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Quickleaf
Seeker
99 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Feb 2022 : 11:03:27
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I was curious why Lolth orchestrated the events of Out of the Abyss, where the big demon lords were banished into the Underdark?
While I'm familiar with Out of the Abyss and the tabletop side of things, there doesn't appear to be a clear answer as to Lolth's motives.
I was wondering if anyone familiar with the R.A. Salvatore "Homecoming" series, specifically the ones taking place after Out of the Abyss – Maestro and Hero – could shine a light on why Lolth did this?
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2022 : 12:50:17
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I won't say its the greatest idea in the world, and I haven't read the RAS novels, but last month we were kind of discussing this
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24268&SearchTerms=lolth
One of the things you'll see me wondering about at the bottom is if the idea may not have been that she was attempting to copy an abyssal layer like she did before, but since her divine domain went BACK to the abyss after the spellplague, she just may have been trying to free it again or somesuch. For that matter, what exactly were the effects on Lolth as well due to the spellplague.... did her other aspects fade away... did she get "copied" such that there's a Lolth out there that's different from the one in the abyss now?
Honestly though, that's just me trying to put a fix on something that should have been more thoroughly thought through from the get go. At times it does get tiring trying to band aid these things because they create half-baked plots that fit better for Saturday morning cartoon shows when I was a kid. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 23 Feb 2022 12:52:38 |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2022 : 12:51:53
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She wanted to gain more influence, as far as I understand it. She always wants to gain more influence. To claim the standing she thinks she deserves. By replacing all the then-current demon lords with her own spawn, she believed that she would be able to put herself into a position to rise to a Greater Power in the multiverse and unchallenged mastery of the Abyss as an entire plane, similar to what she sees Asmodeus (for example) as holding over the Nine Hells.
In reality I think that it would have been a disaster. Not only is there no guarantee that her spawn would even be capable of forcing the Abyss to acknowledge them as demon lords, simply removing a dozen or so of the lords, albeit some of the strongest among them, won't do squat against the hundreds and hundreds of other layers, many with their own lords. And then there's the Blood War, and the fact that there are things in the Abyss far older than Lolth. (There are things in the Abyss that pre-date the Outer Planes themselves...)
Cutting to the chase, I think it was doomed to fail, and while showing Lolth's lust for power and station, also showed why she's destined for failure. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2022 : 15:03:07
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The long and the short of it is bad writing IMO. Releasing numerous demon lords into a single environment should have been an apocalyptic event on Toril, and it *should* have meant the end of Lolth when the Demon Lords got back. The fact that the logical repercussions for such an event were basically swept aside and ignored says a lot-they probably just didn't matter. Out of universe, the best explanation I can take a jab at would be that its purpose was to puff up Drizzt as the big savior of Menzoberranzan/the drow?
Regardless, at the end of the day, just another in a long string of plots in which the supposedly intelligent master schemer and manipulator Lolth devises and completely fails to execute a plot that even a child could see the holes in. The Spider Queen really needs to run her plans past a second party. Or get better writers. |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
890 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2022 : 22:08:40
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| How much came from top-down executive decisions at WoTC/Hasbro in terms of cash grabs? |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2022 : 01:13:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
How much came from top-down executive decisions at WoTC/Hasbro in terms of cash grabs?
Probably none.... that's too easy... a boss can still tell you that they want something involving demon lords and you come up with a plot that's more believable. They just needed to work at the foundation more. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2022 : 22:03:11
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quote:
Originally posted by TKU
The long and the short of it is bad writing IMO. Releasing numerous demon lords into a single environment should have been an apocalyptic event on Toril, and it *should* have meant the end of Lolth when the Demon Lords got back. The fact that the logical repercussions for such an event were basically swept aside and ignored says a lot-they probably just didn't matter. Out of universe, the best explanation I can take a jab at would be that its purpose was to puff up Drizzt as the big savior of Menzoberranzan/the drow?
Regardless, at the end of the day, just another in a long string of plots in which the supposedly intelligent master schemer and manipulator Lolth devises and completely fails to execute a plot that even a child could see the holes in. The Spider Queen really needs to run her plans past a second party. Or get better writers.
Without their vast armies summoned along with them, the Demon Lords' immediate capability to wreak havoc is limited.
The demons, unlike the devils, are not held together in a tight hierarchy system, so they fight each other as much as they cooperate to fight the devils.
Getting summoned to the Material Plane is no big risk for a Demon Lord since they'll still live even if killed.
A typical Demon Lord is tens of thousands of years old so one unusual romp into another plane is just another day in their immortal existence.
Lolth benefits from being able to do stuff in the Abyss without interference from the Demon Lords, including the sending out of spies to infiltrate the other Demon Lords' realms.
