworn I read somewhere that males were allowed to defend their position and not take anything off of those of lower station than they are, except from a high priestess of Lloth. Is that correct, or did my last two DMs house rule that? Anyone that has any information on this, I'll be grateful for. Thank you for your time!
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Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2011 : 06:56:06
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It really depends on the situation, the level of insult to the male, and in which city they're living. Generally speaking, if it was a standard "dressing down" from a female noble, then he'd have to arrange for a comeback that was more private. Like a knife in her back when least expected. What's largely unseen is considered acceptable in matters of revenge.
On the other hand, if it's a non-noble female, he could take his revenge more openly, and would be expected to as a noble 5th house male.
That said, non-noble males (even in a noble house) have to take a lot of crap from females in ranking houses. In a non-ranked house, anything goes. Bear in mind that many males in a noble house aren't nobles themselves. If you're the son of a noble daughter, but not of the matron herself, you're not considered noble. |
"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2011 : 07:43:21
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| The answer is supposed to be a challenge of skill. If he wants to defend his name or pride, he must make a very good assassination with good alibi and nothing suspicious that could relate to him. There are other factors. If it was public or not, for example. If he has enough power to do that. Like that. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2011 : 09:20:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
It really depends on the situation, the level of insult to the male, and in which city they're living. Generally speaking, if it was a standard "dressing down" from a female noble, then he'd have to arrange for a comeback that was more private. Like a knife in her back when least expected. What's largely unseen is considered acceptable in matters of revenge.
There is also the factor of what the noble females of his own house would do, and how they would react to somebody of their house being insulted by a female of a lesser house (and, thus, a lesser rank). Yes, drow males are of a lower status, but if they're still nobles of a House, then they will have their own means of striking back. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2011 : 13:19:15
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Agreed. I think the most common way it would work out is for one of the male's sisters to take umbrage and go after the other female. After all, an attack on the male is an attack on the House itself (if not a very vital part).
That, of course, is assuming that it was done in public. If it's done in private, with no one else watching, the male is either going to have to swallow it (most likely), or else kill the female subtly, as others have suggested. Because if he gets caught, he'll die very slowly. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2011 : 21:13:10
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The Priestess rule in Lolthian society. Any male is subject to what ever treatment a female offers, other females also have superior rights over males.
The only recourse a male has is ask assistance from his House, the Priestesses might take insult or choose to decide to punish the male further.
Females rule, only time a female rules over another female is because they have more rank or power.
The House clearly could take insult for unfair tratment of male of the House, however unfair clearly not the same as RW. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2011 : 22:23:00
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Although we do need to add one rather large caveat: this is only for the cities where Lloth's priestesses hold sway, and the degree to which it is true is directly proportional to the amount of sway they have.
So, this would be the case in Menzo (the drow city we know the most about), and probably also true in Gualidurth and Ched Nasad. Sshamath? Not so much. There the males rule. And even in less-drastic cases, I'd imagine that in smaller groups like raiding parties or especially advance outposts the males would have a bit more leeway. Of course, if they acted up too much, they might not ever be able to go "home." |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2011 : 04:22:30
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As I see it, (and this has come up several times in my games and stories) it does not matter if the male is of a higher-ranked House than the female who insults him, because by their very circumstances of birth, females are considered naturally "superior" over ALL males, regardless of House rank. In other words, just being female would give her the RIGHT to treat him however she wishes. However, this does NOT mean that she could do so with impunity. If he is the son of a powerful Matron, and she is only a low-ranking priestess or a non-noble female, then she would have to be VERY careful of mistreating said male, since his Matron or sisters might very well take exception to having one of their own House members abused without their permission. So he'd have to take his lumps, and find some way to get back at her later without getting caught by either his own family, (for assaulting a female, which in itself is forbidden) or anyone else who might retaliate or point fingers.
That said, this would obviously only apply in Lolth-dominated cities. Elsewhere, he might have a better chance at getting revenge either openly or in secret, and less risk involved in doing so. But it's canon that ALL females are considered above even the highest-ranked males, simply because females are naturally favored by Lolth. Gender discrimination at its most extreme! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
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http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2011 : 05:27:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
But it's canon that ALL females are considered above even the highest-ranked males, simply because females are naturally favored by Lolth. Gender discrimination at its most extreme!
Drow are pragmatic about it, though. For example, not even the most powerful matron mothers of Menzoberranzan are likely to risk offending somebody like, say, Gromph Baenre. Even his sister Triel is very careful about how she acts towards him, and that was after she became the head of House Baenre. It's been pointed out in Realmslore, too - Gromph enjoys freedoms that are nigh-unheard of owing to his wizardly prowess, including the ability to select drow females for his amusement, rather than the other way around.
And there was also that lichdrow who was the real ruler of House Agrach-Dyrr, regardless of the face it presented to the outside world.
Granted, a warrior will have comparatively less influence and power than an extremely powerful wizard would (though Pharaun Mizzrym was able to escape his House by fleeing to Sorcere, a place in Menzoberranzan that is more male-dominated than most), but even then, the very best warriors are often tolerated and treated with something approaching respect, just because of how deadly and skilled they are. Zaknafein is an example, what with how long he lasted in drow society.
