| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 06:30:18
Okay, I'm putting this here to avoid cluttering up the 4E FR thread.
Here's a bit of irony that hit me, tonight.
For years, many of us have railed against some of the mistaken opinions about the Realms. In particular, we have fought the idea that Elminster is Ed's Mary Sue, or that the Chosen are nothing more than the Justice League of the Realms, or that Mystra is a too-powerful goody-goody.
Who has held these opinions? People who have taken only the most cursory look at the Realms. And what has been our usual counter? That if the complainers truly examined the setting, if they took the time to really sit down and immerse themselves in it, then they would realize how wrong their misconceptions are.
So now we see some of the designers falling into that trap. And we complain that they don't understand the setting, that they've not taken the time to really learn what makes it tick and how it really operates... Or that they're changing things out of an unwillingness to learn the Realms.
And now, with the first official statement about what 4E FR is going to be like, what do some of us do? The same damn thing we've complained about others doing! We're still a good six months out from seeing the FRCG, but we see even long-time scribes taking a look at the most minute amounts of new information, and deciding they can't stand the setting.
I don't know whether to laugh, or cry, or applaud WotC for turning some of us into our own enemies. Either way, I'm done arguing about it. I've been told I'm insulting people for asking them not to stick their heads in the sand. I've been accused of being pro-4E. I ask people to be reasonable, and I get slammed for it. Screw it. Join the people you've complained about. I don't have the energy to fight it anymore. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Zanan |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 21:22:02
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
My opinion of Ed being on board is he's too much of a gentlemen to abandon the Realms just because he doesn't like the changes the powers incharge have ordered for the Realms.
Doesn't that somehow imply that ... on another day ... he also likes a visit to a temple of Loviatar? |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 17:40:09
My opinion of Ed being on board is he's too much of a gentlemen to abandon the Realms just because he doesn't like the changes the powers incharge have ordered for the Realms. |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 13:35:45
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
Ed still is on board of the ship. So, Iīm here, too. 
I am with you friend....
but just to be safe I'm gonna go count the lifeboats   |
| hammer of Moradin |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 07:17:06
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
So, if someone have a opinion, donīt matter if he/she/it like or dislike the 4th Edition FR, letīs start to be more sensitive about this... Everyone here is posting with his heart in the point of his fingers. But there are hearts in the other sides of the monitor, too. No one here need to be doctrinated about what is (or not is) good to the Realms. Everyone knows exactly what is good to his Realms.
Ed still is on board of the ship. So, Iīm here, too.
Sniff, sniff. Dwarves can be so eloquent.
|
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 21:54:27
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
So, if someone have a opinion, donīt matter if he/she/it like or dislike the 4th Edition FR, letīs start to be more sensitive about this... Everyone here is posting with his heart in the point of his fingers. But there are hearts in the other sides of the monitor, too. No one here need to be doctrinated about what is (or not is) good to the Realms. Everyone knows exactly what is good to his Realms.
Heh, nicely put. |
| Chosen of Moradin |
Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 14:54:06
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
It seems to me that the anger flares up when someone posts and tells us what we should think about the changes.
And Yes I have read more than enough to know that I do not like the changes.
I have stated my opinion that I hate the enormity of the changes.
I also hate the lack of logic and reasoning behind them.
But, I have never, ever told someone else that they should not like them. Or that they should like them.Or that they have not read enough to have valid opinion.Or that they are being alarmists.
Most everyone here is being genuine with their feelings do feel that strongly against and some for.
Seems like tempers flare when people call out others feelings and call them names trying to label them, thereby attempt to discredit their opposition to the changes. It feels like those few have an agenda and go out of their way to fan the flames.
I think we would have a much better discussion if the labeling, calling out individual opinions and lobbying for or against would stop and we just give our take on it. I know my scrolls are not meant as a personal affront to anyone or any "side" to this issue. They are just my thoughts.
Simply put, Lets debate the changes and their effects not each others feelings. We all have the right to feel how we do about this without being told how we should feel about them. If this continues to happen then this discussion belongs in Zhentil Keep not Candlekeep.
Agreed, friend! IMO, the problem appear on the two sides: if someone start a topic "created to talk about the dark side of the changes", a lot of people appear only to say that they disagree, and to post an enormity of reasons that support their point of view;
In the other side, if someone open a scroll to talk about what they like in the changes, quickly a lot of scribes (more greater than the other side) appear only to disagree, and to "clarify the minds of the herds shepperd by WoTC"...
