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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Jul 2010 : 23:39:50
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Clearly I should check back more often... 
The big thing about marriage and the retirement of female characters as a side effect is one that comes from older literature. It's something of a joke that all of Shakespeare's comedies end in wedding bells, the prince rescues the princess and happily ever after ensues. Since it's repeated in stories ad nauseum, it's become an "acceptable" way to end a story, particularly those meant for younger readers (fairy tales especially).
One of the things that I've also noticed is that in the more "classic" fantasy literature, Married females who appear and participate actively in the narrative have frequently been married for a while, have grown children and have garnered some clout for themselves in some area.
Taking these two tidbits into a broader context, the disappearance of a newlywed woman from the narrative seems to indicate that she's supposed to get pregnant and raise children. It also seems like this is a character place that is deemed "not relevant" to older models of fantasy stories. Maybe it's because child rearing isn't exactly the best time to go running off to slay dragons and dupe Zhents.
There are exceptions to the standard though (Kate Elliott's Crossroads Trilogy springs to mind, as does Jim C. Hine's Princess books) and I'm seeing it more occur more frequently in more recent releases (thought it might just be limited to what I've been reading). |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2010 : 14:08:32
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| If we are talking about TSR/WotC novels here the best example of a married adventuring couple and their relationships would probably be in the old Knight of...books by Roland J Green for the Dragonlance line. Strangely enough I think I am the only one who liked those books. Any comments Sage? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2010 : 15:17:22
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| I think the main bias against marriage is the fact that for most, marriage is "settling down". Sure, there's nothing stopping a married couple from continuing to adventure, but for many, marriage is seen as an entirely different kind of adventure: making a quiet, peaceful life and raising a family. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2010 : 15:51:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
If we are talking about TSR/WotC novels here the best example of a married adventuring couple and their relationships would probably be in the old Knight of...books by Roland J Green for the Dragonlance line. Strangely enough I think I am the only one who liked those books. Any comments Sage?
Oh, Knights of the Rose... most definitely. Excellent example, BTW, Jorkens.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2010 : 15:55:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think the main bias against marriage is the fact that for most, marriage is "settling down". Sure, there's nothing stopping a married couple from continuing to adventure, but for many, marriage is seen as an entirely different kind of adventure: making a quiet, peaceful life and raising a family.
Heh. The Lady K and I have tended to approach this subject in a matter that revolves around regarding marriage as "the ultimate adventure." The great "Undiscovered Country" that we, as intrepid explorers, were lucky enough to find and settle first. Sure, we hit some rough territory now and then, but the challenge of exploring something wholesome, virgin, and vast... beckons us forward, with new surprises and new side-quests [as we tend to call them] around each and every corner. And our love for each other has only strengthened because of this exploration. For us, marriage is the ultimate "RPG campaign experience." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 01 Aug 2010 15:57:35 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2010 : 16:06:29
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think the main bias against marriage is the fact that for most, marriage is "settling down". Sure, there's nothing stopping a married couple from continuing to adventure, but for many, marriage is seen as an entirely different kind of adventure: making a quiet, peaceful life and raising a family.
Heh. The Lady K and I have tended to approach this subject in a matter that revolves around regarding marriage as "the ultimate adventure." The great "Undiscovered Country" that we, as intrepid explorers, were lucky enough to find and settle first. Sure, we hit some rough territory now and then, but the challenge of exploring something wholesome, virgin, and vast... beckons us forward, with new surprises and new side-quests [as we tend to call them] around each and every corner. And our love for each other has only strengthened because of this exploration. For us, marriage is the ultimate "RPG campaign experience."
So in that kind of campaign, what happens when you roll a natural 20? |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2010 : 19:29:31
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Sage, that's poetry right there.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
For us, marriage is the ultimate "RPG campaign experience."
So in that kind of campaign, what happens when you roll a natural 20?
Nothing bad, I'll tell you that much--possibly naughty, but not bad.
Cheers
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Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2010 : 21:56:53
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Erik, I have been thinking about your question when something came to mine.
