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Aeraellien
Acolyte
4 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Sep 2016 : 15:52:21
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So I am working on a homebrew campaign and I am tying several events together that involve giants, dwarves, a tarrasque, and Annam. I have searched high and low on the available wiki's and google accessible media and my subject knowledge is spotty still at best. After a post on r/dnd I was directed over here. Hoping I'm not stepping on any toes and/or asking questions that have already been asked. As an aside, I was introduced to dnd in 3.5 and haven't started really paying attention to the lore until very recently.
When posting on r/dnd I was starting to realize the competing levels of canon and sources when it comes to lore. I was wondering if anyone could clarify some details about Ostoria. The sources that i keep finding specify that Ostoria fell after the end of the war with dragons. The end occurs sometime after Ulutiu's necklace froze a large section of the land under Giant control. The events that led up to Ulutiu's self imposed exile (and subsequent fall of Ostoria) began in -25500 DR when he had an affair with the wife of the God/Father of the Giants. 22950 years later [-2550 DR] Ulutiu began his exile, his corpse sank into the cold ocean creating the great glacier and the ice sea 75 years later [-2475 DR].
The Giants of Ostoria are specifically stated to have enslaved dwarves (at least, probably more species than that), however the dwarves don't show up on (or in if you'd rather) until -16000 DR from the Yehimal mountains. Eventually founding the great kingdom of Bhaerynden after -16000 DR but before -11000 DR. Placing Dwarves, Elves, and primitive barbarian Humans on the scene well within the effective reign of Giants even after the dragons ceased their war.
The only reasonable explaination that i have come to regarding a lack of Ostoria related details is that the majority of it must be under the Great Glacier in the north of Faerûn.
Is there any reason to believe that Giants would not have established a limited presence in the area south of the Great Glacier during their 23025 year reign? Is there any material that species this?
Thanks in advance.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2016 : 16:31:54
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Wow, you picked a mine field of a realms conundrum that the best lorelords have yet to explain satisfactorally.
Having studied it a bit i can give you my explanation, but it is not canon.
So Ostoria is created and it actually stretches from east of the great glacier all the way down to the vilhon reach and possibly beyond.
If you ignore the nonsense regarding sons of annam and the gods the short answer is that Annam ruled Ostoria and gave each of his sons a kingdom that was spread out across faerun.
The dragons arise (the lore around the origins of dragons is just as confusing as giants) and eventually the two races clash.
Cue a thousand year long war that the giants are losing. The borders of ostoria shrink and it fractures into its sub kingdoms, some of which are almost completely destroyed.
In a last ditch attempt to win, Annam joins the battle personally trying to kill Garyx who controls the dragons (cut of the head and the army fails). Unfortunately as the battle rages Annam spies Ulutiu and Othea together and runs to kill him.
The war between giant and dragon is a horrifying stalemate.
Ulutiu is slain and his death creates the great glacier.
That is -25500 DR.
Annams sons survive and Lannaxis manages to restore Ostoria to a semblance of its glory. The Great Glacier however keeps on expanding and a council of the sons of Annam convenes in the place where Hartsvale now stands to decide what to do about the growing ice.
At this point i think the giants tried to recover Ulutius necklace and may have succeeded. We know the great glacier existed before -2550 DR when Ulutius barge was meant to have finally sank and created the glacier, so i think that -2550 DR is just the last date that it was returned to its final resting place.
Ultimately around -25500 DR Lannaxis poisoned Othea and was cursed and the other sons of Annam moved on (i think they becamr the gods of giantkind and just hid their true names - its easier that way).
The kingdoms of Ostoria survive as separate kingdoms now and they are ruled by the blood of the sons of Annam (the ruler os called a paramount). Gradually the kingdoms are eroded by the elves and dwarves and humans until none survive until the present day.
Thats the really short version. Im thinking if i can get the dates to match up that the ice queen might be responsible for returning Ulutiu's necklace to reform the great glacier most recently. But ill have to look into it first.
If you want to know more i recommend looking at the 2nd edition draconomicon and giantcraft and GHoTR and trying to match up the story and dates. I also used an old 1st edition generic deities and demigods for some other members of the giant pantheon.
