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PattPlays
Senior Scribe

469 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2021 : 10:22:45

When researching the Sarrukh, I came across this item regarding the Ba'etith. The source seems to be Grand History of the Realms.

quote:
As the sarrukh civilization expanded, they discovered that the shamans of the primitive races living in certain wilderness areas held magical lore that they had not yet encountered. The sarrukh studied these primitive forms of magic and consolidated their discoveries into a series of tomes. Upon completion, these books, which contained both easily researched magical knowledge and obscure information, were brought to Oreme, the capital of Isstosseffifil, for study, where the most magically gifted among the sarrukh and their servitor races pored over them. The sarrukh empires did not last long enough to gather the full fruits of their work, but this collection of minds grew into its own secret organization � the Ba'etith. This group's members consolidated and extrapolated the bounds of their newly found knowledge, penning the Golden Skins of the World Serpent (discovered by the Netherese centuries later and renamed the Nether Scrolls) many thousands of years after the fall of their empires

I had always assumed the Sarrukh were some phenomenally magical society with fantastical connections to the esoteric world serpent mythos. Sure, they have portals and extraplanar connections and have man-handled their own faith over their vast history. However I couldn't find anything specific on their spellcraft until discovering this paragraph.

So.. this phenomenal source of magical power throughout Toril's history is.. collected magical traditions of unnamed peoples? Potentially old humans? If the humans, then does this mean that ancient human traditions looped back around to influence their own descendants?

This kind of blows my mind, for ever since I heard of the skins of the world serpent and the discovery by Finder of the scrolls in a Sarrukh-styled building, they always seemed to have a reptilian origin by some grand arcane tradition that knew something humans never could.

But if they found shamanistic traditions of pre-draconic pre-elven pre-EVERYTHING humans or any of the other 'thousands of races' like, that's just insane to me..

On the potential other races, the same article identifies that there were at least a thousand varied races living among the Sarrukh in their own empire in its golden days. Apparently the Days of Thunder were filled with a wild diversity, which makes pinning this down on any one or few peoples seem impossible even if we had written history on them. I'm just stunned that this magic wasn't actually created by the Sarrukh..

The only reasonable theory I can end up at it seems is that nearly all peoples not raised up by the creator races must have emerged into the world with some cultures that each held either a piece of arcana or a unique mastered hunk of arcana. Even the Sarrukh could not complete this massive cultural documentation in a timely fashion- or rather they could not form it into a sensible and useful compilation in a timely fashion. This must have been either due to piecing together countless minute arcane superstitions or translating countless arcane cultures or both.
Did a specific shamanistic culture possess the understanding to create artifacts as per the Ars Factum, or was the entirety of arcane knowledge as the netherese would come to know it exist as a tangled noise amidst countless peoples' magical tricks?

Very rambly question, but this is kind of maddening to me. A player is researching a netherese noble's personal ramblings on her studies of the Ars Factum soon, and I was going to research the Sarrukh's magics to provide deep flavor beyond the comparably naive netherese. However, how am I to interpret the fact that this kobold artificer is not reading ancient reptilian secrets but in fact the results of their anthropological research on unnamed primitive shamans? What is the legacy of these shamans- or are we to assume the Sarrukh pruned these shamans as they collected the knowledge?

Edit: It would seem that the answer to the secret lies in deciphering what the source means by "certain wilderness areas".

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Edited by - PattPlays on 29 Jul 2021 10:27:10

TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2021 : 14:42:53

For an idea of what these shaman were creating (and part of the magical knowledge that was collected), you might want to refer to the sacred bundle listed in the 1e Deities and Demigods on page 12 (the first page of the American Indian Mythos). The description states:

"With the help of a tribal cleric (shaman) and the advice of an Indian spirit that has been summoned for this purpose, a warrior can make a sacred bundle."

It also says that the bundle will consist of 5 to 10 items, some of which will be hard to get and thus prove the worthiness of the warrior (like the rattle from a cave of giant snakes).

The sacred bundle will grant the warrior the following benefits: +2 on all saving throws, surprise on only a 1 in 6, an AC of 2, and the subtraction of 1 point of damage from each die of damage taken in combat.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2021 : 15:08:18

The golden skins of the world serpent were like a gigantic catalogue.

At the time there was no weave. If you wanted to do magic it had to be a ritual, it was costly, it was dangerous and you had to make it up from scratch.

The sarrukh were awesome at transmutation magics. But they studied everyone else and noted down all their magic rituals and traditions. Some of these they could replicate, some needed more work. The sarruk likely discovered the ritual had to change as the caster changed.

In the end the golden skins became a gigantic repository, where raw magic was filtered to make it less dangerous and to standardise the rituals into a single form called spells that anyone could cast if they were attuned to the weave and performed the same actions.

I am almost certain that the original catalogue of rituals is out there, but it's not the same thing as the nether scrolls. The nether scrolls were among the first weave anchors (they have since been disconnected from the weave and act as a backup), they contain the total of all spell developed up to and including the netherese as far as Karsus avatar spell.

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11696 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2021 : 22:43:13

To note the ba'etith wasn't necessarily just sarrukh either. The sarrukh started the society, but the golden skins of the world serpent weren't created for four thousand more years. I wouldn't be surprised if it included batrachi, aearee, giants, dragons etc....

Also, another thing to note the primordials were before the sarrukh. The batrachi released some of the primordials that had been imprisoned prior to the sarrukh, causing the tearfall and the first sundering (not the elven sundering mind you). Although the sundering is noted in many things as "the time that dragons showed up", we're also told that the dawn titans/primordials had dragon servants/mounts that turned on them after the Tearfall.... so there were dragons before the dragons of the Tearfall..... just maybe not the metallic and chromatic kind.

As I see it, a lot of the early magics may have been picked up from dragons and primordial beings. Not all mind you, but we need to not think "that the world started with the sarrukh".... that's just the first empire we have documented after the great freeze caused by the gods and primordials fighting.

The humans of this era were primitive and apelike.... but that may be because they were forced into caves due to the shadow epoch. I personally wouldn't make them great wielders of art prior to this though

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 29 Jul 2021 22:55:04

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2021 : 23:35:53

Yeah, I think it was implied the Ba'etith had non-Sarrukh members, seeing Batrachi and Aearee were also stated (in other sources like Serpent Kingdoms) to have contributed to the creation of the Nether Scrolls/Golden Skins of the World Serpent.

Going kinda off-topic, but with Primordials and Dragons, they have a connection. Asgorath was described as both a god, and primordial, in 4E Realms more as an Primordial. Many other Primordials show outright draconic traits - like those on Faerun - ie Rorn in the Realms:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Rorn

Gargash in Nethir Vale:
https://dnd4.fandom.com/wiki/Torog
https://www.enworld.org/attachments/torogandgargash-png.125067/

Brian R. James stated he envisions Tiamat (and Bahamut) starting out as Primordials in coments on our Candlekeep Forum.

Even on Nethir Vale, Io, while refered as a god, and fighting on the Gods' side, was connected to the Elemental Chaos (as are Dragons).

It's possible that Asgorath's summoning, and or his fight with Zotha, awakeed just dormant dragon eggs, as suggested in the 4E Forgotten Realms campaign setting (though it's almost certain Asgorath is connnected to them.)

It was also though stated in the first Draconomicon, dragons on Abeir-Toril, might in reality had evolved from a species of Dinosaur:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Eodraco

This would tie them to another Primordial - Ubtao.