Of course, a lot of people will argue with my statement, because "everyone have the right to debate, and to disagree, and to talk about his/her/it opinions"
I agreed with this, but letīs be a little rational now, friends: we are talking about something that we love. Everyone here love the Realms, in first place. This is the ring that bind us all, here in the halls of Alaundo. The love for the Realms and his multiple sides (like the brightest diamond).
So, if someone have a opinion, donīt matter if he/she/it like or dislike the 4th Edition FR, letīs start to be more sensitive about this... Everyone here is posting with his heart in the point of his fingers. But there are hearts in the other sides of the monitor, too. No one here need to be doctrinated about what is (or not is) good to the Realms. Everyone knows exactly what is good to his Realms.
Ed still is on board of the ship. So, Iīm here, too. |
| BARDOBARBAROS |
Posted - 17 Jan 2008 : 20:37:07
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
quote:
Originally posted by BARDOBARBAROS
where are all the great game designers of tsr???
Not working for Wizards, that's for sure.
quote:
where is monte cook??
Well he was doing his own stuff, the he found out about 4E and decided to retire.
quote:
where is margaret weiss??
She rewrites Dragonlance novels and I hear has started her own rpg publishing company.
thanks Sirurza..I know the answers in all my questions.. they were just rhetorically asked..
I also agree with youR last post...
but we must do something to stop the transformation of FAERUN..if ED GREENWOOD is pent to wizards WE ARE NOT ...
and WE MUST DEFEND FAERUN.... FOR HIM...AND FOR US |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 17 Jan 2008 : 19:38:59
Wooly while I respect you I can't agree with you. Waterdeep is cool and all, but I can copy it and put it in my own setting. Same for Silverymoon. Same for Cormyr.
One of the things that has always appealed to me are the characters. The core group of gods, the chosen, all of ed's secondary cast of characters, and many much more. My favorite god is dead, most of the chosen will likely be dead too.. unless they magically cheat death.. and all of the secondary cast of characters will also be dead.. from old sage.
Arilyn and Danillo will both be dead. Elaith will be alive, his daughter will be prime for adventuring age, restoring the family honor, and taking up the family moonblade (assuming moonblades survive 4E and Elaine's last novel.)
Hell, it wouldn't surprise me to see new leaders of the Zhents!
The point that I'm trying to make, the things that I like about the Realms is pretty much dead. The fact that the city still stands doesn't mean the people that I liked in it are still there. |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 17 Jan 2008 : 19:33:09
quote:
Originally posted by BARDOBARBAROS
where are all the great game designers of tsr???
Not working for Wizards, that's for sure.
quote:
where is monte cook??
Well he was doing his own stuff, the he found out about 4E and decided to retire.
quote:
where is margaret weiss??
She rewrites Dragonlance novels and I hear has started her own rpg publishing company. |
| BARDOBARBAROS |
Posted - 17 Jan 2008 : 18:55:25
Wizards needs the MONEY my friends ...that's all!!!
where are all the great game designers of tsr???where is monte cook??where is margaret weiss??
old wonderful days!!!
I'm very disappointed!!!
but i will wait the release of 4th edition and then i will make my final judge!! |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 17 Jan 2008 : 17:55:06
quote:
Originally posted by Theophilus
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
If this continues to happen then this discussion belongs in Zhentil Keep not Candlekeep.
Hasn't Mace already initiated the Spellplaguedeath in the Keep?
I'm just waiting for the pre-Spellplagueanishad to be read out to the faithful!
Working on that one  |
| Kuje |
Posted - 17 Jan 2008 : 17:22:07
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Simply put, Lets debate the changes and their effects not each others feelings. We all have the right to feel how we do about this without being told how we should feel about them. If this continues to happen then this discussion belongs in Zhentil Keep not Candlekeep.
Heh, well said.
Exactly what I was saying the other day when I posted it in the 4e FR thread but people took offense about it. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 17 Jan 2008 : 15:29:24
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Simply put, Lets debate the changes and their effects not each others feelings. We all have the right to feel how we do about this without being told how we should feel about them. If this continues to happen then this discussion belongs in Zhentil Keep not Candlekeep.
