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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Dec 2022 : 16:22:02
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I have read what I have about the Netherese archwizards, but I would in no way consider myself an expert on them. I know that several of the other sages here have extensively studied them, and I would like to ask you a few questions to make sure my thoughts about them are correct.
1. The archwizard's opinion is that the only difference between them and the gods is the being's level of power. Was it the actual goal of the individual archwizards to achieve godhood? My understanding is that Karsus only cast his spell because of the apparent disappearance of Ioulaum and may not have cast it at all if that hadn't happened. Does that sound about right or was his goal divinity at any cost? Finally, outside of Karsus' momentary achievement, did any of the Netherese achieve godhood?
2. The archwizards were focused on creating new spells and adding to the general knowledge about magic. That takes research and that takes books. Has anything been said about the archwizard's libraries? Did they all have individual libraries or did each enclave have a shared, central library? Did they do book/knowledge sharing by exchanging copies of books between these libraries?
3. Besides enslaving gnomes for creating items, has anything been said about servants and the like? I believe one group made some undead as servants, but would they limit their staff to just humans or did they use other races? Additionally, just how much trust would they have in those servants, or would they only trust them if they had magically enforced their loyalty?
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"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2022 : 17:59:44
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Well this is all just my opinion so feel free to ignore or not.
I think desiring godhood is down to the individual, but the netherese never struck me as particularly devout. The archmages in particular we have evidence that they actually tried to distance themselves from the gods (the chronomancer), while others tried to integrate arcane and divine magic (synod). So perhaps some hated the gods or pitied them, while others viewed them as higher beings to generate, and others still almost certainly wanted to be gods.
Humans are always a mixed bag.
According to Jergal, lord of the end of everything, Jergal actually imbued a number of archmages with divinity in order to help him perform his ritual. The likes of Mystra of the Seven Stars, and that goddess from the Tunlands (cant remember her name) all achieved a measure of varying success in achieving full godhood from this demi/quasi divine beginning.
Bhaal could be argued as one of these as he was Netherese but was not an archmage (differs depending upon the version of the article you have).
To my mind, each enclave of netheril was an entirely separate kingdom, ruled over by the archmage who had absolute power. The archmage made his own laws. These kingdoms were loosely allied with netheril because they needed the resources of the land bound cities, and also because they all tried to emulate ioulaum who always tried to support the nation of Netheril. With that in mind I would say each enclave had it's own library. Sharing is possible but limited, archmages were rarely sane and not usually trusting, so there would be lots of bargaining, politics, theft, and murder between the enclaves for whatever they wanted from each other.
As for servants. Well apprentices were common, I believe they took apprentices so that someone else could do the dirty work of running the enclave and organising things while the archmages loaded it over everyone and tried to best their rivals.
When it come to more magical servants, the random lore snippets showed they had a wide variety of magical creations and enslaved beings, from shield guardians to Golems, to elemental, etc. Depending upon the era depends upon the servant, for example outer planar slaves would go out of fashion following the seven sigils war.
Again, just my thoughts. Not read my notes in a while. Might pick netheril up again one day. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2022 : 19:16:03
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Much like Gary says, this is my viewpoint. Also like you, I can't say I studied the original material heavily in the first place and have since gone back to study more with time.
My personal take on Karsus and the want to become a god involves some "looking around" at what was happening around them at that time. In theory, Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul were all making inroads to divinity. I place Mellifleur's rise to around this time as well. So, Karsus probably saw people becoming divine and said "I can do that".
My personal take on Mellifleur and later Velsharoon as well is that there was an original spellcaster that "became" Mellifleur, but that he wasn't KNOWN as Mellifleur at the time. The idea goes along with the illithid idea that "Mellifleur" didn't happen all at once, but that its happened repeatedly. In other words, someone was duping future liches into performing a variation of the lich ritual that would pull power from a god instilling power into a divine being. The being then gets its "consciousness" as a god overwritten by the "Mellifleur Collective". It may be that the original "Mellifleur" was an illithid and THIS is why illithids have such a hate for illithids that pursue arcane power. In this theory/story, it would be that the being that became Mellifleur in Toril drew his power either from the power Jergal was handing off to the dark three OR that it was from when Bane created his first Banelich (this is to match with the Monster Mythology lore that Bane was a god pursuing Mellifleur for stealing power).