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Edited by - Storyteller Hero on 24 Feb 2022 22:03:49 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2022 : 02:30:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
Lolth benefits from being able to do stuff in the Abyss without interference from the Demon Lords, including the sending out of spies to infiltrate the other Demon Lords' realms.
Not really -- and that wasn't her plan, anyway. She wanted to replace them, not simply get them out of the way for a bit.
And it wouldn't really benefit her to simply sideline them for a time, because once they get home, they're going to want to know what she was doing, and they're likely to active work against her, even if they hadn't before, because of her actions.
Really, the whole plot is even more nonsensical than the War of the Spider Queen was. |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2022 : 04:28:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
quote:
Originally posted by TKU
The long and the short of it is bad writing IMO. Releasing numerous demon lords into a single environment should have been an apocalyptic event on Toril, and it *should* have meant the end of Lolth when the Demon Lords got back. The fact that the logical repercussions for such an event were basically swept aside and ignored says a lot-they probably just didn't matter. Out of universe, the best explanation I can take a jab at would be that its purpose was to puff up Drizzt as the big savior of Menzoberranzan/the drow?
Regardless, at the end of the day, just another in a long string of plots in which the supposedly intelligent master schemer and manipulator Lolth devises and completely fails to execute a plot that even a child could see the holes in. The Spider Queen really needs to run her plans past a second party. Or get better writers.
Without their vast armies summoned along with them, the Demon Lords' immediate capability to wreak havoc is limited.
The demons, unlike the devils, are not held together in a tight hierarchy system, so they fight each other as much as they cooperate to fight the devils.
Getting summoned to the Material Plane is no big risk for a Demon Lord since they'll still live even if killed.
A typical Demon Lord is tens of thousands of years old so one unusual romp into another plane is just another day in their immortal existence.
Lolth benefits from being able to do stuff in the Abyss without interference from the Demon Lords, including the sending out of spies to infiltrate the other Demon Lords' realms.
This was my take-away after spending over five years on this forum since 2016 tackling this very issue. A lot comes down to 5e's OldSchoolRen references. The secret "Lolth is the one behind the scenes" is to me just an homage to that one very lengthy module series in AD&D. Spoilers for whichever series ends with fighting her or her avatar. Hah. I have personal takes on every demon lord except the Spider herself. It is probably going to be that for many DMs either the player characters close off the adventure shaking their fist at her and retiring after saving/??? the world, or the players themselves begin crafting elaborate excuses for why she did what she did and what they should do about her. The DM can pick one theory they mention and just secretly make it the next arc.
In the least words possible, Lolth manipulated Gromph Baenrae's spell which was assumed to be a ritual of binding on one of any of the eight Demon Lords, probably Demogorgon though. The power source (since the Demon Weave was recently absorbed into the slowly returning Mystra very recently in the adventure) was not to be any known kind of Drow Elven High Magic sacrifice shenanigans- like the murder spell I recall being used to access Dweomerheart. Lolth I'd bet indirectly influenced Gromph to become convinced of this nonsense conspiracy theory that the Faerzress has an origin in Elven High Magic and that he should use it. And because Chris Perkins wanted Alice in Wonderland, this meant that 'madness' spread from the abyssal spell into Faerzress and started spreading 'madness' through the underdark while the presence of the Demon Lords multiplies Demon numbers everywhere they go.
Graz'zt has an adventure set in the Sword Coast, For Duty and Diety and took part in a recent war with some Abeir peoples or something. He's one of the few Lords in the adventure that I'd expect to be able to use his given Teleports each day to get around to treasure caches he has held onto since the Time of Troubles scattered across the world. Orcus I'd imagine would instead only think about Narfel and would head North-East under Ascore on the Road of Bones east under the whole of Anauroch to try and fight their way to the Throne. Whereas Graz'zt is playing "cult-tycoon" across the planet you have Orcus playing a massive RTS on-the-move survival game with his 500 hit points of undead a day and likely knowing if he doesn't hurry, some punk adventurer is going to find a way to ruin the plan (which is what the Heart macguffin does by attracting every Lord to a location, save for Graz'zt probably). Yeenoghu and Baphomet fight underneath Triboar in the deep dwarven tunnels. I find it funny that there is a town not far from the surface above the "Spiral of the Horned King" that believes in an unseen mysterious nature god who communicates through great beasts in a sacred wood. I can see Baphomet and Dominate Beast starting some mayhem on the Surface. Actually, there is a dropped plot thread in the Shadow Paths portal series that ties ancient dwarves to a Baphomet Temple beneath the Greypeak Mountains. I think once Baphomet realizes that his rival is trapped here with him, he might 'craft the ultimate weapon to kill him with' only trying to actively teleport to his rival's location once he's made the power gap more significant since he already had humanoid followers waiting for his return for thousands of years.