The end result of my investigations appears in the Alternate Dimensions fan mag in my sig (issue 5, 6, or 7 i believe). I took a few liberties with canon and i will probably revise it in future, but i tried to make all the origin myths of giant and dragon kind true (after a fashion).
I hope that was helpful, but the answer is that you will probably have to decide for yourself what to use. Realmslore that far back in the past is messy (probably deliberately so) and is like real world history in that respect (who knows what happened on earth 27000 years ago). |
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Aeraellien
Acolyte
4 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2016 : 16:45:31
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@dazzlerdal: I appreciate the speedy response, If you don't mind I have a few more questions that relate to where you left off.
Annam eventually leaves after some whackadoodle with his mountain form wife Othea concerning his last son. Specifically forbidden from returning to the prime material plane bound by his oath. Oddly enough this means that Annam "All Father" is no where to be found when the Dwarves show up on scene. Moradin is also referred to as the "All Father" and the Dwarves creation myth details that they were created not born by Moradin. Is it possible that in Annam's exile he created the Dwarven gods and helped them enter into the prime material under Mt. Yehimal and the Dwarven gods are the ones responsible for the birth of the first Dwarves? |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2016 : 22:23:54
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In my Realms dwarves were created as servants for giants to delve into the mountains and bring them riches and build stuff. After their mighty war with Batrachi giants were weakened and dragons mostly destroyed their empires after they were done with Batrachi. It took some time for dwarves to show up on surface and made their presence known (to elves mostly at that time). It is said that they all came from Yehimal mnts. but I belive that those were only the most visible (and those should be golden dwarves) others were less visible and had no Great kingdom of Shanatar that would settle the whole known world and nobody objected :-)
I got interested by your comparison of Annam and Moradin and there is a small chance they might be a single entity. I willl have to look into it sometimes... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2016 : 00:07:06
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| There is a portion of Ostoria that survives on in the North above the Savage Frontier. Check Giantcraft and the twilight giants storyline. Also, there's some leftovers from that civilization, such as Ironfang Keep and the Citadel of the Raven. Vaasa is also full of giants. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2016 : 11:50:06
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Out of interest could you post the quote where it says the dwarves were enslaved by the giants. It would be interesting to see what the timeline for that enslavement could be. The times in giantcraft are all over the place but ive done my best to try and render them into at least an appropriate millenium.
As for giant kingdoms amd their leftovers i think i covered that in the article i did for alternate dimensions and i cant remember the details here.
I placed detailed some of another giant kingdom in the moonshaes founded by grond peaksmasher in issue 8 and 9 of alternate dimensions. It looks like the giant kingdoms gradually eroded away until when the age of humanity dawned the last were finally ended. Jothun was destroyed by Netheril and the dragons of Hoarfaern and i think that was the last bastion of giant civilisation and remnants of ostoria spread across the great glacier and the high ice.
I wouldnt say that Hartsvale contains a true surviving kingdom of ostoria anymore as it seems a bit low down the civilisation scale. The kingdom that did exist there was likely ended by Hartkiller and was later reformed into a pale shadow of itself. The giants there are special though as they are likely the blood of the sons of Annam (closely related blood anyway with direct kinship). Reading about the Paramount storm giant that hartkiller fought, i took that to be a title representing the closest living relative to the appropriate son of Annam and therefore rightful ruler of his kind (although many probably do not remember the paramounts exist or recognise such far flung authority).
Just my thoughts. The giant stuff is all open to interpretatiom given the vague and conflicting nature of the myths and legends.
Im working on giant stuff for Netheril the Golden Age (although the seeds have been sown in the First Age sourcebook), but thats a long way off and includes the cloud castle of Nicias (i cant recall the realms approximation). So it places Nicias' subkingdom of ostoria in the place where anauroch is today. Its all part of the legends in giantcraft.
I placed Surtyr (or his realms name) as ruler of Helligheim centred on the moonsea and builder of ironfang keep and citadel of the raven.
I think Grolantor (the hill giant guy that became the hill giant god) as the ruler of the vilhon reach region and the first to lose his kingdom to the dragons.
Obadai (or Skoreus stonebones i think) was ruler of the western Heartlands region. His crown is still making the rounds atop a giant lich.
