| Author |
 Topic  |
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 02:08:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
So essentially those who want a reboot are those who don't seem to read the novels. So there is no attachment to the story line that has developed over the past 30 years. Does this sound about right?
That's not my stance at all, at least in terms of the novels. I like the post-Spellplague fiction. Probably not as much as I love the classic 90's feel of the Realms fiction, but I do enjoy what capable Realms authors are bringing to the Realms fictional mythos with each and every contribution a 4e post-Spellplague novel brings to the setting. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
 |
|
|
Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 02:11:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
So essentially those who want a reboot are those who don't seem to read the novels. So there is no attachment to the story line that has developed over the past 30 years. Does this sound about right? I mean, I will say this until I am blue in the face. A DM should not need WoTC's blessing to create a campaign straight out of the OGB. It is still there and there is a ton of lore that exists to help you out. Why do you need a full reboot? Is it not enough for WoTC to open up the timeline for developers to right material for the 1350's?
Well, I'm not sure I'd say that. As for myself, I definitely want the reboot and a total departure from 4E. As for books, I was an avid follower of the novels pre-4E. Most of the 4E books haven't hooked me, or interested me. But I really enjoyed about 80% of the pre-4E novels.
|
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 14 Jan 2012 02:13:12 |
|
|
|
Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 02:20:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
I woted yes.,.. but I think no.
It would be best I feel to just fix the damage and not delete by saying: by the way... it has all been a bad dream!!!
That would make people loose even more respect for WotC!!!
What exactly would you fix in order to solve the problem. Seems to me that you would have to fix so much that you might as well go and reboot the Realms to an earlier time. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
|
|
|
froglegg
Learned Scribe
317 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 02:36:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
I love the Realms but I have never been a fan of Elminster (Sorry Ed).
Would I would like to see done is have Elminster wake up after his vision of the Spellplague and Mystra instructing him on how to prevent it but would end up costing him his life.
They don't have the stones to do that!
John |
Long live Alias and Dragonbait! Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb the Realms need you more then ever!
On my word as a sage nothing within these pages is false, but not all of it may prove to be true. - Elminster of Shadowdale
The Old Grey Box gets better with age! |
|
|
|
Patrakis
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 02:55:08
|
Here is my vision of a Forgotten Realms that would fulfill the dream I’ve had since the first revision when we switched to 2nd edition.
Separate gaming materials from the novels.
GAMING MATERIAL
The gaming material should be ret coned to the beginning.
The gaming material should be made and inspired from the past of the realms up to a certain point, a certain year. Describe the world to us as it stands at that point. The point I would choose would not be farther than the year of the prince. The gaming material that could be published would cover:
• Geography;
• History;
• Ecology;
• Sociology;
• Economics;
• Politics;
• Religion, etc.
These would be covered in:
• Local modules;
• Regional modules;
• Kingdom modules;
• World modules;
• Dungeon modules and adventures;
• City modules;
The gaming material should offer a solid description of history and timelines that would inspire DM to develop their own future of their realms or their own version of history.
NOVEL MATERIAL
Leave it as is. No ret coned should be necessary. What is already published would represent the publisher’s view of the future of the realms from the point where the gaming material left of. They can continue to develop it in that timeframe. They can even develop a new series of novels that would flesh out some of the events of the past that were described in the history of the realms but not create new Shattering events for the sake of a new editions.
Novel could also happen in the timeframe of the gaming material or before if they are personal stories and not world shattering. Novel shouldn’t create history in the timeframe of the gaming material.
The fans of the heroes would keep their favorite iconic characters and continue to read about them as if nothing happened. Player’s and DMs would be secure in the knowledge that no exterior influence would mess with the history of the world up to a certain point. They could use the novels to create their future and simply invent their own.
I don’t know if it’s economically feasible, that’s not for me to say. I’m pretty sure it doesn’t represent the opinion of the majority here but for me, it would be the perfect gaming world.
