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Originally posted by Adhriva

Myth Glaurach. Glaurachyndaar in modern terms, is infact known and was a base of operations for the Elven Crusade. There's no reason to suspect the elves lost that information over the course of a century. As for scrying the location, that depends on the Mythal's power array. It seems unlikely that it would forbid such divination magics, but mythals aren't exactly divination beacons to begin with. I seem to recall the first time Areavin look at the mythal he didn't recognize the stone rock as a Mythal on his first glance of it.

Now, as for the location of other cities....they're not known although the general boundaries of ancient empires are (such as old Cormanthyr and Aryvandaar and other realms).

As for if a PC would know it....that's what history checks are for! But it's generally very, very unlikely unless they're quite the scholar or well versed in that particular subject.

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Originally posted by BrianDavion

this is why I'm glad that WOTC seems to be returning to the "IC sourcebooks" approuch. :)

I tend to suspect there are few sages who could do anything more then retell the old myths and make some guesses based on it. even as long lived as the chosen are, most of the elven ruins in the north where ancient by time they where born. I imagine they'd need to track down an elven scholar, proably a member of the Olin Gisir.
lost empires of faerun has a know: history chart for the crown wars that's worth looking at. page 53

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Originally posted by Adhriva

I doubt it then. The daemonfey knew the location of the city due to the age of some of their members as I recall. They also had to look for the mythal, the ancient elves hid it away (in a pit) to prevent it's destruction. The rest of the world believed the city to be lost.

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Originally posted by Cards77

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Originally posted by Adhriva

Myth Glaurach. Glaurachyndaar in modern terms, is infact known and was a base of operations for the Elven Crusade. There's no reason to suspect the elves lost that information over the course of a century. As for scrying the location, that depends on the Mythal's power array. It seems unlikely that it would forbid such divination magics, but mythals aren't exactly divination beacons to begin with. I seem to recall the first time Areavin look at the mythal he didn't recognize the stone rock as a Mythal on his first glance of it.

Now, as for the location of other cities....they're not known although the general boundaries of ancient empires are (such as old Cormanthyr and Aryvandaar and other realms).

As for if a PC would know it....that's what history checks are for! But it's generally very, very unlikely unless they're quite the scholar or well versed in that particular subject.

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Sorry I should have clarified. My game is set prior to 1372 so the fey'ri haven't yet "found" the city or been released from their imprisonment in the Nameless Dungeon.

Should be fairly easy to scry in my opinion. Depending on the spell:

"Show me the location of the nearest mythal"

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As Myth Glaurach had neither a long nor particularly illustrious history ere its destruction, few tales of fabulous treasure or magic are linked with its name. Nevertheless, this little known site is a place of great magical power, and its ruins have long been a convenient staging ground for adventurers daring to explore the nearby citadel-town of Hellgate Keep.

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If this account can be believed, it might well explain why several adventuring bands have found sanctuary among the ruins of Myth Glaurach from the demons of Hellgate Keep and their packs of ravenous ghouls. Other properties of Myth Glaurach’s mythal have been lost, forgotten, or corrupted by decay, although those that survive have permitted the inhabitants of Hellgate Keep and certain daring adventurers to work powerful incantations and to replenish magic they carry.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Cards77

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Originally posted by Adhriva

Myth Glaurach. Glaurachyndaar in modern terms, is infact known and was a base of operations for the Elven Crusade. There's no reason to suspect the elves lost that information over the course of a century. As for scrying the location, that depends on the Mythal's power array. It seems unlikely that it would forbid such divination magics, but mythals aren't exactly divination beacons to begin with. I seem to recall the first time Areavin look at the mythal he didn't recognize the stone rock as a Mythal on his first glance of it.

Now, as for the location of other cities....they're not known although the general boundaries of ancient empires are (such as old Cormanthyr and Aryvandaar and other realms).

As for if a PC would know it....that's what history checks are for! But it's generally very, very unlikely unless they're quite the scholar or well versed in that particular subject.

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Sorry I should have clarified. My game is set prior to 1372 so the fey'ri haven't yet "found" the city or been released from their imprisonment in the Nameless Dungeon.

Should be fairly easy to scry in my opinion. Depending on the spell:

"Show me the location of the nearest mythal"

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Magics that block scrying and divination are not uncommon.

Also, that's a bit of an odd thing to search for.

That said, its location really wasn't unknown...