The storm giant and cloud giant ruled over anauroch i believe but there was a falling out and the storm giant left to go south while the cloud giant castle was attacked and crashed after the 1000 year war.
Lanaxis ruled the far north (from hartsvale to the lands around the sea that would become the great glacier).
Cant remember the rest.
It would be interesting if the idea for Moradin came from Annam, but i would never make the gods the same. Belief should make a god, not the other way round (which makes no sense), and so if the dwarves believe in a dwarven god called Moradin, that cannot be the same as Annam. Even if the inspiration for an all father of the dwarves (a gigantic bearded humanoid with the title of all father who fathered children with the earth - probably a mountain) came from the being that would become god of the giants, they are now different divine beings becausr both dwarves and giants believe it to be so. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2016 : 13:39:16
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| Yeah, I'd be interested in the dwarven enslavement piece. I know in 4e they started putting that forth as an idea, but I don't know that they specifically tied it to the realms. It may have been in other crystal spheres. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2016 : 13:42:42
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I'd disagree that it would not be possible... if Annam decided one day to create the dwarves then he could go ahead and do that. I don't think this is the case, however, and see no strong reason for the connection.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2016 : 15:09:40
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One of the arguments for giant/dwarven relation is that once ilithids awaken dwarves with psionics (duergars) they showed innate ability to change size (enlargement) and they basicaly looks the same except the hight. For your theory Dazz I have posted third one above ;-)
For Annam vs Moradin you know there is plenty of arguments for racial gods creating those races hence preceding them in existance. For me there is some logic in that Annam created both giants and dwarves (Allfather) and they referred to him in their own way. Another possibility would be that Moradin was a less important god in Annam's pantheon and later got much more power. Other gods in those pantheons might be a good lead if they are similar a lot but I would have to look at that more. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2016 : 00:25:02
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There is no reference in the sources to the entire dwarven race being enslaved by the giants. There are more isolated references (like the group of arctic dwarves enslaved by frost giants in FR14 The Great Glacier) but nothing race-wide.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2016 : 01:33:01
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I spun Annam as an archtype and also the 'High God' of the Dwarves.
He was basically an Ordial (my name for that group of beings existing just above the 'godly' tier). There are many different levels within the Ordial tier, just as there are within the divine one, and one of the few that mortals are aware of are the 'Prime Ordials' (primordials) - those elemental beings that have sway over parts of the prime Material Plane.
The Ordials were the 'foreman' when the multiverse was created from the 'bones' of the first world. Annam created the Jötunnbrud as basic laborers, and they in-turn created the dwarves. Then the Ordial of Fire (Kossuth?) showed the Giants how to shape the dwarves into dragons, using his power (and greed). Thus, the three races are connected since the dawn of time.
My take is all. make of it what you will. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Sep 2016 01:34:13 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2016 : 04:19:06
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| I think Optimus was one of those Prime Ordials :P |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2016 : 11:03:24
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I dont think i will ever buy into a god existing without worshippers (i can produce examples pre TOT where they died that way), but thats just me. My alternate is that Annam was a living being and then became a god or died and the giants that worshipped him caused a god called Annam to exist.
But like i say thats just me and it amounts to the same in the end
Most of actual gods are ascended mortals but for me there must be a beginning and in this case I choose divine one. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2016 : 20:02:26
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The way I spin things is that 'deity' is just a collective term for anyone having super-human abilities (above and beyond what a fantasy RPG already allows, which is a very blurry line). A 'god' is a deity that fulfills those requirements (usually - another blurry line) AND has a connection to group of mortals. By this I mean 'a piece of their soul'. Thus, most (90%?) of all gods ARE indeed ascended mortals. However, there have been plenty of cases where a deity merged with a mortal, thus granting it a connection to that race (think of souls as a USB port connecting a person to the 'spiritual internet').
