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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
 Posted - 19 May 2015 : 16:30:05
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A further point favoring chivalric ideals prevalent in the human populace of Faerun is the true age of the knightly traditions on Faerun. There are examples of Dragon Lords Nagamat and Bahamut using human armies and equipping human cavalry with arms and armour some 30.000 years before dale reckoning. But realistically, I think barded, warded and armored cavalry might not have come into a war tradition until the early days of the age of humanity (from -3000 to 1000 DR). The required infrastructure to support divine blessings, full plate smithing and strong breeds of horses is nicely stable for human kingdoms in these years, and could be easily sustained near the rising human city states. Also in Faerun some battlefields cleared sufficiently enough of dragons, giants and mages that traditional human warfare might start to resemble medieval combat garnering the rise of knightly orders.
Perhaps knightly tradtitions are older than the human race on Toril, if you include the multiverse and the possibilty of planeswalking knights crusading against evil on other worlds. Some fey knights went on questing treks through the Forests of Toril, besting beasts with cunning and blade alone. The interloper gold elves on Toril used mounted knights along with archers and mages in their armies. Dwarven heroes are sometimes akin to crusaders, leading a group of dwarves into unknown territories to make a new stand or holdfast.
The Heralds Holdfast, a veritable lore mine of heraldic shields, banners and flags, has a chamber dedicated to the coat of arms belonging to the nobilities of ancient houses of Faerun, and has a seperate section each with relics and accoutrements of dwarven, elven, hin (halfling), gnome, centaur, korred (!), giant-kin (from firbolg to verbeeg and ogres) religious groups and clans. Even gnoll, goblin, orc and hobgoblin banners, shields and statues of gods or heroes of the race are displayed in those high domed rooms. Heralds devised the Law of Arms (detailling what a Coat of Arms should be) around the end of the 10th century's Realms, because of common occurence of disputes or mishaps around misrecognised banners.
So with hereditary banners being in use for several thousands of years between humans, and dozens of centuries between races such as dwarves and elves, certain banners might resemble or outright be from old kingdoms or lost minor fiefdoms. Certain symbols of kings or gallant lords of old might still inspire loyalty amongst the people, because of a heroic tale or song or two. The Law of Arms introduced a lot of restrictions, costs and regulations on human coats of arms, and eventually all races flying banners respected their authority. The price to earn a coat of arms depends on the region, with sembians and those in cosmopolitan cities such as Waterdeep paying premium price, especially for the mutliple use of popular heraldric symbols (just to stiffle the explosive growth of heraldric symbols used by all the new wealthy petty nobles in those areas). Lots of races and clans resent the restrictions of the Law of Arms, and corruption scandals are few but not unheard of, but their authority remains respected in nearly all of Faerun. It is even said that children born in the presence of a Herald and named by him or her are destined to great deeds.
So in my view, a country knight is usually a non-noble knight not yet recognised by the Heralds, He has to use a plain colored shield with a single stock symbol. He could rarely be a member of fallen nobility that with the knowledge of a local herald, justly flies the colors of his ancient ancesters. The price of using such a symbol is usually prohibitive, but some highlords might sponsor such actively positive forces in his realm and resanction the nobilty of succesful questing noble sons and daughters through his personal herald. Joining an existing knightly order close to a ruling body greatly enhances the chance a local regent or bishop will make such an offer. Oldblood hereditary lines go through blood, and so does the wealth and respect to join knightly orders and the nobilities.
Lastly, the wealthiest order in the Western Heartlands is probably the Champions Vigilant, and order of helmite paladins leading the Hellriders. Order of the Aster, the crusading order of Lathander/Amaunator, is also quite large in the region with its largest head quarters stationed in Elturel.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2015 : 00:00:00
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Originally posted by SaMoCon
One thing that comes to mind about real world knights that I had forgotten until just now is that they were permitted weapons of war. In fact, most countries of the medieval to renaissance period banned the carrying of weapons or military weaponry by those of low status though the line varied from just the peasants (serfs, servitors, debtors, commoners) up to the high freemen (merchants, artisans, craftsmen). The rise of the rapier was not because it was a superior weapon but that it was lethal to an unarmored opponent but was inadequate versus an armored opponent with a real military weapon, thus being legal for civilians to carry in many nations. Knights were not only an entry position to the gentry or low nobility that were permitted to have the weapons and armor of war but they were also allowed to equip soldiers as their coffers allowed.