(It's more of a possibility though, an in-universe theory in the book, a number of sages are noted to be disputing it. Eodraco could be as well an early creation of Primordials, or form of dragon, unrelated to dinosaurs)

The term Primordial was kinda loselly used though - Slaad Lords (including Bazim-Gorag, an ascended Batrachi); The Prime Architect (who after death, partly desintegrated into the first Modrons, and latter 4 Modreons fused with the Prime Architect vestige, to resurrect him as the first Primus); Ramenos (also an aspect of the World Serpent); Elemental Lords, are also all called Primordials. Annam was also called a father, or even THE father of Primordials in Nethir Vale lore (and I guess maybe at least part of Primordials, are the first generation of his children - ie ones like Piranoth, the the Stone King, Balcoth etc.; oldest members of the Giant Pantheon , sans Annam being the second (indeed, it was noted at least part of the giant pantheon, mantains Realms in Elemental Chaos); and Annam's and Othea children the third).

It's possible "Primordial" is a "generic" term for a very ancient (as old or older than the oldest gods, or descentants of such beings) connected to the Elemental Chaos, or being that were ancient enemies (or being related to them) of early gods during the Dawn War - possibly even an exonym, given to Primoridials by their enemies (gods) retained by mortal races and other beings, due gods influence on the multiverse.

Edited by - Baltas on 30 Jul 2021 01:47:47

PattPlays
Senior Scribe

469 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2021 : 04:58:36

A combined effort from various high-races building upon the work of low-races.. it seems as if this magical power source was emergent from the minds and environments of nearly all life on Toril. The Nether Scrolls have been compared to me as a tablet with a massive catalogue of information (a single nether scroll that is) but now it seems more like an artificial intelligence pieced together by thousands of brilliant minds from uneducated shamans performing the most brutalist rituals based purely on observation of the natural world and also of various races with immense complicated and wholly understood magics. It really does cover all arcana and followers of countless divinities have placed their fingers upon its lineage. Now the Nether Scrolls really do feel like those extraplanar tomes of arcana which have been written into by countless mages. Only unlike flesh-bound tomes of awful knowledge and fiendish true names, this is some unaligned entity born from and serving all the peoples of Toril equally. The universal language and innumerable ways to read from it definitely make more sense when taking into account the massive and unique collaboration.

The Nether Scrolls are like a material world crafted by gods. Only it is instead crafted by the lives and deaths (but not souls) of countless generations of varied mortals and instead of making a glorified prison/furnace/lottery for the fueling of extraplanar domains, their effort creates a kernel of potential that can elevate any being into an arcanist capable of making their dreams come true.

To think that Karsus' avatar may have been the peak held within this collaborative effort- equally sourced from unnamed shamans, creator races, dragons and giants, and eventually the netherese themselves to do the work of discovering and unraveling this gift that mortality bore unto itself..
It really does feel like an allegory for technology in our home timeline. That the most powerful of artifices is connected straight through to the unnamed and unknown peoples of the ancient world. That their blind forays into 'magic' were catalogued by hard working curious folk who took it upon themselves to do literal anthropology on their peers (or their lessers if they chose to view it that way) and to continue the project knowing they won't live to see its end. It is in honor of countless generations who did this contribution into creating real life arcana. That this knowledge could be compiled, completed, and lost as a time-capsule of countless cultures and peoples and that some society later on could find it in a dusty room and create impossible things by standing on the shoulders of the past.

It isn't about morality, it's about mortality. And potentially, about immortality. This reminds me of the TV ending of Hitchiker's Guide. That a peoples existing naturally as part of the land would hold the secret to life, the universe, and everything in their brains and their evolution. To think that Karsus' Avatar was a secret hidden inside the people who lived the closest to nature than anyone ever would, and that the one to finally cast it was a being who flew in the sky as disconnected from their herritage as anyone- and was turned to stone, with arcana from the stone age.

Palpatine voice: "Ironic."

Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
3286 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2021 : 09:10:14

I wonder where the Spell Weavers fit in to this?

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep

PattPlays
Senior Scribe

469 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2021 : 09:19:28

quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

I wonder where the Spell Weavers fit in to this?

I just watched a video on them! I hadn't watched it intentionally as I didn't feel it was cosmically time to do so yet, with my chaotic treck across D&D magics and monsters.

If I had to come up with something crazy, then I'd say that the great failure of- oh, oh gosh I just did actually come up with something crazy. And tragic..

The spell weavers conducted a grand ritual to reshape the universe, but something went wrong. Now the spell weavers are convinced they have to resort to their scattered pieces of their great reset button.

But what if it didn't go wrong? What if the answer to their issue with the gods was instead set into play into the universe? What if the unconscious minds of the living beings on Toril (and other places) hides the biological, mortal secrets to reshaping the universe. Karsus' avatar is the kind of power that would enable beings to complete the work of the spell weavers to the benefit of all. The creator races and other beings contributed to this great work- the unraveling and deciphering of the code of the biosphere. True natural magic, undivine and inherently mortal. The spell-weavers DO have a book in three parts that needs to be reorganized and turned about to get the true secrets within- that sounds a lot like the Nether Scrolls.
Karsus' avatar failed for a single reason. Karsus couldn't handle it. He was a weak mortal, the human race may have once been able to handle it but, as stated in this forum, they may have 'devolved' in the Shadow Epoch due to the gods' interference. This is the parallel to the "ship of useless peoples" landing on earth in the past and out-breeding the true humans who knew the answer- or rather the question to which the answer was 42. If Karsus were a true human worthy of being called a creator race on toril, he may have handled it and took the first step in achieving what the Spell Weavers intended- the taking hold of the reigns of true divinity by mortals and the expulsion of interloping gods.

If the Sarrukh had cast Karsus Avatar, then they may have survived. Or a giant. Or otherwise. And the best part is that in 5e, Mystra's ban on high level magic is gone. Thank you, Midnight.

The tragedy is that one can imagine the Spell Weavers have completely lost faith and may reset the universe before mortals have a chance to truly achieve what the Spell Weavers want them to do.

I knew waiting to watch that video was a good idea, if I had watched it before learning about the Sarrukh I may have never considered this.

Edit: This brings up the question.... did the Shade steal up all of the nether scrolls and lose them to the chaos of their fall, or is a complete set still out there? I know that the nether scrolls reform randomly if destroyed, but we would have to assemble a new gilded tree or the like before the Spell Weavers assemble their great reset button. If the Spell Weavers are convinced that the exact way they did things last time was wrong when it was actually right, then resetting the world to do it differently would forever doom the cosmos into an endless loop of resetting. Re-casting Karsus Avatar before they push the reset button could be mortality's only hope. If only someone strong enough to hold the power of a god could be the one to cast it- and in short enough time for it to matter.

Also Brimstone your sig quote is prophetically relevant here. The spell weavers think lowly of all other races- of course they would never notice the fruit of their labor if it was birthed into the low peoples.

Edited by - PattPlays on 30 Jul 2021 09:38:06

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11696 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2021 : 13:59:53

Hey Baltas,

I definitely somewhat echo your feelings about "primordials" being used in such a haphazard and unclear fashion. I also note the same link to dragons. Help me out here and see if this works, as its something I've pondered in the past and just never really worked it through all the way.... the primordials used "dragons as mounts".... We can take this LITERALLY or FIGURATIVELY.... so they "rode" dragons..... what if "those in the know" have misinterpreted this statement. What if primordials act like parasites or vestiges, and they inhabit "things". So, maybe they weren't "riding" their dragons so much as "riding in the minds" of dragons. So, there were "dragons" who were acting as hosts for primordials.

