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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Mar 2011 : 17:02:55
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| Probably is a "who" then...the Magic Eaters don't strike me as ones leading orcs... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2011 : 19:53:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Asharak
Occidian is sacked by an orcs horde lead by an hakeashar circa -24400 DR...
I checked over the internet, and it was Haeshkarr indeed leading the orcs. And this demon was a servant of Lolth. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2011 : 00:47:54
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The forword in Powers and Pantheons sheds some light on the canon timeline of when certain races entered Fearun.
First there were the creator races, then dwarves, treans, elves and illithid found their way to Toril, deviding the dwindling dragon dominated surface areas into stable race dominated 'districts'. After the bulk of warring with dragons was past new races found a foothold; halflings, gnomes and merfolk first followed by tritons, 'giantkin' (ogres and trolls most likely) and titans. The latter began warring the dragons head-on.
'Much later' (according to P&P) the goblinkin found entrance to the Realms, who began eeking out territories that were left unused by the already present demi-human races or areas that were devestated by draconic purges or titanic warmongery. After this and during the waning of draconic empires and the establishment of giant kingdoms, advances in magical knowledge opened many portals to other worlds and a meriad of creatures found a home on Fearun (beholders, centaurs, satyrs, wemics, lesser dragonkin, leucrotta and others).
I think the 'much later' means that goblinkin arrived on Toril during the later ages of the "Dawn Ages" (i.e. 30 000 to 24 000 DR), wich would coincide with 25 000 till 24 000 years before Dale Reckoning.
So Goblinkin have had plenty of time to establish a lush culture on Fearun still, and can be counted to be among the more important races to shape Torils history.
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Andrekan
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2011 : 03:50:22
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This information is not from The Realms but it may help in determining with some historical or literary references.
The first part of this is referring to Middle Earths Origin of Orcs because I see J.R.R. Tolkien as a Strong Source for Dungeons and Dragons type material.
In Tolkiens The Silmarillion Pg.50 Melkor, who was a Fallen Rebellious Valar. This Melkor made disharmony among the Valar and was cast out. Once the Eldar (Elves) came into being, they had separate Nations or Kindreds. Melkor made troubles for them and they made war with the Evil Melkor.
Melkor captured a group of the Eldar who were unhappy (He lured them in with a magic). The Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor were broken, and by the slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved. Thus Melkor bred the hideous race of Orcs, in envy and mockery of the elves.
In The Hobbit the characters come in contact with goblins described as shorter a version of Orcs. This makes me wonder if the goblins were a mockery made of dwarves and gnomes.
The historic reference for Orcs comes from the Roman mythology Orcus, his demons were flesh eaters called Orc, Ork, etc
There was one reference in Wikipedia about the Lord of Goblins that refers to Planescape. Here's the section below.
According to the Planescape supplement, "On Hallowed Ground," Maglubiyet had two sons who served as his lieutenants. However, in the paranoid fashion of D&D goblins, he decided that they were a threat. To get rid of them he sent them on suicide missions against the orcs and dwarves until they were slain.
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"Those two talk only of drink, riches, women, brawling, and magic, so ye've a one in five chance..." Quote from "Elminster in Hell" |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2011 : 19:08:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Andrekan
The first part of this is referring to Middle Earths Origin of Orcs because I see J.R.R. Tolkien as a Strong Source for Dungeons and Dragons type material.
Funny that you brought it. I recently read a really old Dragon Magazine article (by Gary Gygax, I think) stating that Tolkien's literature was a minor influence in the development of D&D. In that article, he cited at least half a dozen different references, including Conan, as being more important than Middle Earth.  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 25 Mar 2011 10:56:18 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2011 : 19:18:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It seems unlikely the orcish pantheon would have been responsible, because it is canon that the Orcish pantheon only entered Realmspace during the Orcgate Wars.
Long before that there were orcs in the Realms. They were present in very ancient times, when Lolth were still known as Araushnee and invited Malar to join the Anti-Seldarine and strike Corellon Larethian when he was weakened after one of his battles against Grummsh. The orcs then witnessed the Beastlord defeating and absorbing Herne, as it is written in Evermeet: Island of Elves. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Andrekan
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2011 : 00:58:06
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I prefer Robert E. Howard's Conan myself, over Tolkien. Howard captures the mystery, exploration, and freedom of adventure, where as Tolkien's work embraces the Fairy type origins.