Ultimately, females are supposed to be on top in drow culture. But as with almost everything drow-related, I would say that this is infused with a healthy amount of pragmatism. You might think yourself "on top" and "above" a male, but when that male is sitting at or near the top of his own profession (such as Gromph), then you're probably not going to push the issue unless you are extremely confident. Or extremely stupid. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2011 : 05:31:53
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I don't know, Alystra, but I guess some males of higher rank DO have the right to defend themselves, or do whatever they like to lesser females. For instance, Gromph (I imagine) would bow to no one but the Baenre sisters and the Matron Mothers of the higher houses. In Insurrection, he made it quite plain to Triel's guards (who I assume were priestesses without noble blood) that he would "leave them as two piles of smoking ash on her doorstep" (his exact words) if they wouldn't let him see his sister. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 19 Jun 2011 05:33:59 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2011 : 05:34:11
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| I dunno, I think House ranking does factor into it... Otherwise, a priestess of the weakest House in the city could, by virtue of being a priestess, commandeer the Weapons Master and a squad of his troops from the most highly ranked House in the city, simply by being in a position to order him around when no one from his own House was around to countermand the order. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2011 : 06:39:35
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quote:
But it's canon that ALL females are considered above even the highest-ranked males, simply because females are naturally favored by Lolth. Gender discrimination at its most extreme!
Negative, not true. It's definitely the case that females are favored above males, but there are many cases where males are considered superior to certain females.
Female slaves, because of an affront to Lolth or a powerful matron, are pretty much the bottom rung of drow society (except, perhaps, for driders).
Female commoners of unranked houses also hold no special power in drow society over males, and certainly no power over noble males. At the level of common drow, there's still sexism but no "power" as the female priests have. It's just plain ridiculous to think that some random commoner female would even dare to insult a noble male, because that would be an instant death warrant for her.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2011 : 11:05:17
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I appreciate all the feedback, my friends, and really enjoy all the views expressed here. Wooly, your point is one that was made in times past with us as well. Hence (I guess) the DMs house ruling as they did that if you were a male noble of a higher House, you could take care and defend yourself accordingly, so long as you didn't mouth off to a high priestess.
In my case, it's a male noble (my PC) of the Fifth House of Menzoberranzan (which is DM created and my character is a part of since no records past the Menzoberranzan boxed set exist as far as I know), and a low level priestess of the Eighth House that hasn't even been subject of the Test yet. She despises him, lusts after him, and he's rejected her. She even insulted him and his House, so he snapped her back into place with words and threats. As I said, in the rules I had played by in times past, as long as she's no high priestess, there's no problem. That's why I was asking.  |
Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart |
Edited by - Joran Nobleheart on 19 Jun 2011 11:06:27 |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2011 : 11:36:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Joran Nobleheart
no records past the Menzoberranzan boxed set exist as far as I know)
The War of the Spider Queen and Drizzt novels are full of information on Drow houses, as are some of the Liriel Baenre books (e.g. the official 5th house is Xorlarrin, from what I remember).
Anyway, if it's just a low-level priestess and your PC is a high-ranking noble, then I doubt that the female would have much to stand on. You'd only be answering to the females of your own House (or higher-ranked Houses). Why would they tolerate a potential threat to their power, which this priestess may well be?
Granted, you could also start a feud between houses over this. Such is the intricate spiderweb of intrigue that permeates a drow city. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2011 : 14:22:48
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House Xorlarrin appears to be the Fourth House now, which is good news to me. Just did a search on them, and it ends up they've been boosted a position. Either way, the campaign is great fun for all involved, and the Underdark is a place I never was able to fully explore before as a DM myself or even as a player.
I kind of share your position about a low level priestess having much say, but I like to make sure of things before I begin. And as my character knows, the females of his House are proud, manipulative beings and entrenched deeply in intrigue and skullduggery. In other words, classic drow females. 
As for the feud, I never considered that aspect of it all. My thanks, Eldacar! I'll ponder it and discuss it and see where it leads us!  Also, other views are welcomed by all still. By the way, in Pathfinder or 3.5E, when would a male noble of his House or even a female, be given the attire of their rank? Drow boots, piwafwi, drow chainmail, etc? I'm operating off of "they'll get it when they can afford it according to the Wealth By Level chart," but is there a basic level they attain parts of the attire? |
Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart |
Edited by - Joran Nobleheart on 20 Jun 2011 00:09:16 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2011 : 16:18:16
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Hmm, in Lolthian society it is the law, with the law that if you break it without being caught you further Lolth's goals (or at least one interpretation of how that society was described.) A low level cleric attacking a high level male would likely end up dead. As discussed before, a male poorly treated by one not of house, clearly could ask the House for retribution. Depending of value to house the cleric claerly could have action taken against. Much of Drow society works on what is done hidden, House Wars are not common, but hurting a house bit by bit clearly a tactic used. Only when a House is sure it can crush another House would it publicly attack, the penalty for failure requires all the Houses to take out the failing House. It can be years or decades of assassinations, politixcal posturing and even purchase of assets before a major house would take on another with great assurance they would win, failure is not an option.
As to when a Drow is given Drow mail, etc. again it depends, such items clearly available to all that can afford, however Nobles clearly can be gifted sooner in order to keep then living.
