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Baptor
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Mar 2018 : 06:21:40
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Hello scribes,
Been running the Realms since 98. Recently in my 5e game we did a "soft reboot" using some time travel and such to "fix" some of the timeline stuff we didn't like. We didn't totally remove anything because it's a small part of our own stories. So for example the Spellplague happened but it didn't happen because Mystra "died" and it was also much smaller in scope.
One thing I want to "correct" is the Time of Troubles. We like to keep the gods distant in our Realms and the idea of "gods on earth" is really jarring. I have a hundred ideas but none of them seem perfect and I wanted to see if anyone else "revised" the TOT in their Realms or if you had any ideas.
One idea I had was that the gods didn't literally come to Toril but that - in order to carry out a kind of godswar - possessed certain powerful worshipers who were already high level characters. These possessed people got a boost to their abilities and led armies in a series of terribly destructive wars as each avatar tried to take out the other in order to steal divine influence. No Ao involved. The war ended when the mortals - fed up with the wars - rose up against the remaining avatars and banished them back to the Planes. Something (i'm not sure what) was put into place to ensure it never happened again.
My main beef is not the events themselves, just that they are so "god-centric." I want the mortals to be the movers and shakers in the Realms, not puppets of the gods. So in my Realms, mortals are responsible for the Spellplague.
The issue with the Avatar Crisis is that it's so tied to the gods it's hard to work out a story where mortals are somehow responsible for gods coming to the world and nearly destroying it.
Thoughts?
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Jesus said, "I am the Ressurection and the Life. Anyone who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and those who live and believe in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" |
Edited by - Baptor on 27 Mar 2018 06:22:11
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1486 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2018 : 06:41:45
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Why would the gods want a godswar? It's risky enough to maneuver their own servants around, but directly stepping in to muck around in the Prime is unfeasible, not just for the expenditure of divine power but also because it'd force their rivals to step in and deal with the mess. Bane generally has better things to do with his time than punch Shadowdale to bits.
I would recommend looking at Pillars of Eternity, where one god directly intervening to stop the manipulations of a more subtle deity sent everything straight to Hell. Or Pathfinder, with the death of Aroden.
Or just ignore the Time of Troubles entirely. |
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Baptor
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2018 : 08:06:30
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Why would the gods want a godswar?
That's exactly my problem. It doesn't make sense.
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
I would recommend looking at Pillars of Eternity, where one god directly intervening to stop the manipulations of a more subtle deity sent everything straight to Hell. Or Pathfinder, with the death of Aroden.
You know I played POE but never quite understood that story about blowing up a god. I will go back and try to read up on the lore.
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Or just ignore the Time of Troubles entirely.
Ah would that I could! As I mentioned earlier some of our own beloved stories tie into those RSEs. I can re-imagine them but some kind of gods-related disaster has to stay in place for it to make sense. |
Jesus said, "I am the Ressurection and the Life. Anyone who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and those who live and believe in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6354 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11704 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2018 : 12:35:26
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| Actually, I used the Time of Troubles in an unusual way. This was 17 years ago, and some theories on godly interaction have been revised with time, but I assumed any "god" would be cast down, and thus demon lords like Orcus who were "gods" were also cast down. Thus, I had my players playing through the battle at the Ford of Goliad in 1357 between Zhengyi and King Virdin Bloodfeathers (I didn't have them in the mass battle, they were in a group sent to secure a crossing of the Ford and hold it against any goblinoids, etc... that would try to cross). I then had it that my players were leveling up in the Baronies of Polten, Ostel, Morov, and Soravia while in the background they heard stories of the uprising in Bloodstone. Meanwhile, when Gareth and company set off to get the wand of Orcus, Orcus was actually occupying an avatar on Toril (however, he ALSO existed in the outer planes, but he could not interact with Toril as a god). Thus, I had my party take on the avatar of Orcus (which I had inhabiting a duergar... which seemed a good idea at the time... now not as much). The player that killed Orcus ended up becoming semi-divine (or cursed?). It was soon after this that I had the ToT end. I then later had them somehow or other actually end up in the astral near Orcus' dead body with some githyanki raiding it, and a mysterious wizard named Velsharoon nearby who offered them aid in clearing out the githyanki. The players never did put that two and two together, for none of them were THAT into the lore, and I secretly found that hilarious. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2018 : 13:53:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptor
Hello scribes,
Been running the Realms since 98. Recently in my 5e game we did a "soft reboot" using some time travel and such to "fix" some of the timeline stuff we didn't like. We didn't totally remove anything because it's a small part of our own stories. So for example the Spellplague happened but it didn't happen because Mystra "died" and it was also much smaller in scope.
One thing I want to "correct" is the Time of Troubles. We like to keep the gods distant in our Realms and the idea of "gods on earth" is really jarring. I have a hundred ideas but none of them seem perfect and I wanted to see if anyone else "revised" the TOT in their Realms or if you had any ideas.