So, perhaps primordials aren't what we've all been thinking... they aren't some elemental link.... they just maybe come from some place on the far side of where the elemental planes are... a place that mortals can't go to. For some, it might be the place "where vestiges go"... or it might be the Far Realm... or it might be on the other side of the positive and negative material planes... or some other weird sh*t. But in essence, some of them learn to inhabit powerful beings (like dragons, Bazim-Gorag, etc...) and some of them learn to inhabit the elements themselves and maybe some of them inhabit things like crystals (like the shard of evil that was plunged into the elemental chaos to make the abyss... and possibly the black diamond that links to the seemingly non-existent form of the Queen of Air and Darkness).

In this concept, the primordials might be different from the gods in that the gods are involved with the outer planes, as a place created to which souls are extracted from the material plane. Meanwhile, prior to the formation of the outer planes, perhaps souls were being left behind on the prime and eaten by "primordials" through their vessels. Essentially, the war of gods and primordials becomes a war over the creation of the outer planes and the siphoning of souls away from the prime.

Does this work?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11696 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2021 : 14:08:24

quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays

A combined effort from various high-races building upon the work of low-races.. it seems as if this magical power source was emergent from the minds and environments of nearly all life on Toril. The Nether Scrolls have been compared to me as a tablet with a massive catalogue of information (a single nether scroll that is) but now it seems more like an artificial intelligence pieced together by thousands of brilliant minds from uneducated shamans performing the most brutalist rituals based purely on observation of the natural world and also of various races with immense complicated and wholly understood magics. It really does cover all arcana and followers of countless divinities have placed their fingers upon its lineage. Now the Nether Scrolls really do feel like those extraplanar tomes of arcana which have been written into by countless mages. Only unlike flesh-bound tomes of awful knowledge and fiendish true names, this is some unaligned entity born from and serving all the peoples of Toril equally. The universal language and innumerable ways to read from it definitely make more sense when taking into account the massive and unique collaboration.

The Nether Scrolls are like a material world crafted by gods. Only it is instead crafted by the lives and deaths (but not souls) of countless generations of varied mortals and instead of making a glorified prison/furnace/lottery for the fueling of extraplanar domains, their effort creates a kernel of potential that can elevate any being into an arcanist capable of making their dreams come true.

To think that Karsus' avatar may have been the peak held within this collaborative effort- equally sourced from unnamed shamans, creator races, dragons and giants, and eventually the netherese themselves to do the work of discovering and unraveling this gift that mortality bore unto itself..
It really does feel like an allegory for technology in our home timeline. That the most powerful of artifices is connected straight through to the unnamed and unknown peoples of the ancient world. That their blind forays into 'magic' were catalogued by hard working curious folk who took it upon themselves to do literal anthropology on their peers (or their lessers if they chose to view it that way) and to continue the project knowing they won't live to see its end. It is in honor of countless generations who did this contribution into creating real life arcana. That this knowledge could be compiled, completed, and lost as a time-capsule of countless cultures and peoples and that some society later on could find it in a dusty room and create impossible things by standing on the shoulders of the past.

It isn't about morality, it's about mortality. And potentially, about immortality. This reminds me of the TV ending of Hitchiker's Guide. That a peoples existing naturally as part of the land would hold the secret to life, the universe, and everything in their brains and their evolution. To think that Karsus' Avatar was a secret hidden inside the people who lived the closest to nature than anyone ever would, and that the one to finally cast it was a being who flew in the sky as disconnected from their herritage as anyone- and was turned to stone, with arcana from the stone age.

Palpatine voice: "Ironic."

OR

The Nether Scrolls are the result of those Ba'etith casting some powerful ritual that implanted their souls or a copy of their intellect into the items. It might be that each scroll is the combined intelligence of several such individuals working together, and they have continued to learn via interacting with the minds of the living all this time, and the nether scrolls themselves may all be interconnected to one another..... such that what one learns from a living person interacting with them... they then teach to all of the other scrolls. Thus the scrolls adapt with the times, and possibly easier than most mortals because they've seen the different ages and how magic works (think of them kind of like the person who nowadays might know how to code in modern day programming languages, but who still knows all the old tricks of using DOS and machine language as well... so that when the new things fail, they revert to something older and
create a workaround)

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11696 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2021 : 14:17:46

On Karsus' Avatar

Consider this.... everyone thinks Karsus was so great.... but what he attempted and failed at, we have another individual having done in recent times. What am I talking about? Velsharoon the Vaunted. Granted, we have that "Talos sponsored him", but what exactly did Talos do? To me, his "sponsorship" may be nothing more than needing a "second" to okay someone to say "I second that this person be allowed to run for the position". Karsus just tried to go straight up the ladder and take over someone else's position directly and without their say so, rather than creating a new position and title and THEN going after their peer's positions. I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't a lot of instances of mortals becoming gods via magic prior to this, and I'd bet that the Imaskari knew about it, given their feelings about gods. It's just Karsus did things SO over the top stupid (for a brilliant mind, mind you) that the gods then tinkered with the rules for ascension to stop people joining their ranks as easily as they once did... possibly instituting a rule that another god must "second" their rise as part of the new requirements.

The other way that we've seen mortals becoming gods is that "mortal kills god somehow and takes on their power"... and this is usually done somehow with the aid of some other god mind you (even if hidden in some way like using a sword that's actually the god Mask).... so in a way, these other gods are "seconding" your rise to power. In this way, its also different from what Karsus tried, in that they are effectively evacuating the position first, and then filling it.

Where we see some oddities here are things like what happened with Jergal and the dark three, but even that involves something of a peaceful transition of power (and possibly him pulling some shenanigans as well).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 30 Jul 2021 14:29:16

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2021 : 15:09:51

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

On Karsus' Avatar

Consider this.... everyone thinks Karsus was so great.... but what he attempted and failed at, we have another individual having done in recent times.

Not I! I've long been critical of Karsus. Once I outgrew thinking that the Netheril boxed set was cool and took a more informed look at it, my opinion of Karsus pretty much did a 180.

Even if I liked the vestige thing that was later introduced, I'd not go that route for Karsus. A true and permanent death is better than he deserves, but that's how I'd handle him: dead and gone, never to return or influence anything again.

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PattPlays
Senior Scribe

469 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2021 : 15:10:19

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

On Karsus' Avatar

Consider this.... everyone thinks Karsus was so great.... but what he attempted and failed at, we have another individual having done in recent times. What am I talking about? Velsharoon the Vaunted. Granted, we have that "Talos sponsored him", but what exactly did Talos do? To me, his "sponsorship" may be nothing more than needing a "second" to okay someone to say "I second that this person be allowed to run for the position". Karsus just tried to go straight up the ladder and take over someone else's position directly and without their say so, rather than creating a new position and title and THEN going after their peer's positions. I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't a lot of instances of mortals becoming gods via magic prior to this, and I'd bet that the Imaskari knew about it, given their feelings about gods. It's just Karsus did things SO over the top stupid (for a brilliant mind, mind you) that the gods then tinkered with the rules for ascension to stop people joining their ranks as easily as they once did... possibly instituting a rule that another god must "second" their rise as part of the new requirements.

The other way that we've seen mortals becoming gods is that "mortal kills god somehow and takes on their power"... and this is usually done somehow with the aid of some other god mind you (even if hidden in some way like using a sword that's actually the god Mask).... so in a way, these other gods are "seconding" your rise to power. In this way, its also different from what Karsus tried, in that they are effectively evacuating the position first, and then filling it.