I was just doing some deep searches outside the Realms or Dungeons and Dragons for any origin myths. There are a lot of references to dwarves, gnomes, and kobolds when searching the myth's surrounding Goblins. |
"Those two talk only of drink, riches, women, brawling, and magic, so ye've a one in five chance..." Quote from "Elminster in Hell" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2011 : 23:50:11
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I didn't know which goblin thread to post this in, so I'll just stick it here - just found some evidence of Hobgoblin/Ogre groups working together in the Firesteap Mts (north side of the range).
That info can be found on pg.176 of 3eSS.
quote:
Originally posted by Andrekan
I prefer Robert E. Howard's Conan myself, over Tolkien. Howard captures the mystery, exploration, and freedom of adventure, where as Tolkien's work embraces the Fairy type origins.
I just smoosh it all together and make it work. 
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It seems unlikely the orcish pantheon would have been responsible, because it is canon that the Orcish pantheon only entered Realmspace during the Orcgate Wars.
Long before that there were orcs in the Realms. They were present in very ancient times, when Lolth were still known as Araushnee and invited Malar to join the Anti-Seldarine and strike Corellon Larethian when he was weakened after one of his battles against Grummsh. The orcs then witnessed the Beastlord defeating and absorbing Herne, as it is written in Evermeet: Island of Elves.
I've been down this road before, with Lord_Karsus/Dagnirion, and many others, on several occasions.
That scene DID NOT take place in Realmspace. It NEVER specifies where Lolth found the two fighting, and most readers assume it is Toril.
But its NOT - later in the book Lolth 'discovers' Toril for the first time, after following that elf girl who challenged kiaransalle back to her homeworld. There she discovers dark elves (like her) and takes an interest in Ka'Narlist (sp?)
She was UNAWARE of the existence of Toril until that point in the novel, ergo the battle between Malar and Herne did not take place in Realmspace. It was on some random prime world.
Also, as further evidence, humans are aware of Herne - he is worshiped by some Orc tribes, and there is a forest named after him on the border of Zakhara (so he couldn't have 'died' in Realmspace before humans rose to civilization). Herne was destroyed in Realmspace as well, but at a later time; obviously Malar likes to track down and kill all the aspects of Herne on every world he is interested (because both are powerful, multi-spheric deities with similar portfolios).
The battle may have also taken place in the Outer Planes, in a region like the Beastlands, which may be what Elaine had in-mind (since she wrote the scene knowing Herne was dead in FR, so she gave that piece of lore a nod in her book).
EDIT: All things considered, and given the plethora of new information we have about those 'early times', it actually IS possible it could have been Abeir-Toril, and Lolth simply did not recognize it the second time (because it was physically a different world at that point). That may be the simplest answer, in hindsight. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Apr 2011 00:06:33 |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2011 : 01:34:12
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@markus:
Sorry ofr asking, but what is the SS abbrevation standinfg for? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2011 : 05:32:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I've been down this road before, with Lord_Karsus/Dagnirion, and many others, on several occasions.
That scene DID NOT take place in Realmspace. It NEVER specifies where Lolth found the two fighting, and most readers assume it is Toril.
-A little bit of thread necromancy here, but I don't ever recall ever claiming that it did. That wouldn't make sense, that it took place in the "godly realms" of Realmspace, since Araushnee didn't even know about Realmspace's existence until -24,400 DR, when Kethryllia Ammarillis entered into the Abyss from Realmspace to fight Haeshkarr. That Araushnee was cast from the Seldarine, we know that that did indeed happen, in -30,000 DR, but where that happened, we don't know. Given that early Elven history is one of my favorite parts of Elven history, I would expect more from me. It's included in TGHotR as a fact, so we know it happened (though, possibly not as the myth in Danillo's writing says), but we don't know where. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 13 Jun 2011 05:35:04 |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2011 : 08:01:09
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| @ sage: thx for this, guessed so but was not sure at all . |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2011 : 21:29:15
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@markus:
where do you take the evidence that the Hobgoblins are cooperating with the ogres in this mountain range?? All I could find in the entry was, that there are hobgoblins and ogres existing, which both raid caravans nearby. the cooperation hint I missed I think.
Any hint where it is? |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 16:16:23
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The short story 'Vision', by Robert E. Moore, to be found in 'Realms of Infamy' is easily the coolest origin story for goblins I've seen.