Juiblex, well, if you're playing this adventure and haven't quite hit the Second Sundering's finale, then Portfolios of the Divines still work like they have always worked. You can steal some, and the gods are really not-very-present right now like they used to be. Juiblex could travel south into the great 4th edition black-spot of a chasm into the Oozing Ruin and claim a Divine Shard of a very similar being's essence on this plane. With that, he could probably create miracles and would actively divine and sabotage and hunt their immediate threat from Zuggytmoy's marraige plans- once she learns about the Core from corrupted Myconids.
Fraz Urbluu is the only one I don't see as having anything here for him to go find. He has a claim to the same area as Orcus, but can't compete with him being stuck in a gem. F U has lost his lair multiple times and has a terrifying Worm rival on his lair that he really doesn't want to break out. F U is the one guy asking anyone who makes their save when touching his gem to "pleeeeeeaase let me out". Which is, again, a call-back to his origin story as Lolth's role is a callback to her own first adventure. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2022 : 12:30:37
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| I'd really have to go look at the source material more, but perhaps one way to spin it would be that Lolth simply got the ritual wrong. Maybe she was essentially trying to perform the same ritual which fused the hidden layer of the abyss to Toril (i.e. Eltab's layer) in order to trap a single lord, only to find out that they'd put something in place to prevent that being done to them which triggers something on other layers. Having her mess up works much better as a plot than "this is what she wanted". Maybe even the warding put in place to prevent that spell taking place and sucking a layer from the abyss drags other lords out to purposefully make the other lords draw their ire into figure out who was trying to do that to one of their fellow lords (because let's face it... if say Lolth had actually been targeting Orcus with this threat, and Orcus had forced it to eject all these lords... who is to say that she wouldn't immediately turn around and target those other lords had she been successful). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2022 : 03:34:28
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'd really have to go look at the source material more, but perhaps one way to spin it would be that Lolth simply got the ritual wrong. Maybe she was essentially trying to perform the same ritual which fused the hidden layer of the abyss to Toril (i.e. Eltab's layer) in order to trap a single lord, only to find out that they'd put something in place to prevent that being done to them which triggers something on other layers.
I don't think Lolth or Gromph knew that the spell would turn a trans-continental energy network into a conduit for 'madness'. Also, the spell going wrong immediately causes great distress and ruin in the City of Spiders where a giant rift expands and Demogorgon cleaves through the districts like a Kaiju. I would imagine that the Drow struggling to flee with Faerzress nullifying teleportation within the main cavern. Ironic that they had used that as a defense for centuries, and now what, they can't even misty step away from a collapsing building? Lolth would have surely enjoyed screwing over the Drow there as she always does iirc. Though, I don't think Gromph is supposed to have known Lolth was influencing him. THIS makes me think she simply got the right books to him and floated the right false-truths about the nature of Faerzress, Drow, the underdark, and the Abyss. Namely, the specific items listed in his final boss room in the adventure. "The Book of The Eight"
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Having her mess up works much better as a plot than "this is what she wanted".
She certainly didn't want some Wizard of The Elder Elemental Eye (another one of Fifth Edition's underlying narratives that never did more than slumber in the background..) to craft an artifact that somehow brings some number of Demon Lords to a specific point to all weaken one another enough to be sent home, conveniently returning to the abyss against their own will in under a year or two. Vizeran is a strange recurring Fifth Edition character.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Maybe even the warding put in place to prevent that spell taking place and sucking a layer from the abyss drags other lords out to purposefully make the other lords draw their ire into figure out who was trying to do that to one of their fellow lords (because let's face it... if say Lolth had actually been targeting Orcus with this threat, and Orcus had forced it to eject all these lords... who is to say that she wouldn't immediately turn around and target those other lords had she been successful).
Imagine the wars on the Abyss during this cosmically brief period. I already mentioned Fraz Urbluu's lair. Without their Lord, it's just a bunch of tiny fake houses and communities with fiends trying to keep the many charades up enough on their own- all while a mountain in the distance rumbles with the growing boldness of a worm-lord. Then there is the layer of Orcus which must be such an absolute mess. Graz'zt has a named character iirc who rules as his regent when the Dark Prince is gone, so they're probably used to this working out for them all in the long run and they'd probably have the morale to defend the Triple Realm. A lot of people float that Graz'zt shouldn't show up for the Dark Heart Talisman ritual, and that he uses his Teleports to really get around Toril and have some fun. The Adventurer's League has an adventure about him in Maerimydra that works fine I guess. It's wild enough that the party gets to meet a non-combat echo of him to socialize with in Gravenhollow.
I think a "regional warlords versus regional warlords versus Lolth" across all layers that don't have good contingency plans for worst-case-scenarios would be ultimately healthy to the Demon Lords. I don't believe Lolth is quite a fundamental part of the abyss as the biggest current demon lords are. If she wages conquest on squabbling territory, she will claim a ton of territory but she will also send a whole ton of abyssal energy back into the abyss itself. It really depends on if your game happens to be taking place before, during, or after the Second Sundering. She's in her own layer way away from the abyss one moment, then she's back to being some numbered layer in the abyss kicking it with her old purple one-eyed roommate again.