Heh, well said. |
| Theophilus |
Posted - 17 Jan 2008 : 03:12:13
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
If this continues to happen then this discussion belongs in Zhentil Keep not Candlekeep.
Hasn't Mace already initiated the Spellplaguedeath in the Keep?
I'm just waiting for the pre-Spellplagueanishad to be read out to the faithful! |
| Markustay |
Posted - 17 Jan 2008 : 02:48:39
Well said. <bow>
Now is a time for Solidarity, not Disparity.
|
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 17 Jan 2008 : 01:51:36
It seems to me that the anger flares up when someone posts and tells us what we should think about the changes.
And Yes I have read more than enough to know that I do not like the changes.
I have stated my opinion that I hate the enormity of the changes.
I also hate the lack of logic and reasoning behind them.
But, I have never, ever told someone else that they should not like them. Or that they should like them.Or that they have not read enough to have valid opinion.Or that they are being alarmists.
Most everyone here is being genuine with their feelings do feel that strongly against and some for.
Seems like tempers flare when people call out others feelings and call them names trying to label them, thereby attempt to discredit their opposition to the changes. It feels like those few have an agenda and go out of their way to fan the flames.
I think we would have a much better discussion if the labeling, calling out individual opinions and lobbying for or against would stop and we just give our take on it. I know my scrolls are not meant as a personal affront to anyone or any "side" to this issue. They are just my thoughts.
Simply put, Lets debate the changes and their effects not each others feelings. We all have the right to feel how we do about this without being told how we should feel about them. If this continues to happen then this discussion belongs in Zhentil Keep not Candlekeep. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 16 Jan 2008 : 16:53:24
quote:
Originally posted by Haman
1) Do you really have enough information about 4th edition FR to make such a claim, or is it simple anger at what little you've seen so far?
I'm not one those people who is actively advocating a "boycott" of the 4E Realms setting. However, I HAVE seen enough so far to be turned off. For example, there's the death of Mystra and the deletion of the concept of her Chosen. Those are elements of the setting that are VERY important to me, and the decision to excise them from the Realms is mainly (from what I've gathered so far) to appease people who believe Mystra dominates the setting and is "all-powerful and all-good". So basically, that means the Realms is being shaped in such a manner for people who I would vehemently disagree with. I see no reason to accept changes in *my* Realms that weren't done to make me happy.
quote:
6) If the 104 year jump actually becomes fairly intriguing and the new Realms starts putting out quality material and imaginative sourcebooks, won't you look partly foolish ala chicken little?
Are you suggesting that it's a shameful thing to have a change of opinion? I disagree. I think it can be worse to simply decide not to have an opinion in the first place simply so you won't have to "eat your words" later.
As I've said before, this isn't a matter of life and death. No one's life is at stake based on whether or not people love or hate the new Realms. So who really cares if people are being "chicken little"? Believe it or not, most of us here, if not all of us, have a realistic perspective of things. Just because we get emotional about the Realms setting doesn't mean we think it's the most important thing in life (which, I have to admit, is what you seem to be suggesting at some points in your post). |
| Haman |
Posted - 16 Jan 2008 : 16:30:48
A decent rant, and one I almost agree with in its entirety.
On the matter of "simmer down people, wait and see" I whole-heartedly agree. Too much has yet to be revealed, and what has been revealed are mini-cliff notes, that the length some of the posters go with the drama and rants staggers me. But of course, that is their right and I totally back that. What you wish to say, however loud and flamey, is yours to say (as long as the mods don't cut it), and I might disagree with the post but not your right to say so.
Even the amount of personal involvement (I mean emotional) baffles me. I've played the Realms since the gray box came out, have every product they've published (save the Great Kahn game, durnit), and DO love it with a passion. But I check that at the door when another person speaks or yells, here or elsewhere, about the Realms. Not to toot my own horn (toot-toot), but so few of the people here seem to do so. Maybe that could be an issue? Maybe that could be where so much of the hostility/negative posts/emotional arguements stem from? Maybe. If we could all just take a breath, step back, and look at it rationally, then maybe everything wouldn't be so scarey, and maybe we could get some real philosophical and speculative debates going that could help each of us over the hurdles that 4th ed. is bringing our way. Don't get me wrong, over 99% of the topics on this board is mind-blowing and fantastic and riddled with amazing Realms discourse, I'm specifically talking about the 4th ed. rants and 4th ed. assumptive posts. Forgive me, Wooly, but that was the only thing I saw from your rant that struck me as queer. The last paragraph smacks too much of the little kid declaring "well...*sniffle*...I'm going to take my ball and go home". No, I'm NOT calling you a little kid (have to be so very careful around here sometimes...), I'm pointing out that maybe you got a little too emotionally involved in the 4th ed. mire. As with the board, over 99% of your posts is quality-stuff. Don't fall into that trap and cut yourself and others off of further, constructive discussions.
