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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
 Posted - 21 May 2013 : 16:13:36
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Does planescape have any place in a forgotten realms campaign?
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 16:15:11
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It does if you want it to. Personally, my Realms is very un-Planescapey. To each their own.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 16:22:01
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I've always used Planescape's Great Wheel for the planes. That tree is stupid and ridiculous, IMO. So that's where people are coming from, if my players summon things or run into fiends.
Whether or not they ever venture out there depends a great deal on them. Planar campaigning is not exactly easy from the PC's perspective. It's also deadly, so it has to wait until the characters have some levels under their belts and magic in their packs. But with those caveats tossed out, if my characters want to go walking the wheel, I'm up for it. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 18:04:35
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I have it that sometimes interesting planar NPC's, artifacts or rumors come to the PC's, so yes, Planescape is a significant part of my FR campaigns if I want to. I have enough of a fondness for Fiends, the Gith people, Slaadi, Celestials, Eladrin and Inevitables and they all hail from their 2nd edition planescape home planes. Love me the intricacy of 2ed Planescape lore.
That said, the localised astral domains of the gods (as presented in the PGtF) I like to use aswell, largely putting the World Tree cosmology smacked over the supercosmology as presented in the planescape setting. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 18:08:27
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Before 3E, several of TSR's campaign settings, particular the Realms and Greyhawk, shared a common planar structure. Among other things, this made it easy to step across the planes to go from one campaign setting to another.
The planar structure described in Planescape was the planar structure of the Realms. The connections were in a lot of material, mostly in the form of portals to the planes or planar travelers. Planescape and the Realms were linked, but knowledge of one was not required for playing in the other. Depending on the campaign, you could venture all across the Realms and retire comfortably, never having left the Realms. Or you could start in the Realms, bop back and forth into the planes, and settle elsewhere...
So whether or not Planescape had a place in the Realms was up to the individual campaign. The connection was officially there, but nothing required using that connection.
Of course, then 3E came along and retconned it all... There is, in 3E, a canon connection to Sigil, which was in Planescape, but the Realms of 3E and later had a different planar structure and were disconnected from Planescape. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 18:14:48
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| Planescape belongs into the Realms. Sigil is the "known" center of the multiverse in which Toril is part of it. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 18:37:34
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| I heartily concur. While the Realms might not have been initially envisioned as connecting to the rest of the TSR cosmos, they were clearly envisioned as connecting to a whole host of other worlds (including this one as we all know), so it makes complete sense to have them grid into the TSR/2E universe as detailed by Planescape. The retcon peeling them off was a mere implementation of a new marketing strategy, not a tremendously well thought out revision of cosmology for it's own sake. |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 20:02:47
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Does planescape have any place in a forgotten realms campaign?
Heck yeah it does. If you're down with changing things up in your Realms game and using the Realms as a jumping off point to all sorts of interesting and bizarre realities, Planescape is for you.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Of course, then 3E came along and retconned it all...
Not entirely.
The 3E FRCS does not, in any way, explicitly rule out the existence of other worlds, other planes and other realities.
However, it does explicitly acknowledge that their are interloper deities and that certain races have come from other realities.
The mistake people keep making is that they conflate the FRCS' lack of focus (on Planescape) with some sort of retcon/overwrite.
The portals to other worlds and other realities are all still there. You're just not going to see the FRCS talk all that much about it. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 21 May 2013 20:04:03 |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2013 : 21:31:03
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4e mentions crystal spheres
-------------Quote from 4e source book---------------
In the beginning existed a misty realm of timeless
nothingness, crafted by Ao the Hidden One from the
raw elemental bedlam of the Phlogiston. Within this
dim sphere, several worlds drifted upon the Sea of
Night.
----------------------end quote--------------- |
Edited by - silverwolfer on 22 May 2013 21:39:56 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2013 : 23:19:33
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I borrow heavily from Planescape, but I don't use it exactly. It's also not directly a major factor in the day-to-day life of most people in the Realms. So yes, in that way, it's part of my Realms.
Basically, I don't use the Great Wheel. I use an inspired form of the 4E Cosmology, which I found more interesting, but it is heavily modified to be more like Planescape. It is also heavily influenced by Spelljammer.
