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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Oct 2012 : 10:41:23
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I recently finished reading Shadowbred, in an attempt to gain all the information I can about what happened in Sembia. One of the main characters of the book, a priestess of Shar, is addicted to a drug called minddust.
Drugs have never really featured heavily into anything I've done before, especially when it came to the clergy of deities. Reading the book actually caused me to stop and think, and realize just how much my own personal view and preconceptions of drugs have colored my games. Meaning that if it ever comes up, it's mostly in an "evil" context. (Probably not surprising considering that I don't even smoke or drink.  )
So, thanks to Paul Kemp he planted a little seed in my mind about drugs and priests... and that's when the awesomeness happened. I pulled open Faiths and Pantheons just to double check to make sure that the idea didn't violate any dogmas... and it didn't.
I'm looking for opinions from the good folks here on whether or not the churches of Chauntea and Sharess would support these actions. I could imagine division and the like within the clergy, but I don't think it violates the tenets of either faith.
Okay, so here is what I envisioned. Outside of Waterdeep (or a similarly large trading center), the clergy of Chauntea owns the deed to a great deal of farming land (perhaps Goldenfields?).
The clergy of Sharess have recently discovered a wonder drug (perhaps from Maztica?). It's like crack and ecstasy got together, had a baby, and left it on Sharess' doorstep. When you take this drug you're filled with energy, all negative emotions are numbed or washed away, you're filled with happiness and joy, and every pleasurable sensation that you can imagine is greatly enhanced. The downside is that the stuff is crazy addictive.
Now, I imagine in my mind that something like this would seem almost like a holy relic in the eyes of the clergy of Sharess. This is something that takes away things that are unpleasurable AND enhances pleasure? This is like holy water to them. This is sacred.
So, they decide to do what they do and throw a party. They invite the high priest of Chauntea, because they know that this particular temple owns the deed to a great deal of farming land outside the city. So the high priest shows up, and the priestesses of Sharess are like, "Hey, we've got some awesome stuff from Maztica that you ought to try." Needless to say the High Priest of Chauntea gets hooked - literally.
The priestesses of Sharess do some wheeling and dealing and convince the High Priest that he really ought to start growing this stuff. He agrees that it sounds like a fantastic idea, and so the farmers start growing this stuff instead of legumes in their crop rotation.
Now, if you're like me you probably blow off Chauntea a bit. It's a deity for farmers, and is great for background fluff. However, you can farm more than grain and other such foodstuffs. Looking over the dogma it doesn't require you to grow anything in particular; it just requires you to grow things. So, it is not a direct conflict for them to begin growing drug related plants.
Needless to say, this drug plant takes off. In a big way. The clergy of Chauntea grow it, and then sell the plants to the clergy of Sharess, who refine the drug and sell it. It becomes popular among nobles, merchants... it's like smoking cigarettes in the 1920's - all the cool, rich, and powerful people are doing it. You want to be cool, rich, and powerful right?
This has the nice little side effect of making the clergy of Chauntea and Sharess insanely flush with cash. The drug operation grows and suddenly now they're exporting the stuff. They become crazy, crazy, crazy rich.
To increase production the church of Chauntea is buying up more land, and the church of Sharess is buying up more warehouse space in Waterdeep...
...and the mass production makes it cheaper, more affordable for the average joe...
Suddenly, everyone starts to seem addicted to the wonder drug.
I could even see ways to bring Lliira into the mix, since her clergy is allied with Sharess, and she's a goddess of freedom, liberty, happiness, joy, and dance. "Each day is another movement in the Elysian Rigadoon, the joyful dance of life lived in rapture and without care or frustration. Seek joy always by working to bestow it upon others. Festivals are for all - gather into celebrations the lost, the lonely, the exiled and the outlaw, the shunned, and even your foes. Let folk follow their own desires, and never fail to follow your own."
In nations and city-states where drugs are outlawed, Lliira just screams, "Legalize it!" to me.
I could just imagine this drug being billed as a way to lift the common man out of the doldrums of his daily life, into a higher and more joyful place - filled with the ecstasy of Sharess and the liberating freedom of Lliira. The doors swing open, and all are welcomed to come and partake in the pleasure.
