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BadLuckBugbear
Seeker
USA
92 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Oct 2019 : 23:03:28
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In Down to Earth Divinity, Greenwood lays out the basic Faerunian pantheon in some detail.
He uses Deities and Demigods as a reference work but most of the gods are his own creations (Helm, Lathander, Eldath, etc--all the core gods are already present in this article, although there were some tweaks for later publication).
The Cults of the Beast show up in later FR stuff, but I think this article must be their very first appearance in print.
The mods will correct me if it is improper to share a brief excerpt from a table in the article:
ASLAN Lord Firemane Lord of Lions, Strong Beasts LG Lesser God
BESPARR --- Lord of Horses CG Demigod
CAMAZOTZ --- Lord of Bats CE Lesser God
FILEET --- Lady of the Birds CN Demigoddess
HAAASHASTAAK--- Master of All Lizardkind N Demigod
HLYYAAK --- King of Camels CG Demigod
LOLTH --- Demon Queen of Spiders CE Lesser Goddess
LURUE Silverymoon Queen of Talking Beasts, CG Lesser Goddess
Intelligent Creatures
MEERCLAR --- Mistress of Catkind CN Demigoddess
NNUUURRRR’C’C King With Wings Master of the Insect Swarm N Demigod
NURU-AH --- Master of Cattle N Demigod
PYARAY Whisperer of Lord of the Ocean Abysses, CE Lesser God
Impossible Secrets Creatures of the Deep
REPRA --- King of Serpents CE Demigod
ROOFDRAK --- Master of All Dogs N Demigod
SNEEL The Great Ra
Greenwood notes that Repra is the Egyptian power, Apep, renamed. Sneel is the Rat God from the Nehwon Mythos. Camazotz is obviously Camazotz from the Central American Mythos.
Lolth is definitely not just a drow goddess, and indeed in the article the drow are described as a legendary and largely unknown race.
Aslan was later renamed Nobanion for obvious reasons. Lurue is a Greenwood original.
Besparr and Hlyyaak are also Greenwood creations.
Sneel is Fritz's Leiber's Rat God as detailed in the Nehwon Mythos chapter.
The rest are from Moorcock and the Menibonean Mythos section of Deities and Demigods.
So, which ones of these Cults of the Beast feature in later Realms materials?
I know Nobanion and Lurue do.
Lolth does, but as a Beast god served by non-drow?
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Ewan Cummins |
Edited by - BadLuckBugbear on 09 Oct 2019 23:06:00
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11692 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2019 : 00:20:25
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I don't think any of them saw any further use (not even Camazotz, though Seethyr is using him over in Maztica, and I plan to have a cult related to him in Katashaka with bainligor rat folk). For Lolth, she has different "spider" beings that worship her. I've adapted Besparr to the Metahel Pantheon that I created as being very much like Sleipnir of norse myth, but seen as a caribou.
A lot of the others are actually under copyright, because they are either Nehwon or Melnibonean. For instance, you'll see a lot of those names related at the below URL
http://www.mjyoung.net/dungeon/char/deity031.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deities_in_the_Elric_series
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2019 : 00:32:15
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| I think where you see some of these beast lords that aren’t updated or from another copyright, you have some excellent Animal Lord names or hitherto unknown primordials. In that article, there weee also some elemental lords from what I remember that never got an update either. Those could definitely be primordials - rivals slain by Grumbar, Kossuth and friends. |
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BadLuckBugbear
Seeker
USA
92 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2019 : 01:50:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
I think where you see some of these beast lords that aren’t updated or from another copyright, you have some excellent Animal Lord names or hitherto unknown primordials. In that article, there weee also some elemental lords from what I remember that never got an update either. Those could definitely be primordials - rivals slain by Grumbar, Kossuth and friends.
The four elemental lords from the article are straight out of Moorcock's Elric stories, and seem to me to have been replaced by Grumbar, Akadi, etc.