Pat
|
Dancing is like standing still, but faster.
My site: http://www.patoumonde.com |
|
|
|
Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 07:58:23
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
At the end of the day, it will be the consensus they must go with, no matter what any of want individually.
I think I've only seen two others with my exact attitude/preference; Jorkens was one, can't remember the other. Basically, what we want, and what we think is best for the game (and FR) are two separate animals. They cannot afford to disenfranchise the fans they have - they tried that and we got 4e (which has lead us straight here).
If not handled delicately, 5e could blow up in their faces all over again.
Don't get me wrong, I do think what I want is the best for the game. I just don't think the please everyone idea can work without two separate products. If they go purely 4th ed.+ I couldn't care less whether the whole thing folds. My only interest is seeing as much of Eds original realms as possible. |
|
|
|
Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 08:07:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
So essentially those who want a reboot are those who don't seem to read the novels. So there is no attachment to the story line that has developed over the past 30 years. Does this sound about right? I mean, I will say this until I am blue in the face. A DM should not need WoTC's blessing to create a campaign straight out of the OGB. It is still there and there is a ton of lore that exists to help you out. Why do you need a full reboot? Is it not enough for WoTC to open up the timeline for developers to right material for the 1350's?
Had I been a novel reader more than a reactionary rpg'er I would say the same as you.For me its quite simple, I am as curious as you are, but for me its not the developing timeline that is the hobby its what Ed originally did or wanted. As you say, I can do whatever I want with the Realms, but that wont give me any more insight into the original realms than I already have. I might not use the information in my own game, but as a fan of the setting it would be a goldmine. This would upset a lot of fans I know, but this is my personal want and preference which is the only thing I have any reason to give.
If they did reboot and the whole thing became a playground for other designers overwriting Ed then I couldn't care less and I would never buy it. |
|
|
|
Light
Learned Scribe
Australia
231 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 08:16:56
|
| To address the opening topic: yes, a dark and gritty reboot. |
"A true warrior needs no sword" - Thors (Vinland Saga) |
|
|
|
Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 08:28:30
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
So essentially those who want a reboot are those who don't seem to read the novels. So there is no attachment to the story line that has developed over the past 30 years. Does this sound about right? I mean, I will say this until I am blue in the face. A DM should not need WoTC's blessing to create a campaign straight out of the OGB. It is still there and there is a ton of lore that exists to help you out. Why do you need a full reboot? Is it not enough for WoTC to open up the timeline for developers to right material for the 1350's?
Had I been a novel reader more than a reactionary rpg'er I would say the same as you.For me its quite simple, I am as curious as you are, but for me its not the developing timeline that is the hobby its what Ed originally did or wanted. As you say, I can do whatever I want with the Realms, but that wont give me any more insight into the original realms than I already have. I might not use the information in my own game, but as a fan of the setting it would be a goldmine. This would upset a lot of fans I know, but this is my personal want and preference which is the only thing I have any reason to give.
If they did reboot and the whole thing became a playground for other designers overwriting Ed then I couldn't care less and I would never buy it.
And there is the dividing line. There are those who are actually invested in the story that's been told by not only Ed, but many other authors and designers. Then there are those who have been living in the proverbial Realms bunker ever since the Time of Troubles and refuse to come out until Ed WoTC seeds the Realms back to Ed.
Honestly, I don't think it's fair for those who haven't been invested in the good times and bad to ask for a reboot. Those of us who have stuck around and spent good money on all the Realms products WoTC had to offer certainly don't deserve to have everything we know and paid for swept under a rug.
I think it would be more productive for everyone to work together to make sure that the Realms going forward (spellplague and all) best captures the spirit of the OGB and the original novels they put out. Being fractured as a community is only going to confuse WoTC even more and make it harder for them to put out the best product possible. |
|
|
|
idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 08:44:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
And there is the dividing line. There are those who are actually invested in the story that's been told by not only Ed, but many other authors and designers. Then there are those who have been living in the proverbial Realms bunker ever since the Time of Troubles and refuse to come out until Ed WoTC seeds the Realms back to Ed.