Then of course, the downsides appear... people can't function without the drug, and the clergy can't afford to produce it for free... a group of intrepid adventurers discover a young dock hand having horrific withdrawal symptoms, begging and pleading for them to give him money so that he can once again experience the higher pleasures of Sharess and Lliira...
So, what are people's thoughts... none of this violates any of the dogma set forth by the deities, and a reading of Sharess' dogma pretty much explicitly states that anything that provides pleasure is good. Is this a good way to incorporate non-evil deities and churches as potential "villains" in a game?
Would they even be considered "villains" at all, or would this simply be par for the course? I'm interested in everyone's thoughts and feedback.
P.S. I did a scan through replies made by Ed on the topic. There actually isn't a whole lot, but this response from THO directly touches on the topic being discussed.
quote:
Hi again, all. Tyranthraxus, most cities and "market towns" in the Realms have alchemists or herbalists or both (shops, that is), and of course most farmers (crofters) and rural villages have ample supplies of grown-right-there herbs as well as "harvested from hedgerows and woodlots or the wild" herbs. However, the Realms DOESN'T have laws against soft or hard recreational herbal drugs (the very concept is unknown, because herbs and other plants have always been used for home medicines, and for trance-inducing, hallucinogenic, and mood-altering purposes IN TEMPLES, by the priests of the Realms (of almost all faiths).
As a result, there's no market need in the Realms for what's sometimes called in our real world a "head shop" or a "funk shop" or any "counter-culture" gathering place or vendor of drugs and associated items ("bongs", music, T-shirts, etc.).
No drug trade, no drug laws and police enforcement of them...none of that. If an idiot "drives" a wagon or chariot when stoned or drunk and does damage, citizens mete out rough justice on the spot, or the Watch in a city comes and arrests and takes the miscreant to justice for the damage done and for the reckless endangerment of the behavior that caused said damage...NOT for the drugs. (Again, in a setting where EVERYONE "believes" in all of the gods without necessarily having to take anything on faith, and priests habitually make use of drugs in holy rituals involving themselves and lay worshippers, the very concept of "drugs being illegal" is unknown.)
The one exception I know of is: military discipline. In many of the armies and local lawkeeping forces (i.e. City Watches) of the Realms, it's an offense to be drunk or stoned on duty.
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2012 : 14:24:31
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As soon as the clergies get this drug thing going and word reaches the right ears you will have "villain" groups trying to aquire the knowledge to produce it themselves, the Zhentarim definatly would.
Form my perspective i wouldnīt see an issue with the churches doing it, but it might have internal debates and arguments of the clergy of Chauntea who are "pro drug" or "contra drug" because the effects of it may reduce productivity of farmers and that would result in less outcome in growth. Same would be for Sharess who would have to deal with the downside of withdrawle effects on the clergy, same for the lliiran section.
I would further see the churches of Helm and Torm or Tyr opposing it as it effects the performing of duty when your under the influence of drugs, same goes for the Red Knight, you canīt do sound strategies when your mind is clouded. The church of Oghma might research the effects of the drug on society and record it. The other churches might be indifferent to it as long as it doesnīt directly effect them. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
Edited by - Lord Bane on 26 Oct 2012 14:25:34 |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2012 : 15:05:43
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| I find the OP an interesting twist on things. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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xaviera
Learned Scribe
Canada
149 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2012 : 15:44:23
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As in RL there will be different schools of thought within each religion that will run from conservative to liberal and even heretical.
From a Sharessan perspective, I think there are several schools of thought on this issue.
First, some Sharessin might shun drugs entirely, taking the Goddess' dogma as emphasizing experience of 'natural' (i.e. 'pure' or unaltered) sensations of the 'real world'.
Second, some would entertain the use of drugs on occasion simply for the expanded experiences that altered states of consciousness might produce and/or as exercises in learning the limits of their own tolerance for certain sensations/experiences (as one determines, for example, how much alcohol one can consume before becoming ill, though probably in a somewhat more controlled manner  ).
