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Doc Filth
Seeker
55 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Mar 2022 : 17:30:36
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There's been a discussion on a Facebook group that begins partly from the premise that elves are a type of fey, and continues with the argument that that they were already fey-descendant, even before whichever edition made them fey. I can't find any indication of this, or anything that supports it in the 3E core rules; wasn't the whole "fey connection" entirely manufactured for 4th (or even 5th) edition? Or have I overlooked something earlier?
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2022 : 18:27:27
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I mean, in Mein Alf (my nickname for THE COMPLETE BOOK OF ELVES), the elves were connected to the fae and had parties with them during 2nd Edition.
Mind you, the Fae as a separate thing is a relatively new thing since the monsters we traditionally associate with them weren't really divided from reality that way.
I remembered thinking this when they suddenly were in Ravenloft's Shadow Rift. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 14 Mar 2022 18:28:22 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1293 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2022 : 19:10:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I mean, in Mein Alf (my nickname for THE COMPLETE BOOK OF ELVES)
...? |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2022 : 20:04:12
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quote:
...?
The book has not really aged very well in its handling of things like race. For example, discussing how one drop of human blood forever will mark a elf as being half-elf and how they pity other races for their inferiority. It also unironically includes the story about drow skin color being the result of Corellon Lantheon's curse.
But it's really mostly a joking name about how overpowered elves are compared to humans and other races and superior in all respects.
"Elf metalwork being superior to dwarves in quality as well as beauty" was what finally did it for me. :) |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2022 : 20:13:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Filth
There's been a discussion on a Facebook group that begins partly from the premise that elves are a type of fey, and continues with the argument that that they were already fey-descendant, even before whichever edition made them fey. I can't find any indication of this, or anything that supports it in the 3E core rules; wasn't the whole "fey connection" entirely manufactured for 4th (or even 5th) edition? Or have I overlooked something earlier?
Elves can trace their heritage to the plane of Faerie, which some may argue is the same as the Feywild created in 4e. Others might disagree that they are one and the same, maintaining the notion that Faerie is a different plane from the Feywild altogether. Still, Elves did not originate on Abeir-Toril.
Elves received the creature type Fey in 4th Edition, as they can trace their lineage to the Feywild. This really had little mechanical application so you could've just as easily ignored it with no difference.
5th Edition kept 4e lore, maintaining that the hedge Fey ancestry (as noted in their description) but were Natural Humanoids with the Elven subtype. |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
214 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2022 : 23:27:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I mean, in Mein Alf (my nickname for THE COMPLETE BOOK OF ELVES)
...?
I've never read it, but The Complete Book of Elves is notorious for the fictional author's racist tone (that is, the fictional author considers elves to be superior to the other races). "Mein Alf" is probably a play on "Mein Kampf." |
Edited by - HighOne on 14 Mar 2022 23:46:04 |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
214 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2022 : 23:45:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Filth
There's been a discussion on a Facebook group that begins partly from the premise that elves are a type of fey, and continues with the argument that that they were already fey-descendant, even before whichever edition made them fey. I can't find any indication of this, or anything that supports it in the 3E core rules; wasn't the whole "fey connection" entirely manufactured for 4th (or even 5th) edition? Or have I overlooked something earlier?
I think you're right that D&D elves didn't officially become fey (or fae) until 4th Edition. That's because they were based exclusively on Tolkien's elves to begin with. But in folklore, elves have always had a fey connection, and many of D&D's other literary inspirations make this connection clear (see Lord Dunsany, for example, who is listed in the original Appendix N). 4th Edition was sort of an attempt to reconcile these two different conceptions of elves, the folkloric and the Tolkienian. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 00:32:55
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quote:
I've never read it, but The Complete Book of Elves is notorious for the fictional author's racist tone (that is, the fictional author considers elves to be superior to the other races). "Mein Alf" is probably a play on "Mein Kampf."
Indeed. Mind you, I loved the book at 14 and thought elves were the shit.
