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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 08:21:18
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(For this thread I am assuming there are the original alignments tanari'i, baatezu and Yuguloths)
I've always thought of Erinyes being counterparts to Succubus, although more military vengeance minded, and less overtly sexual. But i've come to feel they should not really be seen as sexual beings at all looking at greek mythology.
For my own enjoyment I was creating an alternative Malbolge with Lilith taking over from the Hag countess rather than Glasya. In my imagination I made the fleshy realm built on the hag countess' body a realm of lust but as I delved into the details I started to think lust and desire are not lawful in nature. It sounded like a layer of the Abyss rather than a layer of Hell.
Is there room for Lawful Evil corruption through desire and lust, or should that be left entirely to succubi/incubi/lilitu? In my mind it seems as though lust and desire are chaotic in nature and so perhaps devils should not be involved in it at all.
What do you all think? Is there room for devils to corrupt from lust and desire?
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 08:32:28
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| I see lust and desire more as a chaotic forces, as it is love, than legals to be honest, as they can make you change your ideals or drives. Though under certain circustances I gues they could be somehow tied to legalllity, I think it would have more to do with the reasons of such emotions than to the emotions itselves. |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 10:14:53
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| There is no problem because with Erinyes, they are obviously not sexual beings but vengeance takers, and can be ignored in this discussion. Instead imagine a new type of devil of some sort? I am thinking of how Lilith is described as a consort of Baalzebul, and she is described as a sexual being. Maybe "Sons and Daughters of Lilith"? Who mirror succubi but in a less wild and chaotic way. |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 10:18:22
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Fiendish Codex II has a Pleasure Devil Brachnia.
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z455t |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 11:59:22
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Lust and desire can freely be used by devils. It has nothing to do with alignment. The only difference is that a succubus enjoys it, but for a devil it's just a tool.
I wouldn't say that Erinyes aren't sexual beings. Yes, maybe they're primarily vengeance takers (although I wouldn't mix the myths with D&D fluff, they're just inspired by myths), but they're also soldiers, scouts, messangers or even consorts for their superiors. And there's also the Pleasure Devil, like Kno pointed out, that is a greater version of a Erinyes that was exceptional in tempting mortals (just because there are Harvester Devils doesn't mean that they're the only ones allowed to gather souls, any devil with talent or determination can do it and an Erinyes has what is needed). |
Edited by - Imp on 10 Jan 2012 12:01:14 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 14:29:21
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Lust and desire are not necessarily chaotic. For both an enrinyes and succubus, the two corrupt, intense longings are an end; but for the former, it's more of a means to an even more twisted end. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 15:14:29
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Well, with certain expressions of love, there are extremely (ahem) FIRM rules. Particularly when we're talking about domination, S/M, etc.
I think there's plenty of room for the lawful side of Love. I say yes, go for it.
Also, you should totally read Brimstone Angels, by Erin Evans, which addresses this very topic a little. Also, she has a blog post about it . . . ah: http://slushlush.com/2011/10/sexy-devil-women/
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 19:14:51
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
(For this thread I am assuming there are the original alignments tanari'i, baatezu and Yuguloths)
I've always thought of Erinyes being counterparts to Succubus, although more military vengeance minded, and less overtly sexual. But i've come to feel they should not really be seen as sexual beings at all looking at greek mythology.
For my own enjoyment I was creating an alternative Malbolge with Lilith taking over from the Hag countess rather than Glasya. In my imagination I made the fleshy realm built on the hag countess' body a realm of lust but as I delved into the details I started to think lust and desire are not lawful in nature. It sounded like a layer of the Abyss rather than a layer of Hell.
Is there room for Lawful Evil corruption through desire and lust, or should that be left entirely to succubi/incubi/lilitu? In my mind it seems as though lust and desire are chaotic in nature and so perhaps devils should not be involved in it at all.
What do you all think? Is there room for devils to corrupt from lust and desire?
If you're going to spin D&D monsters based on their origins in Greek (or some other) mythology, there's going to be a lot more things to change than just this.
I see no reason why LE types can't use desire and lust for corruption... It's just a means to an end. I think it safe to say many a person would be willing to agree to a shady deal if the payout was ready access to one or more sexual partners -- particularly partners that were very desirable, otherwise unobtainable, or both. The Judgement of Paris is a classic example -- Paris could have been a wise and mighty general, or the king of all Eurasia, or he could have the most attractive woman in the world. So for the small price of tweaking off some goddesses and plunging his nation into war, he chose a beautiful, already-married woman. And things did not end well for Mr. P or his hometown of Troy. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 00:14:30
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Honestly, I'm against Lilith simply because while many of the Devils come from mythology. I think she's a little too publicly known.
