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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Apr 2014 : 13:58:27
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The new history of dragons article on the Wizard sites made me think...
What would be the bizzarest Dragons you could think of? How would they work in D&D? (Since Toril is filled with Portal from other universes, any of them could exist there)
Such dragons as the metallics (Vibranium, Adamantium) or the Chromatics (Octerine) or so on...
Like the Vibranium Dragon with it's explosive sonic attack, and it's ability to absorb most energy especially sound. Or it's rare Anti-metal mutation which can melt metal by touch and/or breath weapon?
Thoughts?
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Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2014 : 14:35:13
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Are you limiting the discussion to functional designs? Or are including the s'mores dragon that just popped into my head? 
Or a sodium dragon that bursts into flame (which wouldn't damage it) whenever it comes into contact with water. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2014 : 14:40:02
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The proliferation of dragons is one thing that's always bugged me about D&D.
Okay, so we've got the main bunch of metallics, and the main bunch of chromatics. I'm fine with that.
The gem dragons are okay, though its obvious they were created for no more purpose than having neutral dragons.
Aside from those, I don't see a need for too many other breeds. A couple oddballs, like steel dragons, song dragons, or fang dragons, are fine, but that's it.
Instead, we've had lesser metallics, lesser gemstones, lesser chromatics, and a host of goofy dragon types created simply to have more dragons.
I realize that the name of the game is Dungeons & Dragons, but in my opinion, the main breeds of chromatic and metallic fill most of our draconic needs. We don't need all those niche dragons -- the true dragons overlap most of those niches. |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2014 : 15:01:36
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The S'More dragon breaths out a cone of scaulding hot chocolate and marshmallow fluff with graham cracker bits.
Sodium Dragon not sure.
We have so many dragons which tend to overlap due to dragons haunting our imaginations. Which is why we have them all over the Earth. It is hard to contain the imagination, even if restricted by the rules of D&D.
Of course in D&D you don't need to use or even notice all of them. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2014 : 16:17:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
Of course in D&D you don't need to use or even notice all of them.
True... But in my mind, it would be better to focus on creating new and original critters, rather than endless variations on an already overly covered theme.
It's the same with undead. We have all the classic ones, but then there are ones that have identical creation methods to others and yet are dramatically different, and then there are the really weird ones, like my theoretical green howling yodeler -- "a green howling yodeler is created when a heartbroken half-elven male name Frehd falls off a mountain while yodeling, lands in a pool of green Jell-O, and then freezes to death while a trio of dire penguins laugh at his struggles to get out".
Yeah, that's over the top, but I've seen some official undead that have really unlikely origins, to the point of being near-ridiculous.
I'd rather have something wholly new, rather than "bizarrely formed undead #43,612" or "highly-specialized niche dragon #309".
Instead of "Pokopo dragons are majestic dragons that evolved on and are only found on the north shore of this one tiny island that's barely bigger than a halfling's bed," how about some highly intelligent amphibious monkey found on temperate shorelines?
Or instead of "ice cube dragons that occupy the same spot as white dragons but look like ice cubes and have a Slurpee breath weapon," how about some critter that burrows in ice, can suck heat out of nearby creatures, and has a natural ability to magically shape ice?
I've got nothing against the creation of more monsters, I just get tired of seeing undead and dragons every time a new monster book comes out. Especially considering that with draconic dominance of the food chain, some of these niche dragons should be quickly killed or driven off by true dragons. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2014 : 16:29:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
The S'More dragon breaths out a cone of scaulding hot chocolate and marshmallow fluff with graham cracker bits.
The S'More dragon in full glory:
http://articles.topwebcomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Smores-03.jpg
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2014 : 16:42:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
Of course in D&D you don't need to use or even notice all of them.
True... But in my mind, it would be better to focus on creating new and original critters, rather than endless variations on an already overly covered theme.
It's the same with undead. We have all the classic ones, but then there are ones that have identical creation methods to others and yet are dramatically different, and then there are the really weird ones, like my theoretical green howling yodeler -- "a green howling yodeler is created when a heartbroken half-elven male name Frehd falls off a mountain while yodeling, lands in a pool of green Jell-O, and then freezes to death while a trio of dire penguins laugh at his struggles to get out".