:) |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1293 Posts |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 00:54:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
I've never read it, but The Complete Book of Elves is notorious for the fictional author's racist tone (that is, the fictional author considers elves to be superior to the other races). "Mein Alf" is probably a play on "Mein Kampf."
Indeed. Mind you, I loved the book at 14 and thought elves were the shit.
:)
I beg your pardon. Elves were NEVER excrement. Sanctimonious, self-aggrandizing blowhards, yes. But never excrement. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 01:11:56
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People who enjoy The Complete Book of Elves are not racist.
Against who? Elves?
I freely admit being prejudiced against the flowery hippies and snooty blood supremacists.
DEATH TO THE ELVES!
(Is dwarf in real life) |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 15 Mar 2022 01:12:32 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 02:49:56
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In 2E, PHBR8: Complete Book of Elves hinted that elves were fey, as a category.
Numerous 2E Monstrous Compendium supplements and compilations (especially those related to Planescape) - along with encounter tables in all the rulebooks - strongly associated elves with fey.
Ancient Empires: Cormanthyr made it pretty clear that elves were fey.
In 3E, Evermeet basically introduced connections to what 4E called the Feywild (the concept basically already existed in some game products and novels, it just didn't have a proper name yet, usually described as "a realm of Arvandor" or somesuch). 3E also brought much popularity to elven mythology, the Seldarine, etc - ironically in a way which almost seemed like supplementary background for all the dark elf (and daemonfey) lore which kept fascinating so many people. Most importantly, 3E introduced the "Fey" monster/creature template and applied it to some varieties of elves. I think "Fey Elf" subtypes were even part of the d20 SRD. They certainly seemed common enough in 3.5E.
4E defined the Feywild. Along with Eladrin. And a very definite statement that elves of all worlds were descended from fey origins, even if their fey blood was somewhat diluted across untold ages. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 15 Mar 2022 02:54:54 |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 08:50:30
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To which 5e adds Fey Ancestry to the Elf tag, as well as adding that tag to goblins in the new Mortenkainen's.
Fey Ancestry:
You have advantage on saving throws against being charmed, and magic can't put you to sleep. |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
T_P_T |
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maransreth
Learned Scribe
Australia
157 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 09:39:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
4E defined the Feywild. Along with Eladrin. And a very definite statement that elves of all worlds were descended from fey origins, even if their fey blood was somewhat diluted across untold ages.
Not to be mixed up with 2e Planescape's eladrin race.  |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1479 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 14:18:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
People who enjoy The Complete Book of Elves are not racist.
I know, right? Imagine thinking that a pointy-earned flower-picking pansy was in any way superior to a proper dwarf. They can't even grow beards! |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1293 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 16:06:51
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| Jest all you like, but I've noticed people accused of harboring real-world racist sentiments because of their affinity for old-school elves (which more-or-less includes them as described in The Complete Book of Elves) and because they feature orcs/goblins plus the rogues' gallery of monstrous humanoids as unambiguously evil. It may be amusing to witness at a distance, but when someone is given a hard time for their escapist preferences...that's annoying. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
Edited by - Azar on 15 Mar 2022 16:47:14 |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
214 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 16:34:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Jest all you like, but I've noticed people accused of harboring real-world racist sentiments because of their affinity for old-school elves (which more-or-less includes them as described in The Complete Book of Elves) and because they feature orcs/goblins plus the rogues' gallery of monstrous humanoids as unambiguously evil. It's may be amusing to witness at a distance, but when someone is given a hard time for their escapist preferences...that's annoying.
Agreed. One of the hardest parts of coming back to D&D in 2016 after a nearly 20-year break was adjusting to all the real-world politics and social dynamics that people wanted to inject into the game. I get the sense that people today have lost all touch with medieval mores. It's not that they dislike and reject concepts like chivalry, serfdom, and feudalism, it's that they genuinely have no knowledge or understanding of these things and how they work. So much knowledge has passed out of the world in the past 20 or 30 years it's frightening. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1293 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 16:53:43
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quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Jest all you like, but I've noticed people accused of harboring real-world racist sentiments because of their affinity for old-school elves (which more-or-less includes them as described in The Complete Book of Elves) and because they feature orcs/goblins plus the rogues' gallery of monstrous humanoids as unambiguously evil. It's may be amusing to witness at a distance, but when someone is given a hard time for their escapist preferences...that's annoying.