When the Demon Lords get sent back home they probably get a massive power-boost. They just spent months turning hundreds of humanoids insane, inspiring cults without even having to do anything thanks to awful dreams that anyone in the underdark gets during these events, and in Demogorgon's case they've likely been killing rival Demons and powering themselves up. When they go back home, if Lolth has been killing thousands of lesser and true demons, I think that'd feed the Demon Lords' return to become potentially as powerful as they ever have been before, right? Not to mention Orcus' Wand.. |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
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Edited by - PattPlays on 26 Feb 2022 03:38:07 |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2022 : 13:20:21
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quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
I don't believe Lolth is quite a fundamental part of the abyss as the biggest current demon lords are.
She largely isn’t. Lolth is just one of several gods (Powers if you prefer the Planescape parlance) who have set up shop in the Abyss. She is very much not the biggest fish in the ocean. The demon lords are fundamental to the Abyss in how they define it as “tanar’ri” being the dominant race, and the title of Prince of Demons being similarly important. If there is a “keystone” to the current nature of the Abyss then it would be Demogorgon.
As I recall, one of the potential endings for the 3rd edition Savage Tide adventure was Demogorgon’s death and Obox-ob regaining the Prince of Demons title; the afterward notes that if this happens it heralds that exact sort of fundamental shift in the Abyss as the tanar’ri are knocked off their perch as the dominant species and the Abyss moves back to their predecessors, the obyrith, which is said to be bad news on a cosmic scale. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2022 : 18:30:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
I don't believe Lolth is quite a fundamental part of the abyss as the biggest current demon lords are.
She largely isn’t. Lolth is just one of several gods (Powers if you prefer the Planescape parlance) who have set up shop in the Abyss. She is very much not the biggest fish in the ocean. The demon lords are fundamental to the Abyss in how they define it as “tanar’ri” being the dominant race, and the title of Prince of Demons being similarly important. If there is a “keystone” to the current nature of the Abyss then it would be Demogorgon.
As I recall, one of the potential endings for the 3rd edition Savage Tide adventure was Demogorgon’s death and Obox-ob regaining the Prince of Demons title; the afterward notes that if this happens it heralds that exact sort of fundamental shift in the Abyss as the tanar’ri are knocked off their perch as the dominant species and the Abyss moves back to their predecessors, the obyrith, which is said to be bad news on a cosmic scale.
The only bad guys who lose more than Lolth on Toril seem to be the Drow. I don't think Lolth would ever be a threat to the greater cosmos and instead will just make her own existing network even more frayed. Look how she treats her family, yeesh.
I think the adventure gives the players and the DM the ability to supplant Demogorgon and have any one threat become the new Prince of Demons. I certainly would like to see a timeline where Graz'zt snatches Princedom of the Abyss following Lolth's fall. I can imagine the players defeating Demogorgon and then the abyss supercharging him and throwing the two-headed demon lord straight into Lolth, tiring both of them out. Graz'zt could walk up between the two of them and take charge just like Demogorgon did back when Graz'zt tired himself against Orcus. By the way, the Wand of Orcus drops when Orcus is reduced to zero hit points. The wand is supposed to straight up kill you for touching it most of the time if not dominate you IIRC. However because of the nature of the story in OOTA, a player character is entirely able to pick it up and immediately use the full power of the wand as represented in Fifth Edition's Dungeon Master's Guide. This is assumed to be part of the Dark Heart Talisman (as Orcus won't show up in the book otherwise) and so the Wand of Orcus wants to be used to destroy the other Demon Lords assumed to be in the adventuring party's immediate vicinity. The reason I bring it up is that Orcus may find himself back in the abyss without his Wand again which must be a point against his power for as long as some twerp holds onto it on Toril.
Graz'zt would have his biggest rival be used as a beat-stick to punish an interloping god while his other biggest rival is missing their signature weapon. That is, if he ever got bored teleporting around Faerun and starting cults in person with no gods intervening to stop him. "Ao I love what you have done with the place." |
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T_P_T |
Edited by - PattPlays on 26 Feb 2022 18:30:40 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1482 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2022 : 02:31:58
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If it were that simple to lock Orcus out of his wand, Kiaransalee wouldn't have gone through the trouble of sealing it in Agathion and having its former bearers memory-wiped.
And, to be fair, I doubt just rampaging around would do much for a prince's power base. Demogorgon's plans involved all of Oerth, and Orcus straight-up ripped Moil off its original world and hurled it into the Negative Energy Plane for the crime of turning away from demon worship.
