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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 06:30:18
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Okay, I'm putting this here to avoid cluttering up the 4E FR thread.
Here's a bit of irony that hit me, tonight.
For years, many of us have railed against some of the mistaken opinions about the Realms. In particular, we have fought the idea that Elminster is Ed's Mary Sue, or that the Chosen are nothing more than the Justice League of the Realms, or that Mystra is a too-powerful goody-goody.
Who has held these opinions? People who have taken only the most cursory look at the Realms. And what has been our usual counter? That if the complainers truly examined the setting, if they took the time to really sit down and immerse themselves in it, then they would realize how wrong their misconceptions are.
So now we see some of the designers falling into that trap. And we complain that they don't understand the setting, that they've not taken the time to really learn what makes it tick and how it really operates... Or that they're changing things out of an unwillingness to learn the Realms.
And now, with the first official statement about what 4E FR is going to be like, what do some of us do? The same damn thing we've complained about others doing! We're still a good six months out from seeing the FRCG, but we see even long-time scribes taking a look at the most minute amounts of new information, and deciding they can't stand the setting.
I don't know whether to laugh, or cry, or applaud WotC for turning some of us into our own enemies. Either way, I'm done arguing about it. I've been told I'm insulting people for asking them not to stick their heads in the sand. I've been accused of being pro-4E. I ask people to be reasonable, and I get slammed for it. Screw it. Join the people you've complained about. I don't have the energy to fight it anymore.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 07:04:39
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Other then the fact it was not the first official statement about the Realms, I can agree with why you are fustrated. Just my look at released information was different then yours, thus rising to disagreemeets.
Be at peace, enjoy you birthday and your marriage, after all the Realms is not the most important thing to live for.
Edit: Tried to fix some typos. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 14 Jan 2008 07:06:10 |
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Daviot
Senior Scribe
USA
372 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 08:17:10
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Well, my esteemed hamster, I most humbly and totally agree with you. In defense of everyone's favorite giant space hamster, I offer the following paper:
Daviot's Rant: A Humble Scribe's Thesis on the Advancement of the Years and the Importance of Being Decent
I'm currently neutral on 4th Edition, on the grounds that I really don't have all the information I need to make an informed decision. (Currently, my best estimate is that I'll use some of it, and not the rest, as is my perogative).
But the wide-sweeping accusations based on little hard evidence? It seems like the more I read (either on the Candlekeep forums or on WotC's) the more I see people spewing hate, rancor, bile, and train cars of logical fallacies and personal attacks based on the most cursory of data. A metaphor:
We've determined, that on the horizon, is a quadrupedal mammals. He's too far away to see clearly, but judging from the shape, it's large and catlike. He's walking towards us slowly. Some people in our safari are now yelling about the lion's mane. Who's to say at this distance, that it's even a lion?
To phrase it differently, I know there was a lot of fuss over the 2E to 3E change (and no doubt, Realms fans left because of it), but to be honest, Neverwinter Nights and the 3rd Edition FR Campaign Setting are what took the Realms from something in the back of my mind to something I was actively interested in. And I'm sure that in the future, there will be new Scribes here at Candlekeep because of the 4th Edition.
That said, I love the Realms. I shall wait and see what sort of beast the creature on the horizon turns out to be. If I absolutely can't stand it, I will bow politely and decline. If I think it's the most fantabulous thing since unsliced bread, I will quietly declare it as such. Most likely, it's probably somewhere between the two. Not perfect, not infinitely horrible, but decent. I'm a skilled enough DM to know what I like and what I don't. And I know that right now is not the time to make that decision.
So to my fellow scribes and seekers alike: Please be civil. I can't stop you from leaving if you choose to do so (though the Realms loses a bit of color with each passing), but please don't bring hate and vile accusations into this house. It's tiring, stressful, and sometimes hurtful just to read. If you need to blow off steam and anger, then do so elsewhere (offline, for instance), but the 'keep is not the place. The reason Candlekeep is the only forum I frequent is that even with the supposedly anonymity of the internet, scribes usually do a wonderful job of acting like civilized, decent human beings, and giving wonderful, educated responses.
Thank you, and no matter what your stance, just please be polite about it! |
One usually has far more to fear from the soft-spoken wizard with a blade and well-worn boots than from the boisterous one in the ivory tower.
My Tabletop Writing CV. |
Edited by - Daviot on 14 Jan 2008 08:20:53 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 09:37:52
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Well, since Kentinal spoke of the more important things in life, this debate reminds me quite often on those over at another board on a day when my favourite football (European version) lost a game. Quite often it is daggers and blood, but in the cold light of day, I keep reminding myself of the words one of the great managers of the team once said. Words, which, in the right context, should lead gamers on here to start thinking again before posting ...
“ I have been lucky – lucky in those who were around me from the boardroom to the dressing-room. In time of stress, their unstinted support, unbroken devotion to our club and calmness in adversity eased the task of making Rangers FC the premier club in this country.