Where we see some oddities here are things like what happened with Jergal and the dark three, but even that involves something of a peaceful transition of power (and possibly him pulling some shenanigans as well).

From what little I know, Velsharoon was always brought up in topics in a way that makes me think he is taking the chaos of the world at face value and showing the established systems of divine power, "Look at this mess, if you had me on your side as a god I would make this **** make sense. I am the sensible choice for someone you should elevate." when in reality he's just an evil jerk sucking up to try and sneak in a power grab before Ao and WOTC finish making him irrelevant by fully restoring Mystra and splitting up Azuth and Asmodeus. He is not one who fits the mantle of the Spell Weavers. Karsus had one simple thing going for him. He didn't ask permission from the gods. He took it. That, the spell weavers would like- if they weren't completely up their own *** about treating other races like barbaric soul-fuel scum. And again, humanity as a creator race could have potentially been intended to be some kind of race that could make a Spell Weaver crap themselves but the gods' existing by some way caused them to not develop properly. Imagine if humanity's ambitions were just one half of the original Creator Race (though the more I say that term the more problematic it sounds) and there was another more durable and long lived aspect to them that was lost along the way.

I'm not saying it was Karsus being special. I'm saying that a mortal and not some undead cheater would be a more rational target for some grand cosmic attempt at doing what the Spell Weavers wanted to do. That being claim divinity themselves as mortals and rewrite the universe without the gods in it.

Edit: Also Velsharoon is tied in with Shar and the ENTIRE finale of the transition between 4e and 5e in lore from what I can tell is about taking literally every possible narrative item from the past hundred and fifty years of realmslore to create this super built up Sharran doomsday and then systematically undo every one of her prophecies. Shar gets bodied hard all across toril. Everything from Abeir and the Dragon turtle to Azuth and asmodeus' divinity and so, so, SO many stories of famous characters ending up stuck in Avernus, and all the way to the destruction of both the world's strongest citadel of shadow-weave using peoples and a literal black hole of Shar-power over Myth Drannor by crashing one into the other, ancient warriers being delayed their birth so they can help the return of one of MAAANY dead gods to thwart Shar and the chosen and-

Shar allies lose. That's the story. Velsharoon picked gods. That's my point. He may have picked "himself" if he's self serving and evil but his route is weaksauce and futile from the perspective of the Spell Weavers I'd bet. A lich trying to become a god must sound like such a coward to those who sought to achieve divine power independently of the gods, in spite of the gods, and while still being mortals.

Edited by - PattPlays on 30 Jul 2021 15:16:44

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2021 : 16:18:04

quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays

Edit: Also Velsharoon is tied in with Shar and the ENTIRE finale of the transition between 4e and 5e in lore from what I can tell is about taking literally every possible narrative item from the past hundred and fifty years of realmslore to create this super built up Sharran doomsday and then systematically undo every one of her prophecies. Shar gets bodied hard all across toril. Everything from Abeir and the Dragon turtle to Azuth and asmodeus' divinity and so, so, SO many stories of famous characters ending up stuck in Avernus, and all the way to the destruction of both the world's strongest citadel of shadow-weave using peoples and a literal black hole of Shar-power over Myth Drannor by crashing one into the other, ancient warriers being delayed their birth so they can help the return of one of MAAANY dead gods to thwart Shar and the chosen and-

Shar allies lose. That's the story. Velsharoon picked gods. That's my point. He may have picked "himself" if he's self serving and evil but his route is weaksauce and futile from the perspective of the Spell Weavers I'd bet. A lich trying to become a god must sound like such a coward to those who sought to achieve divine power independently of the gods, in spite of the gods, and while still being mortals.

You know... In the waning days of 3E, they referenced a "coming weakness of Shar." Before we knew anything about the Spellplague, I wondered if it was somehow going to backfire on Shar and knock her down a few notches.

Instead, WotC said "You, thought we were all about Shar before? Well now we're turning it up to 11!"

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2021 : 16:42:32

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Hey Baltas,

I definitely somewhat echo your feelings about "primordials" being used in such a haphazard and unclear fashion. I also note the same link to dragons. Help me out here and see if this works, as its something I've pondered in the past and just never really worked it through all the way.... the primordials used "dragons as mounts".... We can take this LITERALLY or FIGURATIVELY.... so they "rode" dragons..... what if "those in the know" have misinterpreted this statement. What if primordials act like parasites or vestiges, and they inhabit "things". So, maybe they weren't "riding" their dragons so much as "riding in the minds" of dragons. So, there were "dragons" who were acting as hosts for primordials.

So, perhaps primordials aren't what we've all been thinking... they aren't some elemental link.... they just maybe come from some place on the far side of where the elemental planes are... a place that mortals can't go to. For some, it might be the place "where vestiges go"... or it might be the Far Realm... or it might be on the other side of the positive and negative material planes... or some other weird sh*t. But in essence, some of them learn to inhabit powerful beings (like dragons, Bazim-Gorag, etc...) and some of them learn to inhabit the elements themselves and maybe some of them inhabit things like crystals (like the shard of evil that was plunged into the elemental chaos to make the abyss... and possibly the black diamond that links to the seemingly non-existent form of the Queen of Air and Darkness).

In this concept, the primordials might be different from the gods in that the gods are involved with the outer planes, as a place created to which souls are extracted from the material plane. Meanwhile, prior to the formation of the outer planes, perhaps souls were being left behind on the prime and eaten by "primordials" through their vessels. Essentially, the war of gods and primordials becomes a war over the creation of the outer planes and the siphoning of souls away from the prime.

Does this work?

Hmm interesting idea with Primordials being Parasites to a degree, though I don't know if I fully agree.

It's possible they altered some organisims on early planets, by influsing them with elemental energies and even part of their essence, possibly to act as their hosts (especially that the Prmordials true forms might had been to large, violatile or complex to just walk on world in the Material Plane, or maybe Primrdials exist just as elemental energy in their true form), but kinda more like avatars - compare to Mulan God Kings, and their descendants that can also act as their hosts. It's possible first Dragons were Dinosaurs (ie the Eodraco), which Primordials altered to both fit as their hosts (I guess Rorn and Asgorath would be active with this on Faerun, possibly also Ubtao) but also servants (especially after they maybe breed using their host bodies). Some giants, could be derived from larger hominids (like Gigantopithecus - an old Dragon article stated Hill Giants could be Gigantopitheci or evolved from them; or maybe more human species, Denisovans who could be quite large), that were inflused with elemental energies, and also breeding with them, usiing potentially host bodies.

It's notable Primordials also in canon did this to create at least the Abeiran Genasi, or Rorn having created Felljaws out of dragons, and Haraevor from crocodillians. (With Rorn, again himself being draconic, apearing and being outright described as a humanoid dragon).

I'm not sure about the Primordials and their creations eating souls though - I got the impressions Primordials largelly don't care about mortal souls, aside from those Primordials that corrupted into demons.
Though I think you mean with some primordials at least, it was more of a sid effect of their actions - possibly even in Realmspace, Primordials were corrupted into Demon Princes not due to the Shard of Pure Evil, but due to inentional mass devouring of souls (kinda like Elder Gods in classic Marvel Comics).
Some of the Primordials even shown outright benevolent traits - Rorn is a good example. Despite being an extremellyy powerful and savage in battle primordial (indeed, mentioned to be among the most feated and hated Primordials by gods in Realmspace at least, who killed many, many gods and their servitors durng the Dawn War), when not in rage, Rorn was desribed as tolerant, caring about his servants. As well as the fact Rorn didn't really like the Dawn War, and tried to negotiate peace with gods - though gods rejected his suggestions for peace (due to again, fearing and hating Rorn, for the many gods he slain), causing Rorn to grow to despise gods even when calm. In part as Rorn didn't want to fight and be ever angry, even suggested he outright hated his inner fury (of which he was described to be slave of), being happy the Dawn War ended, as he could finally end calm his fury (sadly, this was not the case).