Now, the only thing that can be established as canon from the story, of course, is that a goblin shaman who is believed to be a seer by his fellow goblins apparently genuinely believes in it.
But I'd like it if this story, too, could be 'true from a point of view'. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 18:23:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
(...)
That scene DID NOT take place in Realmspace. It NEVER specifies where Lolth found the two fighting, and most readers assume it is Toril.
But its NOT - later in the book Lolth 'discovers' Toril for the first time, after following that elf girl who challenged kiaransalle back to her homeworld. There she discovers dark elves (like her) and takes an interest in Ka'Narlist (sp?)
She was UNAWARE of the existence of Toril until that point in the novel, ergo the battle between Malar and Herne did not take place in Realmspace. It was on some random prime world.
(...)
Markustay, I've read and re-read the book. The world is not specified, that's true, but there are strong hints that it can be in the Realms. The weave is quite strong there, and Araushnee haven't even felt - was anaware of - the presence of elves in the world's forests. Maybe they could green elves from the first migration of elves from Faerie to Toril. The book says a member of the Seldarine should feel them, and Araushnee was a member of the pantheon. But there are references of the first migration that say that those green elves revered Titania and the Seelie Court, so maybe this was the reason why she couldn't perceive them. And at first, Araushnee was so involved in her plan that she didn't give any attention to this world or to the elves there (maybe because they weren't dark elves, or because they were not Corellon worshippers, and so they were not her enemies).
After her fall as Lolth, she spends some time as a demon queen before she realizes that, like Malar, she could start gathering worshipers. Then she (re?)discovers Toril, with Corellon followers upon which she wants to exact her revenge, and the potential dark elven worshippers. Nothing says she even tried to recognize the place, maybe she just didn't care. She simply starts paying attention to it, because from then on it suits her needs.
Also, the 2e Faiths & Avatar says that Malar "did challenge and defeat Herne, a corrupted incarnation of the Master of the Hunt brought to the Realms by an ancient wave of immigrants along with Oghma and other powers", and that "Herne was venerated by the orcs of the High Forest, and Malar since assumed his portpholio". The book doesn't says that the battle was in Toril, it's true, but the battle between Herne and Malar in Evermeet occurs on a forest on that strong magic world, above a warband of orc followers of the previous Horned god. And the place in the Realms where the Beastlord is more seen as the Horned Lord is in the High Forest (there is even a tribe of orcs with this name, "Horned Lord", as one can see in The North 2e boxed set). Finally, Malar affirms that the orcs that witnessed the fight would follow him from then on, that's why it is important that they see the outcome of the battle.
Well, this will not necessarily and definitively answer the question about the origin of orcs in the Realms, but will open a possibility about a time in which they could already be there, some millenia before the Occidian attack.
EDIT: Well, in this response I'm not considering the Abeir vs. Toril theory because it was written years AFTER Evermeet, Faiths & Avatars and The North, and I'm kinda trying to see if the idea of the world being the same was there originally. And Icelander, I've read this story in Realms of Infamy, it doesn't even hint when that migration could have happened, right? Any clues? I think I'll read it again...
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"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 02 Mar 2012 19:47:20 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 21:40:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I've been down this road before, with Lord_Karsus/Dagnirion, and many others, on several occasions...
-I wouldn't claim that; It is implicitly clear that that scene does not take place in Realmspace. Lolth did not know of Realmspace until -24,4000 DR, long after said alliance with Malar, which sometime before circa -30,000 DR. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 02 Mar 2012 21:41:30 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 01:47:24
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I am sure Elaine left it ambiguous for a reason (we could just ask her), but in hindsight, with the newer 4e lore, it could have been a pre-sundered Abeir-Toril, since two completely different worlds were created from the one, she would not have recognized it many millenia later (although deities should have senses that go beyond normal vision, like seeing patterns of energy, but whatever).
I didn't say it wasn't Toril - I said it never specifically says it is, and many readers do assume it is.
What I think is that Orcs always existed in Toril - I think there was a group that came over with the first Elves, before the Eladrin and the fall of Tintageer. My own thoughts on the Elves and Orcs are very Tolkienesque, although more based upon RW folklore and mixed with FR/D&D lore. This is it in a nutshell:
Fey/Elven Timeline
1) Fey, along with the other four Creatori (Creator Races) live on the first world (Abeir-Toril).