Personally, I doubt any of the princes are happy about being stuck in the Prime. They've simply got too many plans and rivals to worry about without having to deal with some uppity goddess's tantrum. |
Edited by - LordofBones on 27 Feb 2022 02:33:41 |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2022 : 13:06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
By the way, the Wand of Orcus drops when Orcus is reduced to zero hit points. The wand is supposed to straight up kill you for touching it most of the time if not dominate you IIRC. However because of the nature of the story in OOTA, a player character is entirely able to pick it up and immediately use the full power of the wand as represented in Fifth Edition's Dungeon Master's Guide. This is assumed to be part of the Dark Heart Talisman (as Orcus won't show up in the book otherwise) and so the Wand of Orcus wants to be used to destroy the other Demon Lords assumed to be in the adventuring party's immediate vicinity.
As I recall the adventure, the main reason that the Wand allows itself to be immediately attuned and used is because it is a sentient magic item, with its own will, and it is angry at Demogorgon. It wants payback, and whichever PC picks it up in the moment, well, "they'll do I guess" until Demogorgon is defeated. It's less I think something to do with the Dark Heart Talisman, and more about a temporary alignment of interests, which is why the adventure specifically mentions the Wand temporarily lifting most of the normal restrictions on itself for a player who grabs it.
Afterward, the Wand would go back to doing what it wants to do, which has nothing to do with helping the player character who acquired it:
"Personality: The wand's purpose is to help satisfy Orcus's desire to slay everything in the multiverse. The wand is cold, cruel, nihilistic, and bereft of humor. In order to further its master's goals, the wand feigns devotion to its current user and makes grandiose promises that it has no intention of fulfilling, such as vowing to help its user overthrow Orcus."
And it being out of Orcus' hands isn't even necessarily a bad thing for Orcus, either:
"The device, as evil as its creator, shares the demon lord's aims to snuff out the lives of all living things and bind the Material Plane in the stasis of undeath. Orcus allows the wand to slip from his grasp from time to time. When it does, it magically appears wherever its master senses an opportunity to achieve some fell goal."
Whatever Orcus has needed it for in the past, he does, occasionally, pass it out to others. So I, at least, doubt that Orcus not having it would cause a great calamity to eventuate. And even out of his hands, it is still going to work for Orcus and see his goals fulfilled. It may be an inconvenience to not have it immediately to hand, but he's immortal. He can afford to wait a year or two for the Wand to corrupt whatever poor schmuck is carrying it at the moment.
Essentially, I think I agree with LordofBones here, Orcus being genuinely without his Wand isn't a simple proposition, it needs to go beyond just it being on the Material Plane at the moment. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Quickleaf
Seeker
99 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2022 : 21:30:18
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I won't say its the greatest idea in the world, and I haven't read the RAS novels, but last month we were kind of discussing this
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24268&SearchTerms=lolth
One of the things you'll see me wondering about at the bottom is if the idea may not have been that she was attempting to copy an abyssal layer like she did before, but since her divine domain went BACK to the abyss after the spellplague, she just may have been trying to free it again or somesuch. For that matter, what exactly were the effects on Lolth as well due to the spellplague.... did her other aspects fade away... did she get "copied" such that there's a Lolth out there that's different from the one in the abyss now?
Honestly though, that's just me trying to put a fix on something that should have been more thoroughly thought through from the get go. At times it does get tiring trying to band aid these things because they create half-baked plots that fit better for Saturday morning cartoon shows when I was a kid.
Thanks for this Sleyvas! And for the great discussion giving me plenty to consider.
I missed the bit in Out of the Abyss about the vision of Lolth spawning children to replace the absent demon lords. Interesting. Plenty of plot holes. But interesting nevertheless.
I'm thinking of doing something in my campaign where Iggwilv had a spat with Graz'zt that resulted in her vacating the Abyss, but leaving a "parting gift" for Graz'zt. A curse: “Prince, Prince, upon my wall, do you see the world at all, or just your face enthralled?” This curse turns his narcissism against him, causing the mirrors of his palace to create magical aspects that aren't under his control, but have their own aspirations and regard themselves as the "truest version" of the Dark Prince.
One of these aspects would be "The Son of Lolth", taking inspiration from Lolth's (foiled) plan to replace him in OotA. This aspect would view itself as destined to supplant Lolth, and really playing with the line between fact vs. fiction about Graz'zt's origins.
And here I get into some of my own world-building, interpolating/remixing various official story beats...
There is a legend – considered blasphemy among elves who revere the Seldarine – that the demoness Pale Night seduced Corellon in the guise of his wife Araushnee (who would become Lolth), and thus Graz’zt was born the bastard son of the elven god. Despite the questionable veracity of this legend, Graz’zt has long meddled in the affairs of Lolth. He seduced Lolth’s favored handmaiden Eclavdra, sparking a schism in the faith. He nearly succeeded in uniting the demon lords against Lolth. And he sat upon the throne of the fallen drow city Maerimydra for a time.