Then again, if this viewpoint of mine is ignored or argued with, so be it. Again, everyone is free to do what they please as long as it doesn't affect me directly. Go on with the rants and the arguements if you all wish, I'll stay mum and watch from the shadows.
Lastly, though it may not be the right place for it, I just wanted to throw out a few things I was thinking about when I saw the "I'm boycotting 4th edition FR" claims. To those people I wanted to ask a few simple questions: 1) Do you really have enough information about 4th edition FR to make such a claim, or is it simple anger at what little you've seen so far? 2) Could you not make a list of ridiculous happenings and events from 1st/2nd/3rd editions of FR D&D that would make the 4th edition preview material look pretty sane? ("Once around the Realms", anyone?) 3) Should the boycott actually work, do you think they'd revert it back to 1375DR and the Realms you love? 4) Again, should the boycott actually work and this time they simply kill off the Realms, wouldn't you be denying the few scraps and gems of true Realms lore that even the worst Accessory might still have? 5) Again, if the boycott worked and they killed the Realms, wouldn't WotC simply lay off most of the Realms authors and creators that helped shape the Realms you loved, thus sending them packing or shuffling them off to other systems? 6) If the 104 year jump actually becomes fairly intriguing and the new Realms starts putting out quality material and imaginative sourcebooks, won't you look partly foolish ala chicken little?
I had like 10 other things I could ask, but don't have the time...I think you all get my point. Hope this wasn't insulting in any way, it was not meant to be at all, and I wish you all the best.
Good Gaming! |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 16 Jan 2008 : 15:54:06
I, for one, like how the new rules are shaping up. However, my opinion of the 4E mechanics is seperate from my opinion of the 4E Realms setting.
I actually am amenable to the idea of rolling narrow, similar skills all into one skill. I see that as a benefit for players as well as DMs. Just my opinion. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 16 Jan 2008 : 10:48:29
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Reasons why I am optimistic and excited about the 4e Realms
Let me have some comments on this reply ... not meant personally and in no way shall it insult or offend.
quote:
1) Tons of new FR lore coming our way. I will use the lore I like and ignore the lore I don't care for, but some of it is bound to be good.
After my first post and the football remark, let me place another analogy: Tottenham Hotspur, a great team of the English Premier League spent tens of millions of pounds on really great footballers, people (you will probably never have heard of) like Berbatov, Robby Keane, Jenas, Defoe, or Malbranque. But while supporters have looked at the team line-up and started the season with high hopes, the team still does not perform above average level ... and has been for years.
I really hope that some of what will come our way is "bound to be good", but will the current "fanbase" consider "some" as being enough?
quote:
2) The new rules set sounds like it is going to be easier to learn, easier to play and adjudicate and easier for the DM to prepare. All around it sounds like a lot more fun.
That was the argument when 3E/RE was hitting the shelves. No doubt, it was considerably easier to learn than AD&D, but if we make all things easier, will we eventually end up with serving the e.g. videogamers' or Drizzt - comic factions, who want fun fast and easy? The 4E rules will not be that easy to learn either, but you have to wonder whether the 3E/RE rules-set was that (or more) difficult? Is there any reason to really believe that 4E gamers and DMs will not face problems with conflicting rules or rules conflicting with e.g. realistic descriptions? (E.g., if "Sneaking" is a replacement of Move Silently and Hide, would you Core hard rule any Move Silently or Hide attempt anywhere at every time with just one roll? A newby DM most likely would. Any decent DM worth his/her name would surely not. I'd assume they will give you detailed rules for Sneaking, but if they do that, it won't getting "much" easier, you'd just need one roll less ... wow.)
quote:
3) If the 4e Realms brings in a lot of new Realms fans, I look forward to meeting and discussing with them on the boards. It would not hurt us to have an influx of new ideas and views into our community.