To elaborate further, I think each 'race' (another loose term, since we have plenty of examples of races splitting-off from others) has something akin to a 'uni-mind'* - a racial consciousness where it can draw from and send to, and from that the group gets its 'racial gods'. When a hero - or even an arch-villain - is formed within the collective consciousness, that person receives a 'better connection' themselves (upgraded to a T1 cable, using my internet analogy above). Basically, its the start of unlimited uploads & downloads. This usually happens upon the death of said individual, but not necessarily - there has to be a defining moment where most of the race's (or just 'mortal group') consciousness is focused upon them - basically sending a torrent of good (or ill) will towards that proto-god. Normally, they start out as a demigod, but even that varies, depending upon the circumstances, the size of the mortal group, and whether other deities or even artifacts were involved. Think of this - in game terms - as having the 'god' template added to the character. The 'godly' power actually comes from the uni-mind of the group (most... at first). Evil gods have been known to literally drain their worshipers dry, living them dead or near-souless husks.
Now, in the case of most races, there is a feeling of solidarity and the consciousness is formed from the collective members of a race, but in the case of some races - like humans - they form into dozens, hundreds, and even thousands of different sub-groups who's views are so completely opposed that they form smaller 'uni-minds'. This is why there are so many human gods. However, it also 'lessens' them, since the power is based upon the amount of faith (worship) being aimed their way. Humans, of course, counter this by breeding like rats, and settling EVERYWHERE the possibly can. The non-human gods are mostly 'arch-types', but human gods can be just about anything. Also, its almost unheard of for non-humans to have 'civic deities' - gods of one particular region or city. First, non-human settlements don't normally have the population density to achieve this, plus, that 'spiritual solidarity' thing comes into play - Elves, Dwarves, etc., just don't have that "us vs them" attitude about their OWN KIND.
Lastly, we have creatures like primordials (and other beings, of both lesser and greater stature), who are deities, but NOT gods... but can turn into a god. One of these without a piece of mortal soul can have cults, with limited interaction with their worshipers, or they use a 3rd party (usually a demigod or lesser god) to siphon the energy for them for a 'piece of the action' (they keep a percentage of the power for themselves). These sorts of relationships even exist amongst actual gods, and some have entire networks of inter-connected powers sharing certain aspects of the faith (normally within a pantheon, but not necessarily). Think of it as a very complex corporate structure (which sadly means that the more gods involved in the group, the harder it is for anything tangible to get done). The most efficient way for a non-ascended mortal to become a god is to absorb a mortal's soul. There are many different ways this can be accomplished, and it always has risk (when two personalities merge, either one or the other become dominant, or they literally merge into an amalgam personality with traits of both). Some of these beings (the Yuir Totems jump to mind) have done this so many times there is little left that resembles the original. Which brings me to my last point - a god CAN be worshiped by more then one race/group, but in those cases - and in order to get power from all of them - the god has merged with a soul from each group. Several Elven deities have been known to absorb human worshipers and have achieved this.
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I think Optimus was one of those Prime Ordials :P
Unfortunately, if I tried to place the transformers within this structure, they would have to be very minor 'powers' answering to Ordials within the alignment structure (Astral), rather then the Prime material Plane. I would associate them with the Modrons, naturally. The Autobots themselves could have been created to assist the primordials (in the same manner the Jotuns were created) to help build/organize/watch-over the Prime Material Plane (if one were so inclined to include them in their D&D games... which I wouldn't). Thus, Primus would be a power dwelling within Mechanus.
Since many 'powers' (inter-changeable with 'deities', but usually used to describe beings of at least primordial status) are constantly trying to increase their own power, most of them have 'agents' that operate outside their portfolios, trying to subvert other mortals into worshiping them. This happens on both the planer level, and within crystal spheres (world settings). So its fairly easy, game-wise, to shoe-horn just about anything you want in just by associating it with something within the Great wheel Cosmology.
*The term 'Uni-Mind' is borrowed from Marvel Comics, and I like the concept a LOT. It helps explain animal archtypes (beast lords), along with a host of other things. Uni-minds can be made-up of smaller uni-minds (especially in the case of humans), and are also part of 'greater uni-minds'. Thus, everything in the universe is (spiritually) part of something greater, and all part of a single whole, at some point 'way up the line'. Each Uni-Mind itself has its own 'collective consciousness', much like Marvel's 'Manifestations' (archtypes). When a mortal looks upon one of these manifestations, they see precisely what they expect to see, since they actually exist within the astral and have no real physical form. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Sep 2016 20:10:05 |
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Aeraellien
Acolyte
4 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2016 : 14:59:55
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Interesting perspectives et all.