Rivals would be cool. Or aspects/other names.
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Ewan Cummins |
Edited by - BadLuckBugbear on 10 Oct 2019 01:51:15 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2019 : 03:37:01
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"Beast Cults" were only roughly described as demipowers in 2E FRA, although none were named (aside from a roundabout mention of Lurue). And they included fantastic beasts - a Dragon Beast Cult was a specific example (not at all like the Cult of the Dragon) - so I suppose cults dedicated to beasts like griffons, gorgons, basilisks, manticores, and chimeras could all be possible.
Beast Lords in Planescape were not proper demipowers, some were more powerful (within their domain, anyhow), most were less powerful. And I think they were only given generic names/titles (Wolf Lord, Cat Lord, Raven Lord, etc).
My players often commented that demipowers (only capable of granting lower than 5th level priest spells) don't attract priests with high Wisdom scores, lol. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2019 : 04:38:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
...they were only given generic names/titles (Wolf Lord, Cat Lord, Raven Lord, etc).
I think at some point we were told they did have names. I forget which products specifically but the Cat Lord definitely had one in Something Wild. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2019 : 04:41:24
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| Lizard dude is probably Semuanya. |
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BadLuckBugbear
Seeker
USA
92 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2019 : 13:22:05
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Lizard dude is probably Semuanya.
Haaashastaak?
He and Semuanya both appear in (separate sections of) DD&G.
He's from the Eternal Champion stories.
But the two gods could be collapsed together, 4E -style,sure. It makes sense. |
Ewan Cummins |
Edited by - BadLuckBugbear on 10 Oct 2019 13:28:57 |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6645 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2019 : 14:21:58
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He was named Reflexis in the GH novels.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2019 : 14:26:36
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
He was named Reflexis in the GH novels.
-- George Krashos
Thanks for that, I had "Rexfel" in my brain, but I wasn't sure that was right.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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BadLuckBugbear
Seeker
USA
92 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2019 : 14:38:34
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Anagram for rex felis, no doubt. Gygax loved that kind of thing.
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Ewan Cummins |
Edited by - BadLuckBugbear on 10 Oct 2019 14:38:53 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11692 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2019 : 23:40:23
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| What I find interesting if you think about it is that he has so many Melnibonean deities and then if we look at the defenses of Evermeet, it very much resembles the ideas of the defenses of Melnibone. I wonder how much of an Elric fan was Ed. I've personally never read too much of Moorcock's works (his later stuff may have gotten a lot better), and I've always felt a little bad for that. I've felt the same about Fritz Leiber's Nehwon works, because when I compare them against more modern stuff I find them a bit harder to put myself through. Yet I know I can thank both of them for bringing about this genre (along with R.E. Howard's Conan). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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BadLuckBugbear
Seeker
USA
92 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2019 : 01:42:31
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
What I find interesting if you think about it is that he has so many Melnibonean deities and then if we look at the defenses of Evermeet, it very much resembles the ideas of the defenses of Melnibone. I wonder how much of an Elric fan was Ed. I've personally never read too much of Moorcock's works (his later stuff may have gotten a lot better), and I've always felt a little bad for that. I've felt the same about Fritz Leiber's Nehwon works, because when I compare them against more modern stuff I find them a bit harder to put myself through. Yet I know I can thank both of them for bringing about this genre (along with R.E. Howard's Conan).
It might just be that Greenwood liked the Melnibonean Mythos section from DD&G.
I wouldn't be surprised if he had read the Elric stories before 1981, though.
And I imagine he had read some of Leiber's Fafhrd and Gray Mouser stories before D&D was published. He's a fan of those stories, isn't he?
For my own part, I rank Leiber (at least his Nehwon stuff--he wrote tubs of other material I've never read) and Howard high on my list.
Moorcock? I liked his Elric stories but I could never get into anything else he'd written. Not that I have read much of the rest of his work.