Wait, did you just completely ignore The Sage and Therise talking about how they read and enjoyed novels too so that you could make a sweeping generalization about everyone not on your side? Many of us that wouldn't mind or actively want a reboot aren't "living in the proverbial Realms bunker", but have invested in stories throughout the 2e, 3e, and even 4e era. While I haven't been grabbed by most of the 4e era novels I have read a couple, and I read just about every 3e and earlier novel series. I've invested in the stories, been interested in the lore, and I would still be intrigued enough to check out the Realms in 5e if they included a reboot. I would like having the 2e and 3e canon be laid out in the future waiting to happen, even if that meant the Spellplague was as well, if that's what it takes to get WotC producing new stories and lore about earlier Realms eras. |
Edited by - idilippy on 14 Jan 2012 08:45:20 |
|
|
|
see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 08:53:20
|
| Let the novels do whatever the Abyss they want with their stories. Publish all game material for noon, Midsummer Day, 1357 DR. |
|
|
|
Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 08:55:15
|
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
So essentially those who want a reboot are those who don't seem to read the novels. So there is no attachment to the story line that has developed over the past 30 years. Does this sound about right? I mean, I will say this until I am blue in the face. A DM should not need WoTC's blessing to create a campaign straight out of the OGB. It is still there and there is a ton of lore that exists to help you out. Why do you need a full reboot? Is it not enough for WoTC to open up the timeline for developers to right material for the 1350's?
Had I been a novel reader more than a reactionary rpg'er I would say the same as you.For me its quite simple, I am as curious as you are, but for me its not the developing timeline that is the hobby its what Ed originally did or wanted. As you say, I can do whatever I want with the Realms, but that wont give me any more insight into the original realms than I already have. I might not use the information in my own game, but as a fan of the setting it would be a goldmine. This would upset a lot of fans I know, but this is my personal want and preference which is the only thing I have any reason to give.
If they did reboot and the whole thing became a playground for other designers overwriting Ed then I couldn't care less and I would never buy it.
And there is the dividing line. There are those who are actually invested in the story that's been told by not only Ed, but many other authors and designers. Then there are those who have been living in the proverbial Realms bunker ever since the Time of Troubles and refuse to come out until Ed WoTC seeds the Realms back to Ed.
Honestly, I don't think it's fair for those who haven't been invested in the good times and bad to ask for a reboot. Those of us who have stuck around and spent good money on all the Realms products WoTC had to offer certainly don't deserve to have everything we know and paid for swept under a rug.
I think it would be more productive for everyone to work together to make sure that the Realms going forward (spellplague and all) best captures the spirit of the OGB and the original novels they put out. Being fractured as a community is only going to confuse WoTC even more and make it harder for them to put out the best product possible.
I agree that it isn't fair to them at all(hence my two book preference), but it is fair to me. Their ideal Realms is not fair to me either by the same logic. If I had liked WotC Realms products I would say the same thing as you, but as I can only speak for myself i will take an extremely reactionary view which I know will be a bad idea for a lot of others.
As for going forward and modifying; this might be a good idea and it might be fun for a lot of people, but it will never bring me back as a customer.
I have full respect for your opinion on this subject and can clearly see where you are coming from, but the unfortunate truth is that we want very different things from FR and although both points are as valid we will never be happy with the same development. |
|
|
|
Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 09:08:08
|
People need to be careful in what they wish for. WotC could reboot the Realms and add all of the 5E stuff(Races, classes, feats, spells, ectera) to it. So you could get A NEW OGB AND A BUNCH OF OTHER STUFF WITH IT. Think long and hard about that. People say look at Dark Sun, yeah WotC added a bunch of 4E stuff to it with it's reboot for 4E.