To be a Ranger is to sense the sacred trust of upholding all that such a name means in this shrine of football. They must be true in their conception of what the Ibrox tradition seeks from them. No true Ranger has ever failed in the tradition set him.
Our very success, gained you will agree by skill, will draw more people than ever to see it. And that will benefit many more clubs than Rangers. Let others come after us. We welcome the chase. It is healthy for all of us. We will never hide from it. Never fear, inevitably we will have our years of failure, and when they arrive, we must reveal tolerance and sanity. No matter the days of anxiety that come our way, we shall emerge stronger because of the trials to be overcome. That has been the philosophy of the Rangers since the days of the gallant pioneers
That is the story of the Rangers. They have had good times and bad times, critical times and times of exultation. No club with the same modest origin can claim so distinguished a record of achievement.
They were not born in the lap of luxury. They have been the architects of their own fortune, and, simply because of that, they have become equipped with the moral resistive force to grapple with adversity, which is better than being coddled in the cradle and whining when the wind blows cold.
May all who look upon the old club with a friendly eye stand prepared, by precept or example, to protect its interests and its good name”
William Struth Rangers Manager, 1920 to 1954
Honours
European Cup Winners Cup
Winners 1972 Finalist 1961, 1967.
Scottish League Champions (a World Record 51)
1981 1899 1900 1901 1902 1911 1912 1913 1918 1920
1921 1923 1924 1925 1927 1928 1929 1930 1931 1933
1934 1935 1937 1939 1947 1949 1950 1953 1956 1957
1959 1961 1963 1964 1975 1976 1978 1987 1989 1990
1991 1992 1993 1994 1995 1996 1997 1999 2000 2003
2005
Scottish Cup Winners (31)
1894 1897 1898 1903 1928 1930 1932 1934 1935 1936
1948 1949 1950 1953 1960 1962 1963 1964 1966 1973
1976 1978 1979 1981 1992 1993 1996 1999 2000 2002
2003
Scottish League Cup Winners (24)
Season starting
1946 1948 1960 1961 1963 1964 1970 1975 1977 1978
1981 1983 1984 1986 1987 1988 1990 1992 1993 1996
1998 2001 2002 2005
I think you will forgive me posting something slightly off-topic. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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LordArcana
Seeker
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 12:58:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Here's a bit of irony that hit me, tonight.
For years, many of us have railed against some of the mistaken opinions about the Realms. In particular, we have fought the idea that Elminster is Ed's Mary Sue, or that the Chosen are nothing more than the Justice League of the Realms, or that Mystra is a too-powerful goody-goody.....
With all due respect i have to disagree. While i can't say what i have seen from spoilers and leaks has impressed me, despite the spoilers of 2nd and 3rd that i saw did impress me...my main gripe is marketing.
Counting everything i have purchased from basic D&D to 3.5 i have spent several thousand dollars and i think it is just outrageous the increased cost of FR products over standard D&D products as well as having to spend a couple hundred dollars to buy new core books for 4thE.
I have seen remarks from WoTC say they want to make the game easier for new players...well WTF! What about old players. Is it easy to just go and change everything forcing people to buy new versions of all the books they alreay have to play the "new" game?
Yes you are right WotC is not holding a gun to their head...hence the reason i will not buy into the marketing scam of 4thE. BUT this just has the feel of a pure scam. A scam like the kick in the balls of 3.5 right after 3.0 was released. For those of you who know Monte Cook he has even explained the MAIN reason he left was at a celebratory party of the release of 3.0 one of the "head honchos" approached him and told him the good news. All the ideas Monte had during the work for 3.0 were going to be added to the game....add in the 3.5 version MARKETING said would be a good idea. This was the first scam.
I was fooled once...shame on me...it won't happen again. |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 13:38:12
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| I have no problem with the chosen, I do, however, have a problem with a certain dual-weilding drow and his fanboys. |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 15:03:34
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quote:
Originally posted by LordArcana
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Here's a bit of irony that hit me, tonight.
For years, many of us have railed against some of the mistaken opinions about the Realms. In particular, we have fought the idea that Elminster is Ed's Mary Sue, or that the Chosen are nothing more than the Justice League of the Realms, or that Mystra is a too-powerful goody-goody.....
With all due respect i have to disagree. While i can't say what i have seen from spoilers and leaks has impressed me, despite the spoilers of 2nd and 3rd that i saw did impress me...my main gripe is marketing.
Counting everything i have purchased from basic D&D to 3.5 i have spent several thousand dollars and i think it is just outrageous the increased cost of FR products over standard D&D products as well as having to spend a couple hundred dollars to buy new core books for 4thE.
I have seen remarks from WoTC say they want to make the game easier for new players...well WTF! What about old players. Is it easy to just go and change everything forcing people to buy new versions of all the books they alreay have to play the "new" game?