Yeah, that's over the top, but I've seen some official undead that have really unlikely origins, to the point of being near-ridiculous.
I'd rather have something wholly new, rather than "bizarrely formed undead #43,612" or "highly-specialized niche dragon #309".
Instead of "Pokopo dragons are majestic dragons that evolved on and are only found on the north shore of this one tiny island that's barely bigger than a halfling's bed," how about some highly intelligent amphibious monkey found on temperate shorelines?
Or instead of "ice cube dragons that occupy the same spot as white dragons but look like ice cubes and have a Slurpee breath weapon," how about some critter that burrows in ice, can suck heat out of nearby creatures, and has a natural ability to magically shape ice?
I've got nothing against the creation of more monsters, I just get tired of seeing undead and dragons every time a new monster book comes out. Especially considering that with draconic dominance of the food chain, some of these niche dragons should be quickly killed or driven off by true dragons.
I think what Ed did with the Wyrms of the North was an excellent way to flesh out some of the classics. A boring old green dragon you say? Maybe, but this one is slinging the same spells as that old archmage of old etc. |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2014 : 16:57:37
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Well, we who like the weird new dragons can play with them here.
While you play with these Dragons. Like the red dragon who is a normal member of it's species... save for the mental error which causes him to reject he's a red dragon, no matter how obvious the proof before him, and is convince he's a white dragon. That his fire breath weapon is Frost breath weapon and so on.... Even painting himself white.
Thoughts on this bizarre dragon? |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
Edited by - Foxhelm on 26 Apr 2014 16:58:11 |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2014 : 17:21:18
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The great furry parade pooper comes into being when Wooly thinks we're not being creative enough. Good points though, I've groaned a few times upon seeing weakly conceived new monsters and I've always wanted to see more effort/development put into the gem dragons.
As far as the red dragon who thinks he's white, that idea would be even stronger if he were an albino... I saw an adventure with one recently, probably in an old Dungeon issue since I've been going through those for lore. But an albino red dragon, particularly if he lost his parents or was separated from them at an early age and therefore didn't have anyone to teach him otherwise, could easily grow up thinking he's actually a mutant white dragon.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
The S'More dragon in full glory:
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2014 : 20:31:42
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned a very OLD article from Dragon Magazine many years ago, on creating variant dragon types. It was issue # 260, which also featured several variant Drake species, new Dragon gods, and a Dragon name generator. The article was simply titled "Draconic Designs", and gave tables for how to create new dragons that broke the mold, as it were, like an interesting example it gave of a white dragon that breathed fire instead of ice- it was the result of a rare cross between a red and white that came out looking like a normal white, but had the red's intelligence and breath weapon!
There were also variant shapes, colors, color patterns, head, limb, tail, and horn/spine types, wings/no wings, and other details that could make any dragon unique. It even mentioned variant versions of lyndwyrms, avian dragons, "hunting beast" types, sea serpent variants, and more! I've used a few of them on occasion, just to confound my players who THINK they "know their dragons".....
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
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Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2014 : 21:59:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
Well, we who like the weird new dragons can play with them here.
While you play with these Dragons. Like the red dragon who is a normal member of it's species... save for the mental error which causes him to reject he's a red dragon, no matter how obvious the proof before him, and is convince he's a white dragon. That his fire breath weapon is Frost breath weapon and so on.... Even painting himself white.
Thoughts on this bizarre dragon?
An albino red dragon |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2014 : 23:52:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I'm surprised no one has mentioned a very OLD article from Dragon Magazine many years ago, on creating variant dragon types. It was issue # 260, which also featured several variant Drake species, new Dragon gods, and a Dragon name generator. The article was simply titled "Draconic Designs", and gave tables for how to create new dragons that broke the mold, as it were, like an interesting example it gave of a white dragon that breathed fire instead of ice- it was the result of a rare cross between a red and white that came out looking like a normal white, but had the red's intelligence and breath weapon!