In Ed's replies marriage was never required or expected, An elf could have a consort for 700 years and that was acceptable, perhaps even common. Such relationships did not end adventuring, such couple adventure together and sometimes apart depending on their life goals.
Marriage as end of story most likely is a result of Earthly writers providing their own values on when the story ends. As for FR characters ISTR that Blackstaff married one of the Seven Sisters (Laeral) and their story did not end. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2010 : 22:27:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Erik, I have been thinking about your question when something came to mine.
In Ed's replies marriage was never required or expected, An elf could have a consort for 700 years and that was acceptable, perhaps even common. Such relationships did not end adventuring, such couple adventure together and sometimes apart depending on their life goals.
Marriage as end of story most likely is a result of Earthly writers providing their own values on when the story ends. As for FR characters ISTR that Blackstaff married one of the Seven Sisters (Laeral) and their story did not end.
Their story did not end, true.
But remember, story does not equal marketable novel(s). Yes, Khelben and Laeral's story is a long one, fraught with adventure, heartbreak, searching and love.
But there was only ONE novel written about Khelben, and that ended with his death. And in it, Khelben and Laeral had already been married for years. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2010 : 05:39:15
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This just struck me, so apologies if it's not very eloquent and much too shirt, but...
By the time of Elminster in Hell, the old mage and the Simbul are pretty much de facto married, and that is pretty darn important to the plot. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2010 : 13:32:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
This just struck me, so apologies if it's not very eloquent and much too shirt, but...
By the time of Elminster in Hell, the old mage and the Simbul are pretty much de facto married, and that is pretty darn important to the plot.
Seconded.
@ above: In the Return of the Archmages, we see quite a lot of Khelben/Laeral. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2010 : 06:41:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I would like someone to pull up an example of heroes for whom romance is a significant subplot, they get married (by default, resolving that subplot), and continue to be compelling thereafter as main, central characters of the story. So we can talk about how that was handled and why it worked.
Hey?
Cheers
In FR, I can only think of Shandril and her husband (forgot the name), Mirt and Asper (they got married, right?), and El and the Simbul who may not have made the sacred vow but practically a married couple in essence.
Outside FR, there are a lot....Here are some:
Queen Aglaranna of the elves in Raymond Feist's Riftwar Cycle novels. Though married to a lord, a human and an Ancient One, who is more powerful than she was, she maintained her sovereign and her husband was simply referred as the Consort, not the King.
Queen Betsy in MJ Davidson's Undead series. Despite her marriage, she continues to be a funny, adventurous, annoying (to the pesky vamps), and extraordinarily fun and bubbly queen of the vampires.
Miranda in Feist's novels. Her marriage to the world's greatest sorcerer made her more involved, complex, and adventurous. Her husband didn't dwarf her roles in the books; instead, their marriage made them a formidable duo. (And I don't know why Feist killed her...Maybe he wants his greatest creation, Pug, to end up miserable at the end of the Riftwar Cycle...)
Miranda Priestley in The Devil Wears Prada. A devil I might like for a grandmother  . She's perhaps one of the greatest role models of women's independence (from men and everything).
Bella in the Twilight Saga. Her marriage to Edward was not a conclusion to her vampy adventures; if anything, it made her role in the series shine more, as her powers were eventually revealed. (Though of course, the battle against the Volturi (that never happened) where she could have made good use of her abilities, was such a big disappointment.)
Marriage is never an end, nor a character's doom. In fantasy and all other genre in literature, I think authors have already veered from that ancient belief, and simply look at marriage more as a celebration of the heroes's love. Heh, some even use it to add more complex elements to the characters. Even in my own books, marriage never has become an end nor a hero's doom.
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2010 : 15:33:25
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Thanks for the examples, dennis! (Though we probably could have done without the reminder of the existence of sparkly vampires.  )
In case my own opinion in this thread is unclear, I agree that marriage can and should be used not as an endpoint but as a milestone marker that enhances a character.