Yes you are right WotC is not holding a gun to their head...hence the reason i will not buy into the marketing scam of 4thE. BUT this just has the feel of a pure scam. A scam like the kick in the balls of 3.5 right after 3.0 was released. For those of you who know Monte Cook he has even explained the MAIN reason he left was at a celebratory party of the release of 3.0 one of the "head honchos" approached him and told him the good news. All the ideas Monte had during the work for 3.0 were going to be added to the game....add in the 3.5 version MARKETING said would be a good idea. This was the first scam.
I was fooled once...shame on me...it won't happen again.
Wotc would like to thank you for the $$$$ you have spent since they aquired FR, but now they think they can wring a few more $ from getting new players and the few who stay loyal.
Sucks to be us.
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A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 15:19:10
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On a sidenote ... the Wizards could have saved themselves (and consequently us) from a lot of turmoil and anger, had they kept quiet. I mean, from a sellers' point of view, why spill the beans about a 4E when a 3RE Rules Compandium was about to hit the shelves? Why tell us in advance of a major shake-up to the Realms 8 to 9 month before more details, i.e. a FRCS is out? To amend the project to possible outcries by the gamers? Honestly, they spoke about the 4E in private quite some time ago and now it looks as if people* at the Wizards are still writing major works and articles every day? Come on.
* I have read quite a number of names mentioned with regard to the New Realms and it appears that quite a number of those have either not worked on anything Realmsish, or anything settingish before at all. Put that on top of the released scrolls on the New Realms and there is no wonder that people are lingering just short of the cliff's edge or looking for the self-destruct manuals. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 15:49:54
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Wooly, I understand why you are upset (for the record I respect your vier, even tho I do not share it), but for me who has limited resources, and feels that 3.x is the best thing in level-based RPGs so far (notice the so far here!) is not impressed by what has been revealed so far. I do not rant against 4e in general, the game should of course evolve, as you hopefully have noticed, but it is against the changes of the Realms which bug me personally. If I were to play in 4e Realms all the stuff that has gone before, including the maps, will be pointless, and that is what I refuse to accept. Had the design team done something that doesn't have plotholes and logic-errors blatantly jumping at you I would be able to live with it.
They haven't and I won't. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 16:20:22
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I don't agree that "the enemy is us". But I would agree that people need to be reasonable and not start attacking each other (regardless of what "side" one is on) or the designers for that matter.
I don't think there is a way for this time to not be emotional, given the way a setting that we've grown to care about so much is changing. People are thinking with their hearts. *I'm* thinking with my heart, and I'm often wary about doing that. All we can do is get through this, and treat other people with respect. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 16:26:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Daviot
But the wide-sweeping accusations based on little hard evidence?
Do remember that we know enough to formulate an opinion, though. Being upset that Mystra is dead, for good, (like I am) isn't jumping at shadows, it *is* based on hard, written-in-stone fact. Mystra's death was published in a canon source (GHotR), it was mentioned again in Dragon, and Rich Baker has said more than once that they won't be "back-peddling" on the issue.
Opinions can change, too. I've already seen it happen several times with certain online people I know. So while I agree with being polite and respectful, I also have to disagree with the stance some take (I'm not looking at anyone specific here) that we don't know enough to have an opinion one way or another. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 16:42:20
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I like the progressive detailing and deepening of the Realms, and the way it currently works. It isn't the least bit speculative to regret that that detailing is being ended, or to doubt that a world written from stated design principles and commercial purposes other than those of Ed's Realms will be one I'll like as much.
Put another way, the Realms they're promising, if the promises (except the vaguest ones like 'you'll like it') are fulfilled, is one I wouldn't give much time or attention to. I'm therefore hoping, and I really am, that the power and integrity of Ed's world will somehow keep prevailing over the more superficial work laid on top of it, and that the counterweighing new ideas and other unknowns will be better and more wonderful than the designers' past work gives reason to expect.
(Otherwise, I hope it's clear that I agree with Wooly.) |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 18:01:31
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| I understand and respect what you are saying Wooly, but the main things that I have been complaining about are things that they have said are set in stone (various Chosen gone bye-bye, 104 year time jump, that terrible soap opera, Dragon born coming form another world when they had already be given an origin in Dragons of Faerun and they we knocking on other cultures from other world being inserted into the Realms, et cetera). And also, I cannot not be emotional, I have invested many hours reading and dollars into buying books and supplements and completely fallen in love with the world. Anyway you look at it, I have been an advocate (here and on the WotC boards) for everyone who is considering the "new" Realms (Pro, Con, and Neutral) to go to their local book/hobby/game shop and check out the FRCG (Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide) before voting with their wallet. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
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My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 18:18:57
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| Also, I would like to gently point out (as a general reminder, not specifically "at" anybody) that it's each person's right to make their own decisions, even if they truly are "poorly informed". At the end of the day, this isn't a matter of life and death. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 20:39:30
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| The information available in this internet time has led to common speculation about what companies 'should' do, and almost always it's ambiguously entangled with what each person individually wants, because to have enough information to form a semi-informed opinion you need knowledge, and thus a specific personal experience, of the setting, its publishing history and the industry in general. No one is objective here. So we get predictable but unfortunate cul-de-sacs like tribalism, demonization, projection of personal preference into market reality, Stockholm Syndrome-like corporate faith, and so on. But neither can we avoid having views on what we'd like to see done. The approach I try to take is conditional: given these priorities and these assumptions, this follows, and so on. Without seeing and defining those purposes and conditions, so much of these arguments is people talking past each other. |
Edited by - Faraer on 14 Jan 2008 20:42:52 |
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LordArcana
Seeker
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 21:00:43
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by LordArcana
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Here's a bit of irony that hit me, tonight.