However, there is more to Graz’zt’s plan for the Queen of Spiders. He wishes for nothing less than supplanting her as the preeminent figure in drow culture. With their supreme decadence, arrogance, and fearsome intellect beneath a veneer of civility, the drow are a people after Graz’zt’s own dark heart. Over centuries, many demons secretly aligned to Graz’zt have joined in debauched revelries of the noble houses, slowly establishing the Dark Prince’s foothold among the drow. |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2022 : 21:55:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Quickleaf
I'm thinking of doing something in my campaign where Iggwilv had a spat with Graz'zt that resulted in her vacating the Abyss, but leaving a "parting gift" for Graz'zt. A curse: “Prince, Prince, upon my wall, do you see the world at all, or just your face enthralled?” This curse turns his narcissism against him, causing the mirrors of his palace to create magical aspects that aren't under his control, but have their own aspirations and regard themselves as the "truest version" of the Dark Prince.
If you weren’t already aware, there is some detail on Iggwilv’s recent machinations in the Wild Beyond The Witchlight adventure, and if I recall correctly some information on Graz’zt and the current status of that relationship as well. It may be worth your looking into it. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Quickleaf
Seeker
99 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2022 : 22:21:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
If you weren’t already aware, there is some detail on Iggwilv’s recent machinations in the Wild Beyond The Witchlight adventure, and if I recall correctly some information on Graz’zt and the current status of that relationship as well. It may be worth your looking into it.
Thanks Eldacar! Yes, I don't have many of the 5e adventure books, but I did pick that one up thinking I might run a kids game.
I haven't found any references to Graz'zt, but it does mention...
SPOILERS
Iggwilv made too many enemies in the Abyss so she fled to other worlds, eventually reaching the Feywild where she propped herself up as an archfey ruler called "Zybilna." At the end, she can make the PCs forget her true name (Iggwilv) in order to preserve her privacy.
So, reading between the lines, it might be that Graz'zt is looking for her?
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2022 : 00:33:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Quickleaf
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
If you weren’t already aware, there is some detail on Iggwilv’s recent machinations in the Wild Beyond The Witchlight adventure, and if I recall correctly some information on Graz’zt and the current status of that relationship as well. It may be worth your looking into it.
Thanks Eldacar! Yes, I don't have many of the 5e adventure books, but I did pick that one up thinking I might run a kids game.
I haven't found any references to Graz'zt, but it does mention...
SPOILERS
Iggwilv made too many enemies in the Abyss so she fled to other worlds, eventually reaching the Feywild where she propped herself up as an archfey ruler called "Zybilna." At the end, she can make the PCs forget her true name (Iggwilv) in order to preserve her privacy.
So, reading between the lines, it might be that Graz'zt is looking for her?
I believe it was something to do with a mirror, and a couple of polymorphed fiends who were hunting Iggwilv - they leave to go back to the Abyss (or possibly the Hells) depending on the party’s actions. I don’t have the boom near me at the moment, so I can’t recall the specifics. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2022 : 10:08:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Quickleaf
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I won't say its the greatest idea in the world, and I haven't read the RAS novels, but last month we were kind of discussing this
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24268&SearchTerms=lolth
One of the things you'll see me wondering about at the bottom is if the idea may not have been that she was attempting to copy an abyssal layer like she did before, but since her divine domain went BACK to the abyss after the spellplague, she just may have been trying to free it again or somesuch. For that matter, what exactly were the effects on Lolth as well due to the spellplague.... did her other aspects fade away... did she get "copied" such that there's a Lolth out there that's different from the one in the abyss now?
Honestly though, that's just me trying to put a fix on something that should have been more thoroughly thought through from the get go. At times it does get tiring trying to band aid these things because they create half-baked plots that fit better for Saturday morning cartoon shows when I was a kid.
Thanks for this Sleyvas! And for the great discussion giving me plenty to consider.
I missed the bit in Out of the Abyss about the vision of Lolth spawning children to replace the absent demon lords. Interesting. Plenty of plot holes. But interesting nevertheless.
I'm thinking of doing something in my campaign where Iggwilv had a spat with Graz'zt that resulted in her vacating the Abyss, but leaving a "parting gift" for Graz'zt. A curse: “Prince, Prince, upon my wall, do you see the world at all, or just your face enthralled?” This curse turns his narcissism against him, causing the mirrors of his palace to create magical aspects that aren't under his control, but have their own aspirations and regard themselves as the "truest version" of the Dark Prince.