One idea I had was that the gods didn't literally come to Toril but that - in order to carry out a kind of godswar - possessed certain powerful worshipers who were already high level characters. These possessed people got a boost to their abilities and led armies in a series of terribly destructive wars as each avatar tried to take out the other in order to steal divine influence. No Ao involved. The war ended when the mortals - fed up with the wars - rose up against the remaining avatars and banished them back to the Planes. Something (i'm not sure what) was put into place to ensure it never happened again.
My main beef is not the events themselves, just that they are so "god-centric." I want the mortals to be the movers and shakers in the Realms, not puppets of the gods. So in my Realms, mortals are responsible for the Spellplague.
The issue with the Avatar Crisis is that it's so tied to the gods it's hard to work out a story where mortals are somehow responsible for gods coming to the world and nearly destroying it.
Thoughts?
Personally, I don't see a way to really separate the ToT from the gods. The entire intent of the ToT -- the reason it was dreamed up by the designers -- was to explain edition changes to the Realms, most particularly the loss of the assassin class, which was something that didn't make the transition from 1E to 2E.
It's hard to explain the loss of classes and changes to magic and other setting-wide changes without involving the gods.
Now, if the objective was to re-spin the Spellplague, I've had a couple of ideas there. But taking the gods out of an event focused on the gods? You might as well have a Super Bowl without any football teams. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Mar 2018 15:08:38 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2018 : 16:14:17
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@Baptor - before I had even finished reading your post, the idea of it being more of a 'War of the Chosen' popped into my head, and then as I read further, that's precisely what you seem to have done. Thus, Great Idea!
As for the 'why' - blame it on the Dark Three again. Lets say they DID steal the Tablets of Fate, but only because it contained information about an ancient (primordial) relic/weapon. The weapon was a 'Doomsday' type device, and after the Dawn War, The Gods decided to shatter the weapon into smaller parts and hide them (YES, I realize this has been done before, but its not for a novel - its for this dude's homegame!) The only place where all the 'hiding spots' were recorded was in the Tablets of Fate.
So they find out these places, and then they 'energize' some of their followers to collect them (because as per the homebrewed rules here, gods CANNOT 'walk the earth'). And of course, some of them are buried in enemy territory, or under other nation's capital cities, etc.
Then, other gods catch wind of this, and move to stop them, also empowering followers to lead armies and/or heroes to thwart the Dark Three's plans. However, these gods only know individual hiding-spots (being the gods that hid various pieces), and no one god knows anything about the others. They could work together and share information, except for one thing - they don't trust each other. They don't want to restart the dawn war all over again, and some of the gods looking for the pieces are also other evil gods, aside from the Dark Three (and a few of them have already thrown in their lot with them, but no-one is exactly sure who those 'betrayer gods' might be). So for once, evil is 'united' (somewhat), and good is not. Otherwise, the vast array of other gods should have been able to quickly stop the Dark Three's minions, but because they lack all the information and are not working together, instead we get a psuedo-ToT effect.
And, of course, you could even have your players play through this - having them find clues from the various churches as to where pieces are hidden. There should also be other items hidden away with the relics, so that your players get some loot (and the other gods involved also get a boost if they find them; for example, a piece hidden away by Talos may have also had an armory full of magical swords to go with it). So as the conflict escalates, and more items are found, the power-level of the war increases significantly. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1486 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2018 : 17:33:46
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It...wouldn't really benefit the three?
Bane and Bhaal, maybe, assuming that Bane could use that knowledge to wreak fear and Bhaal would use the weapon to kill and kill and kill, but Myrkul wouldn't gain any benefit from it. He's the Lord of the Dead, and he's not interested in a doomsday apocalypse scenario. He'd find it mildly amusing, but he wouldn't go out of his way to propagate it.
No, pinning everything on the Three is simply too cheap and easy.
I would suggest that the Time of Troubles is what happens when a quarrel between gods spills out to the Prime. A god fully manifesting on the Prime is a terrible thing, and the scars it creates are many and long-lasting. The other powers are playing damage control, unwilling to manifest on the Prime in fear of destabilizing the Realms even more. Perhaps the destabilizing nature of a true deity's influence forces Myrkul to shut the gates of Bone Castle and bar death from the Realms as the cycle of life, death and rebirth is disrupted. Perhaps Mystra holds the Weave together to prevent a manifested deity from disrupting its manifestation on the Prime. Perhaps as part of the price the mortals who expel the warring deities have to pay, they are forever beyond the senses of the gods; no god will hear their prayers, no power will take them on their deaths. |
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Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe
Canada
124 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2018 : 19:43:20
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Or just ignore the Time of Troubles entirely.
My girlfriend has actually pointed out to me that she finds Ao is unnecessary to the setting, as he contributes very little and whenever he actually does do something (ToT, the Sundering), much of what is done ends up simply being undone by powers weaker than himself.
Essentially, her argument was that he wasn't in fact as powerful as his Overgod status would imply.
Any thoughts? (I hope I'm not treading on grounds covered in another thread) |
"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline." |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6354 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2018 : 20:27:28
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I think a better analogy would be having the super bowl without the highly paid superstar football players taking part (for those that have seen the file "The Replacements" this may not be a bad thing).
So if you want to remove the gods then here is how I did it. Unfortunately I never made it to be interactive but I have an idea on how you could do such a thing.