For years, many of us have railed against some of the mistaken opinions about the Realms. In particular, we have fought the idea that Elminster is Ed's Mary Sue, or that the Chosen are nothing more than the Justice League of the Realms, or that Mystra is a too-powerful goody-goody.....
With all due respect i have to disagree. While i can't say what i have seen from spoilers and leaks has impressed me, despite the spoilers of 2nd and 3rd that i saw did impress me...my main gripe is marketing.
Counting everything i have purchased from basic D&D to 3.5 i have spent several thousand dollars and i think it is just outrageous the increased cost of FR products over standard D&D products as well as having to spend a couple hundred dollars to buy new core books for 4thE.
I have seen remarks from WoTC say they want to make the game easier for new players...well WTF! What about old players. Is it easy to just go and change everything forcing people to buy new versions of all the books they alreay have to play the "new" game?
Yes you are right WotC is not holding a gun to their head...hence the reason i will not buy into the marketing scam of 4thE. BUT this just has the feel of a pure scam. A scam like the kick in the balls of 3.5 right after 3.0 was released. For those of you who know Monte Cook he has even explained the MAIN reason he left was at a celebratory party of the release of 3.0 one of the "head honchos" approached him and told him the good news. All the ideas Monte had during the work for 3.0 were going to be added to the game....add in the 3.5 version MARKETING said would be a good idea. This was the first scam.
I was fooled once...shame on me...it won't happen again.
Wotc would like to thank you for the $$$$ you have spent since they aquired FR, but now they think they can wring a few more $ from getting new players and the few who stay loyal.
Sucks to be us.
They weren't getting this already with each new product that came out? The part that drives the nail in my coffin is...
PHB - $29.95 317 pages of core info with a very well setup index and side section detailing conditions and effects.
Faiths & Pantheons - $32.95 223 pages of core info plus some new additional info. Half the core info is a direct copy from the FRCS.
So $3 more just for the FR logo and 2/3 the material...less considering a 1/3 of that is just reprinted from other core books.
Yeha i know i am the sucker for falling in love with the FR.
Here is another perfect example. For those that bought the Forgotten Realms Interactive Atlas...Beautiful product..well constructed. Personally i have never had a crash or a problem software related. Next edition of the game that comes out what happens? The scale of the maps change and the atlas's feature of calculating distance is shot! Nomore calculating overland travel times because mysteriously the whole damn planet got smaller overnight.
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Edited by - LordArcana on 14 Jan 2008 21:16:02 |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 21:22:40
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
I understand and respect what you are saying Wooly, but the main things that I have been complaining about are things that they have said are set in stone (various Chosen gone bye-bye, 104 year time jump, that terrible soap opera, Dragon born coming form another world when they had already be given an origin in Dragons of Faerun and they we knocking on other cultures from other world being inserted into the Realms, et cetera). And also, I cannot not be emotional, I have invested many hours reading and dollars into buying books and supplements and completely fallen in love with the world. Anyway you look at it, I have been an advocate (here and on the WotC boards) for everyone who is considering the "new" Realms (Pro, Con, and Neutral) to go to their local book/hobby/game shop and check out the FRCG (Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide) before voting with their wallet.
Amen. I didn't go GYYAAAA!!! as soon as I heard that a 4th ed was coming. In fact, I was happy, since I had heard that crunch would take back-stage to lore in the new edition. It was only after all those pieces you have mentioned emerged that I decided(104 years!)to officially say: Wotc aint getting no more of my euros. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 00:34:39
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| I love the realms even more after having been a part of Candlekeep. I think that should be a requirement for Realms gamers. It would really clear up a lot of the heresay and bad interpretations of the Realms. I had my player tell me a story about Elminster the other day that was totally off. He got it second hand from a friend of his and I doubt his friend actually read any of the Elminster books to say the least. Wooly, with 4th edition coming the Realms need heroes in it's players and it's Realms lorekeepers. Wooly, you are one of those heroes. Stay strong for the rest of us during this turbulent change. :) |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 00:55:29
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I posted a bit of news in a thread of its own (this forum), and in the 4e FR thread.