God, imagine taking a darkly comedic take on that. You have lore with Xvarts and Graz'zt in Mortenkainen's Tome of Foes about mimic-godlings cavorting across the planes fleeing Graz'zt and distracting him. Taking that and making the Xvarts little Princes rather than little Raxivorts would be incredibly bonkers.
quote:
However, there is more to Graz’zt’s plan for the Queen of Spiders. He wishes for nothing less than supplanting her as the preeminent figure in drow culture. With their supreme decadence, arrogance, and fearsome intellect beneath a veneer of civility, the drow are a people after Graz’zt’s own dark heart. Over centuries, many demons secretly aligned to Graz’zt have joined in debauched revelries of the noble houses, slowly establishing the Dark Prince’s foothold among the drow.
I'm glad other people think that Menzo' would look fantastic dressed in his shade of purple! Something about the City of Spiders appearing to throw off Lolth and 'be good' only to end up being way worse than before. Maybe the trick-takeover is as simple as secret-agent Graz'zt cambions (wait drow fey'ri with graz'zt blessing sounds crazy actually) committing a coup one night when all the matron mothers get cut off from Lolth.
quote:
So, reading between the lines, it might be that Graz'zt is looking for her?
Quickleaf I am now imagining combining this with the mirror-mini-graz'zt reflections. I mean, fey? Reflections? The 5e reflection monsters are Chaotic Evil Fey creatures. Imagine Graz'zt reflections invading the whole of the Feywild's courtship rituals under dozens of disguises and assumed personas- pulling down masks at every party everywhere looking for "their love". Talk about creating your own nightmare!
quote:
I believe it was something to do with a mirror, and a couple of polymorphed fiends who were hunting Iggwilv - they leave to go back to the Abyss (or possibly the Hells) depending on the party’s actions. I don’t have the boom near me at the moment, so I can’t recall the specifics.
It's mirrors all the way down!  |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
T_P_T |
Edited by - PattPlays on 01 Mar 2022 10:33:42 |
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Quickleaf
Seeker
99 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2022 : 04:09:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
I believe it was something to do with a mirror, and a couple of polymorphed fiends who were hunting Iggwilv - they leave to go back to the Abyss (or possibly the Hells) depending on the party’s actions. I don’t have the boom near me at the moment, so I can’t recall the specifics.
Ah, yes, I found it! Thanks! It's in the bedchamber in Palace of Heart's Desire. Two lamias named Nemesatra & Trizzian were sent by Graz'zt to discover what happened to Tasha/Iggwilv, and return to Graz'zt via a mirror-shifting power once they think they have an answer. |
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Quickleaf
Seeker
99 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2022 : 04:17:55
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quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
God, imagine taking a darkly comedic take on that. You have lore with Xvarts and Graz'zt in Mortenkainen's Tome of Foes about mimic-godlings cavorting across the planes fleeing Graz'zt and distracting him. Taking that and making the Xvarts little Princes rather than little Raxivorts would be incredibly bonkers.
That is bonkers. For some reason I had an image of "muppets in the Abyss" (like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHK5fBm1YWk&t=2s). Well, I've already got a flesh golem named "Drudge" who is crafted of dark blue xvart skins and wears a white Phrygian cap... so clearly I don't have a problem with bonkers.
quote:
I'm glad other people think that Menzo' would look fantastic dressed in his shade of purple! Something about the City of Spiders appearing to throw off Lolth and 'be good' only to end up being way worse than before. Maybe the trick-takeover is as simple as secret-agent Graz'zt cambions (wait drow fey'ri with graz'zt blessing sounds crazy actually) committing a coup one night when all the matron mothers get cut off from Lolth.
I actually have a daemonfey house involved but half-drow cambions totally makes so much sense... after all, one of Graz'zt's sons is half-drow (Athus, son of Eclavdra), and one of his daughters (Liska from 4e) has drow minions.
Sort of makes sense looking at Graz'zt's actions that precipitated Expedition to the Demonweb Pits (he pitched an alliance & Lolth threw it back in his face).
quote:
Quickleaf I am now imagining combining this with the mirror-mini-graz'zt reflections. I mean, fey? Reflections? The 5e reflection monsters are Chaotic Evil Fey creatures. Imagine Graz'zt reflections invading the whole of the Feywild's courtship rituals under dozens of disguises and assumed personas- pulling down masks at every party everywhere looking for "their love". Talk about creating your own nightmare!
That's exactly the sort of imagery I've been playing with. There are some hints of Graz'zt's involvement in the fey realm in official lore too... He counts the archfey Gwynharwyf among his mortal foes. I think there were two obscure mentions of eladrin relating to Graz'zt and his children, but I'll have to double check my sources.
My bibliography for my Graz'zt project has ballooned far larger than I imagined! That guy pops up in little ways all over the place! |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2022 : 09:52:46
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quote:
Originally posted by QuickleafI actually have a daemonfey house involved but half-drow cambions totally makes so much sense... after all, one of Graz'zt's sons is half-drow (Athus, son of Eclavdra), and one of his daughters (Liska from 4e) has drow minions.!