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As Myth Glaurach had neither a long nor particularly illustrious history ere its destruction, few tales of fabulous treasure or magic are linked with its name. Nevertheless, this little known site is a place of great magical power, and its ruins have long been a convenient staging ground for adventurers daring to explore the nearby citadel-town of Hellgate Keep.

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and

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If this account can be believed, it might well explain why several adventuring bands have found sanctuary among the ruins of Myth Glaurach from the demons of Hellgate Keep and their packs of ravenous ghouls. Other properties of Myth Glaurach’s mythal have been lost, forgotten, or corrupted by decay, although those that survive have permitted the inhabitants of Hellgate Keep and certain daring adventurers to work powerful incantations and to replenish magic they carry.

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Those quotes are from the write-up of Myth Glaurach in the Mintiper's Chapbook series found on the Wizards website, back in those long ago days when we got free Realmslore at least once a week. The article is located at Mintiper's Chapbook Part 5: Myth Glaurach

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Originally posted by Cards77
Thanks for those nuggets, though that seems odd to me that an ancient city with an active mythal would be a popular staging ground for adventurers, and Hellgate Keep is hardly "nearby". Why wouldn't it be plundered? It was deserted when the yaunti moved in and then the fey'ri unearthed all the weapons stored there and corrupted the mythal.


Anyway, as for your first comment: it's not an odd thing to search for at all. In Volo's Guide to the North the innkeeper at Calling Horns describes how his friends The Bored Swords went deep into the High Forest and found he ruins of an ancient elven city "cloaked in magic" like the legends of myth drannor.

They are referring to Myth Glaurach and not Myth Adofhaer as it's been sent away until 1374 DR.

The information presented above at Calling Horns is what's leading my players this direction.

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Originally posted by Cards77



Thanks for those nuggets, though that seems odd to me that an ancient city with an active mythal would be a popular staging ground for adventurers, and Hellgate Keep is hardly "nearby". Why wouldn't it be plundered? It was deserted when the yaunti moved in and then the fey'ri unearthed all the weapons stored there and corrupted the mythal.

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Originally posted by Cards77


Anyway, as for your first comment: it's not an odd thing to search for at all. In Volo's Guide to the North the innkeeper at Calling Horns describes how his friends The Bored Swords went deep into the High Forest and found he ruins of an ancient elven city "cloaked in magic" like the legends of myth drannor.

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Originally posted by Arivia

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Originally posted by Cards77
Thanks for those nuggets, though that seems odd to me that an ancient city with an active mythal would be a popular staging ground for adventurers, and Hellgate Keep is hardly "nearby". Why wouldn't it be plundered? It was deserted when the yaunti moved in and then the fey'ri unearthed all the weapons stored there and corrupted the mythal.


Anyway, as for your first comment: it's not an odd thing to search for at all. In Volo's Guide to the North the innkeeper at Calling Horns describes how his friends The Bored Swords went deep into the High Forest and found he ruins of an ancient elven city "cloaked in magic" like the legends of myth drannor.

They are referring to Myth Glaurach and not Myth Adofhaer as it's been sent away until 1374 DR.

The information presented above at Calling Horns is what's leading my players this direction.

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Myth Glaurach isn't in the High Forest anyway. Or at least in the modern High Forest. It's actually in the Talons in the upper Delimbyr Vale. Using a mythal-cloaked city as a safe refuge makes some sense for adventurers, especially if they're facing demons and other fiends: the mythal's functions would keep out the demons and give them some safety. We think of mythal cities as dangerous places, but that's mainly because of them being commonly written up as adventuring sites (particularly Myth Drannor.) Myth Glaurach was taken out by orcs, not a fiendish infestation or otherwise, so its mythal remained largely intact.

Hellgate Keep is very nearby, and coming to a head in the late 1360s the fiends of Hellgate Keep rampaged across a lot of that area, culminating in the corruption of the Far Forest and the attack on Sundabar in 1369. So for either skirmishing with fiends in the upper Delimbyr or exploring Hellgate itself, Myth Glaurach isn't a bad staging area.

I'd think that quote from Volo's Guide to the North could refer to the other elven places that the High Forest is lousy with. Something like Mhiilamniir is very strong with elven magic, even if it's not a true mythal.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Cards77



Thanks for those nuggets, though that seems odd to me that an ancient city with an active mythal would be a popular staging ground for adventurers, and Hellgate Keep is hardly "nearby". Why wouldn't it be plundered? It was deserted when the yaunti moved in and then the fey'ri unearthed all the weapons stored there and corrupted the mythal.