2) Catastrophe Strikes - The Godswar occurs and the world is plunged into darkness. To survive, the Fey create their own demiplane (Faerie) and flee to the Feywild. Some Archfey choose to stay behind and anchor themselves to the Prime Material in order to draw upon its energies to insure their own survival. Death (mortality) is brought into the universe.
3) The offspring born to the Fey that fled the Sundered world are now mortal, although still very long-lived (1000 years+). In the Fey language they are simply called 'El' (children).
4) The terms 'Seelie' (behaved) and Unseelie (lack of structure) come into vogue amongst the Fey. These are very loose interpretations - 'Seelie' means multiple things at once, but in-general it translates to "behaving yourself in such a way as to not cause others unnecessary duress, and to not do harm to others or their property, unless threatened". It is more of a political distinction, with some (Unseelie) embracing their 'inner chaos' to such an extreme as to have no regard for the safety of other beings or even nature itself (which Fey call 'the Balance').
5) Several groups of El rebel against their Fey rulers - some (the Unseelie) against the rules themselves, but others simply to support their 'persecuted' cousins (these neutrals are sometimes called 'the Twilight Court'). The fey call those that leave to found their on kingdoms the El'adrin (wayward children).
6) Two 'High kings' emerge from the group that leaves - Gru-Maas, Prince of the Unseelie Fey, and Cor Ellion (son of Frey Ellion, of the Vanir; 'Cor' = Lord in Sylvan). Together, the two half-brothers found Tintageer, an island Kingdom off the coast of Faerie
7) The two Kings have a falling-out - some say over a female - and Gru-Maas (wild spirit) leads his people from the Feywild (along with dozens of sub-chieftans, later to become the other goblin and Orc deities). Many Prime Worlds are colonized by Orcs and Goblinoids at this time. Following this confrontation, the normally flighty fey are polarized into two camps, and deep resentment eventually leads to bitter hatred. This near-fanatical devotion to both groups and their leaders causes a gradual ascendance of the Elven and Orc/Goblin powers.
8) Titania foresees the destruction of her wayward children and their lands, and orders the El'ves (loyal children) to go forth and prepare the way for "those who will follow". Elves leave Faerie and establish new homes on hundreds of worlds, carving-out kingdoms for themselves. Among them are the Unseelie fey (Goblnoids) who stayed loyal to the Fey Court, including many tribes of Ondonti (fey Orcs). Primitive humans would come to call these two groups the sylvan (green) elves and goblin (ugly) elves, later simply shortened to 'elves' and 'goblins'.
9) Following the colonization of the Prime by the Elves, the events of the Seldarine war with other deities (detailed in Evermeet: Island of Elves) unfolds, and Gru-Maas (now Gruumsh) is badly wounded by Corellon. He flees back to the Orc Homeworld (Draenor) to rebuild and launch invasions of other prime-worlds from there.
10) Because of powerful (and uncontrollable) magics unleashed, the Isle of Tintageer (in the Feywild) begins to sink. The conflict that led-up to the disaster was long and brutal, and many, many Eladrin are able to open portals to other worlds and escape. The final group, lead by King Durothil, managed to open a gate to Toril just before the Isle sank beneath the waves. This was the coming of the Gray Elves (Eladrin) to Faerun.
11) The Eladrin perform a High Magic Ritual which "reaches backwards and forwards in time", creating the isle Evermeet in Toril's past.
12) Gruumsh leads a huge army of Gobinoids to Toril to destroy the followers of Corellon (the Battle of God's Theater), but two separate armies of elves temporarily unite to destroy their ancient enemies. Gruumsh's army is annihilated (some say most of the Goblinoids fled the field), and he returns to his own world to plan anew. It will be many centuries before he is able to return, because the Imaskari erect the Godwall.
13) The Godwall is weakened when Mulan powers find a way to circumnavigate its restrictions. Still annoyed by his previous Torillian defeat, Gruumsh chooses to lead an army composed entirely of Orcs into Faerun, and the Orcgate Wars begin.
14) Gruumsh kills Re, wins the Orcgate Wars, and establishes the Orcish Pantheon's permanency in Realmspace. The Goblin Powers were established earlier during the first invasion of Toril.