I don't want to be one of those folks with his "head in the sand", but when the Writing is on the wall, I read it.
The setting is beginning to look like 'something' else... The Weave is gone, and we have the Shadowfell/Shadow Weave a'la Birthright's Shadow World taking it's place.
I deleted the original comment I had here - I enjoy being a member here too much to jeopardize that, and in the coming storm ahead, many people will need a safe port to abide in.
It's just not right, though... 
Sorry Wooly - I know how you feel; honest I do. I've been trying to be "the voice of reason" for the past few weeks now over at WotC, and telling everyone to 'wait and see'. The most recent announcements have just blown the wind out of my sails, though. Its hard to run 'damage control' for WotC, when they keep releasing material that is biting them in the a_s. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Jan 2008 01:00:50 |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 02:19:45
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Wooly, I´m really with you. Today, I stay re-reading the "Countdown to the Realms", and thinking: what really is the problem?
Because, IMO, until now, the only real change is the death of Mystra.
To me, Waterdeep is the same (and the Sword Coast, too). Yes, the Walking Statues go rampant. Yes, they already have do this in my campaings, so, what´s the point? Baldur´s Gate is bigger. This don´t bother me,really. I never DMed in Baldur´s Gate, and never played there.
Netheril return! Really? In the 4th edition? I could swear that this happen in the Return of the Archwizard series, where stay clear that no one was capable to stop the shade princes. :)
So, Netheril return in the 3E! So, what´s the point?
Cormyr continues being Cormyr. So, what´s the point?
Sembia fall!! Like all my players will say: "Yaaaaaaaaaahoooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!"
And now, we have a new race tranplanted in Faerûn (dragonborn). This is outrageous!!! How could they do this?? Migrate a new race to the Realms(Someone hear saurials?)? This never happened in the Realms history(Someone hear Unther, Mulhorandi, elves, orcs...ad infintum???)!
So, really.... what´s the point?
The "new Realms" is no more the Realms because... errr... ???
And I´m with you, Wooly. This is the first, and the last time that I will post something about the 4E... I have other things that request my energy. |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 02:24:36
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Only a sidenote: I will not migrate any of my current campaigns to the new rules, or the new setting. :)
Too many humans in my campaigns, and to many things happening under the 3.5 rules. |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 03:09:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
Wooly, I´m really with you. Today, I stay re-reading the "Countdown to the Realms", and thinking: what really is the problem?
Because, IMO, until now, the only real change is the death of Mystra.
Uh...no? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 04:20:10
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Wooly your comparison is off for a few reasons.....
- The change from 3rd to 4th edition is far more reaching and world altering than the changes from 1st to 3rd. While we don't know all the specifics, we have the bullet points and those alone are huge.
- We know a little something about the current Realms, and major changes to that setting is what we have a problem with.
- If WoTC were to create a NEW setting with the Spellplague setting, some of us may have been more apt to play or examine the setting.
Our "enemies" have an issue of Ignorance of the Realms. Our issue is one of disliking the CHANGE, not Ignorance of what the Realms is being changed into. While we don't know all that is changing into, we do know enough and have been told in no uncertain terms that the change is large and significant.
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Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 08:27:43
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I suppose I am something of a late comer to this whole Fourth Edition mess, having only found out about the impending edition change as the result of an off-handed comment a friend made to me. As a result I have only recently become aware of the proverbial dissension in the ranks of the Forgotten Realms faithful that has led to some much woe and heart ache. This has, perhaps, left me with significantly cooler emotions in regards to the current manner discussion, having not had the opportunity to grow weary with it as of yet.
That having been said, while I agree making wholesale predictions of doom are certainly premature, I do not agree that there exists too little fact to form an opinion on the edition change, generally, and its effects on the Forgotten Realms, specifically. Many sweeping changes to the setting have been concretely revealed, and while the whole picture of the Fourth Edition Realms has not been displayed as of yet, it has left me, a veteran of past sweeping setting changes, with a sense of unease.
I suppose a great deal of this unease comes from the nature of some of these changes that have been revealed, the death of Mystra, a change in the nature of magic, the wholesale restructuring of pantheons and the dreaded "points of light" are indicative not merely of a structural or historical change in the setting. but of a tonal one. To explain, my fondness of the Realms is not predicated off the existence of an independent Sembia, a smaller Baldur's Gate, or even the continued reign of Mystra as goddess of magic. It is predicated off of the what all the elements of the Forgotten Realms combine to produce, a tone for the setting that makes it distinct and appealing, and what changes I have read leave me feeling that with Fourth Edition that the tone of the Realms will change and that I don't like.
And in the end that is what makes me more leery of this change than the Time of Troubles, which while having far reaching effects, did little to change to tone of the Realms. That having been said, no judgments are final on my part and I will, I assure you, strive to maintain a civil discourse in any matter I discuss. No matter what we each may be feeling at this time it is no excuse to behave inappropriately or in a manner which reflects poorly on the Candlekeep and Forgotten Realms communities or ourselves as individuals.