I mean if this weren't fifth edition I'd have just said Tiefling and gotten away with it. Nowadays Asmodeus put his watermark over that term. Fiendish Hodge-podge planar race needs some representation in 5e XD
That table from 2nd edition planescape with d100 fiendish and ??? features to make a randomized wierdo... so much fun! Now the term just means fiend-cursed.
Also.. it is SO Graz'zt to have a plan to invade more than one world at once. Trying to claim a material-plane city as well as carving out a court for himself in the bordering feywild of Faerun's North. Graz'zt calls it a job well done early, and goes back to the Abyss to oversee the start of constructing permanent planar portals on the streets of Azgorat's capital city. Flesh-banners are marked up to declare the arrival of "The Fourth and Fifth Layers of Azgorat: The Five-Fold World of the Dark Prince."
quote:
Originally posted by QuickleafMy bibliography for my Graz'zt project has ballooned far larger than I imagined! That guy pops up in little ways all over the place!
Damn, Aulddragon doesn't yet have a full article on Graz'zt yet.. XD I would recommend it from their blog if it existed! |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
T_P_T |
Edited by - PattPlays on 02 Mar 2022 10:11:51 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2022 : 05:26:16
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I am once more behind.
Is Lolth still a Greater Goddess, in which case she can do whatever she wants to the Archdemons, or is she back down to being a Lesser or Intermediate Power?
Mind you, I take a very, "with the exception of one or two demon lords, Gods are quite able to push them around. Asmodeus can't be because he's a Greater God but a god doesn't rule a layer of the Abyss or Hell because they have their own infinite realms inside them." |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 14 Mar 2022 05:27:04 |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2022 : 14:04:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Is Lolth still a Greater Goddess, in which case she can do whatever she wants to the Archdemons, or is she back down to being a Lesser or Intermediate Power?
She's a Lesser Deity.
Page 11 of the 5e DMG:
"Lesser deities are embodied somewhere in the planes. Some lesser deities live in the Material Plane, as does the unicorn-goddess Lurue of the Forgotten Realms and the titanic shark-god Sekolah revered by the sahuagin. Others live on the Outer Planes, as Lolth does in the Abyss. Such deities can be encountered by mortals." |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2022 : 20:28:07
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| Even if she was demoted to a Lesser power, she'll just pull another crazy scheme that doesn't make anything resembling sense and somehow come out more powerful -- like when she ignored her followers and literally ate herself and somehow became more powerful. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2022 : 22:50:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
Keep in mind though that in the 5e DMG, whoever was in charge of the box text on divine ranks effectively changed the system of divine rank, and perhaps oversimplified what divine rank even means, as it potentially contradicts lore and circumstances in other 5e books.
Tangentially related, but looking back I don’t really know that there was really a need for 3e’s divine rank system, or for all the divine rank powers that went with it and specific “have X thousand followers to be Y rank” business. It did feel at times like it was too much in the realm of “my power level is higher than your power level” and that was really a bit silly (and some divine powers were just flat-out insanely better than others). Quasi-god, demigod, lesser god, greater god, overgod, is all I find myself needing when that sort of thing happens to matter (and even then I could dump quasi-god and not lose sleep over it). I could be convinced to include intermediate god if absolutely necessary, but I don’t need the 3e statblock level of granularity for working out what I want gods to be able to do or not do most of the time. That may just be me though, plenty of people still enjoy 3e’s setup for gods and will swear by it. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2022 : 23:21:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
Keep in mind though that in the 5e DMG, whoever was in charge of the box text on divine ranks effectively changed the system of divine rank, and perhaps oversimplified what divine rank even means, as it potentially contradicts lore and circumstances in other 5e books.
Tangentially related, but looking back I don’t really know that there was really a need for 3e’s divine rank system, or for all the divine rank powers that went with it and specific “have X thousand followers to be Y rank” business. It did feel at times like it was too much in the realm of “my power level is higher than your power level” and that was really a bit silly (and some divine powers were just flat-out insanely better than others). Quasi-god, demigod, lesser god, greater god, overgod, is all I find myself needing when that sort of thing happens to matter (and even then I could dump quasi-god and not lose sleep over it). I could be convinced to include intermediate god if absolutely necessary, but I don’t need the 3e statblock level of granularity for working out what I want gods to be able to do or not do most of the time. That may just be me though, plenty of people still enjoy 3e’s setup for gods and will swear by it.
I think 3E had a lot going for it, as a ruleset, but it went a little overboard in the quest to make EVERYTHING quantifiable and easily slotted into a designated category. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 00:28:05
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quote:
Even if she was demoted to a Lesser power, she'll just pull another crazy scheme that doesn't make anything resembling sense and somehow come out more powerful -- like when she ignored her followers and literally ate herself and somehow became more powerful.
Eh, it would actually be good storytelling that Lolth screwed the pooch and got herself demoted back to her previous level. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Lolth in Out of the Abyss & Maestro / Hero novels?
