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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 04:37:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
This has been rattling around my brain for some time,but how would a DM rule this situation;
A wizard creates the magic circle to summon a elemental/demon/devil etc(whatever you want) and uses the silver powder and stuff. Now the circle is created and the spirit summoned, with planar binding as an example. The wizard however approaches the circle and crosses it. Does the magic of the circle break and therefore the spirit is loose or...
The circle exists for a reason. Breaking the circle is bad. |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 05:37:14
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Ultimately, it depends on the game rules you are using, but most of them (and classic 'Occult Lore') suggest that as soon as ANYTHING breaks the plane of the circle it is useless as a protection or containment tool.
Now, if you want to cast your summoning spell while standing INSIDE the circle, your circle should still hold and you'd get the same impact on yourself as if you'd crossed it (i.e. badness most likely). However, keep in mind that your dead body (or your sprayed blood) still counts as an object breaking the circle, so unless you've got one hell of a plan to control that fiend (and not get attacked or tossed around) I wouldn't recommend it.
Why would the caster want to be inside his or her circle with the outsider? What's the game plan there? Maybe there is a better way to skin that cat. |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 06:35:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Which issue?
Dragon 353 I believe.
Which would have been about a year before the 4e conversion.
Which isn't to say it's invalid lore, just not compatible with the 4e cosmetology which casts succubi as devils. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 07:00:56
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I had a reply... several actually... I erased it all.
You know when you start quoting the Hammurabi law code for your argument, its time to go to bed.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 05:30:12
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| Can fiends suffer effects of insanity/confusion/feeblemind etc inducing spells? The only thing I have to go on is RAS Siege of Darkness where the psionic powers of House Oblodra was useless, in terms of mind blasting, againts Errtu's minions. Anyone got any ideas? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 11:25:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Can fiends suffer effects of insanity/confusion/feeblemind etc inducing spells? The only thing I have to go on is RAS Siege of Darkness where the psionic powers of House Oblodra was useless, in terms of mind blasting, againts Errtu's minions. Anyone got any ideas?
Most of them can be affected, unless they're specifically immune (like for instance arcanaloths being immune to all mind-affecting spells and abilities). But even if they can be affected, you still have spell-resistance to overcome in most cases, plus typically high saves by virtue of being outsiders. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 04:15:07
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| Does anyone have info on brachina(pleasure devils)? What are their goals/powers/extent of their abilities? Would like to know more about these particular fiends... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 10:29:34
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| Fiendish Codex II - Tyrants of the Nine Hells has an entry on the Brachnia which should give you some insight into them. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 05:18:34
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| To anyone who has read Richard Lee Byers Haunted Land trilogy, the Zulkir of Conjuration Nevron displays a quick summoning powers due to binding demons/devils into his tattoos, amulets, rings and so on...How does that work, and moreover if say he binds a bearded devil or such into a ring, he summons it from the ring and it gets killed, what happens to the fiend, does it go back into the ring or back to the infernal planes? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 05:33:13
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As I understand, a Conjurer can bind only "living" fiends in a magical artifact. So a dead fiend goes back to the infernal planes. If it gets reborn in the same or some other form, then its original summoner may still summon it again. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 07:57:28
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| Nevron's tattoos are glorified iron flasks, from the SRD. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 14:24:25
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| But even iron flasks dont say what happens when the fiend is "killed" |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 14:41:55
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AFAIK, Fiends always return to their plane of origin when they die on the prime material plane. I would think only a major artifact could thwart one of the principle building blocks of the multiverse.
EDIT: I just thought about this a little more, and was thinking about how genies and Djinn Bottles work - its basically the same thing. If an outsider is bound to an item and it is killed, it should re-manifest on its home plane... but is it still bound?
Do these items - tattoos, bottles, flasks, etc actually contain the creature, or is it just on a 'short leash' and can be summoned 'from elsewhere' as needed? Even if they do work this way (the creature is summoned upon activation), is it still bound after death? It would seem to me that it would be in an outsider's best interest to be killed, then, which is never how its presented in fiction. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2013 14:47:21 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 14:51:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
AFAIK, Fiends always return to their plane of origin when they die on the prime material plane. I would think only a major artifact could thwart one of the principle building blocks of the multiverse.
EDIT: I just thought about this a little more, and was thinking about how genies and Djinn Bottles work - its basically the same thing. If an outsider is bound to an item and it is killed, it should re-manifest on its home plane... but is it still bound?