Asgorath, while described as a Prmordial in 4E, according to Ed, it is described in Dragon Legends that Asgorath defended Abeir-Toril from detruction, wen Zotha (described by Ed as possibly a Far Realm Elder Evil, and possibly the source of most aberrations on Toril) wanted to destroy it:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/i-dont-see-much-in-the-way-of-lore-when-it-comes-to-zotha-can-you-impart-any-thing-about-its-form-or-relationship-with-asgorath/

Though the myth Ed shared suggest there might had been some relation between what Asgorath and Zotha were.

Edited by - Baltas on 30 Jul 2021 18:03:08

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11696 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2021 : 19:11:22

quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

On Karsus' Avatar

Consider this.... everyone thinks Karsus was so great.... but what he attempted and failed at, we have another individual having done in recent times. What am I talking about? Velsharoon the Vaunted. Granted, we have that "Talos sponsored him", but what exactly did Talos do? To me, his "sponsorship" may be nothing more than needing a "second" to okay someone to say "I second that this person be allowed to run for the position". Karsus just tried to go straight up the ladder and take over someone else's position directly and without their say so, rather than creating a new position and title and THEN going after their peer's positions. I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't a lot of instances of mortals becoming gods via magic prior to this, and I'd bet that the Imaskari knew about it, given their feelings about gods. It's just Karsus did things SO over the top stupid (for a brilliant mind, mind you) that the gods then tinkered with the rules for ascension to stop people joining their ranks as easily as they once did... possibly instituting a rule that another god must "second" their rise as part of the new requirements.

The other way that we've seen mortals becoming gods is that "mortal kills god somehow and takes on their power"... and this is usually done somehow with the aid of some other god mind you (even if hidden in some way like using a sword that's actually the god Mask).... so in a way, these other gods are "seconding" your rise to power. In this way, its also different from what Karsus tried, in that they are effectively evacuating the position first, and then filling it.

Where we see some oddities here are things like what happened with Jergal and the dark three, but even that involves something of a peaceful transition of power (and possibly him pulling some shenanigans as well).

From what little I know, Velsharoon was always brought up in topics in a way that makes me think he is taking the chaos of the world at face value and showing the established systems of divine power, "Look at this mess, if you had me on your side as a god I would make this **** make sense. I am the sensible choice for someone you should elevate." when in reality he's just an evil jerk sucking up to try and sneak in a power grab before Ao and WOTC finish making him irrelevant by fully restoring Mystra and splitting up Azuth and Asmodeus. He is not one who fits the mantle of the Spell Weavers. Karsus had one simple thing going for him. He didn't ask permission from the gods. He took it. That, the spell weavers would like- if they weren't completely up their own *** about treating other races like barbaric soul-fuel scum. And again, humanity as a creator race could have potentially been intended to be some kind of race that could make a Spell Weaver crap themselves but the gods' existing by some way caused them to not develop properly. Imagine if humanity's ambitions were just one half of the original Creator Race (though the more I say that term the more problematic it sounds) and there was another more durable and long lived aspect to them that was lost along the way.

I'm not saying it was Karsus being special. I'm saying that a mortal and not some undead cheater would be a more rational target for some grand cosmic attempt at doing what the Spell Weavers wanted to do. That being claim divinity themselves as mortals and rewrite the universe without the gods in it.

Edit: Also Velsharoon is tied in with Shar and the ENTIRE finale of the transition between 4e and 5e in lore from what I can tell is about taking literally every possible narrative item from the past hundred and fifty years of realmslore to create this super built up Sharran doomsday and then systematically undo every one of her prophecies. Shar gets bodied hard all across toril. Everything from Abeir and the Dragon turtle to Azuth and asmodeus' divinity and so, so, SO many stories of famous characters ending up stuck in Avernus, and all the way to the destruction of both the world's strongest citadel of shadow-weave using peoples and a literal black hole of Shar-power over Myth Drannor by crashing one into the other, ancient warriers being delayed their birth so they can help the return of one of MAAANY dead gods to thwart Shar and the chosen and-

Shar allies lose. That's the story. Velsharoon picked gods. That's my point. He may have picked "himself" if he's self serving and evil but his route is weaksauce and futile from the perspective of the Spell Weavers I'd bet. A lich trying to become a god must sound like such a coward to those who sought to achieve divine power independently of the gods, in spite of the gods, and while still being mortals.

Whether you like him or not isn't my point (and he was a self-serving bastard, but I won't say that he was actually serving for or against Mystra or Shar... we don't know for certain), my point was simply that this "thing" that everyone labeled Karsus as so special for with his spell...... maybe it wasn't so special.... maybe he was just one amongst many who used magic to elevate himself to godhood, only he was the dummy that try to displace an established deity instead of just "hey, I want to join the club, and I'll be the god of ...... lessee... noone has sewing...".

In other words, the gods may have been fine with people jumping up amongst their ranks, so long as they didn't take a portfolio that conflicted. But then Karsus became THAT GUY... you know the one where they have to put a label on the ritual book that says "Trying to displace the goddess of magic while using magic as your method of displacement is not considered a smart act and should be avoided if possible. Results can be: loss of the weave, turning to stone, and lots and lots of death".

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11696 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2021 : 19:24:37

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Hey Baltas,

I definitely somewhat echo your feelings about "primordials" being used in such a haphazard and unclear fashion. I also note the same link to dragons. Help me out here and see if this works, as its something I've pondered in the past and just never really worked it through all the way.... the primordials used "dragons as mounts".... We can take this LITERALLY or FIGURATIVELY.... so they "rode" dragons..... what if "those in the know" have misinterpreted this statement. What if primordials act like parasites or vestiges, and they inhabit "things". So, maybe they weren't "riding" their dragons so much as "riding in the minds" of dragons. So, there were "dragons" who were acting as hosts for primordials.

So, perhaps primordials aren't what we've all been thinking... they aren't some elemental link.... they just maybe come from some place on the far side of where the elemental planes are... a place that mortals can't go to. For some, it might be the place "where vestiges go"... or it might be the Far Realm... or it might be on the other side of the positive and negative material planes... or some other weird sh*t. But in essence, some of them learn to inhabit powerful beings (like dragons, Bazim-Gorag, etc...) and some of them learn to inhabit the elements themselves and maybe some of them inhabit things like crystals (like the shard of evil that was plunged into the elemental chaos to make the abyss... and possibly the black diamond that links to the seemingly non-existent form of the Queen of Air and Darkness).

In this concept, the primordials might be different from the gods in that the gods are involved with the outer planes, as a place created to which souls are extracted from the material plane. Meanwhile, prior to the formation of the outer planes, perhaps souls were being left behind on the prime and eaten by "primordials" through their vessels. Essentially, the war of gods and primordials becomes a war over the creation of the outer planes and the siphoning of souls away from the prime.

Does this work?

Hmm interesting idea with Primordials being Parasites to a degree, though I don't know if I fully agree.

