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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2016 : 19:50:54

So i'm gonna rewrite the Time of Troubles to be less deity focused.

Anyone have any ideas. I know there are a couple of you ToT haters out there so if you don't like the Time of Troubles but don't want to rewrite entire sourcebooks just so you can use the information then how would you do it.

I'm thinking of keeping the specific events; like undead unleashed upon Waterdeep, poisoning of the Boareskyr Bridge, big fight in Tantras and death of lots of Torm worshippers, death of lots of assassins, weakening of the Shadow Thieves

So anyone have any thoughts/ideas

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2016 : 20:56:45

Could probably do with a list of all events that came about directly or indirectly as a result of the ToT as well.

The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2420 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2016 : 21:22:32

I can't imagine how the time of troubles COULD be less deity focused... I mean - it was ENTIRELY about deities...

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2016 : 22:22:08

quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

I can't imagine how the time of troubles COULD be less deity focused... I mean - it was ENTIRELY about deities...

Indeed. That's like trying to open a vegan Kentucky Fried Chicken. It can't be done.

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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore

1965 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2016 : 23:46:21

You don't like the extra-crispy eggplant?

Misanthorpe

Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.

"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises

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idilippy
Senior Scribe

USA
417 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2016 : 02:37:27

If you had a list of all the repercussions of the ToT it would be easier to start looking in on them to decide what can be kept as is with a different explanation and what is so intrinsically tied to the direct interaction of deities as to need major modifying.

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11701 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2016 : 03:32:09

sometimes change for change's sake isn't necessarily good. Other than Midnight, Mystra, AND Kelemvor all becoming deities (which taking away would be a huge retcon), I didn't have a huge problem with it.

Now, if you wanted to reveal that the truth behind the ToT was something else and Ao was just doing the tail wagging the dog..... that I might be ok with. I've got my own theories going with the gods of magic.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2420 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2016 : 05:24:35

I COULD see if you changed the plot to another involving the gods, or I could see having the Realms revert back to pre-TOT realms (the easiest way being a simple reset of the clock) - but I just can't imagine any plot for the TOT that would not include the gods.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2016 : 08:44:16

Wow, not a single ToT hater left. I guess the shock of the spellplague and all the later guff has put it all into perspective.

Nevertheless i will persevere.

Im looking at the whole thing from a people perspective, and when i say people i mean common man, but i doubt even kings and lords knew what was going on.

So im imagining how john smith of the dalelanda found out about the time of troubles.

Friend: hey john, have you heard, apparently there is big trouble going on everywhere. They say magic has gone mental and the gods are walking toril.

John: really?

Friend: yeah, Bane is dead.

John: isnt he that god those guys from zhentil keep want us to worship.

Friend: thats him, he got killed by a giant man with the head of a lion over in tantras.

John: really, did you see it.

Friend: no, but my wife's, cousin's, husband's, friend saw it.

John: so you're telling me a god got killed by some giant with a lion shaped hat on.

Friend: well yeah, but apparently all the gods are weak as kittens now and they are dying all over the place. I hear myrkul got himself killed in waterdeep summoning up an army of undead.

John: but i thought magic was all broken, how did he make the undead. And didnt waterdeep get attacked by undead last year. What makes you so certain it was a god.

Friend: well my brother saw him.

John: isnt he the drunk that run off to make his fortune in gambling dens.

Friend: well yeah, but he's better now.

John: you talk a lot of s**t. Its just some mage messing around again. They are always doing this kind of stuff.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2016 : 08:54:50

The point im making is that no one really has or had any idea of what is happening across the world, or even in the country next door. Its all just rumour and hearsay.

Urban myths nowdays can become part of societal knowledge and people begin to state them as fact. Such as the belief that daddy long legs are the most poisonous creature on the planet, but they lack the mouth parts to deliver that poison. Total rot.

So where am i going with this. Well rumour has power. The power to discredit foes, elevate allies, cause uprisings, bring about change.

So we have a number of cloak societies that are responsible for disseminating information. They spread truth as equally as rumour and they do it for their client's interests as well as themselves.

Im not suggestion a concerted effort by all societies to spread a single rumour. More likely multiple rumours spread at the same time that get mixed up into a hysteria that others start to take advantage of so that they can do evil deeds.

For instance someone spreads the rumour about a particular god dying. At the same time something happens to make it appear so. Someone else spreads another rumour while some nutter mage is summoning undead all over the place. Two blokes get super sized and have a fight. Someone poisons a river. An entire religion splits in two then three. Uprisings start in the old empires and a few gods actually die.

Its just smoke and mirrors and misunderstanding. Every event in the ToT can have a god explanation or a non god explanation. Doesnt matter which is true (depends on your gm and unless they are running a ToT campaign it still doesnt matter). What it does mean is that ToT haters can still run in the same world without removing events.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2016 : 08:58:19

So a list of events.

1 - magic goes awry.
2 - undead attack waterdeep
3 - two giants fight in tantras
4 - a lot of torm worshippers die in tantras
5 - a lot of assassins die in the sword coast
6 - the river at boareskyr bridge is fouled.

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2016 : 18:45:32

Its not that we don't hate it - its just impossible to separate 'the gods' from a story that is 98% about 'the gods'.

You have to create an entirely NEW story.

Either throw it out completely, or use it, but I can't see how changing it could work (you could possibly replace some of the gods with others, but then its still just the same story, re-painted, and you still have 'the gods').

So, ummmm... I guess, good luck with that?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2016 : 19:04:55

I guess i shall have to go reading through the books again to find a list of all the events.

Im not really looking for where the gods appeared. More what happened as a result so that an alternate explanation can be sought.