I would have to look at my notes, but I believe there were a few other possibly mortals becoming gods around this time, as well as gods dying in cultures rivaling Netheril (i.e. the gods of Unther and Mulhorand). So, Karsus and others probably saw all this, including mortals becoming god-kings, and figured it was just another path to power.
Now later, in this idea, I then have the renegade red wizard, Velsharoon, using the Torilian Phylactery of Mellifleur (and several other items, such as some of the destroyed wand of orcus in melted blood form left behind from Gareth and company, blood from the stone of Karsus, the skull staff of the necromancer which serves as a vestige phylactery with the vestige of Karsus in it, etc... ) in his own contrived ritual to become a lich, with knowledge of what "Mellifleur" was doing.... and he manages to attain divinity, but he also unknowingly creates another Mellifleur.... and this is why we have conflicting stories of what "Velsharoon" is doing by serving Shar, Mystra, Talos, etc.... It might also be that the reason Orcus came back as Tenebrous is BECAUSE of these actions by Velsharoon using the blood of the destroyed wand of orcus (a side effect that was unexpected... my variation of Velsharoon is a triple classed character that's dread necromancer/wizard/binder with appropriate prestige classes to build all three, and he may have been bound to Karsus, "Orcus"/"Tenebrous", and others).
On Netheril and servants, if we use 5e lore, then magen were a form of created servant. I bet many used constructs. I don't think they enslaved many folk though. Far easier to just put fear into folk and let them manage themselves to do whatever the Netherese wanted without the need to oversee them (i.e. we'll be back, and you better have this ready for us). They did probably enchant some folks though to serve as a reminder of their ability to control them IF they didn't do what they wanted while they were away.. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
297 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2022 : 22:04:05
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Well, based on what I know:
1.No. The typical Netherize archwizard did not care or think much about gods at all. They mostly worshiped power and magic. Though technically "worshiping magic" is worshiping Mystrl as she IS the Weave(though not officially in D&D). The archwizards had plenty of arcane versions of divine spells, most notability healing spells. So they did not "need" divine magic (2E had a couple of these).
Karsus just wanted power. He wanted destroy the phaerimm and unite his people. Plus there was a well known fortune that "soon Mystrl would face her biggest challenge and the out come would somehow change Netherize magic forever." To put it simply, Karsus though he could do a better job then Mystrl....
I don't think any other Netherize ascended to godhood.
2.Each archwizard had a classic personal library. They did not "share" much in general....but then they did not need too. Archwizards could just cast the spell Copy Library or even Create Library, plus steal or absorb knowledge. Plus use divination to discover endless secrets.
A lot of the archwizards research was more "meta magical" so it was more casting magic then reading from books.
There are no public library's listed in Netheril , but they are rare in modern Realms too. The Vault of Sages in Silverymoon is said to have "every" Netherize book. Maybe Candlekeep has a couple.
3.The Netherize used gnomes early on, then dumped them. There were few humanoid slaves...technically...though most servants had some type of magic bondage. A typical archwizard had a large staff of mundane servants to do whatever they wanted done. I don't think undead use was widespread, but summoned, conjured and created servants were common.
The mythallars with quasi magic items made magic items common....so you can be sure each archwizard had a broom of sweeping, a rag of washing, and any other household type item you can think of.
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2390 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2022 : 01:20:16
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
1. The archwizard's opinion is that the only difference between them and the gods is the being's level of power. Was it the actual goal of the individual archwizards to achieve godhood?
Obviously no - they did not believe in "godhood".
Karsus did. Possibly in a roundabout way, out of hubris: if even he still does not approach this sort of abilities even on minimal scale, the difference must be more than quantitative.
Whether he would work toward this end is another question, but if he was not under this much pressure, at least he would not rush it. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2022 : 05:04:18
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It's worth noting that most netherese mages of the past probably did not simply cease to exist upon death, as most mortals with souls do not simply cease to exist upon death. The dead mages might have found themselves in divine realms of the Outer Planes, and as such a number of spells attributed to such mages could have been developed posthumously and carried by planar travelers back to the living realms.
Amaunator's divine realm, Selune's divine realm, and Mystra's divine realm might be among the safest to visit if one seeks audience with a mage from the ages of ancient Netheril.