Unfortunately, the Forgotten Realms makes virtually no distinction of social classes even though there is flavor text and colorful descriptions to say that there are social classes. The dirtiest peasant can walk into an armor smith's ironworks, drop a bag of gold coins, and walk out with a shiny breastplate on his person without anybody thinking more than "how did he get the money to buy that?" Whereas knights would normally be the best equipped with advanced arms the Forgotten Realms is a free market capitalist system with unrestricted weapon purchases which makes even the United States look like hidebound weapons banners. Since this comment was never implemented into the FR it would be very difficult to do now. Again, this diminishes the military value of the knight.
By this same reason, the social value of the knight is denigrated. The status of the low nobility was built upon the order imposed by the nobles and their designated bully-boys having the only real armaments of warfare. The lower classes fell in line and pledged their loyalty in taxes and services for the protection offered by knights and their men-at-arms. With sanctioning not required to purchase any military equipment the need to offer fealty for protection shifts away from the knight. A peasant earning 1 silver coin a day can purchase a D&D longsword in 5 months and a suit of scale mail in 10 months. A low gentry skilled laborer can purchase both within 2 months.
The D&D combat system also makes the difference between armors slight instead of the RW examples of heavy armor rendering many attacks ineffective until an armored person is pulled down to the ground, the helmet pulled off/opened, and much face stabbing ensues. By contrast, the only difference between leather and plate armors in D&D from 1st ed to 3.x ed is being 30% harder to hit. The D&D system encourages the use of shields as complements to all armors while in the RW the appearance of plate armors made shields obsolete and 2-handed weapons dominated the battlefields. ... But I already made this point. "The nigh invulnerable king of the battlefield in our world that is just a slightly harder to hit mook in the Forgotten Realms."
So it is a one-two punch of the D&D system and the unintended consequences of the FR setting that makes the noble knight a quixotic figure in practice. Worse, pretend knights can pop up anywhere since the equipment has only the barrier of its price. Since magic can make even leather and a shield more protective than metal plate it may be difficult to tell a properly kitted knight at a glance. A noble knight with heroic levels may not even have armor or martial weapons. In the end, orders of knighthoods in the FR are, to me, akin to the invisible bridge in Silverymoon - a neat idea at first blush that becomes unbelievable upon closer scrutiny and is best to just not think about because it is too much of a hassle to try to fix it.
A thought just struck me. We've mostly been talking about human warrior-aristocrats but there are nobility amongst the dwarves and elves. What are their warrior-aristocrats? Are they knights of a different flavor or is the concept completely different?
Yeah, none of this real world flavor would fit the FR. Everyone would be allowed to carry a weapon in a world where orcs roam the countryside and take your children to eat them. Our world is much more tame than this. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Emerald Sage
Acolyte
38 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2015 : 14:14:47
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Yeah, that's the Fate RPG SRD: http://fate-srd.com/
Really wonderful game, got the hardback in the post and loving everything so far. I would encourage anyone on this thread to go through the character creation stage and create a faerunian knight based on the information above. You'll see where I'm coming from. Fate is not class based, so if you decide that your concept is a paladin you have to expand on that with aspects (basically story details with potential mechanical value).
As for the military effectiveness of the knight in the realms, I'm siding with Bladewind - for the reasons given in my posts above I'm not convinced that mages will dominate the battlefield.
Maybe the most salient point here concerning the realms - many of the noble houses are relatively independent of kings and countries. Their nobility is dependent officially on the adjudication of the Heralds but practically on their assets and strength of arms.
Even if a more parochial knights does not bear a coat of arms accredited by the Heralds, there's nothing stopping him and perhaps several other barons in the surrounding countryside pledging mutual aid in defence of their territories and forming a knightly order. Any capable children would be raised as squires to maintain their families' holdings.
A read through of any of the 14th c. sourcebooks and the impression is that any noble knight of faerun is more than likely only a generation or two removed from an adventurer who made it upon plundering some ancient ruin. And then there are nations like Amn and Sembia where tutelage in chivalric ideals is more than likely the result of tradition and status than it is a practical desire to produce knights, so dependent are these regions on mercenaries. The patriars of Baldur's Gate also fall into this category. Although the status of a knight in the Lord's Alliance could be an interesting one. Barons from the lands as far south as boarskyr bridge pledging oaths to the open lord?