There were also variant shapes, colors, color patterns, head, limb, tail, and horn/spine types, wings/no wings, and other details that could make any dragon unique. It even mentioned variant versions of lyndwyrms, avian dragons, "hunting beast" types, sea serpent variants, and more! I've used a few of them on occasion, just to confound my players who THINK they "know their dragons".....
As I recall, FOR1 The Draconomicon had something like this, too. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2014 : 23:59:48
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
The great furry parade pooper comes into being when Wooly thinks we're not being creative enough. Good points though, I've groaned a few times upon seeing weakly conceived new monsters and I've always wanted to see more effort/development put into the gem dragons.
Not that *we* aren't being creative enough. I object to "hey, there aren't polka-dot, plaid, chartreuse, and sequined dragons, so let's make those!"
I have no problem with a regular dragon that's born albino, and Ed's Wyrms of the North are some great articles.
I think, though, that the majesty of dragons as a whole is diminished when we keep getting all those minor niche dragons. Similarly, the horror of undeath is diminished by making new types of undead a dime a dozen. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2014 : 01:30:28
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Sorry if I sounded critical, Wooly, it's meant in fun. 
I object to most silly monsters. The plush golem in a long-ago Dragon made me chuckle, but as a general rule I like my monsters to be srs bsns. I'm okay with adding yellow dragons to the chromatics, but I definitely draw the line at chartreuse.
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2014 : 01:36:51
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I don't use specific dragon species (colors). Each dragon in my campaign has a unique look and and may be any color imaginable. So you may encounter a dragon with red coloration (perhaps with specks of another color, or wings edged with another color) that breathes lightning. It keeps veteran players from automatically knowing what a dragon is capable of. No more "Oh look, a red dragon...break out the anti-fire magic!"
That said, the evil dragons 'tend' to be the classic chromatic colors and good dragons 'tend' to be the classic metallic colors...but that is never set in stone. A gold dragon has a decent chance of being neutral or evil, the same with a blue or red, etc. That way, if I want my players to have a decent chance of knowing what they're up against...they can assume the odds are it leans towards the 'classic' type of wyrm...but they can never be 100% sure until they start to fight.
Dragons also have a culture in my campaign instead of being random beasties in this or that mountain. They have specific rules of engagement (to prevent the decline/exctinction of their species (I use xorvinthaal for these rules...but they don't need to 'change' themselves through a ritual to engage in 'the game'). An Argonessen-type continent exists in my homebrew (like in Eberron) where they live by the thousands. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2392 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2014 : 02:02:06
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Fluffy dragon! 
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
As far as the red dragon who thinks he's white, that idea would be even stronger if he were an albino... [...] if he lost his parents or was separated from them at an early age and therefore didn't have anyone to teach him otherwise, could easily grow up thinking he's actually a mutant white dragon.
It's "crazy or stupid" at this point. Dragons aren't stupid. And if we're looking for crazy making sense and/or plot points... perhaps a beholder-mage's experimental study of Edorakk (beholder condition that causes lapses in species self-identification)?  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2014 : 02:52:41
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Sorry if I sounded critical, Wooly, it's meant in fun.
I object to most silly monsters. The plush golem in a long-ago Dragon made me chuckle, but as a general rule I like my monsters to be srs bsns. I'm okay with adding yellow dragons to the chromatics, but I definitely draw the line at chartreuse.
Can't be any weirder or goofier than the fruitcake elemental from MtG, or the Calzone golem from a Dragon on-line article. A plush golem just seems like a variant version of a doll golem from 2nd ed. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2014 : 03:34:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Can't be any weirder or goofier than the fruitcake elemental from MtG, or the Calzone golem from a Dragon on-line article. A plush golem just seems like a variant version of a doll golem from 2nd ed.