In my games, I use Eriynes as contractors and soul-gatherers. Like Succubi, it's their job to gather souls, but they're smarter about it. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 01:34:58
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I like Lilith, but I've been borrowing heavily from the Kabbalah and Gnostic Bible of late. I don't use whatever D&D version there is of her - I do my own version of the heaven and hells.
Furies, Erinyes, Valkyries, Air Maidens (Finnish), Angels, Succubi, etc, etc - all basically the same creature with an alignment template slapped onto it. Every Outer Plane has a variant. They are basically the 'gofers' of the Planer bureaucracy. I would even say tasked genies fall into this category, for the elemental planes. Not so much a race (or races), but rather, manifestations of the plane itself. Almost like a higher variant of a fundamental, or mephit (their larval stages?)
I have Lilith created from the 'baser' portions of Adam - the tailbone (which represents The serpent, according to The Naked Archaeologist) - and so she is a product of Asmodeus. He has corrupted each of God's creations in some way, and Adam's tail (which God removed to create Lilith) represents the corruption that was within Adam. Lilith is that corruption given human form. Like Lolth, she was cursed to assume demonic form, and banished to the hells. Her bite is responsible for the origins of vampirism (a power granted to her by Asmodeus - he gave her his serpent's fangs).
Lately I have also been leaning toward a connection between vampires and fiends (despite my dislike of the Buffy series), but I haven't gotten it all worked out yet. I watched Van Helsing the other night, and for the second time, I missed the explanation of the relationship between Van Helsing and Dracula (but I know it had something to do with the devil, so i will have to watch it again... or Google the plot).
Anyhow, as for the subject: Planned seduction is a VERY lawful thing - it is basically a long and complicated type of entrapment. I think its perfect for female devils. Using feminine wiles to manipulate stupid male mortals? C'mon...its a given. Demonesses, on the other hand, would be more about the actual sex - getting the male addicted to the physical, carnal act, rather then bothering with making them fall in love. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Jan 2012 02:13:38 |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 04:07:57
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I don't see how Lilith is any more publicly known than Asmodeus, Baalzebul (the book and movie Lord of the Flies?), Mammon and so forth.
I was using her based on a description from Dragon Magazine # 75 or 76 that was very brief, and then Dragon Magazine #361 (I think?) which has her 3rd edition statistics and a description of her cult.
I was trying to use the Flesh plane that they associated with Glasya as a place for Lilith, with flesh being a lure, and the whole plane being an embodiment of lust that absorbs those that aren't careful. That a danger of the plane would be being seduced by the plane itself and being absorbed into it. Writhing bodies implanted into the plane here and there reaching out to people trying to seduce to join. Lilith residing in a palace constructed from still living writhing bodies With a spire of torture chambers with willing slaves ruled by her consort and former co consort of Baalzebul Baftis. Lilith taking on different roles to seduce whoever her target is - her portrait in Dragon Magazine made her look like a dominatrix. I don't know how to make this idea more lawful, it seems more like a layer of the Abyss to me. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 07:40:50
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Brimstone Angels sounds really good, especially with the all good reviews it has received on amazon.com
Bookstores I have easy access to seem to only stock R.A. Salvatore books now, though. I may have to dare using my credit card, which I am afraid of doing, on the internet D: ! |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 09:11:39
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| I'd suggest looking at DiceFreaks Gates of Hell. It's a homebrewed description of Hells with heavy fluff changes. In it Lilith is an archdevil instead of Glasya. I don't remember if she was a seductress, but I know for sure that she was something like a goddess for Witches, she hated children and nature. |
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Lady Shadowflame
Learned Scribe
115 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 11:32:42
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Sexy devils sound great. Sexy demons too.
There's something so fascinating about the dark gentleman who waits in the night, offering all kinds of promises... ruin held behind the tempting words, but you are so much smarter than all those fools entrapped before, aren't you? At least, so he'll lead you to believe...
Oh, wait, everyone thus far in this thread is fixated upon girl-sexy. Bah. For those who aren't, there's a book called 'Angel of Ruin' which details just such a creature as an antagonist of the novel.
EDIT: ...Huh, this is post number 69 for me. *gutter-minded snickering* I couldn't have used it on a better topic if I'd tried... |
Save a lizard... Ride a drow.
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Edited by - Lady Shadowflame on 11 Jan 2012 11:34:38 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 13:38:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Shadowflame
Oh, wait, everyone thus far in this thread is fixated upon girl-sexy.
Nope, not all. And I'm not interested in male devils either. But I find them very useful in fiction. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 19:22:55
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I personally don't see a difference - IMG I say all fiends can alter their shapes, ergo an Incubus is just a Succubus posing as a male. You really think fiends would have any concern what-so-ever regarding their 'sexuality'? 