So in 1357 Pasha Abon Duum of Manshaka disappears in mysterious circumstances after attempting to claim the power of the gods. I don't remember where I got this from but its a canon event. My idea is that he got his hands on one of the Nether Scrolls and attempted to use a variant on Karsus' Avatar spell to drain it of power.
The result is that the spell attempts to drain the weave and it goes a bit nuts as the Nether Scroll tries to recreate itself (as they always do because they are indestructible).
So we have magic getting progressively more unusable across Faerun for the best part of a year.
The Church of Bane attempts to capitalise upon this event by using Cloak Societies (spreaders of information and misinformation as detailed in Cloak and Dagger) to spread rumours among the rich and common folk alike that Mystra has perished and the weave has collapsed.
In retaliation the Harpers and the Church of Mystra use their own contacts to spread rumours that the Dark Three have all perished.
The rumours that they spread don't really matter as they are all different in different parts of Faerun.
A second rate scholar and author of all things divine (I picked one in Cormyr or Sembia I think, I can't remember his name right now) used this magical chaos and rumour spread to publish his own series of novellas about a war amongst the gods and the death of Mystra and the Dark Three (he had to hurriedly adapt it to events) and he hired an adventuring group (containing Midnight, Kelemvor, Cyric, etc) to travel to various sites in Faerun and stage certain events.
The rumours that are now spreading like wildfire have real events to back them up and the common people start to believe them (belief shapes the gods in a non god centric model not the other way around). Unscrupulous magic users and powerful individuals use the spreading chaos to their own advantage to settle scores, commit murders, steal wealth land and power, etc. The magical chaos doesn't affect everyone all the time, it is sporadic.
A necromancer with a grudge (pick one or make on up) launches an attack on waterdeep using a horde of undead, hoping that Khelben will be affected by the magical chaos. Two mages enlarge and polymorph themselves (one into a knight another into a lion headed man) and have a fight in Tantras. Some mage duel creates the helmlands, another creates the poisoning at some bridge in the Western Heartlands, etc, etc.
By the time magic is restored the mass hysteria has swept across Faerun and people now firmly believe that Mystra, Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul have perished. The Harpers come up with the idea that Mystra was reborn once again using Midnight as a vessel. The Banites use a similar idea with Cyric. The Bhaalites are mostly dead after a disastrous war with assassins in Calimshan. THe Myrkulites don't care and remain in their crypt menacing people into paying them to bury the dead and stop them coming back to life.
So that's how I played it. No gods were actually involved but the common people are 100% convinced a godswar occurred and the gods walked the earth (thanks to rumours, mass hysteria, and the power of printed media). All the events that happened in the canon events happen in the alternative version (so no extensive rewriting of the setting is required) but the actual reason behind these events is different.
To make it more playable for your party you could have them trace the adventurers hired by the scholar who is publicising his novellas about the godswar. If it were me I would make these adventurers rather mercenary in nature and run around poisoning rivers, staging large battles and ignoring the casualties they cause around them.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2018 : 21:17:58
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
It...wouldn't really benefit the three?
Bane and Bhaal, maybe, assuming that Bane could use that knowledge to wreak fear and Bhaal would use the weapon to kill and kill and kill, but Myrkul wouldn't gain any benefit from it. He's the Lord of the Dead, and he's not interested in a doomsday apocalypse scenario. He'd find it mildly amusing, but he wouldn't go out of his way to propagate it.
No, pinning everything on the Three is simply too cheap and easy.
I would suggest that the Time of Troubles is what happens when a quarrel between gods spills out to the Prime. A god fully manifesting on the Prime is a terrible thing, and the scars it creates are many and long-lasting. The other powers are playing damage control, unwilling to manifest on the Prime in fear of destabilizing the Realms even more. Perhaps the destabilizing nature of a true deity's influence forces Myrkul to shut the gates of Bone Castle and bar death from the Realms as the cycle of life, death and rebirth is disrupted. Perhaps Mystra holds the Weave together to prevent a manifested deity from disrupting its manifestation on the Prime. Perhaps as part of the price the mortals who expel the warring deities have to pay, they are forever beyond the senses of the gods; no god will hear their prayers, no power will take them on their deaths.
That was a 'Broad strokes' kind of thing.
You can spin the 'segmented MacGuffin' anyway you want. You can even make it a book like the Nether Scrolls, except containing Overgod-level magic (and just like the Nether Scrolls, having some of the pages might provide a boost, but having all of it is what they are really after - perhaps even Overgodhood itself).
I was actually thinking it could be the 'Regalia of the Forgotten God' (I do so love my Regalia's... maybe its because I just finished Noragami?) It could be items that had to do with the death of the human Creator Deity mentioned in 4e (that everyone has forgotten). Something managed to kill that primal power, and since Bane is doing the 'multisheric' thing these days, it might be something he'd be interested in (knowing how to utterly destroy an archtype so that it can never come back).
You can really spin it any way you want it - however it works for his campaign. It doesn't even have to be the Dark Three, and they might not even be Faerūnian (but they should at least be Torilian). Think of it as giant, divine 'Scavenger Hunt', with a whole bunch of Exalted (psuedo-Chosen) searching for their pieces of the puzzle, or whatever.