It's possible they altered some organisims on early planets, by influsing them with elemental energies and even part of their essence, possibly to act as their hosts (especially that the Prmordials true forms might had been to large, violatile or complex to just walk on world in the Material Plane, or maybe Primrdials exist just as elemental energy in their true form), but kinda more like avatars - compare to Mulan God Kings, and their descendants that can also act as their hosts. It's possible first Dragons were Dinosaurs (ie the Eodraco), which Primordials altered to both fit as their hosts (I guess Rorn and Asgorath would be active with this on Faerun, possibly also Ubtao) but also servants (especially after they maybe breed using their host bodies). Some giants, could be derived from larger hominids (like Gigantopithecus - an old Dragon article stated Hill Giants could be Gigantopitheci or evolved from them; or maybe more human species, Denisovans who could be quite large), that were inflused with elemental energies, and also breeding with them, usiing potentially host bodies.

It's notable Primordials also in canon did this to create at least the Abeiran Genasi, or Rorn having created Felljaws out of dragons, and Haraevor from crocodillians. (With Rorn, again himself being draconic, apearing and being outright described as a humanoid dragon).

I'm not sure about the Primordials and their creations eating souls though - I got the impressions Primordials largelly don't care about mortal souls, aside from those Primordials that corrupted into demons.
Though I think you mean with some primordials at least, it was more of a sid effect of their actions - possibly even in Realmspace, Primordials were corrupted into Demon Princes not due to the Shard of Pure Evil, but due to inentional mass devouring of souls (kinda like Elder Gods in classic Marvel Comics).
Some of the Primordials even shown outright benevolent traits - Rorn is a good example. Despite being an extremellyy powerful and savage in battle primordial (indeed, mentioned to be among the most feated and hated Primordials by gods in Realmspace at least, who killed many, many gods and their servitors durng the Dawn War), when not in rage, Rorn was desribed as tolerant, caring about his servants. As well as the fact Rorn didn't really like the Dawn War, and tried to negotiate peace with gods - though gods rejected his suggestions for peace (due to again, fearing and hating Rorn, for the many gods he slain), causing Rorn to grow to despise gods even when calm. In part as Rorn didn't want to fight and be ever angry, even suggested he outright hated his inner fury (of which he was described to be slave of), being happy the Dawn War ended, as he could finally end calm his fury (sadly, this was not the case).

Asgorath, while described as a Prmordial in 4E, according to Ed, it is described in Dragon Legends that Asgorath defended Abeir-Toril from detruction, wen Zotha (described by Ed as possibly a Far Realm Elder Evil, and possibly the source of most aberrations on Toril) wanted to destroy it:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/i-dont-see-much-in-the-way-of-lore-when-it-comes-to-zotha-can-you-impart-any-thing-about-its-form-or-relationship-with-asgorath/

Though the myth Ed shared suggest there might had been some relation between what Asgorath and Zotha were.

Yes, like the Mulan manifestations would be a good way to compare what I was thinking of.... and only to try to make this "its a primordial" thing work across ALL the different things that were proclaimed as primordials (i.e. various elemental looking things, dragons, batrachi, giant serpents, worm covered dogs, etc...).

On the eating of eating of souls thing, I was thinking along the lines of Kezef the Chaos Hound, but true, not all entities are noted as having involvement with souls. Some of them like Dendar don't eat souls either, but rather dreams. So, the source of conflict may still need work. Maybe taking the souls from the prime makes the worlds less magical or somesuch, and the primordials were thus weakened as a result because they can't access the energies of the outer planes (unless they are riding in a "body").

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Eldacar
Senior Scribe

438 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2021 : 22:07:37

As a note on Karsus and his casting of the Avatar spell, it may be worth looking at some of Ed�s Twitter replies on the subject. Among other things, it is noted that Karsus was very definitely a genius (probably your archetypal high-INT, catastrophically-low-WIS), but his spell would not have worked had he targeted any other divinity than Mystryl, because she would have stepped in and prevented it from working. I remember Ed�s reply had �exeunt Karsus in any case� at the end of it, if that helps you track it down.

There were also some replied Ed gave me on the Nether Scrolls several years ago, including some people who have read them (Larloch and Ioulaum; both have since had Twitter replies about them and their abilities too, by the by), but also that Karsus did not read the Nether Scrolls, at least not to where he would �gain benefits� from them, because he didn�t trust the Scrolls to not be booby-trapped or similar. What he did, he did himself, because his genius/pride would not allow him to simply follow somebody else�s instructions.

"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster

PattPlays
Senior Scribe

469 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2021 : 02:38:02

quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar

As a note on Karsus and his casting of the Avatar spell, it may be worth looking at some of Ed�s Twitter replies on the subject. Among other things, it is noted that Karsus was very definitely a genius (probably your archetypal high-INT, catastrophically-low-WIS), but his spell would not have worked had he targeted any other divinity than Mystryl, because she would have stepped in and prevented it from working. I remember Ed�s reply had �exeunt Karsus in any case� at the end of it, if that helps you track it down.

There were also some replied Ed gave me on the Nether Scrolls several years ago, including some people who have read them (Larloch and Ioulaum; both have since had Twitter replies about them and their abilities too, by the by), but also that Karsus did not read the Nether Scrolls, at least not to where he would �gain benefits� from them, because he didn�t trust the Scrolls to not be booby-trapped or similar. What he did, he did himself, because his genius/pride would not allow him to simply follow somebody else�s instructions.

Yikes. Didn't know that he never completed his Scrolls-Certification course. Karsus would be one to drop out, lol.
Still, their society is founded upon the Nether Scrolls and whatever seed of arcana that Toril birthed unto its people led to Karsus. If it had been anyone else, who knows what could have happened.
I appreciate all the activity and sharing here in this thread.

Eldacar
Senior Scribe

438 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2021 : 15:49:27

I went and found the quote on Karsus and the Nether Scrolls. Google was helpful:

�Karsus has NOT read the entire Nether Scrolls. He is driven by his overweening pride/arrogance, to such an extent that if he hasn't created it on his own, it's worth nothing. If someone else has devised a clever magic, he must duplicate it ON HIS OWN (and, in his mind by definition do it 'better'). He has perused them on several occasions when 'stuck' with something he couldn't intuit or understand or develop, but is suspicious of them because he views them as an attempt by the Sarrukh to control the minds of those who read them (yes, he believes the Scrolls contain sarrukh sentience - - and may very well be correct in this belief). Karsus is all about "I am the best ever, I do it myself, I am self-made and supreme and this validates my dominance." (He's wrong, but nothing shakes this belief . . . and now, trapped forever at the moment of his death, nothing ever will. He knows he's failed, but can't move beyond the moment of that realization.)�

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11696 Posts

Posted - 01 Aug 2021 : 15:38:21

quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar

I went and found the quote on Karsus and the Nether Scrolls. Google was helpful:

�Karsus has NOT read the entire Nether Scrolls. He is driven by his overweening pride/arrogance, to such an extent that if he hasn't created it on his own, it's worth nothing. If someone else has devised a clever magic, he must duplicate it ON HIS OWN (and, in his mind by definition do it 'better'). He has perused them on several occasions when 'stuck' with something he couldn't intuit or understand or develop, but is suspicious of them because he views them as an attempt by the Sarrukh to control the minds of those who read them (yes, he believes the Scrolls contain sarrukh sentience - - and may very well be correct in this belief). Karsus is all about "I am the best ever, I do it myself, I am self-made and supreme and this validates my dominance." (He's wrong, but nothing shakes this belief . . . and now, trapped forever at the moment of his death, nothing ever will. He knows he's failed, but can't move beyond the moment of that realization.)�

So, when other people were devising spells to elevate them to immortal/godly status, whereupon they would pick a portfolio.... such as the "god of defecation" (and that guy could quickly get some people giving him prayers... fervent ones too)... he decided he'd come up with his own method and just outright replace a god.