Agreed. One of the hardest parts of coming back to D&D in 2016 after a nearly 20-year break was adjusting to all the real-world politics and social dynamics that people wanted to inject into the game. I get the sense that people today have lost all touch with medieval mores. It's not that they dislike and reject concepts like chivalry, serfdom, and feudalism, it's that they genuinely have no knowledge or understanding of these things and how they work. So much knowledge has passed out of the world in the past 20 or 30 years it's frightening.
At the end of the day, I get it: no one should be forced to play in a game that rubs them the wrong way. By the same token, however, no one should be insulted or harassed because their make-believe doesn't smoothly align with contemporary morals. Supporting monarchies? Ransacking labyrinthine tombs? Sleeping in primeval forests/ruins? Regularly heading into battle? My characters and I don't have everything in common  . |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 18:51:23
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quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Jest all you like, but I've noticed people accused of harboring real-world racist sentiments because of their affinity for old-school elves (which more-or-less includes them as described in The Complete Book of Elves) and because they feature orcs/goblins plus the rogues' gallery of monstrous humanoids as unambiguously evil. It's may be amusing to witness at a distance, but when someone is given a hard time for their escapist preferences...that's annoying.
Agreed. One of the hardest parts of coming back to D&D in 2016 after a nearly 20-year break was adjusting to all the real-world politics and social dynamics that people wanted to inject into the game. I get the sense that people today have lost all touch with medieval mores. It's not that they dislike and reject concepts like chivalry, serfdom, and feudalism, it's that they genuinely have no knowledge or understanding of these things and how they work. So much knowledge has passed out of the world in the past 20 or 30 years it's frightening.
It's not that this knowledge has passed out of the world, it's that a lot of it was never relevant to this fictitious setting. The Realms is not and never has been the real world. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 19:33:58
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quote:
Jest all you like, but I've noticed people accused of harboring real-world racist sentiments because of their affinity for old-school elves (which more-or-less includes them as described in The Complete Book of Elves) and because they feature orcs/goblins plus the rogues' gallery of monstrous humanoids as unambiguously evil. It may be amusing to witness at a distance, but when someone is given a hard time for their escapist preferences...that's annoying.
Dissenting Opinion
I'm going to go against the grain of the responses so far and point out that this isn't new actually. It's ridiculous making statements that thinking orcs should be one-dimensional evil or elves should be a superior bunch of beings means real racism. Whenever someone brings that up, I state that it is triviliazing RL racism and that is usually the end of the conversation.
However, speaking as a fellow fantasy author, I remember back in the early days of the internet that people thought that while it wasn't harboring RL Racism--it was bad storytelling. As early as the motherfrigging KEEP ON THE BORDERLANDS there have been in-and-out of universe fights about slaughtering kobold pups.
Half-Orcs were meant to be tragic characters as early as First Edition. Half-Elves being subject to immense discrimination was the subject of Tanis Half-Elven. You know, the main character of Dragonlance from the Eighties well before Drizzt. Racism, genocide, and real world parallels have been part of Dungeons and Dragons storytelling since the very beginning.
My all-time favorite Realms books are the Arilyn Moonblade books. Which work slightly better than the Drizzt Do'Urden books because Arilyn's half-elf status is still given all manner of shit by the Gold elves (and Moon Elves too for that matter) even though she's NOT descended from a race of fascist underground matriarchal Melnibones.
It's just racism.
And the Complete Book of Elves had a LOT of racism against non-elves, which is utterly irrelevant to RL racism but still pretty despicable in-universe.
I think it's perfectly good storytelling to have elves treated as having "blood purity" as a bullshit thing they do and getting appropriate amounts of sideeye.
quote:
Agreed. One of the hardest parts of coming back to D&D in 2016 after a nearly 20-year break was adjusting to all the real-world politics and social dynamics that people wanted to inject into the game. I get the sense that people today have lost all touch with medieval mores. It's not that they dislike and reject concepts like chivalry, serfdom, and feudalism, it's that they genuinely have no knowledge or understanding of these things and how they work. So much knowledge has passed out of the world in the past 20 or 30 years it's frightening.