Anything has to be better than the canon version. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2018 : 23:06:51
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| I never understand why would they need to change so much in the setting in order to change some gameplay issues. I mean if a RSE was intended for story and lore reasons is great but why would you need for example TOT in order to remove the Assassin class from the game. Just say it is not in the new edition and be done with it. Not saying that I dont like the TOT but just seems a bit weird to change the lore or setting JUST to modify the gameplay. Its like an MMO changing all the quests and stories in the game world after a patch that fixed a part of the gameplay. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2445 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2018 : 00:47:48
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quote:
Originally posted by farinal
I never understand why would they need to change so much in the setting in order to change some gameplay issues. I mean if a RSE was intended for story and lore reasons is great but why would you need for example TOT in order to remove the Assassin class from the game. Just say it is not in the new edition and be done with it. Not saying that I dont like the TOT but just seems a bit weird to change the lore or setting JUST to modify the gameplay. Its like an MMO changing all the quests and stories in the game world after a patch that fixed a part of the gameplay.
Didn't this happened because they wanted to minimize the critics on the game because of the Satanic Panic of the 80s? I mean, they also did other stupid things to D&D at the time.
quote:
Originally posted by Balmar Foghaven
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Or just ignore the Time of Troubles entirely.
My girlfriend has actually pointed out to me that she finds Ao is unnecessary to the setting, as he contributes very little and whenever he actually does do something (ToT, the Sundering), much of what is done ends up simply being undone by powers weaker than himself.
She is right. Because Ao is just an editorial tool. He didn't existed in the original Realms, they just created him to justify the ToT, and now they use him to justify whatever editorial change they want to implement. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2018 : 03:54:16
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| I have poe.. never could finish pillars of eternity... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2018 : 03:54:26
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quote:
Originally posted by farinal
I never understand why would they need to change so much in the setting in order to change some gameplay issues. I mean if a RSE was intended for story and lore reasons is great but why would you need for example TOT in order to remove the Assassin class from the game. Just say it is not in the new edition and be done with it. Not saying that I dont like the TOT but just seems a bit weird to change the lore or setting JUST to modify the gameplay. Its like an MMO changing all the quests and stories in the game world after a patch that fixed a part of the gameplay.
Because some people like continuity, and want an explanation for when something changes in the setting. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2445 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2018 : 04:18:53
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| I find a better explanation to re-skin rogues (or thieves, I guess?) or dex-fighters as assassins and be done with it. There is no need for continuity if that continuity makes no sense at all. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Baptor
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2018 : 06:00:24
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Wow, thanks for all the replies so far fellow Scribes!
@Markustay - Chosen! Why didn't I think of that? I thought of avatars but chosen are way better because it can still be mortals driving the plot - even if those mortals are all super powered from gods. I can also use this idea to get RID of chosen after the Sundering. My idea is to say that mortals serving the various gods found a spell or artifact that allowed them to breach the Firmament enough to allow gods to directly imbue them with a portion of their power, creating the first chosen. During this time the first chosen were numerous and very powerful, resulting in the wars. Eventually most of this first order were killed off and the Firmament healed somewhat, limiting the power of chosen - though the world was still lousy with them. This continued until the time of the Spellplague - when one or more chosen decided to go back to the wound in the Firmament and split it wide open - allowing their gods to flood them with superpowers so they could rule the earth. This backfired as the wound caused the Weave to buckle and snap apart - resulting in the Spellplague. In its wake the bond that allowed the creation of Chosen was cut - turning all chosen back into normal mortals. Once the Sundering happened and all of this was healed - the time of the chosen ended for good. Thanks again I don't think I'd have ever made that connection otherwise!
@Wooly Rupert - To each their own, but I really find the decision to "blow up the world" in order to explain changes in the game rules to be lazy writing IMHO. As others have mentioned you can just play a thief class and say you're an Assassin. Assassin is more of a job than a class - heck a wizard can be an assassin. Other editions had better reasons - such as the massive changes in 4th edition - but as Salvatore said - there were much better ways to handle that than what they did. Still if you liked the storyline as-is, then absolutely take the path of least resistance. Heavens know I would if I could - I just can't stand the RSEs as written though.
@dazzlerdal - That's a compelling story, but I've never liked the whole - it was all a dream explanation. That's not technically what you're describing, but in my head it might as well be. Still you put a lot of work into that story and if it works for you then go for it. |
Jesus said, "I am the Ressurection and the Life. Anyone who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and those who live and believe in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2018 : 09:55:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptor
@Wooly Rupert - To each their own, but I really find the decision to "blow up the world" in order to explain changes in the game rules to be lazy writing IMHO. As others have mentioned you can just play a thief class and say you're an Assassin. Assassin is more of a job than a class - heck a wizard can be an assassin. Other editions had better reasons - such as the massive changes in 4th edition - but as Salvatore said - there were much better ways to handle that than what they did. Still if you liked the storyline as-is, then absolutely take the path of least resistance. Heavens know I would if I could - I just can't stand the RSEs as written though.