In closing I feel I must state my objection to a common counter claim to those cautioning optimism, that if you dislike the new Realms don't use them. Bluntly put, this has been true of Dungeons & Dragons as long as there has been Dungeons & Dragons, and while true is, I think, missing the point to some extent. While I can, and have, create my own world independent of published campaign settings or can adopt an official setting and develop it completely separately from further published material does not mean that the direction published material takes is not important. My Realms, like everyone's Realms, varies in some way from what is published in the books, but that does not mean that what is in said books is still not valuable and desired. Sure we can change it or disregard it, I often do, but I still value the published materials for the idea and concepts they offer, combining them with my ideas and the ideas of other gamers to produce the world I want to game in. Yes I can play D&D just fine without a new Cormyr sourcebook, but without it I may be missing some idea, story, concept, character, plot hook, something useful to expand and enrich my world, and if the designers choose to irrevocably alter to tone of the setting in such a way that is no longer congruent with my world then I have lost something valuable, another contribution from designer who have in the past produced fine material to enrich my experience. So, while I can operate independent of what is published, that does not mean I have no vested interest in trying to prevent that. I have been developing Greyhawk independent of any published materials for quite sometime now and it would break my heart if a day came when the Forgotten Realms joined it in that category.
So, I shall continue to reserve final judgment on this brave new world we are about to enter while remaining uneasy about its course. I hope that it turns out okay in the end, like the ending of a nice book where everyone gets taken on a harrowing ride and then back home to sit by the fire and wax poetic about the trials and tribulations of the whole thing. Hmm...I guess I am an optimist after all. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 08:40:17
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Reasons why I am optimistic and excited about the 4e Realms
1) Tons of new FR lore coming our way. I will use the lore I like and ignore the lore I don't care for, but some of it is bound to be good.
2) The new rules set sounds like it is going to be easier to learn, easier to play and adjudicate and easier for the DM to prepare. All around it sounds like a lot more fun.
3) If the 4e Realms brings in a lot of new Realms fans, I look forward to meeting and discussing with them on the boards. It would not hurt us to have an influx of new ideas and views into our community.
4) If the influx of new Realms fans makes the Realms more financially stable and profitable, WotC can afford to commission new Realmslore far into the future. This will help ensure that our Realms will be safe and secure and continue publishing for a good long time.
5) If the Realms is more financially profitable, they can afford to commission more great works from our favorite authors like Ed Greenwood, Eric, Steven, Elaine, Tom, George, Brian and many other fine sages, maybe even pay them more to boot. I think that keeping the great Realmslore authors and designers happy and engaged with the setting can only be a good thing for us the fans, ensuring that we get to read more of the good stuff for a long time to come.
Sure I have a few fears and worries about the changes, but I am willing to withold judgment and wait to see what the team comes up with. In the long run I am hopeful that it will be a net positive, with more good lore on the horizon than bad.
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 18:05:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Okay, I'm putting this here to avoid cluttering up the 4E FR thread.
Here's a bit of irony that hit me, tonight.
For years, many of us have railed against some of the mistaken opinions about the Realms. In particular, we have fought the idea that Elminster is Ed's Mary Sue, or that the Chosen are nothing more than the Justice League of the Realms, or that Mystra is a too-powerful goody-goody.
Who has held these opinions? People who have taken only the most cursory look at the Realms. And what has been our usual counter? That if the complainers truly examined the setting, if they took the time to really sit down and immerse themselves in it, then they would realize how wrong their misconceptions are.
So now we see some of the designers falling into that trap. And we complain that they don't understand the setting, that they've not taken the time to really learn what makes it tick and how it really operates... Or that they're changing things out of an unwillingness to learn the Realms.
And now, with the first official statement about what 4E FR is going to be like, what do some of us do? The same damn thing we've complained about others doing! We're still a good six months out from seeing the FRCG, but we see even long-time scribes taking a look at the most minute amounts of new information, and deciding they can't stand the setting.
I don't know whether to laugh, or cry, or applaud WotC for turning some of us into our own enemies. Either way, I'm done arguing about it. I've been told I'm insulting people for asking them not to stick their heads in the sand. I've been accused of being pro-4E. I ask people to be reasonable, and I get slammed for it. Screw it. Join the people you've complained about. I don't have the energy to fight it anymore.
-Clap, clap, clap. Well said Wooly!
Brimstone. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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GRYPHON
Senior Scribe
USA
527 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2008 : 06:00:41
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| Well said, Wooly... |
'Everyone dies...I only choose the time and place for a few.' --Eric Destler |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2008 : 10:48:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Reasons why I am optimistic and excited about the 4e Realms
Let me have some comments on this reply ... not meant personally and in no way shall it insult or offend.
quote:
1) Tons of new FR lore coming our way. I will use the lore I like and ignore the lore I don't care for, but some of it is bound to be good.