Dissenting Opinion 2#
The Forgotten Realms has always been more progressive than the real world.
Ed Greenwood, our setting's father, hallowed be his forum posts, was an RL hippie and created the Forgotten Realms to be a sexism free setting with a sex positive, gay friendly, and cosmpolitian mix of RL races decades before this became a call for in fantasy. It was TSR who dramatically toned down his artistic vision where men, women, blacks, Asians, gays, poly couples, and so on all worked together to slay orcs.
It's why I'd love an adult version of Ed's original ideas for the world. Maybe even someone to interview him and write-up his artistic vision and what he thinks of everything as it "should" be for college and above people. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 15 Mar 2022 19:42:28 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1293 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 20:05:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
However, speaking as a fellow fantasy author, I remember back in the early days of the internet that people thought that while it wasn't harboring RL Racism--it was bad storytelling. As early as the motherfrigging KEEP ON THE BORDERLANDS there have been in-and-out of universe fights about slaughtering kobold pups.
Half-Orcs were meant to be tragic characters as early as First Edition. Half-Elves being subject to immense discrimination was the subject of Tanis Half-Elven. You know, the main character of Dragonlance from the Eighties well before Drizzt. Racism, genocide, and real world parallels have been part of Dungeons and Dragons storytelling since the very beginning.
My all-time favorite Realms books are the Arilyn Moonblade books. Which work slightly better than the Drizzt Do'Urden books because Arilyn's half-elf status is still given all manner of shit by the Gold elves (and Moon Elves too for that matter) even though she's NOT descended from a race of fascist underground matriarchal Melnibones.
It's just racism.
And the Complete Book of Elves had a LOT of racism against non-elves, which is utterly irrelevant to RL racism but still pretty despicable in-universe.
I think it's perfectly good storytelling to have elves treated as having "blood purity" as a bullshit thing they do and getting appropriate amounts of sideeye.
Charles, the purported strength/weakness of story in a tabletop roleplaying game will always take second place to the fun factor. If a story facilitates fun because the players are able to balance the narrative with their need for freedom, great, but a story sufficiently intricate or murky in its morality to the point where it hinders immersion is ultimately unnecessary (it may be fantastic for a novel, but poor for those precious two or so hours a week). You can have your black, white and grey morality in the same tabletop campaign and on a long enough timeline, the tone can shift between deadly serious and utterly comedic.
Incidentally, I'd like to point out that superiority is relative; if - compared to another species - you lived at least ten times longer, possessed superior vision not to mention hearing, were noticeably more agile, carried an innate talent for magic and only suffered a bit in the hardiness department, you too might feel slightly supercilious. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
Edited by - Azar on 15 Mar 2022 20:46:35 |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
214 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 20:24:32
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Agreed on FR and its mores; but I never said I was DMing FR, did I?
That said, it's not just social history that is passing out of the world. It's everything else too. Architecture, clothing, living spaces, weapons, armor -- find me a player today whose vocabulary includes things like vambraces, greaves, kirtles, wattle and daub, mullions, postern gates, curtain walls, rounceys, caparisons, crenellations, garderobes, and so on. A lot of old adventures mentioned things like these, but not so much today. Armor is just armor, dresses are just dresses, and castles are just big stone buildings. Pre-industrial society and technology is becoming more and more obscure to people today. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 21:01:36
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quote:
Charles, the purported strength/weakness of story in a tabletop roleplaying game will always take second place to the fun factor. If a story facilitates fun because the players are able to balance the narrative with their need for freedom, great, but a story sufficiently intricate or murky in its morality to the point where it hinders immersion is ultimately unnecessary (it may be fantastic for a novel, but poor for those precious two or so hours a week). You can have your black, white and grey morality in the same tabletop campaign and on a long enough timeline, the tone can shift between deadly serious and utterly comedic.