Another question, however, to sort of invert the argument: I'm curious as to whether marriage *should* be used as a tool (at least on occasion) to signal the endpoint of an adventurer's career. For example, do you like it when a book/trilogy ends in marriage? If a romance between two characters is an active subplot, then what's wrong with having the end of the series be them finally getting it on . . . er, I mean, getting together.
I'm not saying everytime, or that it should be an assumption--just is it a valid tool?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2010 : 18:09:10
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| I think that in a sense, when you end a story with the victorious male and female leads hooking up, you're giving them a reward for defeating the bad guy. And if the readers like the leads and have been rooting for them, they like that. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2010 : 01:35:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
I think that in a sense, when you end a story with the victorious male and female leads hooking up, you're giving them a reward for defeating the bad guy. And if the readers like the leads and have been rooting for them, they like that.
It is something of a reward... After all the struggle, then the leads can live a life of peace, without all the conflict that got them to that point. The reward for fighting the good fight is to be freed from the need to fight. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2010 : 02:44:30
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A reason to end story with marriage ... while I do not think there should be required things like.
The characters have achieved high level and should retire and marriage is the final goal of both.
A time jump is planned and child(ren)take up adventuring with a true blood line. Short lived human families can have some very long lived friends that would be aided more if the character can say I am the Son of (foo) fro the land of (foo).
When writing a trilogy, the 4th book discussing the honeymoon and or settling into domestic life for some wold not have appeal. There also can be child baring segments should the couple have children. Both however could be dealt with with brief descriptions and time jumps. There is no reason that parents can not adventure with their child.
I might be able to come up with a few other reasons a series should end with marriage, however I can also come up with ways to work around the reasons to end the story. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2010 : 06:20:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Another question, however, to sort of invert the argument: I'm curious as to whether marriage *should* be used as a tool (at least on occasion) to signal the endpoint of an adventurer's career. For example, do you like it when a book/trilogy ends in marriage? If a romance between two characters is an active subplot, then what's wrong with having the end of the series be them finally getting it on . . . er, I mean, getting together.
I'm not saying everytime, or that it should be an assumption--just is it a valid tool?
Cheers
The thing is that "ending with wedding bells" has been used so much and so often that it might have passed beyond the realm of narrative trope and right into cliche territory. From a girl's point of view, it gets downright depressing to be told so repetitively that adventuring ends with wedding bells and babies.
Besides when marriage is used to signal the end of an adventuring career, there's an assumption that leaving the life of running around and killing monsters, robbing despots and overthrowing evil overlords is easy. I find that this rather fails to take into account whatever enemies that a retired adventurer might have left behind and how they might react when they discover that their quarry has children.
There's really no reason the narrative should stop with wedding bells. It just seems that it is far too frequently used as such. Maybe everyone's uncomfortable with the idea of bringing up kids in a nomadic lifestyle or something. |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2010 : 14:48:21
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| Lady Fellshot: Brendan Fraser's third Mummy movie is by no means a classic of the cinema. But one thing I thought it did well was examining and then vehemently rejecting the idea that marriage was or should be the end of the heroes' adventuring careers. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2010 : 21:42:56
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Well said, everyone!
@RLB: The Mummy 2 (Mummy Returns) as well! 
I'm actually planning on a wedding at the end of the trilogy I'm currently outlining . . . but it's not a happily ever after sort of wedding. It really just launches the next trilogy. (Can I ever end a book happily? Hmm . . .)
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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ZeshinX
Learned Scribe
Canada
210 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2010 : 03:42:33
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The television series Dexter is quite an interesting approach to this, given that Dexter is something of an anti-hero.
I can't say anymore for those who may wish to follow the series, since there would be way too many spoilers. |
"...because despite the best advice of those who know what they are talking about, other people insist on doing the most massively stupid things."
-Galen, technomage |
Edited by - ZeshinX on 29 Aug 2010 03:43:10 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2010 : 20:14:57
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Even my editor agreed with me when I treated marriage as sometimes an accessory and often mere celebration, never an end. Marriage as an embarkation of "happily ever after" is better left for fairy tales.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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The Doom of FR Marriage (SPOILERS)