Then as a result, they had to come up with a new rule "noone can ascend without a sponsor"..... and all the gods rolled their eyes and were like "Ao, what kind of stupid things will these mortals do next that we have to forewarn against?" and Shar was like "Can't we just kill them all and start over?".... and she kept nagging that idea until some other gods started repeating it until Ao decided to instititute "new rule, your power depends on worshippers".

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 01 Aug 2021 : 17:00:41

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar

I went and found the quote on Karsus and the Nether Scrolls. Google was helpful:

�Karsus has NOT read the entire Nether Scrolls. He is driven by his overweening pride/arrogance, to such an extent that if he hasn't created it on his own, it's worth nothing. If someone else has devised a clever magic, he must duplicate it ON HIS OWN (and, in his mind by definition do it 'better'). He has perused them on several occasions when 'stuck' with something he couldn't intuit or understand or develop, but is suspicious of them because he views them as an attempt by the Sarrukh to control the minds of those who read them (yes, he believes the Scrolls contain sarrukh sentience - - and may very well be correct in this belief). Karsus is all about "I am the best ever, I do it myself, I am self-made and supreme and this validates my dominance." (He's wrong, but nothing shakes this belief . . . and now, trapped forever at the moment of his death, nothing ever will. He knows he's failed, but can't move beyond the moment of that realization.)�

So, when other people were devising spells to elevate them to immortal/godly status, whereupon they would pick a portfolio.... such as the "god of defecation" (and that guy could quickly get some people giving him prayers... fervent ones too)... he decided he'd come up with his own method and just outright replace a god.

Then as a result, they had to come up with a new rule "noone can ascend without a sponsor"..... and all the gods rolled their eyes and were like "Ao, what kind of stupid things will these mortals do next that we have to forewarn against?" and Shar was like "Can't we just kill them all and start over?".... and she kept nagging that idea until some other gods started repeating it until Ao decided to instititute "new rule, your power depends on worshippers".

....and then Shar started nagging her worshippers to kill everyone else's worshippers so when the other gods started doing the same thing, AO decided to institute "new rule, talking directly to your worshippers will have a toll charge"....so the gods decided to only talk to their chosen. Seeing how expensive those toll charges were, the Orison network was built so then the gods could choose a plan to make talking to their worshippers less expensive. So the gods can now talk to their worhippers more than they had recently but not as often as they used to be able to. And there was much rejoicing.

PattPlays
Senior Scribe

469 Posts

Posted - 01 Aug 2021 : 17:59:43

quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar

I went and found the quote on Karsus and the Nether Scrolls. Google was helpful:

�Karsus has NOT read the entire Nether Scrolls. He is driven by his overweening pride/arrogance, to such an extent that if he hasn't created it on his own, it's worth nothing. If someone else has devised a clever magic, he must duplicate it ON HIS OWN (and, in his mind by definition do it 'better'). He has perused them on several occasions when 'stuck' with something he couldn't intuit or understand or develop, but is suspicious of them because he views them as an attempt by the Sarrukh to control the minds of those who read them (yes, he believes the Scrolls contain sarrukh sentience - - and may very well be correct in this belief). Karsus is all about "I am the best ever, I do it myself, I am self-made and supreme and this validates my dominance." (He's wrong, but nothing shakes this belief . . . and now, trapped forever at the moment of his death, nothing ever will. He knows he's failed, but can't move beyond the moment of that realization.)�

So, when other people were devising spells to elevate them to immortal/godly status, whereupon they would pick a portfolio.... such as the "god of defecation" (and that guy could quickly get some people giving him prayers... fervent ones too)... he decided he'd come up with his own method and just outright replace a god.

Then as a result, they had to come up with a new rule "noone can ascend without a sponsor"..... and all the gods rolled their eyes and were like "Ao, what kind of stupid things will these mortals do next that we have to forewarn against?" and Shar was like "Can't we just kill them all and start over?".... and she kept nagging that idea until some other gods started repeating it until Ao decided to instititute "new rule, your power depends on worshippers".

....and then Shar started nagging her worshippers to kill everyone else's worshippers so when the other gods started doing the same thing, AO decided to institute "new rule, talking directly to your worshippers will have a toll charge"....so the gods decided to only talk to their chosen. Seeing how expensive those toll charges were, the Orison network was built so then the gods could choose a plan to make talking to their worshippers less expensive. So the gods can now talk to their worhippers more than they had recently but not as often as they used to be able to. And there was much rejoicing.

*Gasp*

I have never known what instituted the abject madness that is running a campaign where the gods barely manifest anything and the party don't even know Chosen exist. The gods in their entirety (faerunian faith in general) feel like a single faction in the game-space. Anything that is primordial enough to not obey these communications rules ends up playing such a more massive role in the campaign than the pantheon does. They have to compete for screen-time with several well supported factions in the Harpers and Zhentarim et al. It really makes me think of the melancholy in a generation of priests that has never heard an answer, never met a manifestation, and that's not to mention the difficulty in learning magic with no weave and few mentors. I didn't get to play them much, but I enjoyed getting in the mindset of the halfling priestesses of Yondalla and a judge faithful of Tyr, as well as a frantic cleric of Eilistraee making a b-line for Waterdeep. The priestesses were only seen being a wedding service (Ceremony, C1) and the Judge said hymns to a literal dead god who will be back to life in a few months.) The absolute confounding thing for me to learn was that even when all these gods came back to life, it will still be two years before they begin speaking to their followers again. What emotional whiplash!
I have Loudwater's church of Silvanus (a recent development) and a temple to Lathander (who'se priesthood now has to deal with the fact that the Chosen told them Anaumator and Lathander's priests should just get along already) and I cannot wait to play these people. There is something very engaging about knowing the gods aren't going to help the Player Characters any time soon at all. Pre-1488DR forgotten realms fifth edition (Yes I know SCAG is 1491, but the campaign module events canonically can often have loose starts quite before that mark!) is a strange substance that I highly recommend trying. Just maybe avoid clerics unless you want to role-play the existential crisis that is rationalizing that your cleric and wizards are both just wild-magic wielders wearing different colored robes. Fourth edition implications with Fifth edition function. So much nonsense and I love it. Everyone is ignorant of the book plot chaos going on just over the mountains and has their own entirely separate problem with the Demon Lords. 1487, you crazy.

As for the thread itself, I am now aware that Karsus' spell was, erm, not in the faith of the great golden texts. ..I did some quick research on Weave-Anchors and.. Why does it feel like Toril should be able to have it's own weave without Mystra's help? It almost feels like Faerzress used to cover the planet and beasts and peoples could utilize it and interloping gods hid it underground and got the whole world hooked on a cheaper, more addictive, and more potentially dangerous way to do things. What exactly are the implications of non-divine weave-anchors that could have predated the Weave? If you were holding a complete set of nether scrolls in your hands and were sent to a dead world with no connection to any god of magic's weave, could you reliably perform magic within a radius? We know weave anchors can kickstart a weave back to life with proper preparation. We can assume that the shadow weave could have been elevated with it. Lolth's demon-weave could have used these things. Do they still have stupendous power on a world without a history of an official 'sponsored' weave? On that dead world I supposed, could you use the Nether Scrolls to kickstart that planet-sized network of 'natural' magic into a grid for easier magic throughout the world? What would "Toril's Biosphere's Weave" look like if allowed to grow without intervention? No weave when the project started in the days of thunder, yes?