__________________________________________________________________
Ergo, we have some orcs and goblnoids present on Toril since the Elves first arrived (and these have always been peaceful and have gotten along well with their neighbors). We have a second wave during the Crown Wars, which was mostly repelled, but the Goblins were able to establish themselves (thus explaining things like the Grodd goblins). Lastly, we have the Orc pantheon arriving in-force and establishing themselves in the Realms during the Orcgate Wars.
That is the highly abridged version, but at least it establishes an order-of-events, as I see it (in other words, not 100% canon, but heavily based on it). All natural (Feywild) fey can change their shape and size at-will (expending some energy to do so), but become 'locked-in' to these forms when they cannot easily replenish their fey energy (which comes from the Feywild itself). Unseelie fey often take monstrous forms, simply because they find them amusing (in order to scare folk). Gru-Mass, the King of the Unseelie fey after the fall of his father Malkith ('dark blood'), enjoyed taking the form of an enormous cyclops in his early years - a form he is still favors and is often depicted in.
@LK - I remember this being bounced-around on the Elves thread (yours), but I don't quite recall everyone's stance on the matter. Our main point of contention was about K'narlist - I didn't think he was all that important, when the novel was written. Obviously some designer felt as you did, and made him 'High King of all the Ilythiir' (which I still think is a HUGE leap from what the novel actually says) in the GHotR.
Damn shame, because now I have to think the designers are just as misinformed.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Mar 2012 21:22:06 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2012 : 00:12:43
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This timeline is brilliant, Mark! Do you have a more detailed version? And have you incorporated the Malkith/Malkizid equivalence we discussed elsewhere? I really think this stuff needs to be made canon for the new edition... calling all CK-frequenting designers! We have a winner here!
Right now, I'm going to do some Googling on a related matter...
I'm back... interesting... apparently there was a Magister named Malkith... this is most definitely a coincidence. 
quote:
Malkith Undree
"the Smiling Cat"
Magister from 298 DR to 302 DR
Edit: All the same, he wasn't a nice guy, rather like our friend Malkith / Malkizid. He was one of the most widely reviled Magisters in history, and his tower was in the Starspire Mountains, until it was blown apart by a magical contingency when adventurers tried to loot it. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 04 Mar 2012 00:33:59 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 07:17:58
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Mal - 'Dark' in Hamarfae (brooding, evil, or just the absence of light)
kith = 'blood', and can be used to mean either "of the blood" (kindred), or the actual bodily fluid ("His Kith did run from his wounds like a font")
Kizid - This is almost considered a profanity: It is similar to kith, but an elf would almost spit when they say it. It means something akin to the human phrase 'bad seed', or 'black sheep of the family', but much, MUCH worse. It is a relation that everyone is ashamed to talk about.
There is also the prefix 'Ba', which means 'tainted'. Hence, the ancient name for celestials was Tezu, and 'fallen angels' became know as "Ba'Tezu". The original (Creator) race of amphibians was similarly called 'Trachi' ("three-worlds") - the fey/elven word for amphibians. When they became shapeshifters through some pervesion of magic, they became known as the "Ba'Trachi". It simply indicates something going 'bad'. For example, the Elven word for apple is Affa, and if one were to go rotten, it would be a Ba'Affa.
'ri' is prefix that means 'corruption'. This is much worse then 'Ba', in that it isn't just an internal change, but rather, something so unnatural (pure chaos) that changes a creature's form to something unwholesome. The original (celestial) name for Elementals was Tanar, but the ones that became corrupted were known as the Tanar'ri. By the same token, 'Baen' means something like 'Faithful' in Hamarfae (Bae = power), but if you add the 'ri' suffix you get Baen'ri - a group of people who follow the corrupted form of the Elven Faith (the anti-Seldarine). Obviously, Drow would think corruption (chaos) a good thing.
I think folks remember the 'zt' suffix I crated int he other thread - it means "clever traitor" (seen in both Graz'zt and Driz'zt). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Mar 2012 07:33:22 |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 09:32:10
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Interesting that in Pathfinder, elves from the planet Castrovel have an ancient city called El.
Tough I don't think that languages work that way. |
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Edited by - Marc on 05 Mar 2012 09:32:29 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 11:07:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I am sure Elaine left it ambiguous for a reason (we could just ask her), but in hindsight, with the newer 4e lore, it could have been a pre-sundered Abeir-Toril, since two completely different worlds were created from the one, she would not have recognized it many millenia later (although deities should have senses that go beyond normal vision, like seeing patterns of energy, but whatever).