I didn't say I liked the storyline as is. I'm saying I don't see how you can explain setting-wide changes without the gods being involved. |
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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe
Australia
243 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2018 : 12:34:47
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I could have sworn I'd written this up here before, but I can't find it. This sort of thing is what I love doing. So here's the canon in my games for the Godswar/Time of Troubles (as would be described by those in the know in 1491 DR):
It is known among scholars (although not widely discussed) that in 1375 DR the priests of Faerun lost the ability to perform magic through their prayers (and speculation and conflicting rumors exist about whether Kara-Tur, Zakhara or the other lands of Toril were affected). Most priests tried to keep it quiet, but eventually rumors started circulating about the gods not answering the prayers of the priests. Some of the religions and cults took advantage of the situation to wipe out the clergy of faiths they had grudges against, wanted to replace or otherwise see destroyed. The common people began talking about gods dying and it became a time of trouble.
Peculiarly there were cults that had not been worshipped in recent memory that arose during the confusion. Either from fear or desperation worshippers began flocking to the leaders of these new faiths. Most scholars assume they were long forgotten religions long forgotten with some going so far as to writing written great treaties on the ancient kingdoms and empires which had practiced these faiths. However little physical evidence supports these claims. An explanation that has even scanter evidence is that the cults were in fact from another land beyond Faerun (and perhaps beyond Toril itself) and they used the confusion to elevate themselves into the mainstream eye.
What caused the priests to lose their spells is not widely known. In truth a cult was responsible. At the time the cult called itself Children of the Lost World. Their teachings was that their leader was in fact from another world and had been reborn on Toril in mortal skin who remembered his past life. Each of his followers were supposedly also reincarnated mortals who had simply forgotten their previous life of this other world. He taught that the gods were in fact tyrants whose clergy existed solely to blackmail and threaten people to empower these false gods. In 1357 DR his forces activated powerful artifacts that dated back to the Age of the Creator Races. When the cult activated these artifacts it caused Faerun to move out of phase with the rest of reality which severed the connection between the Astral Plane and Toril. The aim of the cult leader had been to cause Toril to journey to another world where the people could finally be free of the false gods and their clergy. This did not fully happen, although the artifacts moved the affected land away enough from the physical universe to stop priestly spells from working.
The artifacts, which were never intended to be run for extended periods of time, eventually blew up. Whether it was from the strain of keeping Faerun out of phase or the result of heroes is unknown. The explosions of blue flame damaged the Weave itself and creating wild magic zones. Those who saw these explosions attributed them to the gods battling each other.
With the artifacts destroyed the priests could once again cast spells. The cult leader of the Children of the Lost World along with many of his closest followers presumably died as Faerun returned to phase with the rest of reality, although one obscure cult claims that he is simply lost between worlds and will once again return to lead the faithful to the promised land. The cult disbanded for the most part, although one group of cultists went on to form a terrorist organisation that went by the name of: Order of the Blue Flame. Their greatest achievement would not be known for many years. But today it is known by a single and dreaded name: The Spellplague. |
DM of the Realms: A blog for my Forgotten Realms adventures. |
Edited by - JohnLynch on 28 Mar 2018 12:39:52 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1266 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2018 : 13:32:47
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| Never understood the need to "explain" rule changes in the lore. So there is no assassin class in the RPG. Big deal. There are still fighters, rogues, multi-classes, mages, psions, etc that kill other people for money and use poisons. No need to have ALL OF BHAAL'S followers die overnight so that another god (Bane) can be more powerful. So ridiculous. The Avatar trilogy is not the Realms' best writing. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2018 : 14:17:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by farinal
I never understand why would they need to change so much in the setting in order to change some gameplay issues. I mean if a RSE was intended for story and lore reasons is great but why would you need for example TOT in order to remove the Assassin class from the game. Just say it is not in the new edition and be done with it. Not saying that I dont like the TOT but just seems a bit weird to change the lore or setting JUST to modify the gameplay. Its like an MMO changing all the quests and stories in the game world after a patch that fixed a part of the gameplay.
Because some people like continuity, and want an explanation for when something changes in the setting.
That was not an in-world change, that was a change in a game. I don't need to rewrite the Realms in order to use them with a different system. They don't need to rewrite the Realms because now mages can cast 1 more spell per day.
The removal of "Assassin" as a character-class doesn't imply that actual assassins magically disappear from the setting. That assumption simply makes no sense. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2018 : 14:36:15
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I'm with Irennan. I've always loathed Deus Ex Machina in game settings. It's particularly annoying when it's done as an excuse to explain changes in mechanics. The fact that it was primarily the Avatar Trilogy that saw FR novels devolved into "Drizzt or Chosen or RSE: Pick one" was the main reason I lost interest in reading them.
[and is probably the sort of misunderstood focus group feedback that leads to things like 4e...] |
Edited by - BlackAce on 28 Mar 2018 14:39:07 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2018 : 14:43:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by farinal
I never understand why would they need to change so much in the setting in order to change some gameplay issues. I mean if a RSE was intended for story and lore reasons is great but why would you need for example TOT in order to remove the Assassin class from the game. Just say it is not in the new edition and be done with it. Not saying that I dont like the TOT but just seems a bit weird to change the lore or setting JUST to modify the gameplay. Its like an MMO changing all the quests and stories in the game world after a patch that fixed a part of the gameplay.