So in my home Realms the Crystal Spheres float in the Astral Sea. Some Crystal Spheres are Prime Material Spheres, and they are orbited (similar to the Eberron Cosmology) by smaller Crystal Spheres that are Planar Crystal Spheres. Aside from the more direct ways of travel - which is only useful if you know where you're going - people sail across the Astral Sea in Spelljammers.
This is a very basic and loose overview of how things fit together. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2013 : 03:30:51
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I hold to the design aesthetic that ALL cosmological constructions are correct, depending on one's point of view (or "paradigm").
If people from different countries in a single world can have wildly different conceptions of reality, then I see no reason to expect that folk on entirely different planes of existence understand reality in similar ways at all. Add magic to the mix, and the multiverse becomes a huge, wondrous thing no one can truly describe, because no one can perceive it all.
Take the parable of the blind men and the elephant: five blind men are sent into a room with an elephant and told to describe it. One feels the stout leg and says it is like a mountain, another feels the trunk and says it is serpentine, another feels the tusks and says it is sharp and like bone, another feels the tail and says it is like a palm frond, another feels the massive ear and says it is flat and fragile. All of them are correct, even if those descriptors vary wildly, but none of them has the whole picture, which they *can't* get, because they're blind.
In a similar way, mortal adventurers (and perhaps even deific beings) are limited by their bounded understanding and perception. No one can truly comprehend infinity because no one's mind is truly infinite.
Many sages have tried, and they've come up with some very popular models (such as the Great Wheel, the Tree of Life, the Astral Sea above the Elemental Chaos). The sort of "standard cosmology" of any given edition simply reflects the most popular model of the moment. There's every reason to expect that those understandings will shift in time, but you better believe there are sages in 1480s era Candlekeep vigorously debating how the multiverse works. And the thing is, they're all equally correct and incorrect.
As a DM, you are encouraged to choose whichever conception of the outer planes you like and fit it to your Realms, or let it be loose and shift. I think a party where two or more PCs have completely different conceptions of the multiverse would be fascinating.
In the canon Realms, we authors and designers have to work with the standard cosmology of the edition we're using. but generally Realms products touch the planes only lightly and mostly in an off-stage way. If they *do* visit the outer planes, then they tend to be iconic places like Baator, Celestia, The Demonweb Pits, etc.--planes that exist regardless of edition, though the actual way they fit into the rest of the multiverse may vary.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2013 : 04:35:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I hold to the design aesthetic that ALL cosmological constructions are correct, depending on one's point of view (or "paradigm").
If people from different countries in a single world can have wildly different conceptions of reality, then I see no reason to expect that folk on entirely different planes of existence understand reality in similar ways at all. Add magic to the mix, and the multiverse becomes a huge, wondrous thing no one can truly describe, because no one can perceive it all.
Take the parable of the blind men and the elephant: five blind men are sent into a room with an elephant and told to describe it. One feels the stout leg and says it is like a mountain, another feels the trunk and says it is serpentine, another feels the tusks and says it is sharp and like bone, another feels the tail and says it is like a palm frond, another feels the massive ear and says it is flat and fragile. All of them are correct, even if those descriptors vary wildly, but none of them has the whole picture, which they *can't* get, because they're blind.
In a similar way, mortal adventurers (and perhaps even deific beings) are limited by their bounded understanding and perception. No one can truly comprehend infinity because no one's mind is truly infinite.
Many sages have tried, and they've come up with some very popular models (such as the Great Wheel, the Tree of Life, the Astral Sea above the Elemental Chaos). The sort of "standard cosmology" of any given edition simply reflects the most popular model of the moment. There's every reason to expect that those understandings will shift in time, but you better believe there are sages in 1480s era Candlekeep vigorously debating how the multiverse works. And the thing is, they're all equally correct and incorrect.
As a DM, you are encouraged to choose whichever conception of the outer planes you like and fit it to your Realms, or let it be loose and shift. I think a party where two or more PCs have completely different conceptions of the multiverse would be fascinating.
In the canon Realms, we authors and designers have to work with the standard cosmology of the edition we're using. but generally Realms products touch the planes only lightly and mostly in an off-stage way. If they *do* visit the outer planes, then they tend to be iconic places like Baator, Celestia, The Demonweb Pits, etc.--planes that exist regardless of edition, though the actual way they fit into the rest of the multiverse may vary.