I reckon i could even explain away the death of mystra. In retaliation for the damage done to the church of bane by the rumours (, the banites spread rumours that mystra is dead. The strange magic behaviour lends credence to this rumour so the forces of good spread it about that mystra was reborn as she had in the past.

The bits about midnight and cyric could well be about a group of adventurers that went about trying to deal with the exploitative wizards causing trouble at the time and then got caught up in the whole rumour mill and became part of the background narrative.

Myrkuls church gets destroyed from within by Jergals church who disliked all the undead making they had to do. Then they make a new lord of the dead by exploiting the rumour mill for themselves. Thus the church of kelemvor is born.

The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2420 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2016 : 02:58:04

I think of myself as one of the more oldschool guys here, as I hate most of the big changes that have come around since 3rd E and RSEs in general - still the TOT is so central to everything that has occurred since that I can't imagine ANY way to do what you're hoping to.

The alignment shift of MYSTRA was MAJOR, and has guided (at least in small ways) about half the novels written since the TOT. Can you think of a major power group in the Realms not composed or led by a powerful magic-user who is/are either a) a follower of her new goodly intent or b) struggling against it.

I just realized I was about to list every event in the timeline :P I'll skip that and let you imagine what I was going to say :)

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2016 : 08:29:37

Well a change in alignment of a deity is one of those non events that im looking to distance rather than define.

Mystra became NG, what does that mean to normap people, absolutely nothing.

Do her followers now suddenly go out and combat evil whereas before they ignored it. Does her church suddenly bar all evil doers and acts.
Do her worshippers suddenly wake up one day and think "mystra is neutral good, id best do the same".

It seems more likely if anything about the changing perception of mystra among the common folk actually occured then that was the result of a change in behaviour of her church. Which could have occured with a change in leadership.

The whole idea of mine is not to say the gods didnt do it. Instead im looking to write a collection of rumours that allow for the god nonsense if you like that kind of thing but also allow for a non god version if you dont like it.

The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2420 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2016 : 20:06:45

Yes, her followers became MUCH more openly opposed to evil, the followers of Cyric in particular. And remember, she also became less lawful. A new wild-card if you will.

Ah - I see - so you're not trying to undo the events, just explain them away... Not simple but doable, I guess.

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11701 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2016 : 22:18:35

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Wow, not a single ToT hater left. I guess the shock of the spellplague and all the later guff has put it all into perspective.

Nevertheless i will persevere.

Im looking at the whole thing from a people perspective, and when i say people i mean common man, but i doubt even kings and lords knew what was going on.

So im imagining how john smith of the dalelanda found out about the time of troubles.

Friend: hey john, have you heard, apparently there is big trouble going on everywhere. They say magic has gone mental and the gods are walking toril.

John: really?

Friend: yeah, Bane is dead.

John: isnt he that god those guys from zhentil keep want us to worship.

Friend: thats him, he got killed by a giant man with the head of a lion over in tantras.

John: really, did you see it.

Friend: no, but my wife's, cousin's, husband's, friend saw it.

John: so you're telling me a god got killed by some giant with a lion shaped hat on.

Friend: well yeah, but apparently all the gods are weak as kittens now and they are dying all over the place. I hear myrkul got himself killed in waterdeep summoning up an army of undead.

John: but i thought magic was all broken, how did he make the undead. And didnt waterdeep get attacked by undead last year. What makes you so certain it was a god.

Friend: well my brother saw him.

John: isnt he the drunk that run off to make his fortune in gambling dens.

Friend: well yeah, but he's better now.

John: you talk a lot of s**t. Its just some mage messing around again. They are always doing this kind of stuff.

You LITERALLY just made me LOL

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11701 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2016 : 22:28:56

If I were going to change anything about the ToT, it would be simply that Ao was playing a shell game. We have the story that he told the gods as regards the tablets of fate. However, maybe he just needed to boot all the gods out of the heavens so that he could do something else. Essentially like if you have a server that's running, but you need to do some upgrade.... now you don't necessarily tell the users the truth about WHY you're booting them off the server (with no approved change order)... and then things go bad during the upgrade.... then someone asks some questions.... and you point them to "ummm, the tablets are missing... ummm, yeah, bring the tablets back".... Then you let those deities who were involved with the theft of the tablets reboot into a previous version of themselves and temporarily stick some moron in their place as a placeholder (because the rebooted gods didn't know the truth about certain things that happened prior to their last save)....

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 12 Oct 2016 : 12:16:21

Its an obvious fix many do i think. However i dont wish to quantify or define things more. It sounds like everything nowadays is just about the gods. I want to move away from that and return to a more humanocentric version of the realms as it used to be.

I think the way to achieve that (and i could be wrong here) is by taking away the certainty of events and leaving multiple alternatives in their place.

Places still get destroyed, people still die, old religions split and are replaced by new ones. What is different is that as players there is no definitive answer. You cant just pick up the phone and dial 1111 for the god helpline to get the answers (yes there is a spell to contact a god but he might not answer truthfully or completely and he might ignore you entirely).

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 12 Oct 2016 : 12:21:31

So heres a trivia question. What was the first event of the ToT.

And saying the gods came to toril isnt enough. Nor is some deity only event on the outer planes. I mean an event on toril that was witnessed.

If not then i will start with Bane appearing above Zhentil Keep.

Can anyone think of an alternative. It seems pretty easy to imagine Fzoul arranging for some display of power and divine patronage (im even open to the summoning of an avatar or a manifestation, although it could just as easily be an illusion or deception) to convert people to his side of Bane's worship (a schism in that church had been brewing since fzoul came to zhentil keep).

How will bystanders know the difference between an illusion, a manifestation, or a god turning up in weakened form.

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