Because some people like continuity, and want an explanation for when something changes in the setting.
That was not an in-world change, that was a change in a game. I don't need to rewrite the Realms in order to use them with a different system. They don't need to rewrite the Realms because now mages can cast 1 more spell per day.
The removal of "Assassin" as a character-class doesn't imply that actual assassins magically disappear from the setting. That assumption simply makes no sense.
Assassin was no longer an available class. That's a change to the setting.
There were also changes to how some spells work. This, too, was a global change.
There were changes with other classes, as well -- particularly the druid and the thief-acrobat.
Like it or not, the published Realms is a game setting. When something changes in the game, it changes in the setting. And at the time this was happening, continuity was very, very important to the setting -- the designers and writers of the time felt that making large-scale changes without any explanation at all destroyed the verisimilitude of the setting.
Sadly, this is no longer the case. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2018 : 14:48:10
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
I'm with Irennan. I've always loathed Deus Ex Machina in game settings. It's particularly annoying when it's done as an excuse to explain changes in mechanics. The fact that it was primarily the Avatar Trilogy that saw FR novels devolved into "Drizzt or Chosen or RSE: Pick one" was the main reason I lost interest in reading them.
[and is probably the sort of misunderstood focus group feedback that leads to things like 4e...]
I wouldn't blame the RSE craze or the hyper-focus on a few characters on the ToT. Look at what came out afterward, in terms of novels and source material. We got a gradually-increasing focus on some characters, but that was it. The RSE of the week trend didn't start until 3E (conveniently for WotC, after they claimed that didn't explain the changes to the setting with an RSE because fans didn't like RSEs), and the hyper-focus on a handful of established characters was also a much later development. Both things were WotC saying, "Hey, this sells more than other stuff. So screw creating something new that may become just as popular, we're going to stick with what we know is popular right now and keep pushing it until people want to vomit!" |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2018 : 15:03:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by farinal
I never understand why would they need to change so much in the setting in order to change some gameplay issues. I mean if a RSE was intended for story and lore reasons is great but why would you need for example TOT in order to remove the Assassin class from the game. Just say it is not in the new edition and be done with it. Not saying that I dont like the TOT but just seems a bit weird to change the lore or setting JUST to modify the gameplay. Its like an MMO changing all the quests and stories in the game world after a patch that fixed a part of the gameplay.
Because some people like continuity, and want an explanation for when something changes in the setting.
That was not an in-world change, that was a change in a game. I don't need to rewrite the Realms in order to use them with a different system. They don't need to rewrite the Realms because now mages can cast 1 more spell per day.
The removal of "Assassin" as a character-class doesn't imply that actual assassins magically disappear from the setting. That assumption simply makes no sense.
Assassin was no longer an available class. That's a change to the setting.
There were also changes to how some spells work. This, too, was a global change.
There were changes with other classes, as well -- particularly the druid and the thief-acrobat.
Like it or not, the published Realms is a game setting. When something changes in the game, it changes in the setting. And at the time this was happening, continuity was very, very important to the setting -- the designers and writers of the time felt that making large-scale changes without any explanation at all destroyed the verisimilitude of the setting.
Sadly, this is no longer the case.
I don't agree with this. The story should not bend to game mechanics, the game mechanics should enhance the story. If you change the setting for every rule change, then you get 4e FR. It's not good worldbuilding IMHO.
Assassins as a game class don't change the setting. Light weapon-wielding, stealthy people who use poisons and kill for money aren't going anywhere. I could also run FR as a classless system.
Besides, by that logic, if you can't build something with a game system, then that something shouldn't be in the world, which is pretty weird tbh. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 28 Mar 2018 15:04:07 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2018 : 15:36:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I don't agree with this. The story should not bend to game mechanics, the game mechanics should enhance the story. If you change the setting for every rule change, then you get 4e FR. It's not good worldbuilding IMHO.
The published Realms is and always has been a GAME setting published by a GAME company -- fiction was a secondary concern, as we've been painfully aware, the last few years.
Game settings have to change with the game, or you can't use them. It's just as simple as that.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Assassins as a game class don't change the setting. Light weapon-wielding, stealthy people who use poisons and kill for money aren't going anywhere. I could also run FR as a classless system.
Assassins as a class don't change the setting, true... But if assassins as a class do not exist in the game, they can't exist in a published setting that is an extension of that game. Obviously, killers for hire can and will still exist; they just can't be built as a class that has that sole function and no other.
And as I've also pointed out, it wasn't just assassins -- those were just the most notable change.
And just because you can run the Realms a certain way or with a certain ruleset, it doesn't mean that's what the publisher intended. I could run the Realms with Pathfinder, but I'm pretty sure no one at WotC would be happy with that concept.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Besides, by that logic, if you can't build something with a game system, then that something shouldn't be in the world, which is pretty weird tbh.