Cheers
This is how I handle it from the perspective of the average scholar. Only a insanely small number of individuals have actually truly left Toril for another Prime World or Plane. Those that do more often than not "accidentally" step into the Feywild or the Shadowfell, and most of those that do never return.
Virtually no one on Toril knows the truth - but of course, there is a literal truth to the cosmos. The truth is a bit clearer for those who travel the planes, and hang out in a place like Sigil though. However, there is still a great deal of debate over some of the finer points.
Of course, it's difficult to imagine the true size of the multiverse. Just as an example the Elemental Chaos sits at the center of the Astral Sea and it's size would be many orders of magnitude larger than the Milky Way. The Milky Way is estimated to be roughly 100,000 light years across, and the Elemental Chaos is hundreds of times larger than that - this is unfathomably large - far to large to really comprehend or even explore completely. However, even that is dwarfed by the sheer size and scope of the Astral Sea (which is universal in scale), and both are constantly expanding.
As for the deities... well mortals don't know this, but the deities themselves are literally shaped by the faith of their worshipers. If someone were to see the world through the eyes of a deity, they would see something completely different than they would through mortal eyes - the entire view of reality is warped. Everything is slanted - in great and small ways - to reflect who and what they represent.
I borrow heavily on the Planescape idea that belief, philosophies, and ideologies shape the multiverse. This is turned up to eleven when it comes to the deities. Virtually everyone on Toril (and most Prime Worlds) are ignorant to this fact, but really at the end of the day who believes what is all that really matters in the multiverse. Entire Prime Material Spheres can (and have been known to) drift into the area of the Astral Sea known as the "lower planes"... and really this is what all the battle is over between gods and beings like Asmodeus and his "upper planes" counterparts. |
Edited by - Aldrick on 23 May 2013 04:37:05 |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2013 : 07:27:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I hold to the design aesthetic that ALL cosmological constructions are correct, depending on one's point of view (or "paradigm").
If people from different countries in a single world can have wildly different conceptions of reality, then I see no reason to expect that folk on entirely different planes of existence understand reality in similar ways at all. Add magic to the mix, and the multiverse becomes a huge, wondrous thing no one can truly describe, because no one can perceive it all.
Just to echo this and supplement it, I like using the concept that the planes are big. As in, really, really big. Infinite is an infinitely large number, after all. Different places can and almost certainly will have different ways of interacting with different "worlds" of the Material Plane. It might take the cosmological form of a tree for one world, because that's how that particular world/sphere connects to the multiverse (based on the whims of the sphere's creator). It might take the cosmological form of a wheel for another world, because that's how that particular sphere's creator envisioned it.
The planes are infinite, after all. Plenty of space for multiple possible "methods of interaction" to be true all at the same time. And, of course, travel far enough in the planes, and you leave one construct/interaction-method and enter another. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2013 : 12:58:10
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I use the Great Wheel, or rather, a scaled-down version of it. All the lower planes are 'the Nine Hells', and all the upper planes are 'Heaven'.
However, thats just an ease-of-use reference, and I think the real planer structure is unfathomable (by anything short of Overgod level). That means that although I look at it that way, the folks living on my FR might not. It could be a great tree, an enormous river, it could be a giant turtle, it couldn't even be a cosmic sandwich.
The bottom line is, it doesn't matter what sort of diagram we make of the planes - we can't draw in 11 dimensions (or more), so any model we create will be grossly inaccurate. So choose what you like best, but remember, that doesn't mean all the other choices are 'wrong', and everyone will have their own ideas (including all the NPCs on our game worlds).
How those preconceptions affect us (or rather, the folks in our games) depends upon belief. If someone from Toril thinks to get from point 'A' to 'point 'B' they must first past through 'C', then thats how it will work for them. They are limited only by their own beliefs, and when dealing with the Planes, belief IS reality. Their buddies from Greyhawk - who can easily go directly from 'A' to 'B' will think they are nuts, but that's okay - their friends beliefs (and reality) have no effect on them.
UNLESS someone with a VERY strong mind convinces everyone otherwise, in which case the rules switch to the 'new reality' they just learned.