IMO the reboot talk is an underhanded swipe/jab at 4E.
My two coppers... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
|
|
|
Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 13:06:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
People need to be careful in what they wish for. WotC could reboot the Realms and add all of the 5E stuff(Races, classes, feats, spells, ectera) to it. So you could get A NEW OGB AND A BUNCH OF OTHER STUFF WITH IT. Think long and hard about that. People say look at Dark Sun, yeah WotC added a bunch of 4E stuff to it with it's reboot for 4E.
IMO the reboot talk is an underhanded swipe/jab at 4E.
My two coppers...
Exactly Brimstone. It's Pandora's Box. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 13:22:12
|
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
So essentially those who want a reboot are those who don't seem to read the novels. So there is no attachment to the story line that has developed over the past 30 years.
Perhaps. But I can't speak for others. I don't want a reboot for two reasons. One, I like some changes in the current edition. And, whatever it is in the previous three editions that are crucial to the setting and most favored by fans can be integrated in the present timeline. For instance, one doesn't have to go back to the 3rd edition to see Halruaa again. A 4E novel can simply tell a story during Halruaa's glory days, the events that led to its destruction, who survived it, where those survivors are now, and what they have been doing in relation to the story's two part narration. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 13:22:57
|
While I vehemently disagree with a "reboot", I did hear that Dark Sun was one of the most popular and successful settings produced by 4E and had brought in a TON of elements that made people want to play in that setting than in previous incarnations. I think that the relatively low lore and overall underestimated setting of Dark Sun revitalized it with the new Edition and revitalized it overall. The same cannot be said of the Forgotten Realms, however.
I don't want to see anyone's work invalidated just because people don't like certain aspects of the Realms that have been there for over 10 years. IMO, a reboot isn't necessary in the least but I do wish they still produced novels set in the pre-spellplague times and finish out many of our beloved heroes and villians stories. |
|
|
|
Tasker Daze
Seeker
84 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 14:36:24
|
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I don't want to see anyone's work invalidated just because people don't like certain aspects of the Realms that have been there for over 10 years.
Like Ao?
The designers of 4E already invalidated the owrk of others. |
. |
|
|
|
Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 15:04:09
|
| Mmmmm.... tricky, ofc for most of the players, or at least a great amount of them the answer would be a yes please, but I think that too many things have been already done for a reboot, or a "Dallas" moment, when everything was just a dream of a deranged Volo, like some scribe said a time ago. So I'd go for the No for a reboot, but Yes to a "redesign". |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
|
|
|
Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 15:52:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by Tasker Daze
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I don't want to see anyone's work invalidated just because people don't like certain aspects of the Realms that have been there for over 10 years.
Like Ao?
The designers of 4E already invalidated the owrk of others.
Ao played THAT big of an aspect in your Realms campaigns? But in all honestly, I fully believed he was still there (in 4E) doing what he usually did....nothing. So where did it say he was gone? |
|
|
|
Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 16:12:02
|
quote:
Is it not enough for WoTC to open up the timeline for developers to right material for the 1350's?
Are they really going to do that? Because I doubt that. It would require five times more work. Remember, there's the 1350's (OGB era), 1360's (AD&D era), 1370's (3e era) and 1485 (4e era), and as yet unknown Next D&D era... |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
|
|
|
Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 17:24:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
quote:
Is it not enough for WoTC to open up the timeline for developers to right material for the 1350's?
Are they really going to do that? Because I doubt that. It would require five times more work. Remember, there's the 1350's (OGB era), 1360's (AD&D era), 1370's (3e era) and 1485 (4e era), and as yet unknown Next D&D era...