After my first post and the football remark, let me place another analogy: Tottenham Hotspur, a great team of the English Premier League spent tens of millions of pounds on really great footballers, people (you will probably never have heard of) like Berbatov, Robby Keane, Jenas, Defoe, or Malbranque. But while supporters have looked at the team line-up and started the season with high hopes, the team still does not perform above average level ... and has been for years.
I really hope that some of what will come our way is "bound to be good", but will the current "fanbase" consider "some" as being enough?
quote:
2) The new rules set sounds like it is going to be easier to learn, easier to play and adjudicate and easier for the DM to prepare. All around it sounds like a lot more fun.
That was the argument when 3E/RE was hitting the shelves. No doubt, it was considerably easier to learn than AD&D, but if we make all things easier, will we eventually end up with serving the e.g. videogamers' or Drizzt - comic factions, who want fun fast and easy? The 4E rules will not be that easy to learn either, but you have to wonder whether the 3E/RE rules-set was that (or more) difficult? Is there any reason to really believe that 4E gamers and DMs will not face problems with conflicting rules or rules conflicting with e.g. realistic descriptions? (E.g., if "Sneaking" is a replacement of Move Silently and Hide, would you Core hard rule any Move Silently or Hide attempt anywhere at every time with just one roll? A newby DM most likely would. Any decent DM worth his/her name would surely not. I'd assume they will give you detailed rules for Sneaking, but if they do that, it won't getting "much" easier, you'd just need one roll less ... wow.)
quote:
3) If the 4e Realms brings in a lot of new Realms fans, I look forward to meeting and discussing with them on the boards. It would not hurt us to have an influx of new ideas and views into our community.
Does it really? From what I gather (very subjective, I'll grant that) there is a lot of discontent among the "old" FRers on here (SIC!) and the WizBoards. It looks (!) like many FR-DMs and gamers look at the changes to the Realms with trepidation, me included. There is no doubt that the New Realms will draw new gamers over the coming years, every edition has. Yet, for most of that time there was no direct competition (no insult intended, Dragonlancers and Greyhawkers), now we have. Many FRers have "jumped ship" and found their new home in Eberron. Many new gamers have already started with Eberron (possibly via the Dragonshard game) and after all the High-level-NPC bashing that accompanies any debate on the Realms, no wonder about that. So while there is every chance that some new gamers may opt for the Realms, losing disgruntled old campaigners (Spellplague chaos et al) to teach the newbies is not that great an idea. Objectively (IMHO, of course), the New Realms will have a hard time winning over old customers, and an even harder time acquiring new customers, due to the fact the there's a competitor in the market.
quote:
4) If the influx of new Realms fans makes the Realms more financially stable and profitable, WotC can afford to commission new Realmslore far into the future. This will help ensure that our Realms will be safe and secure and continue publishing for a good long time.
Well, I for one really hope that the first "if" will become more than just wishful thinking.
quote:
5) If the Realms is more financially profitable, they can afford to commission more great works from our favorite authors like Ed Greenwood, Eric, Steven, Elaine, Tom, George, Brian and many other fine sages, maybe even pay them more to boot. I think that keeping the great Realmslore authors and designers happy and engaged with the setting can only be a good thing for us the fans, ensuring that we get to read more of the good stuff for a long time to come.
Again, a lot of if's and but's involved. I for one cannot see the New Realms hitting the ground off and running ... and thus being considered profitable. For if they don't, the whole scenario may very well turn pretty sour indeed. We'll really have to wait and see.
quote:
Sure I have a few fears and worries about the changes, but I am willing to withold judgment and wait to see what the team comes up with. In the long run I am hopeful that it will be a net positive, with more good lore on the horizon than bad.
Well, that is probably what we all hope for. Currently, the emotions run quite high and rightly so. Many people feel that much of the heart has been taken out of the Realms already, and that even before we know all the facts. It looks as if even the old hands are required to learn the setting anew from the off and forget about half of their knowledge. I am not sure how many will really want to do that, after decades of gaming.
In some ways, as I have said before, it feels like your football team's bosses decide that your time as a football team is over now, a new challenge (and greater profits) await on other shores. So we keep the name, scrap the football team and create a baseball side instead. We keep the stadium and the groundstaff and tell the supporters that we will be doing really well ... in the baseball league. Might ring a bit hollow in the former football team's supporters' ears?
Well, maybe Tymora will still be around come summer and smiles upon the Realms (or us) nonetheless ... |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 16 Jan 2008 11:01:27 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2008 : 15:54:06
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I, for one, like how the new rules are shaping up. However, my opinion of the 4E mechanics is seperate from my opinion of the 4E Realms setting.
I actually am amenable to the idea of rolling narrow, similar skills all into one skill. I see that as a benefit for players as well as DMs. Just my opinion. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Haman
Seeker
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2008 : 16:30:48
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A decent rant, and one I almost agree with in its entirety.