The other thing is Gates/Portals, which can take any form and be of any size. This means that two Planes that are normally NOT coterminous could be connected by a Gate (conduit), which will affects people's beliefs. It also means that a gate could be the entire edge of a plane, and the other end of such a gate could be the entire edge of another plane... which could easily explain the Great Wheel. None of those planes really need be anywhere near each other - its just that mortals can't perceive a Gate that's near-infinite in size, and may not even realize they are walking through one (depending upon how the weather, physics, and everything else on the other side).
I also happen to think that Moonwells, "Pools of...", etc are energy-conduits leftover from a bygone era, and which can be re-attuned, and can even be used to transfer physical matter if one has the right 'key'. Most of the known ones in Moonshaes are attuned to the Earthmother (and the plane of Arboria), but that doesn't mean they can't be changed (as I believe Bhaal tried, IIRC). I like to imagine that one of the reasons why Toril is so special is that it has the largest number of these 'energy wells' of any known world, all leftover from when the Prime Material was one, unsundered plane (my own, HB world-specific cosmology/mythos).
If you think of the early universe as a giant construction project, then I imagine Toril as the 'trailer' where all the planning was done, and the architects and foremen hung-out.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 May 2013 13:02:05 |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2013 : 16:51:17
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Again, I'll heartily agree. What Markustay says about Toril occupying a 'special' spot in the geography of the cosmos is clearly what TSR (and then WoTC) intended when they made the Realms their 'flagship' world. We get to live with the downsides (new continents, and races, and classes oh my!) so we might as well embrace the upside. There is something special, something central, about Toril.
Of course, for me in my home campaign that has even greater meaning as I stress the ancient Earth/Realms connection from whence the term 'Forgotten Realms' first derived.
I view Toril as being akin to Thimhallan in the Weis/Hickman 'Darksword Triliogy' - a repository and refuge for all things magical/fantastical when such magic was driven from our world by the advancing forces of religion and science. Magical beings, races, gods, and the like that once existed on our world either withered away or made the transition to the magic rich/sustaining world of the Realms (which alone and unlike Greyhawk, Krynn, or other 'known' fantasy worlds has/had a Weave and a goddess tasked specifically with safeguarding and maintaining it).
This serves as a tidy explanation for the large number of the Earth/Realms connections, deity overlaps, and what not. It also gives my Earth originating PCs a basis for possessing a special status/destiny underlying their presence the Realms (and also goes a long way towards clarifying why the Chosen would have made such a concerted effort to share knowledge of their world with a certain literarily prolific Canadian we all know and love, Lol).
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Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2013 : 18:03:46
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| What makes the prime the prime? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2013 : 18:33:37
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Prime Real Estate?
But yeah, to add to what Kris said: I also relate The Realms basic premise to what went on in the Avalon novels by Marion Bradley. That 'the magic' is fleeing our RW, and that 'magical creatures' and other things fade from our view... that they slowly 'drift' elsewhere until we can no longer locate them.
This is sort-of FR's basic premise - that our own earth has 'lost connections' to other places (and not just Toril), and that magic needs to be used, and even loved. Its almost like a muscle. or organ, in a living body - if it goes unused it atrophies. Thus, it 'finds a new home'.
This relates not only to FR and Earth, but the D&Dverse in general. How do the Mists of Ravenloft grab folks that interest it? How does the 'haunted (enchanted) forest' suddenly appear where there was none before, way-laying unwarying travelers and bringing them to Faerie? Or Faerie-Mounds? What about the Border-towns from the Outlands? Are they not drawn-into the adjoining planes when they become too much like them?
Now, I am going to dip slightly into my RW beliefs on this subject - that 'like attracts like'. That everything has an energy field - probably multiple fields - that determine its place in the universe. When things go 'out of balance', the universe is self-correcting, and shunts whatever it perceives as 'wrong' into the right spot. I have even seen this subject touched upon in Scify - my much-beloved Well of Souls series (which I borrow quite a lot from). In those books, the 'old Ones' (Markovians) created vast gates that could 'scoop up' people and transfer them to the Well World, where they could get re-assigned (to other worlds and even other bodies). These were designed untold aeons ago, at that dawn of time, but they still work... they are triggered by 'dissatisfaction'. When something/someone feels like they just don't belong, or they are 'in the wrong place', the gates activate and bring them to the Well world.