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Just because multiple people have spent time there, it doesn't mean they've plumbed all its secrets.

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Originally posted by Cards77


Anyway, as for your first comment: it's not an odd thing to search for at all. In Volo's Guide to the North the innkeeper at Calling Horns describes how his friends The Bored Swords went deep into the High Forest and found he ruins of an ancient elven city "cloaked in magic" like the legends of myth drannor.

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There's a difference between stumbling into a lost city and the scenario you presented, of someone casting a spell to find a mythal.

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Originally posted by Cards77
Ummm where exactly is it then? Is there anything that shows it's location?

It's only ever been described as being in the High Forest. Again we're playing pre-1372.

There are no other known elven cities within the High Forest that fit that description unless you can point one out to me. I'm concerned with what's referred to in the canon, not the "unknown" or "lost" elven cities.

For someone to state they found an "elven city" there would need to be something left to find.

Not 'a few crumbling stones' as is the description of some of the locations.

Glaurach is the only one that seems to have something left to find and fit the description magically.

Mhilimnir doesn't have a mythal or much left to find besides one standing building.

I still find the thought it being some sort of popular staging area absurd especially considering it's location, apparent proximity to Hellgate Keep, occupation by yaunti or fey'ri depending on your timeline so it can't be some kind of safe mythal haven.

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Originally posted by Arivia

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Originally posted by Cards77
Ummm where exactly is it then? Is there anything that shows it's location?

It's only ever been described as being in the High Forest. Again we're playing pre-1372.

There are no other known elven cities within the High Forest that fit that description unless you can point one out to me. I'm concerned with what's referred to in the canon, not the "unknown" or "lost" elven cities.

For someone to state they found an "elven city" there would need to be something left to find.

Not 'a few crumbling stones' as is the description of some of the locations.

Glaurach is the only one that seems to have something left to find and fit the description magically.

Mhilimnir doesn't have a mythal or much left to find besides one standing building.

I still find the thought it being some sort of popular staging area absurd especially considering it's location, apparent proximity to Hellgate Keep, occupation by yaunti or fey'ri depending on your timeline so it can't be some kind of safe mythal haven.

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Again, it's in the Talons of the upper Delimbyr Vale. This Mintiper's Chapbook article linked previously discusses the sources in the notes at the bottom: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/mc/mc20010829e I'm not sure what you mean by "pre-1372." Are you dismssing 3e and later sources, in which case you're doing yourself a great disservice? Even if you are, Eric's sources for Myth Glaurach are from 1e and 2e as shown in that article.

As for the Bored Swords, that passage in VGtN talks about it being like "Myth Drannor" and cloaked in a field of magic. That doesn't necessarily mean an actual mythal-protected city, just something elven with a lot of magic. Mhilamniir was the first city to come to mind for me (and it is a city, as noted in Lost Empires of Faerun and Silver Marches). Lothen, the City of the Silver Spires, could also fit - both are elven cities now abandoned in the High Forest, and both contain strong magics in one way or another. Considering the timing of VGtN, the Bored Swords could have even stumbled on Hellgate Keep! (And wouldn't that get Turlang moving a bit faster?) That passage also mentions a ruined city, which doesn't necessitate some or any complete, standing buildings - fields upon fields of rubble would do just fine. (Telardon doesn't work because it's in the Silverwood, of course.)

There's three years between the destruction of Hellgate Keep in 1369 DR and House Dlardrageth's occupation of Myth Glaurach in 1372 DR. That's plenty of time for a group of yuan-ti to have moved in. I also wonder if you're confusing the Scaled Folk occupation of the Nameless Dungeon with the daemonfey at Myth Glaurach. I might be missing something from the novels (been awhile since I've read those), but the nagas in 1369 DR occupied the Nameless Dungeon, and that's where Sarya Dlardrageth destroyed them using the Gatekeeper Crystal. Either way, there's plenty of time for adventuring groups to use Myth Glaurach's ruins as a staging ground for attacks on Hellgate Keep in the late 1360s in there.

The story of the Bored Swords from Volo's Guide to the North is a good hook, but canonically I don't think there's much chance it's referring to Myth Glaurach. (There's always the possibility of portals and so on, of course.) You're free to run your Realms however you'd like, of course, but canonically Myth Glaurach is to the east and pretty well woven in there.