Sorry for the belated reply (holiday weekend and all). I have managed to pick up Giantcraft, however I have yet to actually get any further than the first page. It does seem however that it will assist in defining the lore.
From what I am gathering, I can pretty much "shoehorn" whatever I'd like so long as it makes sense to me and mine tablefolk. This is both relieving and unsettling. My intention is to craft a 5e module for upload to DM's Guild, which is why I want to get the FR mythos and timelines correct. Would it be incorrect or a faux pas to merely state all of my "shoehorning" as a mystery cult's view on deities of the realm? Could this "creative tool" also be used to explain how members of said mystery cult could be from opposing races who act outside of their norm?
For instance:
If a mystery cult worshiping the knowledge/magic (read:eldritch) aspect of Annam began as a cult of Giants. Later this cult began accepting members of other races who showed affinity with magic and showed traits that separated them from the common slaves of said Giants after the numbers of the order began to wane due to the war with dragons. This cult would (or could I suppose) slowly integrate deities of other pantheons which hold common myth with that given aspect of Annam (similar to the irl conversion of regional and folk deities into the christian dogma).
If this were used as a plot point, would Annam himself receive patronage and become empowered; or would a proto-Annam be created without a divine connection to the original deity?
As I am sure there isn't a direct answer for Annam; is there a similar situation where this has been detailed? If not, what is the opinion of the loremasters here to further define this possibility so that it feels (read: fits) with canon explanations?
On a separate topic: When referencing locations between the gulfs of ages which is more appropriate to use? Current names of points of interest on a map of Faerun, or period specific names? What is a good resource for side by side comparisons of maps throughout the ages? |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2016 : 00:06:15
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You may be over-thinking things, Aeraellien. Especially since this is for 5e, where most of the 'die-hard grognards' dare not tread. 
You don't have to actually specify if it is Annam, or it is a new, proto-Annam (as you put it). It could even be some other deity posing as Annam. The only thing you have to specify is that the cultists believe it to be true. If you yourself are favoring one path over another, then you can subtly add hints as to which is 'correct'. If it were me, I would drop little (proof) hints that several different paths are correct (that he is both Annam and 'not' Annam), just to muddy the waters even further.
There is a VERY good reason why Ed used to use the names for years rather then dates - the more 'hard facts' you present, the more you (as a designer) "paint yourself into a corner". Leave it loose - and fun - and you should be fine. As long as your cultists are cool and they believe some such 'heresy' or another, then people will like it, regardless (so long as the adventure itself is good, of course).
The only other thing I can add is that Annam was banned from the Realms way back when. All of that may have changed after the Time of Troubles, or even the Sundering (both times, the 'gods' and their roles were redistributed & redefined, so to speak). The Dawn Cataclysm may have even had an effect on all of them. What I am trying to say is, what was 'fact' at one point (like Annam's banning) may no longer be fact. Without knowing what your adventure is about, it could be the original faith was pure Annam, and then for a time it was 'washed out' by something else (another god, arch-fiend, or a 'proto-Annam'), and now Annam is back, in 'all his glory'... or not. Its really all up to you. Do whatever works best for the scenario.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Giants write stuff down as runes on rock so its entirely possible some of their documents have survived the millennia and have just been uncovered (or were previously uncovered and lie in the depths of some library or storage vault somewhere).
Those were named in the Twilight Giants trilogy. I no longer own the books, but IIRC is was 'Bibliofolio' (or something really close to that).
Off the top of my head, I am thinking 1st or 2nd book - some noble had a bunch of them in his castle, and the Verbeeg scholar(?!) was highly interested in them. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Sep 2016 00:09:29 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2016 : 21:56:02
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It was in the second book (The Giant Among Us, pg.41 of the paperback) - I went looking for something else and found the name:
Biotite Folios
They are written in Metamorpherie, supposedly the 'Stone Giant Language'. I didn't realize giants had different languages. I'd probably just hand-wave that and say its a specific, written form of Giantish (Jotun). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Sep 2016 21:58:42 |
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Regarding Ostoria, Annam, and pre-Karsus' Folly