For an existing repository of records from ancient Netheril, the enclave of Selunarra in the Gates of the Moon would be a potential destination. It was rescued by Selune during Karsus' Folly, pulled into her divine realm/plane before it could fall to the ground.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2022 : 15:57:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
As a complete aside i had a moment of madness regarding the Dawn to Dusk portfolio nonsense.
Jergal is a spellweaver and like insects with instars, a spellweaver undergoes a number of transformations (a bit like reincarnations) during their lifetime (Ecology of the Spellweaver).
Now Jergal tried to undo the great conjunction and restore the spellweaver race to life, and to do so he granted some measure of divinity to several archmages so that they could assist in his ritual. But at this point in time he did not relinquish all his power.
Fast forward several decades (or centuries, its not clear how long) and suddenly he gives away almost all his divine power to Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul. The question is why. Perhaps he gave up on restoring the spellweavers and so didnt want to be a god anymore (but why serve Myrkul and Cyric and Kelemvor for so long after).
What if Jergal sensed he was due a transformation, and so in an effort to try and avoid that event he wanted to give it to someone else. What if he tried to give something away that meant the inheritor transformed and he didnt. Myrkul may have been one of those recipients (which is why he liked being inside the crown of horns).
What if Amaunator was also one of those recipients Jergal traded power to. Following the end of Netheril, Amaunator's worship began to fade into nothing, when Seventon vanished that was pretty much the end for Amaunator. He might have been willing to accept some of Jergal's power regardless of the potential consequences in order to prolong his existence just a little longer.
Then when Amaunator finally dies he is reborn as Lathander thanks to Jergal's spellweaver heritage which he also passed onto Amaunator along with his power.
Just a thought.
The many "deaths" of sun gods in that millenium.... the canon fact that "Nergal" was not allowed to be buried in Untheric lands by Gilgeam, which hints that "Nergal" somehow betrayed said pantheon... did Jergal (who may have been Nergal) betray the Netherese pantheon? We have it that At'ar the yellow goddess, was cheating on her husband Kozah with "Cyric".... so presumably Myrkul or Jergal prior... but Kozah became Talos, etc... it almost makes me wonder if Jergal and Kozah weren't working in cahoots to take down Amaunator. If Nergal and Jergal are aspects of the same being and Talos has ties to Entropy and Gruumsh's avatar during the Orcgate Wars..... perhaps "Entropy the Godswallower" had more of an involvement with the death of the Untheric and/or Mulhorandi gods than we know. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2022 : 06:23:04
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Thank you all for your responses. So, to modify my first posting:
1. The archwizards were after increasing power and not to become gods themselves.
2. There were private libraries of various sizes owned by each wizard. Information was not generally shared except for certain exceptions (like the creation of mythallars).
3. Different archwizards had different ideas about the use of servants.
Does that sound about right?
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"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2390 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2022 : 15:31:02
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
1. The archwizards were after increasing power and not to become gods themselves.
For most part. The archwizards did anything they wanted unless deterred, their interests and attitudes ran in every direction, see (3). There were devout ones, and anything in between.
But the common attitude among them was that gods are a big racket, so most even refused divine magic for fear of being entrapped or "hamstrung".
quote:
2. There were private libraries of various sizes owned by each wizard. Information was not generally shared except for certain exceptions (like the creation of mythallars).
Even servants used cantrips. So, there was a body of "general" arcane lore, mostly whatever Ioulaum considered fit to make common lore, yes.
Plus common (low-level, thus less complex, thus often overlapping) results of digging into Scrolls and older things that changed hands too many times.
They generally guarded their secrets, but did not seem too greedy with relatively low-level lore. Innovations bring glory, and secrecy remains meaningful only until the next archwizard focuses research on the same area for a year, or peeks into the right Scroll.
So, most likely everything but the last and mightiest spells (those, only in great need) was eventually traded away little by little.
quote:
3. Different archwizards had different ideas about the use of servants.
Different archwizards had different ideas about anything and everything.
The entire point of enclaves is that they were fully sovereign domains, the ruling archwizard was not tied even to a single place.
Neteril was never a kingdom back before the Scrolls, it started as a confederation of seven villages. With Ioulaum gone and archwizards having their own enclaves, it became a very loose confederation. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Understanding the Netherese Archwizards