All in all, in my view, they get it when the House decides to give it to them. Character level should not directly apply. The only female heir of a House might be given every item of protection even before attending a class for the good of the House. Male heirs of course less important, however clearly could receive items of protection beyond their level wealth. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2011 : 16:20:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Joran Nobleheart
As for the feud, I never considered that aspect of it all. My thanks, Eldacar! I'll ponder it and discuss it and see where it leads us! Also, other views are welcomed by all still. By the way, in Pathfinder or 3.5E, when would a male noble of his House or even a female, be given the attire of their rank? Drow boots, piwafwi, drow chainmail, etc? I'm operating off of "they'll get it when they can afford it according to the Wealth By Level chart," but is there a basic level they attain parts of the attire?
I would assume it would depend on the House, but the higher in rank a House is, the earlier I'd expect them to give out this kind of equipment. If I was DM'ing a drow noble, I'd prolly give him those things before he could afford them according to that chart, but the flipside would be that he'd not get anything else nifty for a while. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2011 : 04:36:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Negative, not true. It's definitely the case that females are favored above males, but there are many cases where males are considered superior to certain females.
-Case in point, Gromph having Liriel's mother killed, and he taking possession of the girl, as opposed to others in that family. Yes, the woman was a commoner, but she was a woman (duh). Gromph, by way of his arcane might and political position, was superior to her. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2011 : 00:57:50
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| On the other hand, even Gromph (probably the most powerful/highest ranked male in Menzo) has some pretty severe limits. He could only take that woman as his mistress because she was both of a very minor house and had practically no clerical power, and was therefore considered expendable/not worth getting excited over. And the only reason he got away with her murder (which everyone else was aware had happened) was because he did it properly: out of sight. If he'd slain her in the street, with witnesses, not even his power could have prevented female wrath and retaliation (though he could have fled). |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2011 : 01:10:59
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Which was precisely my point earlier. He could only get away with it because no one KNEW about it. If any other females (clerics especially) had been present, he'd have been drider food. He is not "superior" to any female, he is simply in a position to have certain rules overlooked for his benefit- so long as no one is aware of it. No doubt if he'd killed her in front of Triel, she would have ordered his execution. It's all about power, position, and opportunity- and most males simply don't have the first two.
As for a male warrior being commanded by a low-ranking priestes of another House in battle, this has happened. In Insurrection, during the slave uprising, several squads of warriors were taken over by low-ranked priestesses, simply because their previous commanders had fallen- sometimes even to those same priestesses! And likewise, a few males saw the opportunity to kill of hated sisters and female cousins or what-not, during the confusion of the battle, and ONLY got away with it because no one noticed. So yes, a male could very well be commanded by a female from another House, under certain circumstances. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
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http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2011 : 01:38:39
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Such BS... no one in drow socity, male or female, can commit open murder with public witnesses and get away with it. To murder someone that way would just be incredibly dumb, and drow aren't typically dumb. So that example is something that would never happen.
Only a high priestess drow female can openly commit murder with public witnesses, and then only get away with it if she remains in Lolth's favor (because it's seen as Lolth's will). Open murder is just not tolerated. That said, murders committed in secrecy, or at least out of sight and leaving no evidence, aren't typically punished at all unless it's a direct attack on a house with power. Male or female, doesn't really matter if you can carry out revenge without leaving evidence.
Gromph is superior to most females in the city, excepting those who are high priestesses in favor of Lolth. Even then, those priestesses would think twice about crossing him. His position and his house ranking both give him political power beyond being an archmage of great power, making him way more powerful than any commoner female. And no, even if Triel watched Gromph murder her, she would never have ordered his death. He's simply too powerful a tool for her house. Triel might have had a fit, yelled and cranked about it, but Gromph is simply too useful for her and helps her hold on to her own power. Chip away at a house's power base and it runs the risk of losing favor with Lolth.
No offense, but sometimes people get carried away with "all female drow are all powerful!" when it's simply not the case. Female high priestesses are powerful, yes. Matron mothers of a ranked house are powerful, yes. But it's just generalized sexism, not power, once you get away from the noble houses and their machinations. And in drow society, when you don't have power (either Lolth-favor or house rank), you watch your P's and Q's around anyone male or female who might be physically or magically stronger than you. Commoner females simply don't have the luxury of abusing males like their noble counterparts do.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 21 Jun 2011 01:41:21 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2011 : 01:44:26
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| Drow has laws, indeed no public killing would be permitted unless approved by the top eight houses without taking out the offender. Drow law exists and must be followed of risk death (or worst), however unwritten law is if you can break the law in order to gain power, Lolth approves, as long as you do not get caught.. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2011 : 02:01:49
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| Well, as far as I'm concerned, I agree with Hoondatha and Alystra. If you're male, you watch yourself around ANY females. Of course, that isn't true in the cities where Lloth doesn't hold as much sway. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 21 Jun 2011 02:55:49 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2011 : 02:46:09
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Thing is, if you go with a simplistic interpretation of the drow's male-female dynamic, that's all you get. It's far more important to think about how each individual reacts to the power structures in their society. If you're -anyone- you have to watch yourself around those in power. Being a female drow doesn't give one power just simply because they have that gender, it gives you "cred" with Lolth. Such "cred" can be lost in an instant if you (even as a female) insult the wrong male or fail to impress the right female above you, and it doesn't mean much if you don't also have actual power. Only the elite, powerful females have the luxury of abusing males as we've seen in the novels, or even ordering males around.