If I remember right, though, the doll golem was a creepy Ravenloft critter. Maybe I'm thinking of something else. Fruitcake elemental... that's awesome. Calzone golem would be much tastier than brain golem. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2014 : 06:37:02
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| Yes, it was. Ravenloft introduced a number of interesting golem types, IIRC. Glass golem, carrionette, among others. I think they were in the MC vol. 2, along with the Spider-stone golem (a nasty semi-sentient drow variety) and some of the "new" or "lesser" gem dragons like the Pearl, Jade, and Jacinth dragons. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2014 : 19:01:40
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-Are there any new Dragon "families" now, asides for the ones I'm familiar with, the Chromatic, Metallic, Gem, Lung, and Planar species'?
-Things that don't fit in those categories (Cloud Dragon, for example), I both like and don't like. Some of those Dragons are admittedly cool, so that much I like, but their falling outside of established categories irks me. I guess if enough similar ones were created (Cloud Dragon + Sun Dragon, Typhoon Dragon, Wind Dragon, and so on) those miscellaneous ones could be put into more 'proper' categories.
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(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2014 : 12:51:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
(...) A plush golem just seems like a variant version of a doll golem from 2nd ed.
Yes, but the doll golems appeared in Ravenloft because they are a terror element (especially clown porcelain dolls, and victorian style dolls, among others). I don't remember of a plush toy that thrilled me... 
EDIT: As for the topic of the thread, the (insectoid) Rust Dragon is quite strange. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 28 Apr 2014 12:53:17 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2014 : 16:29:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Actually, I believe the Cloud Dragon, Mist Dragon, and others of that sort are simply considered "Oriental Dragons", and are related to the Lungs.
-I've never seen that before, and don't believe that's right. Cloud and Mist Dragons are, well, "Western" Dragons, and not "Eastern" Dragons.
-FWIW, Wikipedia has a list of the different Dragon "families", and who is classified where. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)#Types_of_dragons |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2014 : 18:29:01
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Well, if you see the art and concept of the mist and cloud dragons, it is quite clear that they were inspired in oriental dragons. Also, mist and clouds (the weather elements, I say) are related to eastern dragons, too. Besides, both (along with the golden dragon) are found among the creatures in Kara-Tur, accordingly with the 1e Oriental Adventures sourcebook. So, I'm not sure if it is written elsewhere, but I can see the relation Alystra is talking about. Don't remember, though, if these dragons are mentioned in 2e Draconomicon, we should check it. The monster manual anual Jade Dragon also looks quite eastern, both in description, in art, and in being related to jade.
EDIT: In 2e Draconomicon mist dragons are not cited, and it is theorized that cloud dragons could be relatives of celestial (radiant) dragons, a branch distant from the eastern dragons. Once again, the evolutionary tree of dragons is questionable, as it is said in the very Draconomicon book. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 29 Apr 2014 12:22:57 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2014 : 12:08:21
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Yes, fire, ice, hooves and tentacles... I remember it. But like Lolth, he is too easily defeated.  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2014 : 13:21:33
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| Perhaps he was a machine run by tinkerer gnomes, looks like he has a trapdoor on his knee there. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2014 : 01:50:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Well, if you see the art and concept of the mist and cloud dragons, it is quite clear that they were inspired in oriental dragons.
-But they aren't classified as such. Were they, they'd be Lung Dragons as well. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2014 : 04:09:28
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| Not necessarily. I didn't say they WERE Lungs, but were related to them. As Barastir mentioned, they are found in Kara-Tur, their art and concept are both clearly Eastern in origin, and they seem to be a sort of weather-type/Celestial dragons. Neither has wings, much like Landwyrms, Eastern dragons, and the Norse Linnorms (which are somewhat different from the better-known Landwyrms.) There is obviously a connection, even if it's never been explicitly stated. And the Jade dragon IS Oriental (a cousin to the Western Emerald dragon but stated as Oriental), according to the MC Annual (Vol. 1) entry. So that one, at least, is confirmed. As for the other two, they also live in habitats befitting their "type" (clouds, or misty waterfalls and grottos) which also implies an Oriental nature, as most Eastern dragons also live in places that they share their names with. (River, Earth, and Sea Lungs, come to mind.) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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The Bizzarest Dragons Ever