I think it works a lot like this... except we can just cut out the middleman. We don't need the Markovians and their Gates - the entire universe works like this. It is sentient, in its own way, and makes these 'minor corrections' automatically (and BTW, I can explain nearly every type of paranormal phenomena with this theory). The Bible (and The Byrds  ) tells us To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven. That basically translates to 'there is a time and place for everything', and what that means is that if you (or something) doesn't know its its place... you'll find it anyway. You just need to believe; the universe (or God, or whatever) will take you there.
This also shoe-horns well with a lot of Oriental philosophy, both RW and FR. When Aesthetics (mystics) look inward and find 'greater truth', they are able to leave this world. Some call it ascension, others call it 'outer body experiences'. It doesn't really matter - the basic premise is that by seeing beyond the reality we know - the one we are comfortable with - we are able to alter who and where we are.
As I said, I believe a lot of this in the RW, but even if you think its all a crock of bull, it still works for FR (and D&D). Things go to where they need to be, or to put it another way, "You don't always get what you want, But if you try sometime, you just might find, You get what you need" (with apologies to Mick Jagger).
Hell - it even worked in Wizard of Oz - all Dorothy ever needed was to close her eyes and believe.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 May 2013 18:38:27 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2013 : 18:37:14
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
What makes the prime the prime?
I always figured it was the Prime because it was connected to all the other planes, and also because it mixed all of the elements of the Inner Planes. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2013 : 20:09:32
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Markustay,
Very ably (and poetically) put.
*doffs cap to you* |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2013 : 07:06:37
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FR used the Great Wheel from 1e through 2e, and even in 3e it essentially used it just with the serial numbers rubbed off (but retaining canonical connections to Sigil for instance). I could name dozens of NPCs from various parts of FR that pop up in Sigil and elsewhere on the planes (you can personally blame me for that cleric of Lathander showing up Elysium's gatetown of Ecstasy in 3.x, because I like FR and Planescape like peanut butter and jelly).
With 4e's rather radical changes to FR and its cosmology, there are some substantial and virtually irreconcilable differences regarding planar lore pre-4e and 4e. Entire planar races ceased to exist, others are presented with entirely altered history or identity to what they had been previously.
It would be easiest IMO going forward to largely gloss over those 4e PoL elements that were inserted rather hamhandedly into FR's planar history. And at the same time, as far as FR is concerned, it's probably best to largely gloss over specifics with regards to cosmology and planar history as whole, just to allow people to use what they want to use: be it the Great Wheel, the Tree, etc. There are so many differences between 4e and pre-4e that without retconning the 4e material, the continuity is completely shot unless you largely avoid getting specific. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2013 : 09:06:47
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| You can keep the continuity up if it is officially stated that the PoL 4e mess was a emerging view among scholars and sages, some by believe others by bribing or intimidation(might give plot hooks for interscientific rivalry with other means),yet after trying to claim itīs validity inconsistencies appeared that made the theory scientificly unreliable and everyone fell back the theories of before with some still holding to their new system. Have Ao and the other overgods repair the multiverse so the drastic changes of 4e are not so drastic anymore(like removing the Nine Hells from the heavens and put them back on opposite ground with an elevated abyss from the elemental chaos in an attempt to create once again a ballance of law and chaos, sort out the divine matters, remove some, bring back others to fill roles needed, reveal that the demons turned devils played the baatezu and have them return to the Abyss, and move on. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2013 : 22:52:29
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The wording of the OP query seems backwards to me - to me the Realms are a subset of Planescape, and indeed a nearly infinite number of "alternate" Realms (along with a nearly infinite number of Sigils!) must exist simultaneously. Of course all Primers think their particular Prime is the center of a universe filled with alternate Primes. The machinery of the cosmos is beyond the comprehension of puny mortals - even beyond that of puny gods! - the Great Wheel, the Cosmic Tree, the Astral Ocean, and other contradictory metaphors all simultaneously exist because they are only finite attempts to describe the infinitely indescribable. The Planescape rules emphasize a universe composed of places where belief is the building block of all reality; so clearly whatever metaphor you happen to believe is going to define (or exclude) all the realities you can perceive, access, and understand.