Drow power comes from:
* Lolth-favor, specifically as a high priestess
* Noble House rank, and your place in that house
* Prowess with sword or spells
* Intelligent manipulation of money or markets
* Secret sources: being a priest/ess of someone other than Lolth, or having secret magic items
If you're not in a noble house, one of the ruling matrons' houses, or if you're not a high priestess of Lolth, then it really doesn't matter much if you're male or female. As a commoner, you're too busy trying to impress and get the favor of one of those noble houses. The sexism is still there among commoners, because of Lolth's general favoritism of females, but gender is really only a power issue among the nobility. Sexism and "gender power" are related, but they're very different things.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 21 Jun 2011 02:49:05 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2011 : 04:16:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Such BS... no one in drow socity, male or female, can commit open murder with public witnesses and get away with it. To murder someone that way would just be incredibly dumb, and drow aren't typically dumb. So that example is something that would never happen.
Only a high priestess drow female can openly commit murder with public witnesses, and then only get away with it if she remains in Lolth's favor (because it's seen as Lolth's will). Open murder is just not tolerated. That said, murders committed in secrecy, or at least out of sight and leaving no evidence, aren't typically punished at all unless it's a direct attack on a house with power. Male or female, doesn't really matter if you can carry out revenge without leaving evidence.
Gromph is superior to most females in the city, excepting those who are high priestesses in favor of Lolth. Even then, those priestesses would think twice about crossing him. His position and his house ranking both give him political power beyond being an archmage of great power, making him way more powerful than any commoner female. And no, even if Triel watched Gromph murder her, she would never have ordered his death. He's simply too powerful a tool for her house. Triel might have had a fit, yelled and cranked about it, but Gromph is simply too useful for her and helps her hold on to her own power. Chip away at a house's power base and it runs the risk of losing favor with Lolth.
No offense, but sometimes people get carried away with "all female drow are all powerful!" when it's simply not the case. Female high priestesses are powerful, yes. Matron mothers of a ranked house are powerful, yes. But it's just generalized sexism, not power, once you get away from the noble houses and their machinations. And in drow society, when you don't have power (either Lolth-favor or house rank), you watch your P's and Q's around anyone male or female who might be physically or magically stronger than you. Commoner females simply don't have the luxury of abusing males like their noble counterparts do.
And therein lies the problem. Gromph is a gray area- he has a great deal of personal power, a high position, and is a member of the First House. HOWEVER!If he were to kill a priestess or noble female in front of Triel, would she punish him? You BETCHA. She would HAVE to- or else risk loosing Lolth's favor for NOT doing so. She could not afford to let such an offense pass. Think of it this way- House Baenre can afford to loose its Archmage, but it can NOT afford to loose Lolth's favor. Which is precisely what would happen if Triel or an other high priestess of the house did not harshly deal with ANY male of the house that acted openly against a female- UNLESS it was on the authority of another female! (This would normally only be possible if the one he killed had fallen out of favor, and/or it was part of an attack on a rival House, again under the orders of a female superior.) It really has nothing to do with how much power or position or rank a male has- it's all about keeping Lolth's favor by punishing the ones who get out of line. Even Gromph would be drider-bait under such circumstances, because his House could replace him, but would find it much harder to regain Lolth's favor if they lost if for not executing him!
See, the thing that no one has mentioned is that this is not just "drow law" that we are dealing with- it is LOLTH'S law. And her dogma includes superiority and supremacy of females over males. Males of high station like Gromph might be able to get away with more against commoner females or very low-ranked nobles, but only IF they act in secret. Otherwise, they are out of luck. Even Gromph would not be immune to the ire of his sisters if he were o openly attack even a low-ranked noble female. Gneder discrimination aside, Lolth requires them to punish males who commit offenses against her, her clergy, or noble females in general, because otherwise other males might begin to loose their fear of her and her clergy and rebel. This is why Zanafein was sacrificed by Malice, in SPITE of the fact that he was House Do'Urden's most valuable asset! Malice saw him as expendable, and Drizzt as well, simply because they were males who had committed offenses against Lolth. And to attack a female noble or priestess, regardless of rank, is one of the worst sins among Lolth-worshiping drow.
Commoner females might not have as much luxury of treating males like dirt, but this does not necessarily mean that they are powerless against higher-ranking males. In Menzoberranzan at least, it is FORBIDDEN for any male to harm a female. (This is directly stated in Daughter of the Drow) There is even a scene where Liriel shows absolute shock and horror at the suggestion of being raped by one of the Vaerhaunites on the surface, simply because no male in Menzoberranzan would dare do such a thing. That in itself is telling. She repeatedly shows dismay at Fyodor's impertinance toward her, which she sees as an affront to her as a Baenre noble, and her treatment at the hands of the Vaerhaunites is shown to be considered blasphemous. So it would hardly matter what an individual male's rank is- if he openly struck out against a female, he would be made an example of- in accordance to Lolth's will! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2011 : 04:35:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Which was precisely my point earlier. He could only get away with it because no one KNEW about it. If any other females (clerics especially) had been present, he'd have been drider food.