What's weird about saying that something not supported by the game isn't supported in a setting defined by that game? I can't build a BattleMech with D&D rules -- is it weird that I can't have a BattleMech in the Realms? If I can figure out how to build a D&D Jedi, can I then have one in the Realms?
I'm not saying that I think the Time of Troubles was a great story or anything like that. What I am saying is that game settings have to follow the rules of the game they support, and if the rules change, the setting has to change as well. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 28 Mar 2018 15:39:19 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2018 : 18:58:13
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@Wooly - while I first have to make the disclaimer of 'to each their own' (everyone is going to have different opinions about whats important), as far as I was and am concerned, Assassins were stupid to begin with. The way they were handled in K-T was much better; the Yakuza class HAD TO BE a another class first - that was their 'day job'. No-one goes around saying they are a spy or assassin. Thus, to me, they could have just hand-waved that and I would have been happy. The point was that they wanted everyone to create new characters for the new rules anyway, so if converting older characters wasn't supposed to be a thing, then explaining-away legacy characters is also not a thing. Just say all those old NPCs (and any PC in your game) were rogues who specialized in 'Murder, Inc.'
And after it was all said an done, there were STILL assassins in the Realms - the Fortress of the Old Man even got its own novel - Sentinelspire. 'Assassin' isn't a race, its a job description, and saying that job doesn't exist anymore is idiotic (and the only thing worse was making it its own sub-class at one point). Now, getting rid of or adding races is major lore problem, usually, unless they can be inserted softly. Here, they dropped the ball as well: 3e already had drogaonborn, and when they wanted to make them a major player-race in 4e, it was all setup already... but then they completely changed their backstory (to make it more generic).
In EVERY SINGLE CASE where 'they' (people in charge) decided to change the lore to fit the rules, 'they' totally and completely screwed it up. We, the fans, have come up with much BETTER explanations, time and again, then they ever could. And THAT is why they shouldn't even bother - if you can't do something right, just leave it the hell alone. And I know you know this, Wooly, because you yourself have brought up the Thunder-Blessing numerous times. Ball = dropped (EVERY TIME).
I can think of at least three ways to link the old, existing lore to Abeir right off the top of my head (like the Shalarin, for example), and instead they did NOT do that - they decided to NOT try and link it to any previous lore, even though there were some 'mysteries' within the setting lore that Abeir could have been tied to. So what is worse - them not bothering to even try and explain-away what they did, or them providing us with craptastic reasons and god-awful (pun-intended) storylines to explain it?
I almost feel they made the RIGHT decision in the way they handled 4e, because whatever they came up with we would have just complained about... and probably rightfully so.
Eric(Boyd) and I had a nice conversation while we working on some stuff together about this topic, because I didn't feel even some of the stuff 'the old guard' (the designers we DO love and respect) made the right decisions, and on some of my points he had to agree with me... in hindsight. He admitted that some pieces of lore probably should be tossed out, and others 'fixed', while others should just be 'ignored' moving forward. But then he stunned me - "Who gets to decide?" If he and I - who agreed on most things - couldn't even come up with 'the perfect list', how can anyone do that? No two people are going to agree and what should be explained and what should get hand-waved. Its just not going to happen.
So to bring this back-around, I give you the assassins as an example. I never liked them (conceptually), and were glad they got rid of them. Had they just ignored their disappearance and never explained it, I (personally) would NOT have cared one bit. But a LOT of other people would have. So if I - in all my glorious, perfect splendor (GAG!) - could be 'fallible', so could every single designer who ever worked on the Realms, INCLUDING Ed Greenwood. In other words, Eric made me realize that MY 'perfect vision of the Realms' was never going to be anyone else's, and therein lies the conundrum of game-setting design. You have to try and guess which thing is going to please the greatest amount of people, because at the end of the day, the idea is to sell products, and you can't worry about the minority who aren't going to be happy.
Unfortunately, they can be wrong about who the 'majority' is (especially if they are on the other side of that fence). 4e is a perfect example of that. And I don't think the ToT was as wildly unpopular as folks here at CK consider it - we ourselves are a minority. Because if the Avatar Crisis - which ushered-in 2e - was so terrible, how the hell did The Forgotten Realms still go on to become the most popular RPG setting EVER? 2e ran circles around 1e in popularity. I think many of us have missed a big piece of one of Ed's most basic premises - FR is NOT a psuedo-Medieval world. Not even close, actually. Its an ancient, Time of Legends stye world that just happens to have slightly advanced tech for its cultural level (probably thanks to the dwarves & elves, because Ed, even at a tender age, was smart enough to realize these 'elder races' would have changed the course of history).
Think of most of Faerūn as ancient Greece (we DO have many more 'city-states' than we do kingdoms) or Rome, but with better tech. Heck, we actually HAVE ancient Egypt! The 'flavor' of the setting is closer to Glorantha (Runequest) than it is Greyhawk, but Glorantha was a bronze-age society. Another good example would be the world of Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser - Newhon. An ancient, crumbly world with lots of ruins and legendary monsters. THAT was Ed's flavor. Not serfs and knights of Camelot. THIS is why the gods actually DO belong interacting with folks, because they did so in those settings, both fictional and mythical. The gods are VERY MUCH real, and they could knock at your door late one night looking for a hot meal (Odin). Thats the premise of The Realms, and maybe without knowing it, its why so many folks fell in love with it. It feels like it has its own mythology. So if you want a godless world with kings and knights in shining armor and not tons of world-changing magic being thrown around, there are literally hundreds of those generic settings to choose from. But the Realms was never that. The Realms is a world where guys like Hercules, Perseus, and Odysseus could make a difference - a world where heroes can challenge the gods, and if they are lucky, maybe even defeat them.
