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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 18:50:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
I never realised that our earth has had visitors from the realms.
Oh, you bet! Elminster, for sure, perhaps others. Elminster is likely the one who has introduced such interesting concepts to the Realms as sterilized chirurgy instruments, boiling water before using it in drinks, and basically anything anyone on Earth takes for granted as a matter of basic education. And this is where he learned it. Along with how to fix lasagna, amongst other things.
The priests of Gond have 'invented' a wonderful new doohickey - heavy lifting cranes at seaports! El has been heard to mutter he knows exactly where they got the idea, implying he's not the only one. And if you take 'Mages Three' at face value, he's likely been to both Greyhawk and Krynn (and in one of these installments, it is implied the Simbul has been to Earth, as well). My impression is that there have been more than a few visitors from the Realms through the eons. |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 22:57:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
I never realised that our earth has had visitors from the realms.
Oh, you bet! Elminster, for sure, perhaps others. Elminster is likely the one who has introduced such interesting concepts to the Realms as sterilized chirurgy instruments, boiling water before using it in drinks, and basically anything anyone on Earth takes for granted as a matter of basic education. And this is where he learned it. Along with how to fix lasagna, amongst other things.
The priests of Gond have 'invented' a wonderful new doohickey - heavy lifting cranes at seaports! El has been heard to mutter he knows exactly where they got the idea, implying he's not the only one. And if you take 'Mages Three' at face value, he's likely been to both Greyhawk and Krynn (and in one of these installments, it is implied the Simbul has been to Earth, as well). My impression is that there have been more than a few visitors from the Realms through the eons.
I don't like the idea myself. FR is a fantasy setting, to try to link it to our world is just ridiculous. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2011 : 00:45:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
I never realised that our earth has had visitors from the realms.
Well, as Ed once said, "This, by the way, is where the Forgotten part of Forgotten Realms came from: we people of real-world Earth have forgotten the once-widely-used gates to Toril, which gave us our legends of vampires, dragons, et al."
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2011 : 03:53:23
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I'm inclined to agree with Arcanus.
Ed did that again in his Falconfar Saga. Perhaps I wouldn't have minded, except that the story itself was...disappointing.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2011 : 14:18:24
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quote:
Originally posted by ArcanusI don't like the idea myself. FR is a fantasy setting, to try to link it to our world is just ridiculous.
Not a Harry Potter fan are you? 
As Ed has said, the Forgotten Realms was linked to Earth from its conception--so much so that those links are memorialized in the very name of the setting. That's what I'd call a feature, not a bug.
The good thing is that it's a subtle feature, one that folks can ignore if they like. But I've always been kinda fascinated by the links between Earth and Toril: the way that peoples have been abducted from Earth or just wandered in somehow, the few Earth gods that have crossed over and established themselves in the Faerūnean pantheon, etc.
I know it particularly irked George Krashos that the Giant language in the Giantcraft sourcebook was some kind of variant of Danish. But my take on that is that maybe Germanic languages are a variant of the Giant tongue, influenced by their interactions with the Jotuns of Norse myth who came from Faerūn. Heck, maybe the Teutons had their origins on Toril as human slaves of giants, and escaped to Earth via portal. No reason the cross cultural influences can't travel both ways. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2011 : 05:24:51
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I'm a Harry Potter fan. But that doesn't mean I would like all fantasy novels to be set in or have close ties with Earth. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2011 : 22:56:26
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Conan and Elric of Melibonea BOTH take place in a very distant Earth's past. Dying Earth, Empire of the East and Book of the New Sun all take place in very distant futures (so much so, they appear to be fantasy settings). The Wheel of Time is as well, but much better hidden (and because of the cyclic nature of the theme, could just as easily be in some inconceivably distant past).
A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court was written by one of America's most noteworthy authors; The Chronicles of Narnia by another. Tolkien's stories take place in Middle-Earth, which is based on Midgard - the EARTH of the Norse Mythos... ALL fantasy is based on RW mythology and folklore.
How much more connected to Earth can you get? Fantasy is about our world - always has been. The very first D&D story ever written (by Andre Norton, no less) was Quag Keep, and was about gamers from our world travelling to Greyhawk. We can't get away from it - even when the line isn't crossed, it is still there.
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I know it particularly irked George Krashos that the Giant language in the Giantcraft sourcebook was some kind of variant of Danish. But my take on that is that maybe Germanic languages are a variant of the Giant tongue, influenced by their interactions with the Jotuns of Norse myth who came from Faerūn. Heck, maybe the Teutons had their origins on Toril as human slaves of giants, and escaped to Earth via portal. No reason the cross cultural influences can't travel both ways.
I see that sometimes you come around to the "all came from one" train of thought.
To my way of thinking, it doesn't matter in which direction cross-pollination took place, because all things have a common origin. Things did not originate on Toril or on Earth, but somewhere else, and spread outward from there.
And somehow, when we cross planer (quantum?) boundaries, certain things are 'corrected' in regards to the individual and the world they are now on, like what deity answers their prayers, the 'common tongue' they speak, and how their magic works ( abig deal when you think about why Realms Mages are able to still cast spells on non-Weave worlds). In an almost 'Elric-like' way (Eternal Champion concept), each of us has a counterpart elsewhere, even if that counterpart never got to live in that setting. We take the place of the 'us' that might have been, had we been from that world.
At least, that's the story I'm sticking to. 