I didn't say it wasn't Toril - I said it never specifically says it is, and many readers do assume it is.
(...)
Well, according to what you wrote in the post I copied, I thought you were strongly declaring it was not in the Realms (well, at least before citing the Abeir vs. Toril matter). And once again, I was telling that I had this idea of interpretation left open - with some good chance of it happening in the Realms - in the ORIGINAL context of the book (i.e., before the Abeir lore).
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
(...)
That scene DID NOT take place in Realmspace. It NEVER specifies where Lolth found the two fighting, and most readers assume it is Toril.
But its NOT - later in the book Lolth 'discovers' Toril for the first time, after following that elf girl who challenged kiaransalle back to her homeworld. There she discovers dark elves (like her) and takes an interest in Ka'Narlist (sp?)
(...)
Anyway, I'm only copying this to show you why I've interpreted the opinion that way, and decided to post the arguments for opening the possibility. Since I saw a first comment in this issue I realized Mrs. Cunningham really left it unsaid. However, since I thought you were fully declaring it was not in the Realms, I've corrected myself by saying it wasn't for sure in Toril, but also wanted to say we can't declare it's not there with all certainty. If this is already your opinion let's forget about it, and let me apologize for any misinterpretation.
EDIT: message format |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 05 Mar 2012 11:23:38 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2388 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 11:27:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
The orcs then witnessed the Beastlord defeating and absorbing Herne, as it is written in Evermeet: Island of Elves.
I've been down this road before, with Lord_Karsus/Dagnirion, and many others, on several occasions.
That scene DID NOT take place in Realmspace. It NEVER specifies where Lolth found the two fighting, and most readers assume it is Toril.
But its NOT - later in the book Lolth 'discovers' Toril for the first time, after following that elf girl who challenged kiaransalle back to her homeworld. There she discovers dark elves (like her) and takes an interest in Ka'Narlist (sp?)
..provided we're unconditionally trusting in lore. More specifically, modern elven lore, on a subject themes related to which elves fail to discuss without jumping up and down and brandishing daggers at each other (Silverfall), as they told it to a curious human (assuming Danilo retold it without extra spins). Correct? 
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
11) The Eladrin perform a High Magic Ritual which "reaches backwards and forwards in time", creating the isle Evermeet in Toril's past.
That's a 4e retcon, or a retcon over those retcons?
Because this used to be very straightforward: elves split a piece off the continent (with all the... attendant consequences), then the main caster was told he's alive and the plan did succeed, though only due to divine intervention. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 15:40:59
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
11) The Eladrin perform a High Magic Ritual which "reaches backwards and forwards in time", creating the isle Evermeet in Toril's past.
That's a 4e retcon, or a retcon over those retcons?
Because this used to be very straightforward: elves split a piece off the continent (with all the... attendant consequences), then the main caster was told he's alive and the plan did succeed, though only due to divine intervention.
Evermeet is a piece of Arvandor brought to Faerūn in a High Magic ritual that makes it be there as it always have been, according to Evermeet: Island of the Elves, still in 2e times. I don't know retcons after, but they may exist.
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"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 05 Mar 2012 15:41:44 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 15:44:17
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Technically, its 3e (although more like 3.75) - Its was in the GHotR.
Considering the book was used as an 'introduction' to 4e (prologue?), a lot of folks might consider it 4e, but technically, no. The GHotR ends in 1385, which is the last official date of the 3e era.
However, the theory that Evermeet was created from Tintageer has been bandied-about nearly since the release of Elaine's novel, and obviously the designers gave that fan-theory a nod (although it is still pretty ambiguous).
@Barastir - Okay, I see what you mean (how could I not?) Sorry for the confusion. I personally don't think it would have happened on Toril, because I would think it was weird for Lolth not to know she was already on a certain planet previously (the text makes it sound like Toril was place she had just discovered). However, it was left open for interpretation, and the whole Abeir/Toril thing really blurs the lines now (since it wasn't the same world regardless)...
Wait a sec!!! 
Didn't K'Narlist get killed by the Sundering? Something doesn't make any sense here. If the ritual reached back into the past (tapping into the earlier planetary sundering), then how was K'Narlist killed by it? The world should have already been changed by the time he arose, or he would have never existed to begin with.