In both cases, there would be a belief that too much drug use is harmful because it prevents one from fully enjoying the 'truth' or 'purity' of experiences granted by the Goddess. (I think this group would have similar attitudes toward pain, i.e. the Loviataran belief that one should basically experience as much pain as possible in order to learn to overcome it - although some Sharessin find themselves indulging in a more Loviataran experience, most Sharessin probably believe that too much pain damages or dulls the capacity to experience subtle sensations and thus the true experience of their Goddess.)
Third, there will be those who interpret Sharess' dogma as "anything goes". These will be the ones most likely to use drugs to excess and/or to engage in Loviataran-style activities.
Fourth, given that Shar and Sharess spent several centuries together as the Maidens of the Forbidden Fruit and that her clerics may also (presumably once they've become jaded enough) fall into Sharran worship, there would probably be some openness to the use of drugs within this group. In fact, closet Sharrans within the church might even deliberately use mind-altering drugs, then leading them to despair at their addictions, as a way of forcefully recruiting Sharessin and, later, controlling their behaviour by controlling access to the drug. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if many Sharrans (whether previously Sharessin or not) were drug users.
In general, I think the majority of Sharessin would tolerate some drug (or alcohol) use under the principle of "everything in moderation - including moderation!" Those Sharessin who are also members of the Society of Sensation or the Children of the Vine would probably fall into the second, third or fourth groups.
I've touched on these themes in Chapter 4, "Pleasure, Pain and Excess", on the first page of my topic "Writings on Sharess: Thoughts & Prayers" (see my sig for a link). I'm also planning to write a (very) short story in the near future on the freeing of Sharess from Shar in which the despair of drug addiction (to dream mist, in this case) will play a role in the latter's domination of the former.
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Writings on Sharess: Thoughts & Prayers by Xaviera ~ High Priestess of Sharess |
Edited by - xaviera on 26 Oct 2012 16:03:29 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2012 : 16:10:35
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Lord Bane - That's pretty much how I see things as well. I imagine some degree of conflict within the clergies themselves, but since it doesn't violate any aspect of the deities dogma there isn't going to be any negative implications from the deities themselves.
A great number of outside groups (not just the Zhents), who see ways to exploit the drug for personal gain, would want to steal the secrets on how to refine / create it. However, I think such groups would still need the churches as legitimate cover.
Basically, I see the clergy pushing the drug for religious reasons. Even though they're benefiting financially, I don't see them doing it for the sole reason to get people addicted and to make money. It's not intended to be malicious. To someone worshiping Sharess or Lliira, every time you take the drug you're experiencing the ecstasy offered by these deities.
I imagine it starting out as a party drug and then quickly becomes more recreational due to its addictive nature. The clergy and the lay worshipers are the first impacted, followed by those invited to their revels. From there word of the wonder drug spreads, and more people begin to flock to the temples, shrines, parties, and festivals held by the clergy. Everyone wants to try it.
And here is the thing, because there is no "War on Drugs" like in the real world, and clerics already use mood altering drugs... there is already a culture that is ripe for this type of thing to spread. They aren't going to imagine anything wrong with it.
If anything they're going to see the benefit. First the increased interest in their faiths, which would please their deities. Second, the economic boon it would be for the faith as people are willing to buy the stuff.
The demand for the drug would necessitate ways to increase its supply. Since we're assuming that it can be grown and cultivated outside of its native environment (the primary plant ingredient is highly resilient), then it naturally follows to seek out the clergy of Chauntea for aid. The clergy of Sharess and Lliira may not be natural allies with Chauntea, but that's more because they don't have much in common than the fact that they're enemies. They operate within two completely different spheres.
The economic incentives alone are strong incentive for the Chautean faithful to get on board. However, most likely they'd end up addicted as well after trying the stuff.
And therein lays the real problem of combating it, and why I think the pro-drug forces within the faiths will win out. First, the economics favor them. Those with the gold make the rules. Second, they themselves would end up addicted. In the wise words of Biggie Smalls, who wrote the Ten Crack Commandments, Commandment Number Four: "Never get high on your own supply."