Edited by - PattPlays on 01 Aug 2021 18:30:13

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 01 Aug 2021 : 19:36:53

For a very long time Toril did have a weave without mystra. The golden skins were the inception of the weave and they were created 30000 years ago. Mystra has only been around since just after the Fall of Netheril.

That being said, Mystra is part of the Weave and likely cannot be uncoupled without causing it to collapse again (as it did when Karsus cast his spell and magic went nuts for several decades).

It was the baetith (manipulated by spellweaver members) that did exactly as you said the gods did with faezress, they got the whole world hooked on the cheap, easy, and safe magic of the weave. It wasnt divine in nature (and to me it still isnt).

Without the weave there is only raw magic that can be accessed through ritual casting. It's much more powerful and customisable (you are not limited by anything but your own ability), but it is expensive, it has a high failure rate, and it is very dangerous (any failure could be fatal).

PattPlays
Senior Scribe

469 Posts

Posted - 01 Aug 2021 : 20:31:49

quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
It was the baetith (manipulated by spellweaver members) that did exactly as you said the gods did with faezress, they got the whole world hooked on the cheap, easy, and safe magic of the weave. It wasnt divine in nature (and to me it still isnt).

Please give me a name for the source of this information during their future research bender in Candlekeep. I want this exact line, in universe, for our 7 int 20 wis druid to see so he can feel validated.

Also it sounds like since nobody has sorcerer levels in my party, I should open Metamagic up to everyone if they start screwing around with wild magic. They've already experienced *multiple* sources of wild magic to the point where it isn't even a surprise anymore. I feel like I'm doing 4e's turf proud.

Edit: Listed source: The YYth phoenix prophecy, according to a maddenned young genasi calimshan war criminal caught raving sarcastically at perplexed Whatedvarians as they're dragged off into the next ward during the late stages of the modern Sundering.

I'm having a djiini attack loudwater on the second night. I don't have much time left with the nonsense elemental madness of Abeir being a thing so I am absolutely going to cause some chaos in the last moments of the Sundering. I need to start a thread about modern Calimshan because that big crystal prison is a confounding thing- and the Genasi "Secret Empires" surprise revolutionaries thing is new to me and it means I get to make the Renshas relevant in Loudwater one last time. Their poor High Lord..

Edited by - PattPlays on 01 Aug 2021 20:41:31

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 01 Aug 2021 : 20:58:42

Its from Jergal, Lord of the End of Everything first by George Krashos and then by Eric Boyd and George together, and from various conversations about it.

The crux of it is the spellweavers use nefarious means to make their enemies or potential rivals destroy themselves, they provide cheap and easy magic far beyond the natural development of a race and then sit back and watch them annihilate themselves (all this is from an ecology of the spellweaver article). The Golden Skins / Nether Scrolls is the end stage of that plan wherein the spellweavers manipulate the creator races into creating a planet wide magical device that provides quick and easy access to magic.

You can see from history that the plan worked perfectly many times. The sarrukh destroy themselves in civil wars and making planar enemies. The batrachi create the tearfall. The Aearee create the dragons.

There are also hints at sentience hidden in the Weave, i like to think these are members of the baetith that found a way to merge with the weave like Weave Ghosts in modern times. These sentiences merge over time. They can communicate somewhat with people who use the weave (whispers in the weave) and even manifest (see the woman in grey from Volos Guide to Magic). I believe this is what gives rise to various deities of magic in different pantheons. Mystryl is one such example, Mystra is a later one. The sentience in the weave communicates with people who then start worshipping it as a god and that belief ends up creating a god.

Also its important to realise that the Weave now is not the same as the Weave before Netheril's Fall. The Weave before Netheril's Fall collapsed when Karsus cast his spell (i think he actually tried to drain the Weave itself rather than a god). Azuth (before he became a god) had to go around and reconnect the weave anchors into a new weave (one that did not include the Nether Scrolls). This is why the new Weave is different, why it doesnt have the Netherese spells stored in it, and why it took several decades for magic to return to normal after the collapse.

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 01 Aug 2021 : 21:40:00

In the newest version of Jergal's lore, Eric and George avoided connection between the Ba'etith and Spell Weavers, with Jergal being (relativelly) far younger, only being born right before -3939 DR, and it doesn't seem Issarnathass/Arthindol/Terraseer is a Spell Weaver (being only referred as Sarrukh), or at least opposes Jergal. It isn't outright denied though.

Edited by - Baltas on 01 Aug 2021 21:44:18

PattPlays
Senior Scribe

469 Posts

Posted - 01 Aug 2021 : 21:54:36

quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

The Golden Skins / Nether Scrolls is the end stage of that plan wherein the spellweavers manipulate the creator races into creating a planet wide magical device that provides quick and easy access to magic.

We have established that Karsus' Avatar (W13) was not intended to be based on the Nether Scrolls, and that Karsus was apparently more unhinged than your ordinary Lorosse speaking maniac with their own private server. Is Karsus' Avatar in the spirit of the Nether Scrolls because we assume Karsus is a product of High Netheril which is a product of the Nether Scrolls? Or is it so wrapped up in ego that this maniac would have found a way to do it in whatever high arcane society he may have found himself in?
Whether or not a spellweaver would take credit though probably depends on if their ancestor was directly involved or not, not to mention the rarity of them addressing you at all.

quote:
[Originally posted by Gary Dallison
There are also hints at sentience hidden in the Weave, i like to think these are members of the baetith that found a way to merge with the weave like Weave Ghosts in modern times. These sentiences merge over time.

I'm guessing the goddess of magic dying multiple times didn't exactly keep them sane through all of that.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 01 Aug 2021 : 22:04:47

These weave spirits had to attune themselves to the Weave (certain races have done similar things in the distant past - elves, and dragons, and i suspect sarrukh), then they merged with it.

Karsus i dont think did any such thing. I also dont believe he would ever trust anyone or anything enough to merge with it. He's just too paranoid.

The spellweavers would never reveal their hand in any of this, it was their secret way of eliminating enemies without ever having to fight them. By making themselves known in any way would make themselves a target.

Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2443 Posts

Posted - 02 Aug 2021 : 01:15:39

quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Without the weave there is only raw magic that can be accessed through ritual casting. It's much more powerful and customisable (you are not limited by anything but your own ability), but it is expensive, it has a high failure rate, and it is very dangerous (any failure could be fatal).

Or by being a dragon. They can draw the natural magic of the plane itself without any intermediaries and, it seems, without any of the risks as well. And I guess this also applies to any dragon-blooded spellcaster who draws its magic from their dragon heritage.

(Sources: Draconomicon 2e, Dragon #388, "Old Souls: Heroes of Legend Reborn", Fizban's Treasury of Dragons)

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 02 Aug 2021 01:33:12

TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 02 Aug 2021 : 14:28:48

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Without the weave there is only raw magic that can be accessed through ritual casting. It's much more powerful and customisable (you are not limited by anything but your own ability), but it is expensive, it has a high failure rate, and it is very dangerous (any failure could be fatal).

Or by being a dragon. They can draw the natural magic of the plane itself without any intermediaries and, it seems, without any of the risks as well. And I guess this also applies to any dragon-blooded spellcaster who draws its magic from their dragon heritage.

(Sources: Draconomicon 2e, Dragon #388, "Old Souls: Heroes of Legend Reborn", Fizban's Treasury of Dragons)

Well, combining this with what Gary said about the Weave being created 30,000 years ago, wouldn't that mean that any system of magic created before then would necessarily not have a dependency on the Weave? If so, the Rune Magic of giants would fall into that category, right? Would there be any others?

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