I think it may be the fact that I come from an author's perspective after decades of gamplay but I have come to deal with a lot of people complaining about progressive material in books and storytelling to the point I'm automatically suspicious. I think of "those people" as the worst sort of fans and it inclines me to think they are attempting to interfere with the artistry of storytelling from the creator.
I'm sure the other side of things exists and I remember the controversy over THE BLACK WITCH where a poor YA author was writing a Harry Potter esque story, except from the perspective of a Slytherin typed privilege girl who gradually discovers that GASP, racism against monsters is wrong. She got shouted down and torn apart because the leftist crowd thought she was promoting bigotry. Bigotry...against frigging fairytale creatures.
https://www.vulture.com/2017/08/the-toxic-drama-of-ya-twitter.html
Toxic fandom sucks, believe me.
However, for me, I was strongly influenced by the writings of RA Salvatore growing up. Weird as it may sound, my favorite part of his books is Drizzts' ridiculous journals where he muses on life, the universe, and everything. I feel that a fantasy work meant for FUN can only benefit from the author also having something meaningful to say.
quote:
Incidentally, I'd like to point out that superiority is relative; if - compared to another species - you lived at least ten times longer, possessed superior vision not to mention hearing, were noticeably more agile, carried an innate talent for magic and only suffered a bit in the hardiness department, you too might feel slightly supercilious.
I think its always good to remember that the Lord of the Rings, where a lot of elf tropes come from (no shit, sherlock, I know), made it a point that people miss if they're only familiar with the Jackson movies. The Hobbits aren't even very long lived, powerful, and heroic compared to MEN (at least Numenoreans) let alone elves but the universe rests on their shoulders. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 15 Mar 2022 21:03:20 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2022 : 01:18:02
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Complete Book of Elves is racist?
There are also Complete Book of Dwarves, Complete Book of Gnomes & Halflings, Complete Book of Humanoids, libraries of stuff about drow, orcs, giants, dragons, fiends ...
Yet there is nothing like a Complete Book of Humans. That's racist. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2022 : 14:44:09
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| -That's one thing I liked about the 4e rules, was making a little bit more of a distinction between "Fey Elves" and...less "Fey Elves". Sun Elves and Moon Elves being a bit more high fantasy magic inclined than Wood Elves. They created massive unnecessary confusion by using the term "Eladrin" and I think they went a little too far, but it was nice to see a little more blatant injection of magic. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1479 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2022 : 00:14:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Complete Book of Elves is racist?
There are also Complete Book of Dwarves, Complete Book of Gnomes & Halflings, Complete Book of Humanoids, libraries of stuff about drow, orcs, giants, dragons, fiends ...
Yet there is nothing like a Complete Book of Humans. That's racist.
Humans already know that they're awesome, they don't need to broadcast it from every rooftop in Waterdeep. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2022 : 00:54:30
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quote:
Originally posted by maransreth
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
4E defined the Feywild. Along with Eladrin. And a very definite statement that elves of all worlds were descended from fey origins, even if their fey blood was somewhat diluted across untold ages.
Not to be mixed up with 2e Planescape's eladrin race.
Agreed. Though 4E gave 2E tieflings an even worse disservice. (Although, to be fair, some novel tie-ins and other efforts did attempt to provide some sort of "plausible" explanation for this.)
My main apprehension about 4E eladrin is that they just weren't necessary. The distinctions between elves and eladrin were supposedly significant, their backstories and origins divergent, their rules and powers given some thematic differences. But in the end these eladrin were basically just another variety of pointy-eared elves, they stood apart from the other elf species but not by enough to really justify an entirely new demihuman race category. Redundant, uninspired, uninteresting. Elf vs Not-Elf - along with Half-Elf, etc - perhaps it's just my anti-elf bias showing through but I'd rather they'd devoted those pages towards something different enough to be considered an entirely separate player race.
No explanation was ever given for 2E-style eladrin. I suppose they'd be eladrin-elves with a Planetouched or Celestial template. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Since when have elves been connected to the fey?