I would disagree. It's pretty commonly known in Menzoberranzan that Gromph enjoys a number of advantages owing to his political and personal power. That includes the knowledge that he can pick and choose his "playmates" without fear of reprisal (he keeps it under control, as you would expect, but he doesn't "walk small and shuffle his feet" when there's a female around). Yes, there are limits to his status. However, if any other females were around at the time of his concubine's death I don't think it would have changed much. Gromph is just too powerful, both personally and politically, to threaten in that way.
Even his sister Triel (who is, after all, in Lolth's full favour and the Matron Mother of the first House) isn't willing to test herself against him. She knows he has more personal power than she does, and she can't dispense of him for political reasons, either. He's the Archmage of Menzoberranzan and head of Sorcere, the most powerful wizard in the city (barring maybe a handful of others), and her brother (family might not mean much to the drow, but Gromph is a noble of House Baenre, and that makes him a powerful ally). It's not the sort of thing you take lightly.
Point is, lumping the entirety of Menzoberranyr society into "females always on top all the time no exceptions" is something that I don't think is borne out. It's more complex than that.
I really, really doubt that Lolth would object if Gromph disintegrated a particularly insolent priestess for pushing too far, either. Lolth won't suffer fools. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2011 : 05:17:24
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There is a big difference between having a few "perks", and being exempt from accepted "law", however. While he may be able to pick and choose his own playmates, this does not mean he has open license to do as he pleases in regard to mistreating females in general. He still defers to his sisters, still rankles at being subject to their whims and commands, and is still forced to do their bidding, or risk bringing down the wrath of not JUST Triel as Matron, but every single priestess in his House upon himself! (Note that Liriel's mother was both of a minor house, and had no clerical talent, and was considered of little use- hence why no one really cared that she went "missing". His involvement was never actually discovered.)
Further, it is not that Triel is unwilling to test herself against him, but more that she lacks personal confidence in her own decisions, and values his advice and aid too much to throw away a useful resource. You're right that she would not take it lightly- but neither would she tolerate him committing a sacrilege against Lolth and causing the House to loose her favor. Even as powerful as he is, Triel would have her limits to what she would tolerate from him if he stepped over the line. And while Gromph IS powerful, but he is also far from stupid. He knows exactly what he can and cannot get away with, and stops short of rousing the ire of his sisters against himself. As I said, House Baenre can replace him, if need be- after all, there are plenty of other males who would be more than happy to take his place! In fact, there have been several other males (of more than one House) in the past who attempted to take his role as Archmage, and I'd wager that Baenre itself has several possible replacements waiting in the wings- with as many sons and daughters as Yvonne had, it's almost a certainty. Remember, no matter how valuable an individual is to his or her House, there is ALWAYS someone else willing (and eager) to take their place.
And Lolth would not object to him doing what you suggest ONLY if he could do it without anyone witnessing it! (Because otherwise, her law of males being subject to female authority would kick in.) Social dynamics aside, her law will always trump matters of rank, personal power, or position. If it didn't, males would quickly start taking over. Only fear of the priestesses keeps them in check as it is. The whole point is that it's Lolth herself who made the "laws", and therefore her will holds sway. If we were talking about Sshamath, it might be a different matter altogether, and the male who killed a priestess in that city would probably be applauded.
But in Menzo, the women rule absolutely. It's a very different dynamic, and they can't afford to let even one male slide, no matter how much power he has, or they start to loose control. It's a matter of keeping the status-quo. Gromph knows this, and so would Triel. He might secretly slay a female or two of low rank, but he would never dare go against a higher-ranked one- for the simple reason that Lolth herself would probably punish him, even if no one else did. She DOES pay attention, after all- Drizzt being a case in point. She knew he had spared the elven child, even when no one else did! She then informed Malice that one of her family had transgressed. How much more would she do to a male who slew one of her favored priestesses without the command of another priestess? (Zanafein killed plenty of them, but that was at Malice's command, and during a House war. And the ones he slew had lost her favor, to boot.) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2011 : 05:49:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
There is a big difference between having a few "perks", and being exempt from accepted "law", however. While he may be able to pick and choose his own playmates, this does not mean he has open license to do as he pleases in regard to mistreating females in general.
Yes, as I pointed out, Gromph keeps it under control. He doesn't go out of his way to shout it to the city that he kills females, but that doesn't mean he's a downtrodden slug, either. Just like that "alleged" (as far as the priestesses are concerned) bar/brothel/whatever in Menzoberranzan where males can go to maltreat drow women. Do some priestesses know it exists? I don't doubt it. Do they go out of their way to shut it down? Not really, no. They are above all pragmatic about things, and so is Gromph.
Lolth's laws only apply for as long as you have the power to back them up. If Gromph did something that would bring down all the matron mothers in the city on his head, then Lolth's law would apply, yes. But if a (hypothetical) lesser priestess tried to push him too far? Her law only goes so far. The priestess is being a fool in that case, so Lolth won't bother to protect her. She picked a fight she shouldn't have, and she should suffer the consequences. The priestess' authority doesn't extend to Gromph - or, rather, while it might in theory, there is a large difference between theory and reality. And Lolth doesn't suffer fools.