Time paradoxes... *meh*
Anyhow, that means Lolth would have 'discovered' Toril after the first (deific) Sundering, but before the second (Elven) Sundering, so it still works. The change to the world (including mass and size) would have thrown her off.
Now, unless Ao borrowed matter from elsewhere (a destroyed/missing planet?), that means Abeir-Toril was WAY bigger then Earth, since Toril is still slightly larger then Earth. Unfortunately, we have no idea how big Abeir is (or anything else for that matter).
Maybe in 5e they can make Abeir the dwarven Homeworld (from SJ). Then the famous Dwarven battle-cry, "I'm going out for Abeir!" would make more sense.
{That joke will make NO sense to non-English speakers... sorry} |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Mar 2012 15:50:50 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 16:41:29
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I've found this little piece of lore in Evermeet: Island of Elves, something the goddess Angharrad told to Starleaf, the girl who was the center of the ritual that created the Green Isle:
"It is true that Evermeet is in part the result of the magic you and yours tore from the Weave of Life. But that alone would have not availedtoo much of the power of the casting was drawn off by the destruction that resulted. For lack of a better explanation, you might say that Evermeet is a piece of Arvandor, a bridge between the worldsand the combined work of mortal elves and their gods. Do not take too much of the credit upon yourselfand neither should you take all the blame".
However, I think most of the details were really published later. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 05 Mar 2012 16:42:42 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 19:08:19
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Its alluded to, but it has yet to be confirmed the Sundering-Ritual actually caused Tintageer's destruction. It probably did, but maybe its better we never really know for sure?
Like I've said elsewhere, i think 'Elven High Magic' is really powerful fey magic, and the fey seem to have some connection to time - their most powerful dweomers appear to cause massive effects by manipulating past events.
Its actually rather elegant - they can increase the power of their spells exponentially, by tapping into things this way. Much easier to create an island when the entire world is 'in flux', then do it whole cloth with your own energies.
It works like this - suppose a planet had a near-miss with a meteor millenia ago. If the Elven Armada wanted to eradicate the entire world (something they have done, IIRC), they would simply alter past events so that the world would have been in the meteor's path. Thats much easier then trying to blow an entire planet up under your own power.
And thats how I think High magic works - they tap-into the 'Butterfly Effect' (which is also why it is so insanely dangerous to use). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Mar 2012 19:08:51 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 20:17:26
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
That's a 4e retcon, or a retcon over those retcons?
-The date of The Sundering was semi-modified to have been in -17,600 in Lost Empires of Faerūn, after having previously been dated much further in the past- roughly in -24,000 DR, by the anecdotal evidence we have for the era, published first in the online first incarnation of AGHotR. The -17,600 DR date, I still maintain was an error, either an accidental one (as in, typing the wrong numbers in), or an intentional but misguided one (as in, we wrote the correct numbers, but how we arrived there is out of wack), because of all of the anecdotal evidence we had about the early Elven realms of Faerūn between their arrival in Realmspace and the Sundering itself that would seemingly defy believability, to have had nearly 10,000 years pass between the arrival of the Elves and the Sundering. As a result, pseudo-time travel, and whatever stuff that still does not make any sense to me, in the context of The Sundering, was introduced to smooth all of that out. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6647 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 00:13:21
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As I recall, the reason it got that date was because Elaine had mentioned Ilythiir in her "Evermeet" novel as existing before the Sundering and by the timeline in "Cormanthyr", Ilythiir had to be in existence before the Sundering took place. That's why WotC mandated that date. Eric and I pushed hard for -24,000 (or some slight variation of that date) and made various arguments as to why that was appropriate (and the reference to Ilythiir could be explained away) but the editors didn't bite. The elven history section wasn't given to Eric to do and all we could do in the mad rush to deadline was tidy up the edges. Best we could manage was the "forward and backward through time" inclusion to leave us wiggle room later on. Unsatisfactory? You betcha.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2012 : 21:20:00
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| -Is there any particular reason why "they" wanted a date that, at best, was problematic? Especially since the dating of virtually all of that existed in nebulous ether for the most part and very few parts of all of it had been put down in stone. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6647 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 05:12:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Is there any particular reason why "they" wanted a date that, at best, was problematic? Especially since the dating of virtually all of that existed in nebulous ether for the most part and very few parts of all of it had been put down in stone.
None given. We made our submissions to the project head and that was the last we heard till the product hit the shelves.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Goblin Origins