And if you haven't noticed, this is why 'gunnes' feel so wrong in the Realms. Lots of other, very popular settings have them. they don't actually make a big difference, over-all (not at that low tech-lvel). Warcraft is a popular series, and it even has (dwarven) tanks and (gnomish) gyrocopters! Pathfinder also has guns. Renaissance-level technology feels wrong because culturally, FR is 'ancient world', even if their metallurgy and what-not does not make it seem so. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Mar 2018 19:08:59 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2018 : 19:20:40
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Honestly, I didn't like assassins as a class, either, and I wasn't unhappy to see the end of them.
I think, though, that TSR would have been better off leaving existing members of the assassin class, and just saying that their abilities came from Bhaal and with no Bhaal, no one else could do those things. Maybe the existing Assassins kept their abilities, maybe they didn't, but tying it to and then offing Bhaal was enough. They didn't kill off the Thief-Acrobats or Cavaliers, so why did they feel they had to do that with Assassins?
But that wasn't my call, obviously.
Either way, the loss of the assassin class (and again, this was obviously only the class, and not those murder-for-hire folk of other classes) was something that was a global change, and while it wasn't the only change, it was certainly the most notable (largely because of the poor execution).
An explanation had to be given. That's all I'm saying. I'm not defending the explanation; it was clumsy, at best.
I'm simply defending the need for an explanation.
Unlike some, I've never been overly bothered by the ToT, because that's when I came aboard... I didn't care about Bane, but I prefer my idea that the current one is actually Xvim. I didn't like Myrkul as a deity, because he was presented as the "ooh, death is scary!" type, and I hate that trope. I like him as a sentient artifact, though. Bhaal I didn't like because more than any other deity, he was one-dimensional -- a pure murder machine. I was happy to see him go, and unhappy with his return in 5E. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 28 Mar 2018 19:25:32 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6354 Posts |
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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2018 : 20:06:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by farinal
I never understand why would they need to change so much in the setting in order to change some gameplay issues. I mean if a RSE was intended for story and lore reasons is great but why would you need for example TOT in order to remove the Assassin class from the game. Just say it is not in the new edition and be done with it. Not saying that I dont like the TOT but just seems a bit weird to change the lore or setting JUST to modify the gameplay. Its like an MMO changing all the quests and stories in the game world after a patch that fixed a part of the gameplay.
Because some people like continuity, and want an explanation for when something changes in the setting.
That was not an in-world change, that was a change in a game. I don't need to rewrite the Realms in order to use them with a different system. They don't need to rewrite the Realms because now mages can cast 1 more spell per day.
The removal of "Assassin" as a character-class doesn't imply that actual assassins magically disappear from the setting. That assumption simply makes no sense.
Assassin was no longer an available class. That's a change to the setting.
There were also changes to how some spells work. This, too, was a global change.
There were changes with other classes, as well -- particularly the druid and the thief-acrobat.
Like it or not, the published Realms is a game setting. When something changes in the game, it changes in the setting. And at the time this was happening, continuity was very, very important to the setting -- the designers and writers of the time felt that making large-scale changes without any explanation at all destroyed the verisimilitude of the setting.
Sadly, this is no longer the case.
I don't agree with this. The story should not bend to game mechanics, the game mechanics should enhance the story. If you change the setting for every rule change, then you get 4e FR. It's not good worldbuilding IMHO.
Assassins as a game class don't change the setting. Light weapon-wielding, stealthy people who use poisons and kill for money aren't going anywhere. I could also run FR as a classless system.
Besides, by that logic, if you can't build something with a game system, then that something shouldn't be in the world, which is pretty weird tbh.
Totally agree with this. I dont think it makes sense to change the world in order to explain rule changes. I can run FR with all editions of D&D and even with other games. So what is thr point of tweaking the lore to accomodate the rules then?
But I also get Wooly's point. Of course it is nice to have an explanation for the changes to keep the continuity but the people in charge just choose the most absurd ways to do it. |
Edited by - farinal on 28 Mar 2018 20:15:28 |
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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe
Australia
243 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2018 : 21:35:10
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| Problem with removing assassins from in game world: I can flavour anything to be what I want. It's not very difficult to reflavour a thief as an assassin. In game world stays in tact, but the mechanics change slightly. Finally: AD&D 2e was supposed to be compatible with AD&D 1e with groups being able to swap and change what they included from which edition (see Ed's home game group as an example). Assassins didn't need to disappear just because of a new edition. |
DM of the Realms: A blog for my Forgotten Realms adventures. |
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Re-imagining the Avatar Crisis/Time of Troubles