Do these items - tattoos, bottles, flasks, etc actually contain the creature, or is it just on a 'short leash' and can be summoned 'from elsewhere' as needed? Even if they do work this way (the creature is summoned upon activation), is it still bound after death? It would seem to me that it would be in an outsider's best interest to be killed, then, which is never how its presented in fiction.
and is this "elsewhere" on their home plane? Such that they are killed, but they return to the trap. Who knows, the elsewhere might be a hollowed out section of the "earth" with binding spells in place on their home plane with no obvious exits or entrances (and possibly a teleportation blocking effect that only works if one has the key). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 15:05:42
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I think the only way this could all work and not break any 'rules' (D&D or 'multiverse') is that when any outsider is trapped within an item it is just literally bound to it, not inside it. When 'called forth' they are summoned from their home plane and forced to do whatever the binder (or possessor of the item) wishes.
I was thinking of some sort of 'cage' on their home plane, but maybe its not as simple as that. Maybe the magic merely binds them to their home plane/layer (so that they cannot leave and go to another plane/layer where they may be able to use that domains attributes to break free). Thus, the fiend can wander around the hells or whatever but not enter the domain of a god (or an archfiend, I am thinking), because moving from the home plane/layer proper to the domain of the power would constitute a 'crossing a line' that the spell does not allow.
So those items (and tattoos) maybe work like being under house-arrest. In fact, It might be fun to actually portray the outsider as having some physical adornment that others can see (like a collar). Fiends seeing another fiend with such a thing would probably avoid it, out of fear that it would be next (because the bound fiend could give their names to the binder). So the poor thing would be miserable - if it was an archfiend it probably couldn't even enter its own home (or conversely, be stuck within its abode).
So a fiend learns the hard way - it gets killed and reappears in the lower planes (or wherever), and thinks its free... and then 3-5 seconds later the collar also appears and they fall to their knees and scream, "Noooooooooooo!!!"
Cool visual, eh?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2013 15:08:41 |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2013 : 04:57:31
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Haha could become an infernal sitcom...
Still that is a good theory on how this works, like an "interplanar summoning leash" Whenever the summoner requires the fiend he activates the item, akin to pulling the leash and the fiend appears to do their bidding. When killed they return to their own plane but are still bound to the leash, unless of course the item that represents the leash/or fishing rod is destroyed. A lot of power is in the binder's hand then.
Still this also points out another "discrepancy" Nevron could apparently hear their telepathic/psychic sendings and only he could hear them, he could even deliver pain to them through this link...What do you think? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 11:54:39
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Got a few questions.
1)Can any or all planar/outsiders be summoned/called?
2)Must a planar born creature when killed has to be sent to its home plane when killed? (example shadow dragon arrives in Prime, gets killed goes back to Shadowfell?)
3)What about if the planar creature arrives through a portal or rift?
Thanks a lot!More questions may be coming though... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 12:17:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
2)Must a planar born creature when killed has to be sent to its home plane when killed? (example shadow dragon arrives in Prime, gets killed goes back to Shadowfell?)
Interesting question. Perhaps Furlinastis, after braving those plethora of soul-sucking wraiths, had his spirit sent back to the Shadowfell to reform and live again? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 12:22:39
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| I was not thinking in that manner, but like fiends when defeated on the Prime, their entire bodies discorporate and are sent back to their respective plane. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 12:31:48
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Well, Furlinastis was a shadow dragon and he was (I assume) killed by the wraiths that bled out of the Shadowstorm in the Prime, together with Abelar. So... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 12:43:40
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quote:
1)Can any or all planar/outsiders be summoned/called?
2)Must a planar born creature when killed has to be sent to its home plane when killed? (example shadow dragon arrives in Prime, gets killed goes back to Shadowfell?)
3)What about if the planar creature arrives through a portal or rift?
1) Any creature can be summoned/called/bound through magic, especially if its True Name is known. Primes tend to be more firmly "anchored" to their Prime Material Planes, and more powerful planars/outsiders tend to be "anchored" to their particular outer planes. But the vast majority of planars are comparatively easy to summon and banish through planar barriers.
2) It's generally always easier to send planars back to their planes of origin than anywhere else, but usually still not difficult to send them to the astral or ethereal planes, slightly more difficult to send them to "neighbouring" planes which have partial affinity.
In AD&D(1E), Fiends on the Prime Material usually held their souls within special amulets which functioned something akin to a lich's phylactery; a fiend could be controlled, banished, even destroyed through its amulet, or the amulet could continue to link the fiend to the Prime after its "death" so it might somehow return without being "banished" for decades or centuries.
3) The method by which the planar arrives at any other plane (including the Prime) is of little consequence, unless it somehow imposes additional limitations (the astral spell spell is one of these limited methods, but only clueless Primes ever use it, all planars are instinctively attuned to thin places between the planar boundaries). The only thing which matters is the nature of the planar, which is invariably the same as the nature of his "native" plane. This rule also applies to Primes who find themselves on the planes; a native of the Realms caught on the Outlands is subject to summoning and banishing methods by the planar locals. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 05:14:13
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Ayrik, to your answers:
1)Would that mean creatures like abyssal, howling dragons etc most likely any creature not native to the Prime is summmonable?