This also goes for other powerful individuals regardless of gender. Jarlaxle and Bregan D'Aerthe, for example. Entreri killed a high priestess of I think the eleventh or twelfth House, and Jarlaxle had it covered up. No retribution came down upon either Jarlaxle, Entreri, or Bregan D'Aerthe, although House Horlbar did attempt to investigate. Either Jarlaxle and Entreri are extremely high in Lolth's favour, or Lolth saw no reason to go after them. Jerlys Horlbar picked a fight that she shouldn't have, and she died for it. And she was a Matron Mother.
quote:
Further, it is not that Triel is unwilling to test herself against him, but more that she lacks personal confidence in her own decisions, and values his advice and aid too much to throw away a useful resource.
No, in one of the books, Triel is openly cautious of testing her personal skill against that of her brother. Nor will she make such an attempt, because Gromph isn't trying to take over her position. You don't go stepping on a lion's tail just for the sake of stepping on it unless you're prepared for what will inevitably happen next.
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As I said, House Baenre can replace him, if need be- after all, there are plenty of other males who would be more than happy to take his place!
True. However, what makes Gromph somewhat unique among them is that he is significantly more powerful. Yes, he could be replaced as Archmage, but the Archmage is not necessarily of House Baenre. It is Gromph's personal skill as much as his position in House Baenre that grants him the post.
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In fact, there have been several other males (of more than one House) in the past who attempted to take his role as Archmage,
Yes, this is a drow city. Assassinations and duels are going to happen. And despite those attempts, Gromph is still the one left standing at the end of the day.
quote:
Gromph knows this, and so would Triel. He might secretly slay a female or two of low rank, but he would never dare go against a higher-ranked one- for the simple reason that Lolth herself would probably punish him, even if no one else did.
If the hypothetical female of high rank tried charging into his personal abode? I don't doubt that he would expel her at the very least. Forcibly. If he didn't turn her to ash.
quote:
She DOES pay attention, after all- Drizzt being a case in point. She knew he had spared the elven child, even when no one else did! She then informed Malice that one of her family had transgressed. How much more would she do to a male who slew one of her favored priestesses without the command of another priestess? (Zanafein killed plenty of them, but that was at Malice's command, and during a House war. And the ones he slew had lost her favor, to boot.)
And then you have examples like Alton DeVir and Masoj jumping around stomping on spiders. Spiders that a yochlol called up, at that. So much for Lolth's law there. Or Jalynfein's hatred of Lolth. Jarlaxle and Bregan D'Aerthe in general. Drizzt's consistent defiance of her (even with priestesses high in Lolth's favour, Drizzt didn't go down). The aforementioned brothel for males.
Her law is not uniform in nature. There are many, many twists and turns in it, and what it comes down to is 1) what you can get away with, 2) survival of the fittest and 3) pragmatism.
Triel won't pick a fight with Gromph, because she might not get away with it, she doesn't want to die, and she's pragmatic about the issue (he isn't trying to kill her, after all, so better a fight avoided).
Gromph won't pick a fight with the overarching Menzoberranyr social order, because he isn't strong enough to get away with it, he doesn't want to die, and he's pragmatic about the issue (he has plenty of perks as it is, and is a lot higher in the social order than most, so why fight it for the sake of fighting it, even if it is bothersome at times?). |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2011 : 06:40:31
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All well and good, but your points all lead to the same place- WHAT they can get away with without anyone finding out. In Drizzt's case, his "crimes" led to the downfall of his entire House, along with Zaknafein's sacrifice. He did manage to cut of Briza's fingers, and later killed Vierna, but he was never a follower of Lolth to begin with, and bucked her rules at every turn- a far cry from drow males who at least pay her lip service.
Alton and Masoj are not especially good examples, for the simple reason that neither was especially bright. Obviously, as mages they were (ahem, in theory) clever and intelligent, but not especially wise to stomp on a swarm of summoned spiders- and the results of that incident bear that out. Jarlaxle's band is a rather unusual case- they are males who have formed their own power base. Also, the males of Breagan D'aerth are all somewhat rebellious in their own right, but they still obey the will of the Matrons- when they're actually IN Menzoberranzan. I find it interesting that most of their operations take place well outside the city- and by extension away from the prying eyes of the females! Says a lot about them, no? And Entreri is not even a drow, and had no compunctions about killing a priestess. Jarlaxle covered that up more to keep his own band out of trouble than anything. (The rule of guilt by association comes into play here, I believe.)
You're right about one thing- neither Gromph nor Triel would pick a fight with the other. One on one, they would both be fairly evenly matched. The thing is that he needs her on the throne as much as she needs him beside her. They are, as you said, pragmatic, but not for the reason you seem to think. The reason they don't fight each other is because they are much more powerful together, and the House itself is stronger with them working together than if they were to start squabbling. They may dislike and distrust each other, and certainly Gromph chomps at the bit at having to obey her, but he knows that his place is only as secure as that of his House- and I doubt he would do anything to imperil that, regardless of his own personal inclinations. As I read that particular passage, she was cautious not so much of his personal power, but of alienating her best ally in the House itself, since she could hardly trust her sisters, who would almost all try to take over her position. He CAN'T, so is a safer bet to ally with- hence she would not want to push him into turning on her in favor of Quenthel or someone else. This seemed to be the real reason for her caution regarding him, rather than a lack of ability to take him down on her part- after all, she has a goddess to call on to aid her if he really gets out of line!