I doubt it would take 5 times as much work, honestly. If we are talking setting and lore material and not game material (as in, having to make a 1E book and a 2E book, and so on using those rules), then it wouldn't need to seriously increase the work. From the 1350s to the 1380s there are some places that don't change a whole lot and we already have a written record of a lot of the changes that did happen. Instead of something like a Cormyr book for each of those periods I see it more likely to be a Cormyr: past and present type set up where the history of Cormyr is covered with sections detailing the major moments in history (which likely line up with the different eras) and explaining what you need to know to use any particular section of it's history as your setting. For novels, they could be set at any point in time. There it would likely be a case of part of the roughly 12 a year we are getting now would be dedicated to the past. In a perfect world they would just increase the number of novels coming out, but I think that will happen only if sales increase. Though I could be wrong and maybe having more than the one era to cover will allow them to justify more novels.
|
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
|
|
|
Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 18:13:42
|
Like Nicolai, I voted Yes, but my expectations are firmly grounded in No. Unless Sire Greenwood returns to give us his vision of How The Realms Were Won, it would be too problematic, anyways.
I am going to assume, for my sanity's sake, that we are referring only to 4th Edition Forgotten Realms, and not the 4th Edition D&D system mechanics. Discussing the latter in this context seems to me to be irrelevant.
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
I think it would be more productive for everyone to work together to make sure that the Realms going forward (spellplague and all) best captures the spirit of the OGB and the original novels they put out. Being fractured as a community is only going to confuse WoTC even more and make it harder for them to put out the best product possible.
This is what I have been saying by 'fix'. Marshall Plan-fix. We won't get a reboot (face it - we just won't), so we need a huge salvage operation, and then roll up our sleeves and get to work. Or rather, Wizbro does - anything that can be cleaned up, cleared away, graded over, replanted, and nurtured, needs to be. Wizbro made such an awful mess, it's on them to clean it up. But we can help. We, as lovers of the Realms and all the rich, wonderful lore and history that went with it before 2008, those things that defined the Forgotten Realms, pretty much have an obligation to do exactly that.
What exactly are those things? That'll differ from person to person, certainly. I know that while I am willing to grit my teeth and accept what happened in the Old Empires (plus I do rather like High Imaskar), others may absolutely despise it. What happened to Halruaa and Lantan made me snarl in fury when I first read it - but others may not care a whit about those places. It all depends on who you ask and what the Realms means to them.
That's the trade-off for going forward, in my opinion. We want the Realms as we remember it. And even going forward, that's possible, believe it or not. Sans Ed Greenwood, it's the best outcome we can realistically expect. |
|
|
|
Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 18:25:33
|
I totally agree with OMH about going forward. I guess the best part is that WotC is more focued on hearing what we, the fanbase, want to see and hear with the next iteration of D&D. This means more requests, more submissions of Fan-base material, and more vocal support of what they're doing. I'm looking to write up an article for DDi that depicts that Lantan survived the Spellplague by a combination of magi-technology that kept the waters away from the small island yet found it submerged deep below the surface. So I'm looking for any older lore on the island, the people, the ruling classes, the deities (besides Gond) that might have been represented, and how technologically along they were. Then I'll delve into the Bio-Shock video game to pull elements from there as well, like electricity-based utilies and weapons and an influx of ideas from underwater civilizations. I like the idea of many people using Shark-skin as armor or wetsuits, drawing forth the energy of electric eels, or using the substances from Kelp, sea-weed, algie, coral, etc. into everyday aspects of their life.
Not sure when it'll be completed or how long it'll be (or even if they'd accept it) but at least I can say that I attempted to influence the Realms for the better. Lantan may be considerd gone by many people but the island is alive and well and functions as a sort of FR-Atlantis. |
Edited by - Diffan on 14 Jan 2012 18:28:22 |
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 18:26:12
|
| Old Man, based on the slight information this recent talk is based on -- 'The Forgotten Realms has a rich history and we will support all of it. It is for the gamers to decide which time they would enjoy playing in' -- I think you're being unduly pessimistic assuming they'll move the timeline forward yet again, distancing it even further from the people and events of the 14th-century Realms. |
|
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 18:35:36
|
Any year is fine imo, I don't care for canon. What matters is that they publish Realms material in quantity similar to Golarion's. If it's going to be just one book like in 4e, or reprinted old lore, then I'm not interested.