They're getting high off their own supply. The clergies are as addicted to the stuff as the lay people, and as we know drug addiction is something hard to beat. By the time anyone realizes the negative impact that the drug is having on society, it's going to be too late. The pushers are addicts themselves, and the economics alone will ensure things continue rolling forward.
So, I'm not sure how exactly this is stopped once it gets started up. I certainly see many churches - particularly very lawful churches as you pointed out - being against it. However, at the end of the day I'm not sure how they stop it once it starts to become wide spread.
Since it can basically roll in through the gate under the guise of legitimate religious use, by the time those that oppose the drug take notice it's already too late. (At least for the clergy and lay folk.) Those that try to ban it or suppress its use would be putting themselves at odds with not only the established culture, the faiths themselves (who are flush with drug money), but also the addicted lay people who want / need it - many of whom are likely to be wealthy and influential. I imagine the clergy of Sharess entertaining nobles and wealthy merchants frequently with their revels, which is likely where they're all first introduced to it (as noted above).
So, once it starts, how does it stop? I can imagine things getting really ugly, really fast, for those who stand in the way. |
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xaviera
Learned Scribe
Canada
149 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2012 : 16:15:29
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To expand on your specific topics, Aldrick, I don't think the clergy of Sharess would go so far as to deliberately hook someone on drugs (particularly as a method of manipulation) if one considers that the dogma of Sharess (as interpreted by many of her followers) is the freedom to enjoy sensations and experience life. Secondly, I think they'd be very leery of a drug that was highly addictive for the same reason - that is, it removes one's freedom to act as one wishes. Again, this is just my opinion, and I suspect that some of the more corrupt or heretical branches of the church might consider doing something along those lines, though perhaps in a more surreptitious manner ("Oh, no! We didn't realize it was so addictive, we're very sorry! *wink wink* But thanks for signing over the deed for that land and, by the way, we have a few other favours we'd like to ask in exchange for your next fix...").
Now, if there's a long latency before one realizes that one is indeed hooked on the drug, you could certainly end up with a significant portion of the local clergy addicted. This might very well motivate them to cooperate in the growing & manufacture just to secure their own supply, but whether or not they'd participate in distribution to a wider audience really depends on who's running the local outfit. One group might try to monopolize the supply themselves in order to prevent others from getting hooked (on the grounds that it infringes on their freedom) while at the same time keeping enough for their own use. Another group (perhaps Sharran-influenced, or maybe just particularly weak-willed) might fall under the control of another group by threats of having their supply removed and become (unwilling) participants in an expanding network.
It also depends on whether or not Heal spells or similar magics can reverse an addiction, or whether various mind-strengthening or protective spells can stave off the cravings.
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Writings on Sharess: Thoughts & Prayers by Xaviera ~ High Priestess of Sharess |
Edited by - xaviera on 26 Oct 2012 16:23:38 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2012 : 16:30:46
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xaviera - Yeah, I don't generally see it as being intentionally malicious. My feeling is that the clergy and the lay folk end up hooked before they realize how addictive it is...
...and something else I'm trying to keep in the forefront of my mind. They don't have the same understanding and view on drugs that we have in the modern world. In other words, I've always approached drugs in the Realms through the lens of: drugs = bad. And of course, they're bad for obvious reasons - they're highly addictive!
However, it doesn't necessarily follow that someone from another culture would view drugs in that light. It doesn't even follow that they would view the addiction as a bad thing!
"Of course it is addictive! Who could not help but become addicted to the wonders of Sharess? When you have taken but a glimpse of the ecstasy of the Dancing Lady, you cannot help but want for more."
They could see the addiction, not as a byproduct of the drug itself, but as a direct result of the religious experience. It naturally follows that people would desire pleasurable things that make them happy. Why, exactly, they could wonder is that a bad thing. Isn't that the point? |
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xaviera
Learned Scribe
Canada
149 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2012 : 16:38:34
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I absolutely agree that the situation could evolve in the way you've suggested and I don't disagree with your interpretation. My own 'take' on Sharessan philosophy is more of a 'do what you will, but harm none' philosophy, which I see as similar to the change in the Christian view of God from the Old Testament to New Testament authors. Certainly there would be other schools of thought within the church of Sharess, as I've noted above, and some of them might be entirely comfortable with the view you've expressed. It's not like Sharessan dogma is particularly rigid, after all (there's a bad joke in there...  ). If you're looking for a campaign arc, you could even have several different Sharessan temples acting at cross-purposes due to their differences of opinion on the matter!