Can they also be summoned or called while the summoner in question is on the planes? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 05:36:34
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Yes, creatures of that sort could be summoned. But the summoner should have some specific knowledge of the creature he's trying to summon, or at least some detailed knowledge of its native plane ... just flinging random gates out across the planes "to get something useful" is *not* a good idea.
And yes, summoning magics can be used to bring creatures to nearly any plane. But the rules and properties of magic are different on many planes (even on many Primes) so variants or embellishments to the magic, spells, or rituals might be required and success is never guaranteed. Planescape lore offers various kinds of "spell keys" and "power keys" which might be required components of such castings.
Again, powerful creatures can resist or ignore summons. If they are more powerful than the summoner they can cause problems and make the summoning magics backfire in some fashion. And once they are successfully summoned, physically present in the same room as the summoner, there is the matter of controlling or binding or negotiating (or begging or banishing). Good-aligned planars might sugar coat this arrangement, but in the end it is a simple matter of dominance and submission, one will control the other. Tales of foolish summoners (and their horrible fates) are common bard's fare.
The Twilight War trilogy has an excellent example of a problematic summoning. A Prince of Shade attempted to summon a devil of middling rank. He immediately learned that, due to a surprising shift of "politics" in Hell, this particular devil was now in the service of Mephistopheles. Old Meph responded to the summons personally, defying the summoner and asserting his own commands immediately upon his arrival in Shade.
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[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 10 Jan 2013 05:43:35 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 15:36:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think the only way this could all work and not break any 'rules' (D&D or 'multiverse') is that when any outsider is trapped within an item it is just literally bound to it, not inside it. When 'called forth' they are summoned from their home plane and forced to do whatever the binder (or possessor of the item) wishes.
I was thinking of some sort of 'cage' on their home plane, but maybe its not as simple as that. Maybe the magic merely binds them to their home plane/layer (so that they cannot leave and go to another plane/layer where they may be able to use that domains attributes to break free). Thus, the fiend can wander around the hells or whatever but not enter the domain of a god (or an archfiend, I am thinking), because moving from the home plane/layer proper to the domain of the power would constitute a 'crossing a line' that the spell does not allow.
So those items (and tattoos) maybe work like being under house-arrest. In fact, It might be fun to actually portray the outsider as having some physical adornment that others can see (like a collar). Fiends seeing another fiend with such a thing would probably avoid it, out of fear that it would be next (because the bound fiend could give their names to the binder). So the poor thing would be miserable - if it was an archfiend it probably couldn't even enter its own home (or conversely, be stuck within its abode).
So a fiend learns the hard way - it gets killed and reappears in the lower planes (or wherever), and thinks its free... and then 3-5 seconds later the collar also appears and they fall to their knees and scream, "Noooooooooooo!!!"
Cool visual, eh?
The more I think on this, the more I see one major problem with it. If they're on their home plane, then if they're killed, the item quits functioning. However, I like this idea you've put forth of an item that ties them to their service. Perhaps they're returned to their home plane and then immediately summoned to the "extradimensional space" where they are again trapped. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2013 : 05:33:45
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In Srd the Gate spell does not state in its calling function that when a called creature is killed is it permanently dead? (Death is not so permanent in the Realms much less the planes but any theories or answers are welcomed)
Or like a summoning it returns to its plane of origin?
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2013 : 08:11:39
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| When you call a creature lets say a tanar'ri your gate spell has to be open to the Abyss first right? My friend says you just cast it and then state what you want to call and the creature just comes along... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2013 : 08:38:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
When you call a creature lets say a tanar'ri your gate spell has to be open to the Abyss first right? My friend says you just cast it and then state what you want to call and the creature just comes along...
I think this depends on your GM. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2013 : 14:33:20
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| I've always assumed that when summoning something from another plane, the summoning spell itself is what opens the pathway for the whatever to come thru to the mortal side. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2013 : 15:03:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've always assumed that when summoning something from another plane, the summoning spell itself is what opens the pathway for the whatever to come thru to the mortal side.
I may be misremembering... but I think that was exactly the way Monte Cook described the spell's function in the old Planewalker Handbook. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2013 : 15:04:47
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| To me it seems wiser to cast contact other plane or something first. Call ahead, work out the deal, keep the gates between worlds closed. It's a courtesy to celestial types, it's insurance against fiendish types - the Prime is locked to them so why give them free access to it before agreeing on a price? Safer and smarter, whether you know what's out there or not. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Need to Know: Fiends