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Originally posted by George Krashos

It's located close to the foothills of the Nether Mountains, north-east of Hellgate Keep.

Yes, the hook was left unintentionally vague.

I gave Telardon its name for LEoF. It was a new addition to realmslore from that product. Can't remember who authored that particular chapter but Eric and I did a LOT of massaging for that product.

I'd say not much of the information in LEoF should be freely available. The site of Myth Glaurach is well known now because the fey'ri used it as a base and the troops of the crusade camped there also.

Gauntlgrym isn't all that well-detailed unless you count Salvatore's fiction. I created the historical stuff for Gauntlgrym (which with a generous nod from Ed to Salvatore's writing, is now actually two cities: Gauntlgrym and Gauntulgrym. I did a piece in the Realms secretariat to try and explain away that conundrum). Of course, there's also a later Dragon magazine piece on Gauntlgrym but in my own work on the North, I've pretty much side-stepped that version.

In simple terms, you should let your players know enough to facilitate your campaign and their gaming experience and avoud meta-knowledge.

-- George Krashos

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Originally posted by The Masked Mage

Have you looked at Snow's book on Eaerlann? I really liked what he did. Unofficial of course but good stuff. I really liked the idea that it was built on the ruins of Sharlarion.

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Originally posted by Brimstone

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12931

Snowblood's map of said city...

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Originally posted by Brimstone

Snowblood made a lot of great PDF's. I am now sidetracked looking through it again...

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Originally posted by Cards77

There are no other known elven cities within the High Forest that fit that description unless you can point one out to me. I'm concerned with what's referred to in the canon, not the "unknown" or "lost" elven cities.

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For someone to state they found an "elven city" there would need to be something left to find.
Not 'a few crumbling stones' as is the description of some of the locations.

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Originally posted by Arivia

As for the Bored Swords, that passage in VGtN talks about it being like "Myth Drannor" and cloaked in a field of magic. That doesn't necessarily mean an actual mythal-protected city, just something elven with a lot of magic.

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Originally posted by TBeholder

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Originally posted by Cards77

There are no other known elven cities within the High Forest that fit that description unless you can point one out to me. I'm concerned with what's referred to in the canon, not the "unknown" or "lost" elven cities.

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In the canon we know that around there were several Elven states, one of which (that happens to be Eaerlann) was founded specifically to curb the ambition of another in the first place, and presumably had forces to do so, at very least until the Seven Citadels' War, seeing how it won.
With this, we don't really need to know every settlement to assume there was more than one city. That's just some of Eaerlanni assets that stuck around in some form and were found, and Myth Glaurach can be identified as such mostly because the place was famous even before mythal.

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For someone to state they found an "elven city" there would need to be something left to find.
Not 'a few crumbling stones' as is the description of some of the locations.

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Why not?
As was pointed out by others (up to Ed himself) on different topics, not only the Elves don't build skyscrapers, their "cities" have very low population density compared to human settlements, and are quite overgrown at best times.
Think about it. The Elves probably have built it in a forest or near one, and of course they had some gardening magic there, that isn't going to just evaporate tracelessly once they are gone (especially if they didn't have time to evacuate). So unless a place was turned into wasteland, it's going to be either a forest or chaotic mess of meadows, shrubbery and groves. With really messed up ecosystem, but this may extend some strangeness outward, so one won't see where exactly it starts.
So when someone stumbles upon ruins at the border of such a place, what's there to see? Oh, look, here's a crumbling stone structure under all the vines and lichen! Huh, is there another one, or it's just that the next grove has a warped tree?

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Originally posted by Arivia

As for the Bored Swords, that passage in VGtN talks about it being like "Myth Drannor" and cloaked in a field of magic. That doesn't necessarily mean an actual mythal-protected city, just something elven with a lot of magic.

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Oh, yes. The Elves used to create lots of lesser spell-fields and wards. And given that Eaerlann had to be seriously militarized by the Elven standards, and it was back when they still were one of the toughest things around...
A random bunch of adventurers who stumbled into one probably would not be able to tell whether it was a mythal city or the Cloaked Military Outpost #129.
And if the latter had a small town appear next to it a century after the war made it obsolete (for the same reasons as human towns grow around castles - and we know there were orcs around) and held for a few generations? Since it was an elven settlement and it was abandoned for long, long time, it could take a team of archaeologists and years of undisturbed work to find the differences other than the nature of its wards.

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