Does it really? From what I gather (very subjective, I'll grant that) there is a lot of discontent among the "old" FRers on here (SIC!) and the WizBoards. It looks (!) like many FR-DMs and gamers look at the changes to the Realms with trepidation, me included. There is no doubt that the New Realms will draw new gamers over the coming years, every edition has. Yet, for most of that time there was no direct competition (no insult intended, Dragonlancers and Greyhawkers), now we have. Many FRers have "jumped ship" and found their new home in Eberron. Many new gamers have already started with Eberron (possibly via the Dragonshard game) and after all the High-level-NPC bashing that accompanies any debate on the Realms, no wonder about that. So while there is every chance that some new gamers may opt for the Realms, losing disgruntled old campaigners (Spellplague chaos et al) to teach the newbies is not that great an idea. Objectively (IMHO, of course), the New Realms will have a hard time winning over old customers, and an even harder time acquiring new customers, due to the fact the there's a competitor in the market.
quote:
4) If the influx of new Realms fans makes the Realms more financially stable and profitable, WotC can afford to commission new Realmslore far into the future. This will help ensure that our Realms will be safe and secure and continue publishing for a good long time.
Well, I for one really hope that the first "if" will become more than just wishful thinking.
quote:
5) If the Realms is more financially profitable, they can afford to commission more great works from our favorite authors like Ed Greenwood, Eric, Steven, Elaine, Tom, George, Brian and many other fine sages, maybe even pay them more to boot. I think that keeping the great Realmslore authors and designers happy and engaged with the setting can only be a good thing for us the fans, ensuring that we get to read more of the good stuff for a long time to come.
Again, a lot of if's and but's involved. I for one cannot see the New Realms hitting the ground off and running ... and thus being considered profitable. For if they don't, the whole scenario may very well turn pretty sour indeed. We'll really have to wait and see.
quote:
Sure I have a few fears and worries about the changes, but I am willing to withold judgment and wait to see what the team comes up with. In the long run I am hopeful that it will be a net positive, with more good lore on the horizon than bad.
Well, that is probably what we all hope for. Currently, the emotions run quite high and rightly so. Many people feel that much of the heart has been taken out of the Realms already, and that even before we know all the facts. It looks as if even the old hands are required to learn the setting anew from the off and forget about half of their knowledge. I am not sure how many will really want to do that, after decades of gaming.
In some ways, as I have said before, it feels like your football team's bosses decide that your time as a football team is over now, a new challenge (and greater profits) await on other shores. So we keep the name, scrap the football team and create a baseball side instead. We keep the stadium and the groundstaff and tell the supporters that we will be doing really well ... in the baseball league. Might ring a bit hollow in the former football team's supporters' ears?
Well, maybe Tymora will still be around come summer and smiles upon the Realms (or us) nonetheless ... |
| GRYPHON |
Posted - 16 Jan 2008 : 06:00:41
Well said, Wooly... |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 18:05:23
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Okay, I'm putting this here to avoid cluttering up the 4E FR thread.
Here's a bit of irony that hit me, tonight.
For years, many of us have railed against some of the mistaken opinions about the Realms. In particular, we have fought the idea that Elminster is Ed's Mary Sue, or that the Chosen are nothing more than the Justice League of the Realms, or that Mystra is a too-powerful goody-goody.
Who has held these opinions? People who have taken only the most cursory look at the Realms. And what has been our usual counter? That if the complainers truly examined the setting, if they took the time to really sit down and immerse themselves in it, then they would realize how wrong their misconceptions are.
So now we see some of the designers falling into that trap. And we complain that they don't understand the setting, that they've not taken the time to really learn what makes it tick and how it really operates... Or that they're changing things out of an unwillingness to learn the Realms.
And now, with the first official statement about what 4E FR is going to be like, what do some of us do? The same damn thing we've complained about others doing! We're still a good six months out from seeing the FRCG, but we see even long-time scribes taking a look at the most minute amounts of new information, and deciding they can't stand the setting.
I don't know whether to laugh, or cry, or applaud WotC for turning some of us into our own enemies. Either way, I'm done arguing about it. I've been told I'm insulting people for asking them not to stick their heads in the sand. I've been accused of being pro-4E. I ask people to be reasonable, and I get slammed for it. Screw it. Join the people you've complained about. I don't have the energy to fight it anymore.