On the matter of "simmer down people, wait and see" I whole-heartedly agree. Too much has yet to be revealed, and what has been revealed are mini-cliff notes, that the length some of the posters go with the drama and rants staggers me. But of course, that is their right and I totally back that. What you wish to say, however loud and flamey, is yours to say (as long as the mods don't cut it), and I might disagree with the post but not your right to say so.
Even the amount of personal involvement (I mean emotional) baffles me. I've played the Realms since the gray box came out, have every product they've published (save the Great Kahn game, durnit), and DO love it with a passion. But I check that at the door when another person speaks or yells, here or elsewhere, about the Realms. Not to toot my own horn (toot-toot), but so few of the people here seem to do so. Maybe that could be an issue? Maybe that could be where so much of the hostility/negative posts/emotional arguements stem from? Maybe. If we could all just take a breath, step back, and look at it rationally, then maybe everything wouldn't be so scarey, and maybe we could get some real philosophical and speculative debates going that could help each of us over the hurdles that 4th ed. is bringing our way. Don't get me wrong, over 99% of the topics on this board is mind-blowing and fantastic and riddled with amazing Realms discourse, I'm specifically talking about the 4th ed. rants and 4th ed. assumptive posts. Forgive me, Wooly, but that was the only thing I saw from your rant that struck me as queer. The last paragraph smacks too much of the little kid declaring "well...*sniffle*...I'm going to take my ball and go home". No, I'm NOT calling you a little kid (have to be so very careful around here sometimes...), I'm pointing out that maybe you got a little too emotionally involved in the 4th ed. mire. As with the board, over 99% of your posts is quality-stuff. Don't fall into that trap and cut yourself and others off of further, constructive discussions.
Then again, if this viewpoint of mine is ignored or argued with, so be it. Again, everyone is free to do what they please as long as it doesn't affect me directly. Go on with the rants and the arguements if you all wish, I'll stay mum and watch from the shadows.
Lastly, though it may not be the right place for it, I just wanted to throw out a few things I was thinking about when I saw the "I'm boycotting 4th edition FR" claims. To those people I wanted to ask a few simple questions: 1) Do you really have enough information about 4th edition FR to make such a claim, or is it simple anger at what little you've seen so far? 2) Could you not make a list of ridiculous happenings and events from 1st/2nd/3rd editions of FR D&D that would make the 4th edition preview material look pretty sane? ("Once around the Realms", anyone?) 3) Should the boycott actually work, do you think they'd revert it back to 1375DR and the Realms you love? 4) Again, should the boycott actually work and this time they simply kill off the Realms, wouldn't you be denying the few scraps and gems of true Realms lore that even the worst Accessory might still have? 5) Again, if the boycott worked and they killed the Realms, wouldn't WotC simply lay off most of the Realms authors and creators that helped shape the Realms you loved, thus sending them packing or shuffling them off to other systems? 6) If the 104 year jump actually becomes fairly intriguing and the new Realms starts putting out quality material and imaginative sourcebooks, won't you look partly foolish ala chicken little?
I had like 10 other things I could ask, but don't have the time...I think you all get my point. Hope this wasn't insulting in any way, it was not meant to be at all, and I wish you all the best.
Good Gaming! |
Some people say we gamers have no lives....I think we have too many. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2008 : 16:53:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Haman
1) Do you really have enough information about 4th edition FR to make such a claim, or is it simple anger at what little you've seen so far?
I'm not one those people who is actively advocating a "boycott" of the 4E Realms setting. However, I HAVE seen enough so far to be turned off. For example, there's the death of Mystra and the deletion of the concept of her Chosen. Those are elements of the setting that are VERY important to me, and the decision to excise them from the Realms is mainly (from what I've gathered so far) to appease people who believe Mystra dominates the setting and is "all-powerful and all-good". So basically, that means the Realms is being shaped in such a manner for people who I would vehemently disagree with. I see no reason to accept changes in *my* Realms that weren't done to make me happy.
quote:
6) If the 104 year jump actually becomes fairly intriguing and the new Realms starts putting out quality material and imaginative sourcebooks, won't you look partly foolish ala chicken little?
Are you suggesting that it's a shameful thing to have a change of opinion? I disagree. I think it can be worse to simply decide not to have an opinion in the first place simply so you won't have to "eat your words" later.
As I've said before, this isn't a matter of life and death. No one's life is at stake based on whether or not people love or hate the new Realms. So who really cares if people are being "chicken little"? Believe it or not, most of us here, if not all of us, have a realistic perspective of things. Just because we get emotional about the Realms setting doesn't mean we think it's the most important thing in life (which, I have to admit, is what you seem to be suggesting at some points in your post). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 16 Jan 2008 16:54:56 |
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Dark irony: the enemy is us (Wooly's rant)