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Writings on Sharess: Thoughts & Prayers by Xaviera ~ High Priestess of Sharess |
Edited by - xaviera on 26 Oct 2012 16:39:37 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2012 : 16:53:12
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xaviera - I'm not disagreeing with anything you said, because I think you're right on the money. My own feeling is that the clergies would be divided on the issue. That's not a bad thing, conflict is what makes stories awesome.
I also think you bring up a good point that I haven't considered... what type of magic could cure an addiction? My feeling is that, unless we wanted to treat drug addiction as a minor thing in the setting, it should only be curable by something like the casting of Miracle.
Something that you also touched on very briefly, but should be expanded upon... how common is recreational drug use among the faithful of Sharess at the moment? The type of culture that exists in the faith at the moment highly influences how easily and quickly something like this spreads.
My guess is that some form of drug use (not necessarily all addictive) is common throughout most of the faiths, based on the quote I posted from THO in my original post.
My gut feeling is that many of the faithful of Sharess are probably already recreational drug users. Not necessarily hard drugs, but basically users of the Realms equivalent of pot and probably ecstasy as well... and probably a score of other similar drugs.
I like the idea of a conservative group of Sharessen, who basically take the approach that pleasure should only be obtained through natural means. "I'm high on life!"
I imagine that they're probably a minority group within the faith though. |
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xaviera
Learned Scribe
Canada
149 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2012 : 17:12:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
My guess is that some form of drug use (not necessarily all addictive) is common throughout most of the faiths, based on the quote I posted from THO in my original post.
My gut feeling is that many of the faithful of Sharess are probably already recreational drug users. Not necessarily hard drugs, but basically users of the Realms equivalent of pot and probably ecstasy as well... and probably a score of other similar drugs.
I have no idea what the answer to this is. I have the feeling that, in three out of four of the groups I mentioned in my original response to you (excluding the 'high on life' conservatives  ) there will certainly be 'some' recreational drug use, if only in a teaching/training capacity (by which I mean deliberately introducing initiates to certain drugs in a fairly controlled/scripted setting in order to give them specific experiences). But exactly what constitutes 'some' is debatable. Daily? Weekly? Monthly?
Broadly speaking, I think it would be somewhere between weekly and monthly. I think we can probably consider real-world use of alcohol as a rough guide - some people don't drink at all, some have drinks with friends or go to a party one night a week, and some have a drink or two every day. Given that the effects of many drugs last several hours, I think that daily use wouldn't be all that common, especially if you are a lay member of the temple and have a 'day job' crafting barrels, picking turnips or whatever. However, some (I don't think a majority) of those who are fully supported by the temple might indeed use drugs daily.
Also, don't forget the difference between recreational and religious use. The use of drugs for religious purposes is a special event that is special in part because of its rarity. If a drug is powerful, using it regularly would reduce and cheapen the impact of the experience (and 'the experience' is what Sharessin are all about, really). Given the particulars of the drug you're proposing, though, this might not be that much of an issue.
I think that a very general response to your question about frequency of drug use would probably be 'weekly' on average but, depending on the philosophy of the particular temple and one's own predilection for drug-taking, that could vary upwards or downwards. For example, some people might use drugs only in ritual settings and never outside of that, either for philosophical reasons or because they just don't care for them.
On a final note, I think that, in those temples where drug use is actually practiced for religious reasons, initiates would be exposed to a variety of different drugs. However, as in real life one may have personal preferences and recreational (i.e. non-ritual) use, if any, might be limited to one or two.
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Writings on Sharess: Thoughts & Prayers by Xaviera ~ High Priestess of Sharess |
Edited by - xaviera on 26 Oct 2012 17:36:56 |
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Uncommon villains: Sharess, Chauntea & Lliira.