For that matter, he does not seem to make a habit of killing females, by any means. Liriel's mother was simply a means to an end in that case- taking the girl into his own House and getting rid of the "baggage", as it were. In other words, an isolated incident. And one done in secrecy, as I've already pointed out. Would he have done it with anyone else around? Certainly not. If he made a habit of killing his playmates, pretty soon Matronly brows would start to rise and take notice, which is the last thing he would want. Especially since most high priestesses have rather unpleasant ways of learning the truth that even he could not counter. I doubt he has any desire to end up on an alter or as a drider- and if he was lucky, the priestesses MIGHT let him take his pick of the two fates. And as you said, he has plenty of perks already, so he really has no reason to shake things up.
As for a priestess invading his own home, I would imagine he would not shoot first and ask questions later, since it would probably get him into hot water. Any female that has the power to get into his home in the first place is no one to mess with, and is probably there for very good reason. Somehow, your idea of one just charging in does not strike me as all that realistic, unless another House was attacking Baenre- and then all bets are off. That would just be self-defense in any case, as long as he could prove it. But then it would just be his word, and a male's word doesn't seem to count for much among drow.
Also, I did not mean to imply at all that only a Baenre could be Archmage- just that he is certainly not the only one qualified for the position. Not only are there plenty of other Masters in Sorcere who would love to take the position, but probably a few even within his own House! He's certainly among the most powerful, but not the only one who can do the job. And he knows it. You mentioned that Lolth's laws only apply if one has the power to back it up. Well, one only has to look at what happens to the males who DO step out of line to see that they do indeed have the power. The story about Zaknafein going after the sacred dagger showed just how ruthless the clergy is in going after heretics and such- there was an entire LINE of males being turned into driders in that tale, with him being about to join their ranks. Sounds to me like they've pretty much got it under wraps. And he wasn't even picking fights, just speaking out unwisely. Imagine what they would do to a male who commits the "ultimate" sin of slaying a priestess! Not something even Gromph would care to dwell on, one would imagine. And no matter how powerful he might be, he could still be caught and punished.
The brothel you mentioned is one of Menzo's dirty little secrets, and from what I've read, it seems like the males prefer to keep it that way. Only a select few even seem to know of it, and those are some of the more violently inclined, apparently. The females there appear to be slaves, so I'm not even sure that counts for anything. Halisstra had Danifae as a slave, too- and she was a female! (Obviously, Danifae not having Lolth's favor had a lot to do with her condition- and that is likely the case with the ones in said brothel.) If any of the priestesses know of it, they probably are aware that the females within are all slaves, so they don't concern themselves with their fates- as far as they are concerned, if they lost Lolth's favor, they deserve whatever they get. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2011 : 07:13:26
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I'm finding all of this incredibly interesting! I'd like to ask another question, if I may? How would a drow be treated in Waterdeep itself? I know about Skullport, but would a drow be welcomed there? Where would a drow be likely to find rooms at? I know a place they'd likely drink at, according to VGtW, which is The Crawling Spider. Also, I'm pretty sure they'd be less than welcome at The Elfstone Tavern. But could a drow find lodging at say, The Inn of the Dripping Dagger, or any of the other fine inns of the city? Would any of the guards, watch or watch-wizards follow him or her around? Would the drow also be able to purchase supplies or gear anywhere, turned away, or be subject to suddenly increased prices? I've been told that Waterdeep is more open than most cities when it comes to situations like that, but I also know I haven't read as much as a few of you here have. Your help on this would be greatly appreciated.
And while I'm on it, would drow be allowed in Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter, or would they be turned away at the gates? |
Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2011 : 07:24:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
He did manage to cut of Briza's fingers, and later killed Vierna, but he was never a follower of Lolth to begin with, and bucked her rules at every turn- a far cry from drow males who at least pay her lip service.
Drizzt was, at first, a follower of Lolth. Going by FR convention, I would have said he was technically a follower of Lolth for most of his early life (albeit not a very good one at all), then dipped into being one of the Faithless for a while, and then found his way to Mielikki.
And Lolth has always taken a rather special degree of interest in Drizzt. There's a short story out there about when Drizzt was a child, and he declared that "he wasn't afraid of spiders". Later, during a ceremony where Lolth would appear to one House in the city, Lolth chose to appear to Drizzt, holding a short conversation with him.
From that, I would probably argue that rather than Lolth always micromanaging everything that goes on, she simply took a greater-than-usual interest in Drizzt (and then there's that remark from I think Tos'un Armgo about how Lolth might even favour Drizzt as a bringer of chaos to the drow... though I personally doubt it). This is not something that is necessarily going to happen for every single House in the city.
quote:
Obviously, as mages they were (ahem, in theory) clever and intelligent, but not especially wise to stomp on a swarm of summoned spiders- and the results of that incident bear that out.