I have not really read all that much genre fantasy published after 1980 or so. |
Ewan Cummins |
Edited by - BadLuckBugbear on 11 Oct 2019 01:48:58 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2019 : 12:55:29
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
(...)
if we look at the defenses of Evermeet, it very much resembles the ideas of the defenses of Melnibone. I wonder how much of an Elric fan was Ed.
(...)
I've seen Evermeet defenses detailed only in Elves of Evermeet, by Anne Gray McCready. I don't know how much she drank from original ideas from Ed, though.  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11692 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2019 : 13:43:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
(...)
if we look at the defenses of Evermeet, it very much resembles the ideas of the defenses of Melnibone. I wonder how much of an Elric fan was Ed.
(...)
I've seen Evermeet defenses detailed only in Elves of Evermeet, by Anne Gray McCready. I don't know how much she drank from original ideas from Ed, though.
Yeah, I do make an assumption here that Ed was in the background of that. I could very much be in the wrong. But it would seem to me to be a product that he'd want his hands in. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2019 : 23:17:45
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
Cat Lord makes an appearance in Gary Gygax's Greyhawk novels. I don't remember if he had a name in those books.
In the Realms, he made an appearance in the comics. The wiki has a good summary.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Cat_lord
He also disappeared and was replaced by a female Cat Lord who is friendly to Ferrix the weretiger deity, and has a strong dislike for Bast, per Planes of Conflict.
My personal opinion is that he gained true godhood and thus was replaced. I think the animal lords have a slight tendency to achieve true godhood, which is one of the ways they get replaced. Part of it would have stemmed from him having an actual personal name, IMO.
In fact, I would say most "beast cults" in various worlds worship the various animal lords rather than actual deities, thus limiting them to 2nd level spells from faith alone (according to 1e and 2e rules at least). Then, if they become actual deities, they start organizing their faith into something other than a "beast cult," gain other attributes, begin to shed their animal past, etc. And then a new animal lord forms and eventually a new beast cult springs up when the original one has become a true clergy.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2019 : 00:11:23
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I’ve always kind of wondered who “gets a lord.” I mean, do we go by real world animal classification? And if so, is it each species? Genus? I guess it doesn’t matter, but after this summer I’m about to go find the yellow jacket wasp lord and kill it myself.
Is there a ladybug lord? Blue jay lord? Hamster lord named Wooly? |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11692 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2019 : 00:28:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
I’ve always kind of wondered who “gets a lord.” I mean, do we go by real world animal classification? And if so, is it each species? Genus? I guess it doesn’t matter, but after this summer I’m about to go find the yellow jacket wasp lord and kill it myself.
Is there a ladybug lord? Blue jay lord? Hamster lord named Wooly?
No offense to Wooly, but the Hamster lord is most undoubtedly Boo. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2019 : 02:13:48
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| Then The Flying Spaghetti Monster must remain a beast cult, for He (and His Noodly Appendages) are unnamed and unable to attain true godhood. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2019 : 12:16:34
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
(...)
In fact, I would say most "beast cults" in various worlds worship the various animal lords rather than actual deities,
(...)
Jeff
It's a good theory. As for others, I've seen mentions to monstrous beast cults (like a beholder's and some linked to dragons), and even the worship of magic items or a singing skull. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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BadLuckBugbear
Seeker
USA
92 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2019 : 16:11:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Then The Flying Spaghetti Monster must remain a beast cult, for He (and His Noodly Appendages) are unnamed and unable to attain true godhood.
Flumph beast cult! |
Ewan Cummins |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2019 : 16:11:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Then The Flying Spaghetti Monster must remain a beast cult, for He (and His Noodly Appendages) are unnamed and unable to attain true godhood.
His worship is strong among the pirates of the Realms, but they are a disorganized bunch, and He's been on the edge of becoming a demipower for more than a century now. |
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Sneel and others powers of the Cults of the Beast