Also it depends on who's going to work on the new Realms, if it's going to be the same designers again, I don't expect anything good. Same old crap, aberrations, drow, Elminster, elves, gods, liches, dragons etc. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 18:38:10
|
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
So essentially those who want a reboot are those who don't seem to read the novels. So there is no attachment to the story line that has developed over the past 30 years. Does this sound about right? I mean, I will say this until I am blue in the face. A DM should not need WoTC's blessing to create a campaign straight out of the OGB. It is still there and there is a ton of lore that exists to help you out. Why do you need a full reboot? Is it not enough for WoTC to open up the timeline for developers to right material for the 1350's?
I read the novels - I try to read all of them. I've twice 'sworn off' certain novels out of anger, and then re-thought my decision (in regards to 4e-era books, and the RotA series). Just because I am not fond of something doesn't mean I should ignore it. As a RW history buff, I don't ignore parts of RW history I don't care for - that would be ludicrous. Why should I then do that in a fantasy setting I love so much?
I also game - have been since the mid-70's, and only stopped just prior to 4e's release (NOT because of 4e, but because of a divorce and relocation). Not sure if circumstances had been different, I might have continued to play using the new rules (I have no way of knowing). I do know I wouldn't have used the 4e setting (but I would have borrowed from it, and perhaps even fast-forwarded my campaign to 1386, because I find that precise year the most liberating, canon-wise).
I would love a complete reboot, because I think the original product - before a lot of early badness got slapped onto it (redundancy, derivativeness, RW names, the wrongful idea people only worship one god, Netheril's F*ed up history and ridiculous place names, Lichlings, Gods acting like idiots, etc) - was truly excellent; a monument to Ed's genius.
HOWEVER, I do not believe this would be best for the game and most fans. The setting should be moving forward, not backward. Its just that 1479 DR was really jumping the shark. The proper way to correct THAT, and get things back on course, would be to move the setting forward from the year after the Spellplague, because that would have been a normal amount of time between editions. I personaly believe most folks would have eventualy dealt with everything else - the changes, the new rules, etc - the way they always have; kicking and screaming... but they would have come around. just look through all the old threads on this site and others when editions changed before. Of course people will always complain - thats what we do (and what the internet is for... right after porn  )
But we would have come around, because we have before. There is a big difference between me not liking the Shades and not ever using them IMG, and me refusing to buy 4e products. That complete 'disconnect' is what must be mended. I feel a total reboot is just a patch-job, at best, and will disenfranchise more folks then it will bring back, IMHO.
Which is hard for me to say, because I would love just such a thing.
EDIT: And I almost forgot - even though I read most of the novels and am a stickler for continuity (in those and source), my own realms were VERY homebrew - I moved around entire countries! (which is what got me into mapping).
So YES, there are those of us who care about the continuity/canon, and still don't worry about it when we game. Maybe I am in the rare minority, but I don't understand why anyone would connect the two - No-one runs a canon game (not even Ed Greenwood anymore). The second your players start interacting with anything, it is no longer technically canon, so why nitpick? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 14 Jan 2012 18:53:07 |
|
|
|
Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 18:48:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
...I would love a complete reboot, because I think the original product...
OHHHH SNAP!
Praise Lathander, he has seen the Light! Welcome back to the Church, brother Markus!
We'll get the rest of that "what's best for (people I've never met)" smacked out of you in no time.
*starts singing a hymn, holding hands up to the sun*
|
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
|
|
|
Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 18:59:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Not sure when it'll be completed or how long it'll be (or even if they'd accept it) but at least I can say that I attempted to influence the Realms for the better. Lantan may be considerd gone by many people but the island is alive and well and functions as a sort of FR-Atlantis.