And now I am thinking about Marvel Comics Council of Cross-Time Kangs (one of my favorite story-lines), and the episode of ST:tNG entitled Parallels - the one that ends with lots and LOTS of Enterprises (also one of my favorites). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Nov 2011 23:51:23 |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2011 : 01:00:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Conan and Elric of Melibonea BOTH take place in a very distant Earth's past. Dying Earth, Empire of the East and Book of the New Sun all take place in very distant futures (so much so, they appear to be fantasy settings). The Wheel of Time is as well, but much better hidden (and because of the cyclic nature of the theme, could just as easily be in some inconceivably distant past).
A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court was written by one of America's most noteworthy authors; The Chronicles of Narnia by another. Tolkien's stories take place in Middle-Earth, which is based on Midgard - the EARTH of the Norse Mythos... ALL fantasy is based on RW mythology and folklore.
How much more connected to Earth can you get? Fantasy is about our world - always has been. The very first D&D story ever written (by Andre Norton, no less) was Quag Keep, and was about gamers from our world travelling to Greyhawk. We can't get away from it - even when the line isn't crossed, it is still there.
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I know it particularly irked George Krashos that the Giant language in the Giantcraft sourcebook was some kind of variant of Danish. But my take on that is that maybe Germanic languages are a variant of the Giant tongue, influenced by their interactions with the Jotuns of Norse myth who came from Faerūn. Heck, maybe the Teutons had their origins on Toril as human slaves of giants, and escaped to Earth via portal. No reason the cross cultural influences can't travel both ways.
I see that sometimes you come around to the "all came from one" train of thought.
To my way of thinking, it doesn't matter in which direction cross-pollination took place, because all things have a common origin. Things did not originate on Toril or on Earth, but somewhere else, and spread outward from there.
And somehow, when we cross planer (quantum?) boundaries, certain things are 'corrected' in regards to the individual and the world they are now on, like what deity answers their prayers, the 'common tongue' they speak, and how their magic works ( abig deal when you think about why Realms Mages are able to still cast spells on non-Weave worlds). In an almost 'Elric-like' way (Eternal Champion concept), each of us has a counterpart elsewhere, even if that counterpart never got to live in that setting. We take the place of the 'us' that might have been, had we been from that world.
At least, that's the story I'm sticking to.
And now I am thinking about Marvel Comics Council of Cross-Time Kangs (one of my favorite story-lines), and the episode of ST:tNG entitled Parallels - the one that ends with lots and LOTS of Enterprises (also one of my favorites).
Despite the "every thing that could happen has happened somewhere" idea, I still find it dumb to have purely fictional characters come to 'our world'.
Yes, much of fantasy is inspired by our own myths and legends, just as much of it isn't. To say that all fantasy is about our world is imo ludicrous.
And I hate the Harry Potter films/books. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2011 : 06:27:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I see that sometimes you come around to the "all came from one" train of thought.
I know you are only joking, but just to be clear: you have mischaracterized my position. This is not in the "all came from one" vein. I was merely pointing out that, if Toril has links to Earth (well, D&D Earth), and if Faerūn has been influenced by Earth through the migration of Earth folk and gods to Toril, well then, it only stands to reason that Toril may have influenced Earth in a similar way. Surely it's not just a one-way-street?
One possible piece of evidence for this could be that the Giant tongue looks similar to Danish, or possibly old Norse. George Krashos thought that was just sloppy writing/design on the part of the author of that sourcebook. But since it's canon, I thought that a fun way to think of that lore in a way that makes it seem less silly would be to postulate that giant folk of Toril interacted with the early Germanic peoples of Earth through ancient portals or rifts influencing their language and their mythology.
We know that the Norse pantheon is full of tales of frost giants and fire giants, including the giant gods Thrym and Surtr. You could probably work in a Tyr connection somewhere too. If it turned out that the early Teutons were once giant slaves that escaped from Toril to Earth, it could explain some things and serve as an example of an instance where Toril influenced Earth culture and history.
Oh, and ą propos of the other thing, I just thought of 2 more fantasy franchises that are set in a post-apocalyptic earth: The Shannara books and the Ralph Bakshi film Wizards. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2011 : 23:58:46
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I had another long post here, with all sorts of Wiki-links to support my argument about convergent evolution (as opposed to parallel), but I realize that we are really just splitting hairs here. You and I are on the same page 95% of the time. I think the only point we really disagree on is that I feel there was a single, common source for everything, and you believe there were multiple sources - one for each single thing. On the whole planer cross-pollination thing we are in complete agreement.
@Arcanus - I agree the whole 'You got Earth in my fantasy" plot is over-used, but so much so its considered a major trope of the genre. I don't like to see it everywhere, and I really don't want to see earth heroes stalking the Realms (Ed never did answer my question about that... hmmmm...), but its been done often, from the very first D&D novel (and cartoon series), to Thomas Covenent in The Land.
I may be a bit defensive on this point because I am biased - the fantasy trilogy I have planned (thus far only in my mind) is of the 'Connecticut Yankee' variety (not to mention the 'alternate history' model as well). I think if the entire story/setting revolves around the plot-feature, then it can be quite good. In the case of FR and other settings, that may be a stretch (since FR wasn't designed for Earthers to invade originally), and I would agree with you. Its a case-by-case basis, I think. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Nov 2011 00:07:22 |
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The Mulhorandi Pantheon: Where are they now?