Short answer - the Forgotten Realms, my Realms, your Realms, 3E canon Realms, even 4E canon Realms all exist somewhere within the D&D-verse described within and beyond the Planescape rules. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 24 May 2013 22:55:03 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2013 : 00:06:18
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| Maybe it was just me, but the way I read the OP was that he was asking if Planescape knowledge and lore was required for playing in the Realms. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2013 : 00:19:36
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| No, I was asking if the mega setting that is planescape, has any place within the setting of forgotten realms |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2013 : 01:19:54
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
No, I was asking if the mega setting that is planescape, has any place within the setting of forgotten realms
My bad, then. In that case, I'd echo Ayrik: the Realms is a smaller part of the larger setting that is Planescape. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2013 : 03:00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
No, I was asking if the mega setting that is planescape, has any place within the setting of forgotten realms
My bad, then. In that case, I'd echo Ayrik: the Realms is a smaller part of the larger setting that is Planescape.
Yes. Ideally, we'd all look to a vast and expansive D&D multiverse as encompassing practically every world/setting published for AD&D.
Though, depending upon the individual perspectives of DMs, that expansive focus would wax and wane as the needs of each of the individual worlds demanded. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2013 : 00:42:52
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Well, seen from a more gamer-oriented perspective - Planescape is simply another campaign setting. It provides an "in-setting" fabric which links together numerous other worlds, but ultimately it's just a multiplanar D&D sophistication on the fine ancient greek storytelling tradition of having adventurers move (apparently at random yet actually as the narrator/story desires) between exotic islands (planes) filled with exotic monsters and problems and adversaries. Planescape is, in essence, nothing more than a D&D ocean in which every D&D product floats and bobs around just barely within reach of the adventurers which seek them out - planes are basically just places, settings, islands, which can each exist in any entirely implausible or isolated state a story requires.
My experience is that once PCs realize the planes are sort of a "normal" environment they can expect to have fun within, especially if they can always access a "central" base of operations like Sigil, they grow more interested in exploring all their new options and less interested in sticking around some little mudball like Oerth, Toril, or Krynn. More focus on the planes will invariably less on the Realms; if you prefer to keep things grounded in the Realms then you must make the planes inaccessible, hostile, and scary. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2013 : 19:03:53
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Ayrik,
The same thing can be said of Spelljammer/the introduction of Spelljamming technology to a campaign. If the DM uses either planar travel or 'space' travel sparingly (to spice up the meal rather than as a main course) it is possible to keep the girls on the farm after they have been to Paris (so to speak).
However, I'd note that perhaps there is something to the fact that the 'Golden Era' of planar and world travel was the 2E era (i.e. before the Spellplague and at the very start of the 'Era of Upheaval'). A clever DM playing in the 4E Realms can introduce elements of both (or just one) while effectively making them the 'lost technology of a past glorious era' and preserving the inaccessible, hostile, and scary aspects (CoC style). |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2013 : 09:38:26
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| Most of the time for FR designers Planescape did not exist, they use generic planar creatures like demons and devils. On the other side most famous PS characters like Rowan, Arwyl, Lissandra, Bancho Rake, were from the Realms. No doubt about it, the most frequently represented world among the primes on the planes is Toril. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2013 : 23:29:18
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quote:
No doubt about it, the most frequently represented world among the primes on the planes is Toril.
Perhaps this is true, but I think not. As of my pre-4E lore collection, it seems that Oerth/Greyhawk is possibly the most frequently mentioned Prime found among planar folk, with Ravenloft perhaps coming in for a close second and all other (A)D&D settings being represented about evenly. This seems to be a trend started in (2E) Planescape lore which never really changed. Though I might be mistaken. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2013 : 07:40:01
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| It says in Planewalker's Handbook that Toril has the most visitors, I'm not sure what's the traffic with the Harmonium home world. Oerth's presence did increase during 3e days when Greyhawk was Core and in Dragon and Dungeon, but in the game that doesn't change the number of portals and planar pathways. Ravenloft was rarely mentioned, just a few times about people who went there and haven't returned, I've seen more of Athas and Krynn. |
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Topic |
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Is planescape =/= Forgotten realms?