THIS is the sort of thing I'm talking about. THIS is what we need to see more of (a LOT more of). THIS is one of the steps on the roadway to fixing what was broken. They'd already taken the baby steps of cleaning up the Sword Coast (where very little had changed, really) - now comes the rest. Articles like Diffan's would be a tremendous shot in the arm that the Realms desperately needs.
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Old Man, based on the slight information this recent talk is based on -- 'The Forgotten Realms has a rich history and we will support all of it. It is for the gamers to decide which time they would enjoy playing in' -- I think you're being unduly pessimistic assuming they'll move the timeline forward yet again, distancing it even further from the people and events of the 14th-century Realms.
I won't deny being pessimistic. I think it's justified, to be frank about it. I would say 'realistic', though.
*The optimist says the glass is half-full.
*The pessimist says the glass is half-empty.
*The realist says someone couldn't make it to the porcelain stall in time. 
Diffan's post gives us but one way things can be fixed. In fact, it's one of the better ways. Plus, I am very, very leery about a press release that says 'we will support all of it'. Well, what exactly constitutes 'all of it'? That has been left very, very undefined.
And one thing that does need a reboot, is the map. The one that came with 4th Edition, regardless of what anyone thinks about anything else in the book, was utter -CENSORED-.
And the entire planet needs to be mapped. All of it. At the very least, outlines of the continents. Where things are. Where Returned Abeir sits in relation to Anchorome, for example, and how much of Maztica is left. Is Returned Abeir sitting right where, say, Panama would be in our world, and maybe some of Maztica roughly equivalent to the latitudes of northern Mexico and the Yucatan still exist? We should have these answers, maybe with a module detailing any Maztican civilization that may have happened to survive, along with some details of Anchorome and the quasi-Iroquois civilization that we were led to believe existed there, if only from a faded image on a previous edition's map.
- OMH |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 19:09:38
|
Lets get one thing straight, missy ( )
The people who clamored "Change the Realms so that we like it, and screw all the fans of the hard-to-read canon material" are no friends of mine, and I really don't think they were ever friends of 'The Realms' (not now, not ever). They just didn't like something, wanted it changed (rather then go look for something they liked better, as a normal person would), and didn't care who's bubble they were bursting.
And YES, those are the people I am currently defending. I don't have to like someone to defend their opinions, just as I won't defend the opinions of someone I like, if I feel they are misguided (not aimed at you, so please don't take offense - it is just a general statement).
If they do do a reboot, at the very least, they should NOT do a "it was all just a dream' type of scenario, because that will still be pissing-off everyone who is a fan of everything that came after the 'official' 5e setting date. For instance, resetting it to the OGB might anger people who liked the ToT (there are a few), and resetting to just after the ToT (2e) would anger all the folks who loved the 3e lore (most of it, anyway). Rebooting to a 'clean slate' would be entirely the wrong way to go, because it actually destroys so much more then 4e ever did.
UNLESS.. they somehow manage to reboot, keep most of the forward-going canon (a neat trick, that), and provide support for multiple-era gaming... I'm just not seeing it. Not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying that would be one helluva 'hat trick'. I say 'most', because even in a 'lets keep the setting canon intact' kind of reboot (not changing the continuity), there are some things that must be ditched (there was Tuigan Warlord, for instance, that was somehow making trouble down around Erkazar in some module - it made no sense). Simply re-write that so the incident was actually caused by a tribe of Horse Barbarians (The Arnaden Lions), who happen to be very similar and also LOCAL to the event. There was also another instance where a tribe was created for a short story in Vassa - just changed that to an already-existing canon one (or make it a splinter-group). Lots of rough edges - its like a bad makeup job. Smooth things better, and make the Realms pretty again.