-Clap, clap, clap. Well said Wooly!
Brimstone. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 08:40:17
Reasons why I am optimistic and excited about the 4e Realms
1) Tons of new FR lore coming our way. I will use the lore I like and ignore the lore I don't care for, but some of it is bound to be good.
2) The new rules set sounds like it is going to be easier to learn, easier to play and adjudicate and easier for the DM to prepare. All around it sounds like a lot more fun.
3) If the 4e Realms brings in a lot of new Realms fans, I look forward to meeting and discussing with them on the boards. It would not hurt us to have an influx of new ideas and views into our community.
4) If the influx of new Realms fans makes the Realms more financially stable and profitable, WotC can afford to commission new Realmslore far into the future. This will help ensure that our Realms will be safe and secure and continue publishing for a good long time.
5) If the Realms is more financially profitable, they can afford to commission more great works from our favorite authors like Ed Greenwood, Eric, Steven, Elaine, Tom, George, Brian and many other fine sages, maybe even pay them more to boot. I think that keeping the great Realmslore authors and designers happy and engaged with the setting can only be a good thing for us the fans, ensuring that we get to read more of the good stuff for a long time to come.
Sure I have a few fears and worries about the changes, but I am willing to withold judgment and wait to see what the team comes up with. In the long run I am hopeful that it will be a net positive, with more good lore on the horizon than bad.
|
| Edain Shadowstar |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 08:27:43
I suppose I am something of a late comer to this whole Fourth Edition mess, having only found out about the impending edition change as the result of an off-handed comment a friend made to me. As a result I have only recently become aware of the proverbial dissension in the ranks of the Forgotten Realms faithful that has led to some much woe and heart ache. This has, perhaps, left me with significantly cooler emotions in regards to the current manner discussion, having not had the opportunity to grow weary with it as of yet.
That having been said, while I agree making wholesale predictions of doom are certainly premature, I do not agree that there exists too little fact to form an opinion on the edition change, generally, and its effects on the Forgotten Realms, specifically. Many sweeping changes to the setting have been concretely revealed, and while the whole picture of the Fourth Edition Realms has not been displayed as of yet, it has left me, a veteran of past sweeping setting changes, with a sense of unease.
I suppose a great deal of this unease comes from the nature of some of these changes that have been revealed, the death of Mystra, a change in the nature of magic, the wholesale restructuring of pantheons and the dreaded "points of light" are indicative not merely of a structural or historical change in the setting. but of a tonal one. To explain, my fondness of the Realms is not predicated off the existence of an independent Sembia, a smaller Baldur's Gate, or even the continued reign of Mystra as goddess of magic. It is predicated off of the what all the elements of the Forgotten Realms combine to produce, a tone for the setting that makes it distinct and appealing, and what changes I have read leave me feeling that with Fourth Edition that the tone of the Realms will change and that I don't like.
And in the end that is what makes me more leery of this change than the Time of Troubles, which while having far reaching effects, did little to change to tone of the Realms. That having been said, no judgments are final on my part and I will, I assure you, strive to maintain a civil discourse in any matter I discuss. No matter what we each may be feeling at this time it is no excuse to behave inappropriately or in a manner which reflects poorly on the Candlekeep and Forgotten Realms communities or ourselves as individuals.
In closing I feel I must state my objection to a common counter claim to those cautioning optimism, that if you dislike the new Realms don't use them. Bluntly put, this has been true of Dungeons & Dragons as long as there has been Dungeons & Dragons, and while true is, I think, missing the point to some extent. While I can, and have, create my own world independent of published campaign settings or can adopt an official setting and develop it completely separately from further published material does not mean that the direction published material takes is not important. My Realms, like everyone's Realms, varies in some way from what is published in the books, but that does not mean that what is in said books is still not valuable and desired. Sure we can change it or disregard it, I often do, but I still value the published materials for the idea and concepts they offer, combining them with my ideas and the ideas of other gamers to produce the world I want to game in. Yes I can play D&D just fine without a new Cormyr sourcebook, but without it I may be missing some idea, story, concept, character, plot hook, something useful to expand and enrich my world, and if the designers choose to irrevocably alter to tone of the setting in such a way that is no longer congruent with my world then I have lost something valuable, another contribution from designer who have in the past produced fine material to enrich my experience. So, while I can operate independent of what is published, that does not mean I have no vested interest in trying to prevent that. I have been developing Greyhawk independent of any published materials for quite sometime now and it would break my heart if a day came when the Forgotten Realms joined it in that category.