I don't recall any negative consequences for them. Eventually Ginafae did come, but she came to see Gelroos Hun'nett, not a mage who had broken the law.
quote:
Also, the males of Breagan D'aerth are all somewhat rebellious in their own right, but they still obey the will of the Matrons- when they're actually IN Menzoberranzan.
Up to a point. Jarlaxle has no issues with backtalk and negotiating - he'll obey the one he's hired by because he's been hired, but he won't do what they say just for the sake of doing what they say. He pulls Triel (when she was Mistress of Arach-Tinilith) up more than once.
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Jarlaxle covered that up more to keep his own band out of trouble than anything. (The rule of guilt by association comes into play here, I believe.)
Or Lolth holds Jarlaxle high in her favour as an unbalancing factor. Even above a Matron Mother. It creates chaos, unrest, uncertainty. Lolth loves that, especially in a city that has been rather placid for some time now.
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and certainly Gromph chomps at the bit at having to obey her, but he knows that his place is only as secure as that of his House- and I doubt he would do anything to imperil that, regardless of his own personal inclinations.
You mean like when he started throwing summoned devils in mockery of Lolth's domains/portfolios at Quenthel as soon as he had an opening? No, Gromph is quite willing to settle a debt even at the cost of some of Baenre's prestige (Quenthel being high in Lolth's favour and Mistress of Arach-Tinilith), and I don't even recall seeing much advantage in it for him, besides the fact that Quenthel was difficult to work with and irritating. He might dislike Triel, but he will go out of his way to take a shot at Quenthel.
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As I read that particular passage, she was cautious not so much of his personal power, but of alienating her best ally in the House itself, since she could hardly trust her sisters, who would almost all try to take over her position.
Gromph and Triel don't normally ally themselves with each other, from what I recall. They hate each other, even. They did band together during the Time of Troubles, when Quenthel was thinking of going after Triel/Matron Baenre, but that was a special case for obvious reasons.
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For that matter, he does not seem to make a habit of killing females, by any means.
Because he's pragmatic about it. I mentioned that earlier, I believe.
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Would he have done it with anyone else around? Certainly not.
Sure he would. He'd just kill both of them (presuming, of course, that he deemed the potential benefit of Liriel to be worth the effort - remember, pragmatism and risk vs reward). But again, this doesn't mean he's going to make a habit of doing that. He keeps himself under control.
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I doubt he has any desire to end up on an alter or as a drider- and if he was lucky, the priestesses MIGHT let him take his pick of the two fates.
Or, you know, he could just leave and go to somewhere like Sshamath if he really wanted to.
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Somehow, your idea of one just charging in does not strike me as all that realistic,
Exactly.
That is exactly it.
A priestess wouldn't just charge into his home uninvited. She would be asking for a fight. That's the whole point - it would be a stupid idea for one to try it (except in extenuating circumstances, like what you mentioned about Baenre itself being under attack), and drow are pragmatic.
His status and the perks he has are basically like an open secret, of sorts.
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Also, I did not mean to imply at all that only a Baenre could be Archmage- just that he is certainly not the only one qualified for the position.
The Archmage is, as I recall, supposed to be the most powerful wizard in the city. Now, this obviously might not always be the case, as lesser wizards could have held title to it in the past (as I recall, Gromph's predecessor is an alive-and-kicking archmage with a good chunk more power than Gromph himself has). But no, he isn't the only one who would potentially be qualified for the job. He's the one who holds it, however, and he has successfully defended his position from all-comers for going on a few centuries now.
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Well, one only has to look at what happens to the males who DO step out of line to see that they do indeed have the power.
Against some. There is a very big difference between commoners, lesser nobles, and one of the top five or ten most powerful individuals in the city, male or not. Taking Gromph in would require many more resources than taking in even Zaknafein would (if Zak was actively resisting). As long as he keeps himself under control and doesn't go wild, the Matron Mothers, high priestesses and so on won't interfere with him. He's not upsetting the social order, after all. It's very different than the "idiot drunk down in tavern #34325" mouthing off about a female.
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Imagine what they would do to a male who commits the "ultimate" sin of slaying a priestess! Not something even Gromph would care to dwell on, one would imagine.
And yet, he was quite willing to kill two of them on the spot. Silence of Lolth or no Silence, he knows what he's got and he is not afraid to use it. And the priestesses know it too. They're not going to push the issue. And Gromph knows that they know that he knows, at that. Which they are also aware of, leading to the balancing act that is status in Menzoberranyr society.
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as far as they are concerned, if they lost Lolth's favor, they deserve whatever they get.
And we come back to the favour again. Remember:
Lolth does not suffer fools.
You might be in her favour, but if you do something monumentally stupid - like, say, pushing too hard at picking a fight with the premier wizard of the city and an individual who is well out of your "weight class" - then her favour is going to dry up, and dry up fast. In which case, you're going to get what you have coming to you. A female stupid enough to do that is basically asking for it. There are "rules" and there are rules, and Lolth is not uniform in nature.
I think your approach is just too simplistic to be an accurate depiction of drow society (in Menzoberranzan, at least) beyond the most basic level. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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The Place of Drow Males
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