In other words, blend the rough edges better. This is something I think Ed, Krash, Brian, Steven, Shemmy, Gray (and others here) can do, either officially, or as go-to consultants. Whoever gets that job - blending the old lore together better - should also go on to become the new FR traffic cop. No-one knows everything, but there are some pretty smart folks here that would be willing to help (maybe create a new private forum, for ideas to be hashed-out and continuity problems solved, like Marvel's 'No prize') |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 15 Jan 2012 00:20:58 |
|
|
|
Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2012 : 19:26:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
So essentially those who want a reboot are those who don't seem to read the novels. So there is no attachment to the story line that has developed over the past 30 years. Does this sound about right? I mean, I will say this until I am blue in the face. A DM should not need WoTC's blessing to create a campaign straight out of the OGB. It is still there and there is a ton of lore that exists to help you out. Why do you need a full reboot? Is it not enough for WoTC to open up the timeline for developers to right material for the 1350's?
I read the novels - I try to read all of them. I've twice 'sworn off' certain novels out of anger, and then re-thought my decision (in regards to 4e-era books, and the RotA series). Just because I am not fond of something doesn't mean I should ignore it. As a RW history buff, I don't ignore parts of RW history I don't care for - that would be ludicrous. Why should I then do that in a fantasy setting I love so much?
I also game - have been since the mid-70's, and only stopped just prior to 4e's release (NOT because of 4e, but because of a divorce and relocation). Not sure if circumstances had been different, I might have continued to play using the new rules (I have no way of knowing). I do know I wouldn't have used the 4e setting (but I would have borrowed from it, and perhaps even fast-forwarded my campaign to 1386, because I find that precise year the most liberating, canon-wise).
I would love a complete reboot, because I think the original product - before a lot of early badness got slapped onto it (redundancy, derivativeness, RW names, the wrongful idea people only worship one god, Netheril's F*ed up history and ridiculous place names, Lichlings, Gods acting like idiots, etc) - was truly excellent; a monument to Ed's genius.
HOWEVER, I do not believe this would be best for the game and most fans. The setting should be moving forward, not backward. Its just that 1479 DR was really jumping the shark. The proper way to correct THAT, and get things back on course, would be to move the setting forward from the year after the Spellplague, because that would have been a normal amount of time between editions. I personaly believe most folks would have eventualy dealt with everything else - the changes, the new rules, etc - the way they always have; kicking and screaming... but they would have come around. just look through all the old threads on this site and others when editions changed before. Of course people will always complain - thats what we do (and what the internet is for... right after porn )
But we would have come around, because we have before. There is a big difference between me not liking the Shades and not ever using them IMG, and me refusing to buy 4e products. That complete 'disconnect' is what must be mended. I feel a total reboot is just a patch-job, at best, and will disenfranchise more folks then it will bring back, IMHO.
Which is hard for me to say, because I would love just such a thing.
EDIT: And I almost forgot - even though I read most of the novels and am a stickler for continuity (in those and source), my own realms were VERY homebrew - I moved around entire countries! (which is what got me into mapping).
So YES, there are those of us who care about the continuity/canon, and still don't worry about it when we game. Maybe I am in the rare minority, but I don't understand why anyone would connect the two - No-one runs a canon game (not even Ed Greenwood anymore). The second your players start interacting with anything, it is no longer technically canon, so why nitpick?
If I'm being honest, there is a big part of me that wants to go back to 1381 and just move on from there. I miss some of the old characters of the 1300's and it's a little much to see the authors try to find ways to bring them back 100 years later.
But, and it's a big but, there is an even bigger part of me that just wants to move forward with the good and the bad. I'm sorry if I start sounding too philosophical, but there is something natural about rolling along with all the nicks and scrapes and striving to make it better. As long as something was learned in the process and the end result is better than before, then all the bad that came before suddenly becomes just a step in the evolution of the Realms. I guess to me rebooting is kind of like cheating. It will never feel right because we can't remove from our memories what was thrown away. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Reboot of the Realms for 5th edition.