In summary, most of the knights encountered in faerun are likely to be members of some holy order - templars if you will.
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2015 : 19:38:02
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Actually, the smalltime nobles in the Western Heartlands are actively cataloged by several city based Herald Companies, namely the Ironflower office in Elturel, the Morningstar office in Berdusk, Narlhelm in Baldurs Gate, Oakenstaff in Iriaebor, High Bow in Secomber and Drawn Dagger in Hills Edge (Power of Faerun, pg 106).
The Gauntlet tabarded heralds of those offices are tasked with keeping track of the number of militia of each blazon, be they local militias, mercenary companies or (house) adventuring bands. This is not public knowledge however, so a local ruler need not be warned if the Herald in question does not see the need. Here is where corruption scandals are seeded, as a large local rebellion could be held secret with the help of a few silent Heralds.
Any formal military alliances that need to be dealt with are also handled by the Gauntlets. Any future disputes (such as over inheritance and such) will be dealt with Green Shield tabarded heralds, with the highest court that can be appealed held at the next Shieldmeet.
If you look at the number of troops that defend towns in the Western Heartlands, you see the garrisons are scarily low. most rely on help from other citystates. Secomber (1100 inhabitants) for example relies on a stationed garrison of 30 men from the Lords Alliance, and while some cities boast small standing armies (Iriaebor), most rely on the resources of others. The Flaming Fists 1600 men strong mercenary force is active throughout the whole region. The 200 strong scimitar wielding Hellriders from Elturel ride forth between the riverbanks of the Chiontar and the Winding Water. An unknown number of Zhentilar can ride down from Darkhold to defend (or raze) the countrysides of Iriaebor and Hill's Edge. So any noble raising enough military presence will be a resource the local neigbouring rulers would love to (ab)use (be they from the Zhentarim of the Lords Alliance).
In these conditions, fast and heavy riding cavalry is the preferred type of troop because of the overlapping reach this type of army can provide, riding in for defence of several citystates in times of upheaval. Considering magical means of communication, these armies can respond very quickly to local threats. Larger, protracted battles (such as from orc hordes) are certainly problematic for the Western Heartlands to repel, as evidenced by the many kingdoms that were razed by such in its history. Even battlefield spellpower is often insufficient in cases of monstrous armies gathering in large numbers.
Adventurers are often (unknowningly) promoters of the chivalric ideals as well, albeit in their own fashion. The quest for loot is an inherintly selfish one, but usually along the road to glory deeds of great selflessness are required to reach to the end. Some manage to even get themselves sponsored by a local ruling body to raise hell in territories far beyond their normal reach. Indeed some are even knighted for their efforts, living lives wholly without any chivalric acts in mind, but beeing seen as such anyway (by the right people). They're probably seen as boogey-men in the regions they were active though...
Some adventurers are forged through hardships, and learn to cut into the heart of evil by necessity. A small hamlet in a path of a monstrous horde is doomed, but anybody surviving is going to turn up as a vengeful adventurer.
Some might get the ideals through religious stories (or dreamvisions) dealing with Helm, Ilmater, Torm or Tyr. Torm himself is said to have been born from quite the humble beginnings as a general under a bannerlord of the Border Kingdoms. As a Deity, he is probably well known for his terrible sacrifice in Tantrass, where he absorbed his faithful's souls from over all the city, so he could stop an avatar of Bane. The children he absorbed he resurrected, all showing strange blessings of strength and bravery when maturing. So some chivalric knights are from this generation, destined to be in favor of a chivalric deity.
Torm is also probably a more popular diety in families that have that more independant streak, as his dogma doesn't require alot of infrastructure or bureaucracy, as his faithfuls duties are for his Faith, Family, Masters and the Good of the Realms, only.
EDIT: added a few thoughts.
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
Edited by - Bladewind on 20 May 2015 22:22:22 |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2015 : 01:47:35
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Well, Emerald Sage, I guess were going to have to agree to disagree on the effectiveness of armored men and mages. You might want to look up Jeriah Chronos, Ioulaum, what Nikerymath did to Jhaamdath, and the Dark Disaster. Just sayin'.