So, I shall continue to reserve final judgment on this brave new world we are about to enter while remaining uneasy about its course. I hope that it turns out okay in the end, like the ending of a nice book where everyone gets taken on a harrowing ride and then back home to sit by the fire and wax poetic about the trials and tribulations of the whole thing. Hmm...I guess I am an optimist after all. |
| Wenin |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 04:20:10
Wooly your comparison is off for a few reasons.....
- The change from 3rd to 4th edition is far more reaching and world altering than the changes from 1st to 3rd. While we don't know all the specifics, we have the bullet points and those alone are huge.
- We know a little something about the current Realms, and major changes to that setting is what we have a problem with.
- If WoTC were to create a NEW setting with the Spellplague setting, some of us may have been more apt to play or examine the setting.
Our "enemies" have an issue of Ignorance of the Realms. Our issue is one of disliking the CHANGE, not Ignorance of what the Realms is being changed into. While we don't know all that is changing into, we do know enough and have been told in no uncertain terms that the change is large and significant.
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| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 03:09:01
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
Wooly, Iīm really with you. Today, I stay re-reading the "Countdown to the Realms", and thinking: what really is the problem?
Because, IMO, until now, the only real change is the death of Mystra.
Uh...no? |
| Chosen of Moradin |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 02:24:36
Only a sidenote: I will not migrate any of my current campaigns to the new rules, or the new setting. :)
Too many humans in my campaigns, and to many things happening under the 3.5 rules. |
| Chosen of Moradin |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 02:19:45
Wooly, Iīm really with you. Today, I stay re-reading the "Countdown to the Realms", and thinking: what really is the problem?
Because, IMO, until now, the only real change is the death of Mystra.
To me, Waterdeep is the same (and the Sword Coast, too). Yes, the Walking Statues go rampant. Yes, they already have do this in my campaings, so, whatīs the point? Baldurīs Gate is bigger. This donīt bother me,really. I never DMed in Baldurīs Gate, and never played there.
Netheril return! Really? In the 4th edition? I could swear that this happen in the Return of the Archwizard series, where stay clear that no one was capable to stop the shade princes. :)
So, Netheril return in the 3E! So, whatīs the point?
Cormyr continues being Cormyr. So, whatīs the point?
Sembia fall!! Like all my players will say: "Yaaaaaaaaaahoooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!"
And now, we have a new race tranplanted in Faerûn (dragonborn). This is outrageous!!! How could they do this?? Migrate a new race to the Realms(Someone hear saurials?)? This never happened in the Realms history(Someone hear Unther, Mulhorandi, elves, orcs...ad infintum???)!
So, really.... whatīs the point?
The "new Realms" is no more the Realms because... errr... ???
And Iīm with you, Wooly. This is the first, and the last time that I will post something about the 4E... I have other things that request my energy. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 00:55:29
I posted a bit of news in a thread of its own (this forum), and in the 4e FR thread.
I don't want to be one of those folks with his "head in the sand", but when the Writing is on the wall, I read it.
The setting is beginning to look like 'something' else... The Weave is gone, and we have the Shadowfell/Shadow Weave a'la Birthright's Shadow World taking it's place.
I deleted the original comment I had here - I enjoy being a member here too much to jeopardize that, and in the coming storm ahead, many people will need a safe port to abide in.
It's just not right, though... 
Sorry Wooly - I know how you feel; honest I do. I've been trying to be "the voice of reason" for the past few weeks now over at WotC, and telling everyone to 'wait and see'. The most recent announcements have just blown the wind out of my sails, though. Its hard to run 'damage control' for WotC, when they keep releasing material that is biting them in the a_s. |
| Wandering_mage |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 00:34:39
I love the realms even more after having been a part of Candlekeep. I think that should be a requirement for Realms gamers. It would really clear up a lot of the heresay and bad interpretations of the Realms. I had my player tell me a story about Elminster the other day that was totally off. He got it second hand from a friend of his and I doubt his friend actually read any of the Elminster books to say the least. Wooly, with 4th edition coming the Realms need heroes in it's players and it's Realms lorekeepers. Wooly, you are one of those heroes. Stay strong for the rest of us during this turbulent change. :) |
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