I also am tinkering with Lilith and Hecate being one and the same - haven't worked out any details yet, though. My version of her is more 'unaligned' (true neutral?) She is basically the ultimate narcissist and self-serving, and she is capable of 'good' when it serves her interests to do so. If I do connect her to vamps, I would probably tie her to the Bacchae as well (the ultimate hedonists). Basically, the corrupted form of over-imbiding.
And Bacchus/Dionysius (who does have a Realms-presence) I say are (Vine) aspects of the nature god (Silvanus). IMG, All fiends try to 'bleed off' deific worship by representing corrupted aspects of godly portfolios (its just what fiends do).
A cult is nothing more then a very specific aspect of an already-existing religion taken to an extreme. Its all about corruption.
IMHO, once again. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Jan 2012 20:02:49 |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 19:54:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Shadowflame
EDIT: ...Huh, this is post number 69 for me. *gutter-minded snickering* I couldn't have used it on a better topic if I'd tried...
Coincidence? |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 20:01:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Shadowflame
Oh, wait, everyone thus far in this thread is fixated upon girl-sexy.
Nope, not all. And I'm not interested in male devils either. But I find them very useful in fiction.
Heh. I'm recalling a scene I wrote in "The Greater Treasure," my story in Realms of the Elves, which I had to edit down to get below an R-rating. And I mean, it was about Graz'zt, so duh, of course it was hot. 
And yes, so very, very useful.
Also, on that note . . . NDA.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 23:26:04
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| Ladyshadowflame we already have Belial as male sexy, don't we? There is a male Erinyes described somewhere this thread was not just referring to "female sexy". Also, a woman could be seduced by a female succubus/incubus and a man by a male incubi/erinyes, could they not? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 23:32:25
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In fact....
Think of how much fun a devil would have doing just that, if the person being seduced had some sort of religious convictions against such things? Can't think of any cultures off-hand in Faerūn, but that doesn't mean there wouldn't be any elsewhere (perhaps Zakhara, or Kara-Tur). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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ErinMEvans
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 01:31:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Shadowflame
Sexy devils sound great. Sexy demons too.
There's something so fascinating about the dark gentleman who waits in the night, offering all kinds of promises... ruin held behind the tempting words, but you are so much smarter than all those fools entrapped before, aren't you? At least, so he'll lead you to believe...
Oh, wait, everyone thus far in this thread is fixated upon girl-sexy. Bah. For those who aren't, there's a book called 'Angel of Ruin' which details just such a creature as an antagonist of the novel.
EDIT: ...Huh, this is post number 69 for me. *gutter-minded snickering* I couldn't have used it on a better topic if I'd tried...
For the record, I'd say Brimstone Angels has both girl-sexy and boy-sexy devils happening. Gutter minds for all!
As far as the question of the lawfulness of lust, while it's possible they concept isn't lawful, I think there are definitely more lawful ways to manipulate and exploit other people's lusts. You're not driving people wild and making them do rash things in that wildness so much as you're setting up a system of exchange (e.g. I, sexy devil lady, will gladly perform that deviant act. First, you need to corrupt some people though). At least that's how I handled it (I hope that makes sense).
My main erinyes character has 75 kids and this is the sort of system I imagined her dallying in to get there.
EDIT: Man, I am bad at checking dates on posts...Hope this isn't too old. |
www.slushlush.com |
Edited by - ErinMEvans on 20 Jan 2012 01:33:15 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 02:21:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Shadowflame
Oh, wait, everyone thus far in this thread is fixated upon girl-sexy.
Nope, not all. And I'm not interested in male devils either. But I find them very useful in fiction.
Heh. I'm recalling a scene I wrote in "The Greater Treasure," my story in Realms of the Elves, which I had to edit down to get below an R-rating. And I mean, it was about Graz'zt, so duh, of course it was hot.
And yes, so very, very useful.
Also, on that note . . . NDA.
Cheers
Ah. But it's not the kind of usefulness I was referring to. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
573 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 02:36:36
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I've always thought that our heavily militarized and single minded D&D Devils are a little too monolithic and simplistic.
I don't see any reason why there couldn't be a sect of devils that have given up overt diabolic activities in favor of more subtle manipulations. The patroness could certainly be Lilith, but I would imagine that she would be inclined to masquerade behind an assumed identity. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 14:37:43
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quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
I've always thought that our heavily militarized and single minded D&D Devils are a little too monolithic and simplistic.
Asmodeus and Mephistopheles do not strike me as such. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Sexy devils?