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
If you look at the number of troops that defend towns in the Western Heartlands, you see the garrisons are scarily low. most rely on help from other citystates. Secomber (1100 inhabitants) for example relies on a stationed garrison of 30 men from the Lords Alliance, and while some cities boast small standing armies (Iriaebor), most rely on the resources of others. The Flaming Fists 1600 men strong mercenary force is active throughout the whole region. The 200 strong scimitar wielding Hellriders from Elturel ride forth between the riverbanks of the Chiontar and the Winding Water. An unknown number of Zhentilar can ride down from Darkhold to defend (or raze) the countrysides of Iriaebor and Hill's Edge. So any noble raising enough military presence will be a resource the local neigbouring rulers would love to (ab)use (be they from the Zhentarim of the Lords Alliance).
Though I agree with much of your post, this point is a little off the mark. The reason I say that is because of the difference between standing army and militia. An example from "Under Illefarn" & "Hordes of Dragonspear," during the Second Dragonspear War, Daggerford by itself fielded a force of 600 even though it has only 100 in its standing army. The Western Heartlands has no large nations so there are no patrolled borders and no warning that a large group of nasty-minded things are about to land on your doorstep until you can physically see them coming. The people of the Western Heartlands are on their own unlike the citizens of Calimshan, Cormyr, Sembia, and many other nations with manned borders and active law enforcement. The people who live in settlements typically have only each other to rely upon when death comes knocking. About a third or more of the population equips what weaponry and armor they have and form up the ranks of militia to defend their families and homes. Spears, knives, wood axes, farming sickles, bill hooks, hunting bows, metal caps, and leather coats are not military grade arms & armor but they still get the job done in the hands of the militia.
I doubt the Heralds would bother with listing the various militias because, woof, the sheer numbers involved and the likelihood that the members are to die where they are accounted for by their neighbors and/or are counted in the losses of the town through their own census records. But where would the Heralds sit with a bandit lord? For example, Zelarravyan Fangshield from Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast was rich and extravagantly equipped as were his captains which he called the Lord Knights of his "barony." Zelarravyan had been a mercenary soldier operating in Amn with a bloodlust so great that the Amnians collected a "treasury" (left ambiguous in the guide), commissioned him as a baron, and bade him to go settle the Backlands where the village of Yarthrain is on the Winding Water River near the Hill of Lost Souls. If Zelarravyan sent his fee to the Heralds, would he and his retinue of armored fighting men have been added to the roll of nobility? I have my doubts.
Just one other notion I have to write into this scroll. I always thought country nobility were called that because they are typically distant/absent from the ruling courts where the "real" nobility are engaging in intrigues or (more likely) whiling away their idleness with entertainments to keep from becoming bored. Because the country nobility are not constantly at the courts they are: not aware of the latest fashion trends, ignorant of the high-brow diversions, an outsider to the social circles rising & falling within the court, and a safe target for hazing & mocking by the court nobility. The 1996 french film "Ridicule" displays a protagonist country lord going to the court of Louis XVI for the first time and having to learn the ways of the court in order to petition the king. In my way of thinking, country nobles are not necessarily poor and/or lacking in political power but absent from court and lacking social status amongst the court nobility. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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The Emerald Sage
Acolyte
38 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2015 : 19:44:07
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The western heartlands are big enough for numerous self-made dukes and lords, ruling over their own petty fiefdoms (or even small kingdoms at the DM's discretion), and it's impossible for the Heralds to have documented all the bloodlines claiming nobility in faerun.
The romantic ideal of the knight in faerun is undoubtedly more fantasy than reality, just as it was in medieval europe but the chivalric ideal is maintained through the arts - we probably have the flowery poems and songs of the bards to thank for the number of adventuring companies gallavanting around proclaiming to be the knights of such-and-such, that's a cultural phenomonon.
This thread has really helped me cement my concept of the knight as a character. Within the realpolitik of the realms we have some very specific examples of the knight in practice:
- The Purple Dragon, or his equivalent in Tethyr, Silverymoon or Impiltur. A feudal knight, swearing fealty to a lord.
- The templar, a paladin who serves a specific religious order.
- The knight errant, as described by Ed Greenwood, many adventurers (of perhaps dubious 'noble' lineage), would fit this bracket.
- the classic paladin, a lone wolf similar to the knight errant but operating under an oath of principle.
- the tournament knight: this is just an idea on my part but I'm drawing from the excellent film A Knight's Tale (inspired by Chaucer's short story), and the idea of a jousting 'rock star' traversing the realms earning his crust (or maybe just building his legacy and bedding fair maidens) really appeals to me and it's distinct enough to warrant inclusion. |
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Knights by birth
